 No Attributes in the Matrix |
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 Oct 27 2005, 05:19 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 23-October 05 Member No.: 7,882  |
Lets get this straight once and for all.
Attributes are NOT used in the Matrix. :eek: It's all Skill + Program. Right? |
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Oct 27 2005, 05:34 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
Yes and no.
Every matrix action listed in the book uses program+skill, however it does allow for using attribute+skill when controlling devices (p 218) |
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Oct 27 2005, 05:35 PM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Yes (for the most part). SR4 assumes that hacking/interact with the AR or VR Matrix is done through programs (the better the program the better the ability to manipulate the Matrix) and his Skill (representing how well he interacts with those programs). While Atts are no doubt important, they aren't seen as being less relevant than those two.
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Oct 27 2005, 05:37 PM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Which means that by the book you can hack just as well as anyone else with a logic of 1 and no cracking skills at all. Just get some autosofts and let your commlink do whatever.
-Frank |
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Oct 27 2005, 05:44 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Well, there is something to be said for getting an agent and loading it up with your programs, so that it hacks for you.
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Oct 27 2005, 07:10 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 23-October 05 Member No.: 7,882 |
Then my newly created human hacker is knocking his Logic from 7 to 5 and saving 45 Build Points!
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Oct 27 2005, 07:22 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Logic is stilll very important for making, updating, and upgrading every program, your system, firewall, and so on. What self respecting Hacker wouldn't program his own software? Not to mention altering and upgrading hardware.
Logic is simply important in other ways, not very useful in the short run but very useful in the long run. In fact its vital for a focused hacker. 8) |
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Oct 27 2005, 08:14 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
A common house rule is to apparently treat matrix actions like spells. That is, you use Logic + Skill, and your total successes are limited by the rating of the program |
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Oct 27 2005, 08:20 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 23-October 05 Member No.: 7,882 |
There are "common" house rules already? SR4 just came out.
The change you suggest is huge. It is not in any way supported by the written Wireless World rules of SR4. |
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Oct 27 2005, 08:34 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
SR4 has been out on the intarnet in PDF form for about 3 months now. And some of us have too much time on our hands. hell, a few of us have already ported over much of the 3rd edition stuff into SR4, because we can't live without our kid stealth legs or virtuoso metamagic. Still, I suppose it should read "A commonly proposed house rule." It's actually not that big of a change. Anywhere it says roll Skill + Program, instead roll attribute + Skill, sucessess limited to program. Assuming the same skill rating and prgram rating between the two methods, all it means is that you need a decent logic attribute to acheive the same results, and that you cannot succeed well without a good program. Both changes that those who have adopted the rule like, with no weird side effects. And of course it isn't supported by the written wireless rules. Thats what makes it a house rule. |
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Oct 27 2005, 08:34 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
Hence why it's a house rule. Cuz, you know, it's a rule that's used by the house (gaming group) I've seen a few people mention the Hacking = Spellz thang. |
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Oct 27 2005, 08:38 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Heh. It's funny cause he sounds like Skeptic in the books. Plus we keep quoting him. That's funny too. |
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Oct 27 2005, 08:45 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 23-October 05 Member No.: 7,882 |
It certainly is a hit on hackers. Big money for our programs etc, and now we would need a big Build Point Logic att.
I guess you could have a house rule that makes things tougher for the character then what the book says - but why would you want to? |
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Oct 27 2005, 08:54 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Because, in comparison to some other archetypes, Hackers are too easy to make. And because we feel that the idea that a logic 1 hacker should not, under any circumstances, be as good as a logic 6 hacker. Because we dislike the idea that all hackers are script kiddies. I mean, if all hacking is is having a handful of (Inexpensive) programs and 1 or two skills, then it really doesn't cost enough BP in the first place. Compare to it's closest relative, the technomancer. Or to the street sammie, who must get loads of expensive cyber plus a dozen or more skills, plus have good attributes. |
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Oct 27 2005, 08:55 PM
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#15
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Why? Consistancy between different systems in the rules set springs to mind, for one reason.
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Oct 27 2005, 09:49 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 286 Joined: 5-September 05 Member No.: 7,688 |
Another simple house rule you could try, if you don't feel like gutting Hacking with a Magic system rip-off, is to use the Logic attribute as the highest possible rating for programs. Let's say you're simply not intelligent enough to use the program to its maximum potential. It's not terribly accurate (yeah, proficiency and experience will eventually overcome natural talent given time), but it still can represent a maximum potential.
It'd be sort of a double safety-net with a commlink's System score, but it at least encourages (if not demands) hackers to bring their Logic up to 6 to use the best programs. |
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Oct 27 2005, 10:29 PM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Heh. Yeah, there really are common house rules already, and the house rule that hacking uses the spells rules is getting a lot of traction with a lot of people. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the advanced hacking rules in Unwired looked a lot like that.
It's not all bad for hackers to do it that way either. While it means that your hacker needs a logic of at least five, as has been pointed out the electronics expert on the team is going to be called upon to make many logic-based tests anyway, so you probably want a logic of five regardless. And now you don't need all your programs to be rating five either. Most people are going to be rolling 9-12 dice on most important tasks, which means that on average they are looking at 3 or 4 hits. If you can stand getting 3 hits, you can save a fat wad of yen for your starting character. A rating 5 costs over three times what a rating 3 costs - that can be a pretty big deal for the scrimper. --- All in all, the Hacking = Spells Mechanic is both good and bad for player character hackers. But it also makes hackers into a much more irreplaceable member of the team. The basic rules are that you push the big red button that is labeled "Start to Haxxor!" Tha makes the party hacker pretty irrelevent, his mad skillz and experience are pretty much completely useless, if anyone else grabbed his commlink, they'd be just as good. The Hacking = Spells mod gives the Hacker some personal utility, eliminates unnecessary rules exceptions, and provides a solid reason for diversity in program ratings. It seems to be all good for the game. -Frank |
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Oct 27 2005, 10:45 PM
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#18
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Hah! Have you taken a look at the intervals on the extended tests for upgrading/writing programs? It's not physically possible to write your own programs anymore; by the time you upgraded your OS on your own the SOTA will have advanced by two years and you'll be behind the times again. |
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Oct 28 2005, 01:54 AM
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#19
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
allso known as a script kiddie :smokin: |
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Oct 28 2005, 02:02 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
A script kiddie would actually be a person who loaded programs into an agent and let the agent do the work. In my Shadowrun world there is a large group of wanna-be technomancers who call themselves warlocks. They buy highly rated agents and stack them with hacking programs, and refer to them as 'Familiars." Real hackers laugh at them, since a simple spoof command will trash them but good, but they can cause a lot of chaos on their own.
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Oct 28 2005, 07:14 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
hobgoblin stole my words.
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Oct 28 2005, 08:43 PM
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#22
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
But for the programs = skills mod to be a fair correlation, you'd have to rework programs and complex forms to be more like spells, in as much as you choose the rating when you load, max load based on some formula, like System*4 in rating points, max 6. but each form or program you buy is like a spell, where the rating is variable.
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Oct 29 2005, 12:31 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
Why? At the moment, you buy a program, and run it at it's maximum rating. However, when you start running too many programs, you lower your systems response rating, which has the flow on effect of lowering the rating of any programs you're running.
It doesn't need to mimic the magic system, it just needs to fit in with the rest of the unified skill+attribute system |
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Oct 30 2005, 12:15 AM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 28-October 05 Member No.: 7,904 |
Well you can look at it that way or as a GM you could inspire your players slightly away from the Logic 1 hacker - you need not even do it via revised hacking rules. A logic one char is and should always be a bit of an idiot... And why should you ever make it easy for the characters anyway, they are all viel SINless criminals with no morals.... :-] |
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Oct 30 2005, 01:48 AM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 23-October 05 Member No.: 7,882 |
I certainly agree that a Logic 1 hacker would be lame-ass.
But I also think that a 7 Logic is no longer nessasary. 5 will do quite nicely. |
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