Lets get this straight once and for all.

Attributes are NOT used in the Matrix.

It's all Skill + Program.

Right?

Yes and no.

Every matrix action listed in the book uses program+skill, however it does allow for using attribute+skill when controlling devices (p 218)

Yes (for the most part). SR4 assumes that hacking/interact with the AR or VR Matrix is done through programs (the better the program the better the ability to manipulate the Matrix) and his Skill (representing how well he interacts with those programs). While Atts are no doubt important, they aren't seen as being less relevant than those two.

Which means that by the book you can hack just as well as anyone else with a logic of 1 and no cracking skills at all. Just get some autosofts and let your commlink do whatever.

-Frank

Well, there is something to be said for getting an agent and loading it up with your programs, so that it hacks for you.

Then my newly created human hacker is knocking his Logic from 7 to 5 and saving 45 Build Points!

Logic is stilll very important for making, updating, and upgrading every program, your system, firewall, and so on. What self respecting Hacker wouldn't program his own software? Not to mention altering and upgrading hardware.

Logic is simply important in other ways, not very useful in the short run but very useful in the long run. In fact its vital for a focused hacker.

There are "common" house rules already? SR4 just came out.

The change you suggest is huge. It is not in any way supported by the written Wireless World rules of SR4.

It certainly is a hit on hackers. Big money for our programs etc, and now we would need a big Build Point Logic att.

I guess you could have a house rule that makes things tougher for the character then what the book says - but why would you want to?

Why? Consistancy between different systems in the rules set springs to mind, for one reason.

Another simple house rule you could try, if you don't feel like gutting Hacking with a Magic system rip-off, is to use the Logic attribute as the highest possible rating for programs. Let's say you're simply not intelligent enough to use the program to its maximum potential. It's not terribly accurate (yeah, proficiency and experience will eventually overcome natural talent given time), but it still can represent a maximum potential.

It'd be sort of a double safety-net with a commlink's System score, but it at least encourages (if not demands) hackers to bring their Logic up to 6 to use the best programs.

Heh. Yeah, there really are common house rules already, and the house rule that hacking uses the spells rules is getting a lot of traction with a lot of people. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the advanced hacking rules in Unwired looked a lot like that.

It's not all bad for hackers to do it that way either. While it means that your hacker needs a logic of at least five, as has been pointed out the electronics expert on the team is going to be called upon to make many logic-based tests anyway, so you probably want a logic of five regardless. And now you don't need all your programs to be rating five either.

Most people are going to be rolling 9-12 dice on most important tasks, which means that on average they are looking at 3 or 4 hits. If you can stand getting 3 hits, you can save a fat wad of yen for your starting character. A rating 5 costs over three times what a rating 3 costs - that can be a pretty big deal for the scrimper.

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All in all, the Hacking = Spells Mechanic is both good and bad for player character hackers. But it also makes hackers into a much more irreplaceable member of the team. The basic rules are that you push the big red button that is labeled "Start to Haxxor!" Tha makes the party hacker pretty irrelevent, his mad skillz and experience are pretty much completely useless, if anyone else grabbed his commlink, they'd be just as good. The Hacking = Spells mod gives the Hacker some personal utility, eliminates unnecessary rules exceptions, and provides a solid reason for diversity in program ratings. It seems to be all good for the game.

-Frank

A script kiddie would actually be a person who loaded programs into an agent and let the agent do the work. In my Shadowrun world there is a large group of wanna-be technomancers who call themselves warlocks. They buy highly rated agents and stack them with hacking programs, and refer to them as 'Familiars." Real hackers laugh at them, since a simple spoof command will trash them but good, but they can cause a lot of chaos on their own.

hobgoblin stole my words.

But for the programs = skills mod to be a fair correlation, you'd have to rework programs and complex forms to be more like spells, in as much as you choose the rating when you load, max load based on some formula, like System*4 in rating points, max 6. but each form or program you buy is like a spell, where the rating is variable.

Why? At the moment, you buy a program, and run it at it's maximum rating. However, when you start running too many programs, you lower your systems response rating, which has the flow on effect of lowering the rating of any programs you're running.

It doesn't need to mimic the magic system, it just needs to fit in with the rest of the unified skill+attribute system

I certainly agree that a Logic 1 hacker would be lame-ass.

But I also think that a 7 Logic is no longer nessasary.

5 will do quite nicely.

One other house rule idea:

Program+Skill -> Replace Skill with a Hacking/Computer/Cybercombat Rating, equal to (Skill+Logic)/2, rounded up. For simplicity, put the ratings on the commlink section of the character sheet.

Note: Might need a Data Search rating too, though I house rule that the data searches are covered in Computer skill.

A question; It is my understanding that in SR3 Matrix some skills were effectively bypassed when in VR, creating a similar situation (although here you do still have to buy the Skills, which are overall the expensive part in comparison to the Attribute).

I just couldn't bring myself to actually play SR3 Matrix, for other more basic reasons. I'm just curious of others that did play it did you find it was actually an issue when played?

Er, actually in SR3 it was all one skill, Computer. Everything was a Computer roll, augmented by Hacking Pool or Task pool (from encephalons and the like) as appropriate. Programs were used to lower TNs, so you really wanted those as high as possible (which was the main part of the cost of playing a decker back then).

Deckers in SR3 had to have a high Int and high Computer skill, since skills were expensive to raise past their linked attribute and downright impossible to raise beyond twice the linked attribute. Not to mention that Int was factored into Hacking Pool calculations.

So we go from SR3 where the high INT was necessary in two seperate ways, to SR4 where Logic isn't required at all unless the GM wants to get creative with Thresholds.

hey blakkie, is this the thread your looking for?
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=8400

Yes. Thanks, priceless.

Pretty much. Which is why converting a decker/mage character from SR3 is a major pain in the ass; there's practically no synergy anymore.

I'd say something here about the first edition rules that made it prohibitive for a magic user to access the Matrix, but I have a feeling it'd just make me sound like an old crumudgeon.

Quick question: how is Defaulting handled with Matrix Actions?

easy:

if you have no program, you can't perform the action. period.