Firing around corners - Dumpshock Forums

Firing around corners

jklst14 View Member Profile	Feb 5 2006, 01:29 PM Post #1
CosaNostra Deliverator Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 346 Joined: 29-January 05 From: Philadelphia, PA Member No.: 7,034	The rulebook mentions that a smartlinked weapon is equiped with a camera and can be fired around corners (p. 312) and that a smart firing platform with a smartlinked weapon can be fired remotely (p. 311). Are there any specific modifiers for doing either of these actions? I've looked around and haven't found any yet. Thanks! JKL

Guest_MK Ultra_*	Feb 5 2006, 02:43 PM Post #2
Guests	Not to my knowledge. But one could rule (and I´d understand the spirit of the rules that way), that the inverse cover modifires are applied in this case. So you got full cover which is +6 (or was it still 8?) ore something to defend, but you get +3 (or 4) to attack as well! This would not apply IMO by fiering a smartgun remotely from a fieringplatforme.

Lagomorph View Member Profile	Feb 5 2006, 08:19 PM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832	I believe the smart firing platforms are just drones with no wheels.

Darkness

Feb 5 2006, 11:11 PM

Post #4

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 248

QUOTE (jklst14)

Are there any specific modifiers for doing either of these actions? I've looked around and haven't found any yet.

In our group we use the "Attacker firing from cover" modifier (-1, p. 140, Ranged Combat Modifiers Table) for such an occasion.

neko128 View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 04:18 AM Post #5
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209	In my opinion, the closest equivalent to firing around a corner with a smartgun is actually zooming with a scope or cybereye magnification. Shooting around the corner with a smartgun means shooting through a reduced field of view, very similar to shooting through a scope; so I'd rule that the same restrictions/mods apply.

Squinky View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 05:47 AM Post #6
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377	I see no reason why a smartlink wouldn't have the same field of vision as one eye. I don't believe it would be a narrow little picture, that seems silly.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 07:27 AM Post #7
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	well, closing one eye does narrow your field of vision quite a bit. that said, there's no information on what kind of field of view a smartlink sensor gives you.

eidolon View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 07:57 AM Post #8
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	Ignore me if you saw this before I edited. Sam Adams said not to pay attention when I saw the example from the text in the first post.

BGMFH View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 12:39 PM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kill Em All Member No.: 2,018	Firing around corners is a good idea, use a shotgun on FA. Mods wont matter too much then... But, I'd give Attacking from Cover mods as well.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Feb 6 2006, 11:43 PM Post #10
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	I might apply the same mods that spellcasters get casting through magesight or periscopes, which, IIRC, is a -2. All other things aside, firing a gun around a corner is a bizarre way to use it, and ergonomically uncomfortable (the recoil doesn't go back into your body, you're probably twisting your wrist or elbow, etc). I don't have a serious problem applying a (fairly small) -2 to the check.

jklst14 View Member Profile	Feb 7 2006, 02:55 AM Post #11
CosaNostra Deliverator Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 346 Joined: 29-January 05 From: Philadelphia, PA Member No.: 7,034	Thanks everyone for their input. This helps a lot. JKL

neko128

Feb 7 2006, 04:09 AM

Post #12

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 327
Joined: 28-January 06
Member No.: 8,209

QUOTE (Shrike30)

I might apply the same mods that spellcasters get casting through magesight or periscopes, which, IIRC, is a -2.

All other things aside, firing a gun around a corner is a bizarre way to use it, and ergonomically uncomfortable (the recoil doesn't go back into your body, you're probably twisting your wrist or elbow, etc). I don't have a serious problem applying a (fairly small) -2 to the check.

On the contrary, I don't think it's bizarre at all. If I don't have to stick my head around a corner into oncoming bullets to return fire, well, I'd really rather not. :) Why risk a head, when you can only risk a hand/forearm instead? ESPECIALLY if it's a cybered one?

Squinky View Member Profile	Feb 7 2006, 04:57 AM Post #13
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377	-2 seems fair, basically just negates the normal bonus from the smartlink.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Feb 7 2006, 06:04 AM Post #14
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	The ability to shoot around corners is one of the selling points of the Land Warrior system. It isn't bizzare at all.

eidolon

Feb 7 2006, 06:21 AM

Post #15

ghostrider

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,196
Joined: 16-May 04
Member No.: 6,333

QUOTE (jklst14 @ quoting from the SR4 book)

The rulebook mentions that a smartlinked weapon is equiped with a camera and can be fired around corners (p. 312)
...
Are there any specific modifiers for doing either of these actions? I've looked around and haven't found any yet.

Okay. Here's my logic on this one. The original Smartlink system provided its bonus by placing a targeting reticle in your field of vision to reflect where the muzzle of your weapon was pointing. This means that your field of vision was steady, while the reticle was mobile. This is why it gives you a bonus to hit things. You know exactly where your weapon is pointing.

Now, if you've got a camera mounted on the weapon (as part of the Smartlink system; more on why this is stupid in a bit), then ostensibly that camera is pointing where you point the weapon. Therefore, the field of vision provided by the camera is mobile, and the reticle would have to be fixed in that field of vision, since the reticle is pointed where the weapon is pointed, and the weapon is being aimed by looking through a camera that's mounted to it. Since this is no better than peering through any other fixed sighting system, it provides no more bonus that simply looking down the barrel would. Therefore, no Smartlink bonus.

This is a case of them trying too hard to make something cool. What they meant to get across is that guns can have a camera on them, that can be used to shoot around corners. Their mistake was trying to make it part of the Smartlink system.

In conclusion, I'd simply take away any bonuses provided by the Smartlink, and then add a situational mod for them shooting from a clumsy position.

Darkness

Feb 7 2006, 03:17 PM

Post #16

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 297
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 248

QUOTE (eidolon)

Now, if you've got a camera mounted on the weapon (as part of the Smartlink system; more on why this is stupid in a bit), then ostensibly that camera is pointing where you point the weapon. Therefore, the field of vision provided by the camera is mobile, and the reticle would have to be fixed in that field of vision, since the reticle is pointed where the weapon is pointed, and the weapon is being aimed by looking through a camera that's mounted to it. Since this is no better than peering through any other fixed sighting system, it provides no more bonus that simply looking down the barrel would. Therefore, no Smartlink bonus.

I have to disagree on this one. The Smartgun System incorporates also a range finder, and thus the target reticle wouldn't be fixed in the middle of the screen but more likely below or above the center depending on the distance of the target to the shooter. I even believe it will calculate the ballistical properties of the inserted ammunition, changing the position of the reticle even more so, optimizing your shooting performance.
You therefore have to aim higher or lower, as it should be, to hit the target where you want to, as the SG still calculates these factors in. It probably even (roughly) calculates the movement of the target by the changes of the range finder readings. Because this is only a rough calculation the SG "only" gives a +2 Mod.
All those things still apply if you point the gun around a corner. Only the more awkward hand position and the circumstance that you have to aim through an AR Window showing the SG camera picture should count. And for that a -1 is efficient enough IMHO.

Eddie Furious View Member Profile	Feb 8 2006, 01:45 AM Post #17
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519	One more thing I wouold like to add. When firing around a corner one assumes an unusual posture and grip on the weapon, thus reducing the ability to ride out recoil and action of the weapon during the firing cycle, maybe we should also consider the effects of recoil as well?

eidolon View Member Profile	Feb 8 2006, 02:12 AM Post #18
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	None of what you've said changes the fact that if both the weapon and the device providing a visual of the target are moving together, then there will be no accuracy gained by having a reticle at all. In fact, since your visual changes as you attempt to adjust aim, it's going to negatively impact your accuracy. You can know the range and be using your favorite hand load, but looking through a camera while poking your weapon around a corner is not going to help your accuracy. As to the rest of your post, you're not understanding the reasoning behind what I'm saying. If the device collecting data to be translated into the location of the reticle within your field of vision, and the device providing that field of vision are moving in tandem, then the system is useless. I don't know how to explain it any better without drawing a picture. (Not sarcasm, btw. I honestly think I could show you easier visually.)

neko128

Feb 8 2006, 04:26 AM

Post #19

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 327
Joined: 28-January 06
Member No.: 8,209

QUOTE (Eddie Furious)

One more thing I wouold like to add.

When firing around a corner one assumes an unusual posture and grip on the weapon, thus reducing the ability to ride out recoil and action of the weapon during the firing cycle, maybe we should also consider the effects of recoil as well?

Well, there's already a recoil modifier, and shooting around a corner would make it impossible to use many forms of recoil compensation. Based on that, I wouldn't apply any additional penalties, myself.

mfb

Feb 8 2006, 04:33 AM

Post #20

Immortal Elf

Group: Members
Posts: 11,410
Joined: 1-October 03
From: Pittsburgh
Member No.: 5,670

QUOTE (eidolon)

Since this is no better than peering through any other fixed sighting system, it provides no more bonus that simply looking down the barrel would.

i disagree, partly because i see the smartlink as telling you not where your barrel is pointed, but where your bullet is going--subtle but important difference, especially at longer ranges.that's a hell of a lot better than trying to use iron sights though a camera, though you do have a point in that it wouldn't be as useful as if you were using your own sensorium to aim. i'd halve the SL bonus.

it's also partly because if you're using a firearm correctly, your weapon and your field of vision are supposed to be locked together. your gun should, ideally, be pointed wherever you're looking. straying from that is going to be a detriment to your aim.

neko128

Feb 8 2006, 04:54 AM

Post #21

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 327
Joined: 28-January 06
Member No.: 8,209

QUOTE (mfb)

it's also partly because if you're using a firearm correctly, your weapon and your field of vision are supposed to be locked together. your gun should, ideally, be pointed wherever you're looking. straying from that is going to be a detriment to your aim.

I hate to do this, but I'm going to modify your statement a bit: "if you're using a firearm correctly BY MODERN STANDARDS, your weapon and your field of vision..." A significant part of this is that it's much harder to judge where the weapon is going if it's not linked to your frame of reference. The entire point of a Smartlink is that it tells you EXACTLY where the bullet is going, so linking it to your frame of reference isn't necessary to accurately aim any more.

eidolon View Member Profile	Feb 8 2006, 05:30 AM Post #22
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	Disagree all you like. It's a free 'net. (so far anyway) I reread the SR3 and SR4 entries (main book and sources), and I see nothing that indicates that the SL system turns your weapon into some magic-missile of hot lead. All I see is confirmation after confirmation that it shows where your weapon is pointed, and if equipped with a rangefinder (an add-on in SR3, standard issue in SR4) tells you how far away the target is. These translate as a targetting reticle that grants a modifier making it easier to hit your target. Not a given that you're going to put a bullet in that exact spot, a modifier to how good your chance is of doing so.

Krotiez

Feb 8 2006, 07:25 AM

Post #23

Target

Group: Members
Posts: 16
Joined: 5-January 06
From: Kansas City Area, Missouri
Member No.: 8,134

QUOTE (SR4 @ pg. 323)

Smartlink: This accessory interacts with a smartgun system (p. 311) to project the weapon's angle of fire into the user's vision, centering red crosshairs where the user is pointing and highlighting preceived targets. The smartgun's laser rangefinder also calculates and displays the distance to the target. Additional data from the weapon, such as the ammunition level, heat buildup, and stress can also be displayed. Requires an image link.

Hmm.

QUOTE (SR4 @ pg. 311)

Smartgun System: The smartgun system connects a firearm or projectile weapon directly into a user's smartlink (see p. 323). It incorporates a laser range finder and a small camera, and keeps track of ammunition, heat buildup, and material stress. It allows a smartlinked character to mentally switch between gun modes, eject clips, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger. The camera allows for targeted shooting around corners, without exposing oneself to return fire.
The system makes use of advanced calculation software, allowing the user to aim even weapons with a high ballistic firing arc (like grenades) with tremendous precision over any distance...

I cut that off early to save room.

Just typing out what the book says, I don't have a dog in this fight.

[edit: fixed typos]

Chaos Kingpin View Member Profile	Feb 8 2006, 08:08 AM Post #24
Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,206	This helps, but still does not conclude anything. It says that it shows you the correct trajectory, and line of fire and all that, right? But that is when you are looking at the physical target with your own two eyes. I agree with the narrow feild of vision mentioned above. You are no longer looking at a target while using the smartgun's visual overlays, but hiding behind a corner using only the guns one eye. Not only is this a more narrow field of vision, but when seeing out of only one eye (or a camera lens) you lose a large amount of you depth perception... Also, I would think that whatever you are looking at on the safe side of the wall would be a distraction, perhaps similar to when a hacker is trying to hack in AR in the miiddle of a fight.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Feb 8 2006, 10:15 PM Post #25
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	Speaking as a guy who does a decent amount of shooting in real life, there's a few comfortable positions to hold a firearm in, and an infinite variety of uncomfortable ones. If you're sticking your hand around a corner with enough of a bend at the wrist that the rest of your body is protected, regardless of whether you're using a pistol or a long gun, you've just assumed one of the oddball positions that trained shooters don't use, because it doesn't let them actually aim at the target and the weapon is largely unsupported in a body-ergonomics kind of way. The laser sight puts a dot of light where the gun is pointed, theoretically helping your aim (hence, the +1). The smartgun link, asides from the whole camera-around-a-corner bit, DNI control of the piece, and the fact that it takes range-to-target into consideration for ballistic arc, is basically doing the same thing but with the dot much easier to see and inside your eyeball. Shooting it normally, you're going to be used to seeing a reticle on your vision, which would help some when using the sights on the weapon and help more if you're firing from the hip or off the shoulder, but when you get down to the point where you're looking at a little screen in your field of view and moving a crosshair around by manipulating your weapon at an odd angle, you're doing something which is totally unlike the motions you go through for any kind of a "normal" shot. Giving out a -2 for the sheer awkwardness involved really doesn't seem that "out there." As for whether or not this concept is bizarre... some snipers in WWI used periscope-equipped rifles for firing from trenches. You can even buy a periscope sight for a pistol now that uses a little screen rather than just pure optical reflection, and has a stock built in so that you can shoulder it and use it more comfortably around the corner. And you know what? Neither of them is a common sight by any means, mostly because people don't want to bother, and find them much harder to use than a conventional shooting position, added exposure or not. I think that safely bumps them into the "bizarre" range.

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »