Anti-mage tactics, A Street Sam primer Options

[Samaels Ghost]

Sammies tend to whine a lot about spellslingers. But this comment in another thread got me thinking

[krayola red]

3) Shoot them in the face with a assault rifle.

[Jaid]

hiding is also quite good. it even works against astral perception. and most any sammy should be able to hide at least a little, many of them will be very good at it too ;)

in comparison, not too many mages will max out their perception (not that they'll never have it at all, just not likely maxed out).

[JonathanC]

How exactly do LOS penalties affect spellcasting? I mean, smoke only subtracts a number of dice from visual perception tests...and if the mage has cybereyes, wouldn't that remove that penalty for the most part?

Plus, couldn't the mage just activate their astral perception and target you that way?

[hyzmarca]

Just about anything that will counter a gun will counter a combat spell. Magicians don't suffer range penalties but they do suffer all of the visual penalities that other characters do.
Darkness is less useful due to astral perception, but thermal smoke works very well, as does taking cover and shooting from a fully concealed position using a smartlink camera or a grenade.

Large amounts of living material can make astral perception difficult, as well. Since all life has an aura it is difficult for a magician to pick out a single astral target in a jungle, for example. Hiding in foliage is very useful as is decorating your abode with far too many potted plants. Dual-natured plants are even better since the an astral being will not be able to move through them and won't be able to see or attack through them if they are sufficiently dense.

Background count is almost a requirement for the discerning samurai's home. You know how homes where grizzly murders and mass suicides took place usually sell for far les than their actual value today? Well they'll go for far more than their actual value in the future because those grizzly murders and mass suicides will make it far more difficult for a magician to kill you in your home.
If you can't buy a home with a Background count then you can always make your own. You don't have to be a twisted magician to gain benefits from torturing and murder a few children every day. Remember, a murder a day keeps the spirits away (except for blood spirits because they like that sort of stuff).
It is also important to know where the background counts are and what they are. If you keep up with the latest geomancy journels and almanacs then you should know the safest places to battle a mage of a specific tradition are and you should make sure the battles take place in those locations.


Then there are Free Spirits. Remember, anyone can summon a free spirit, even a mundane. It is quite possible for a samurai with a decent willpower and edge to bind a Force 1-3 free spirit and keep it on call for emergencies.I really wound't recomend this because it tends to make the spirit angry and angry free spirits aren't good for mundanes. However, a samurai should be able to safely rebind a force 1 spirit indefinitely.
Likewise, a mundane can make a spirit pact just like anyone else. A samurai doesn't need nearly as much karma as a magician does so he can benefit from karma trading far more easily. Power Pact: Magic Guard is of particular use to the anti-magic samurai since it would allow him to learn and use counterspelling.
A savy samurai with knowledge of spirits could bind a force 1 free spirit with the magical guard power and force it into two pacts, first a formula pact (so no one else cound bind the spirit; immortality is a plus) and second a power pact for magical guard. As long as the samurai keeps the spirit bound and renews the power pact daily he can learn and use counterspelling as if he were a magician. When the power pact is disolved the counterspelling skill would become a far less useful knowledge skill untill another power pact is made.

A samurai could also purchase wards and anchors from magicians who make them for a living. This cound get expensive, especially if the anchors are used often, but there are some great benefits. A samurai could buy an anchored mana static spell, for example, and use it whenever he goes up agaisnt a magician.

Specific spells can be countered specific ways. Invisibility can be defeared wirth ultrasound, for example.

Also, drones can be used to defeat or bypass certain spells or to just stay out of danger. Drones are far cheaper now and any samurai with a comlink can use them. Due to the OR threshold even the smallest drone is nearly immune to all low force spells and drones are naturally immune to some illusion spells such as forboding and orgasm. A single skimmer with a brick of C4 strapped to it can do in a mage far more cheaply and easily than some other methods.

[Critias]

I'm a big fan of the "beat them with your superior initiative, shoot them in the face" plan. If, for some reason, that doesn't work out, I've yet to fail with the "spam thermal smoke grenades, then hurl high explosive or incendiary grenades into the cloud of smoke."

Mages tend to not soak damage real well. So the street sam's old standby of "kill shit" is often the answer.

[Jaid]

[edit] this is in response to JonathanC's post, for the record [/edit]

well, if the mage has cybereyes, then he's already got a penalty to spellcasting.

secondly, cybereyes won't help against thermal smoke (and i can't imagine anyone bothering with normal smoke, to be honest... thermal vision is too common)

thirdly, if the mage fails a perception check to see you (provided one is required), then he cannot target you with spells. with the possible exception of the high-drain indirect AOE spells, depending on your GM's opinion at present (rules can be interpreted either way), and even then they need a general idea of where you are to target you.

so, for example, if a mage has intuition 3 and perception 2, and you give him -5 or more to his dice pool to see you, then he has 0 dice in his pool... and therefore, he cannot target you with any of his spells.

as another example, i personally recommend electrical damage. most sammies will have some stick'n'shock ammo... and mages often can't afford as high a body as they would need to resist the secondary elemental effect =)

[edit] oh, and about astral perception... that works great against invisible targets and the like. it does absolutely nothing to help you spot someone who is hiding behind stuff, or to help you see through a smoke cloud. [/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Sep 6 2006, 06:02 PM

[Shrike30]

Smoke works on the astral the same as it does on the physical.

Cover is incredibly useful against mages. Unlike sams with guns, you can't "blind-fire" a spell. Get some remote information feeds piped in, and being behind a solid object isn't a problem. Sure, the mage can get behind cover, too... but he's less likely to have a weapon capable of reaching *around* cover.

Smart characters will know that mages are incredibly dangerous. The smart character, when faced with a mage and not having a good shot will find cover, prepare for a possible spirit attack, and get their own mage/hacker/rigger online to nail the opposing mage indirectly.

[Firewall]

My personal favourite is the Ranger Arms SM-3 but any rifle with enough range will do the job. Shoot, repeat until they are down, shoot one more just to be sure. Remember that 500m is great for most people but not very far if they have any kind of elemental or astral servant.

Alternatively, there are a variety of knock-out gas grenades. A simple respirator will allow you to approach the now-unconscious mage and remove any items that look like sustaining focuses. Complete this with a few well-place bullets, coups-de-gras if you will.

The most spectacular I ever saw involved a rating 10 Fire spell of some description... That was how I learned the GM was a twinky bastard...

[Kyoto Kid]

...superior firepower, cunning, and a called shot to the head is always a good solution.

Just hope the offending spellcaster isn't a troll though (as has been the case too many times in runs I have been on). That would take a PJSS (with EXEX), Panther Assault Cannon or light anti tank weapon to bring down in one shot.

[Shrike30]

[Whizbang]

Seems that tinting windows tends to be helpful, getting into the whole need line of sight thing.

[Shrike30]

Making your windows one-way glass (reflective on the outside, transparent on the inside) would help too.

Is there any actual RAW text on whether or not you can see through glass on the astral? I've always played glass as an opaque surface.

Actually, glass = opaque doesn't make any sense. How do mages use binoculars, otherwise?

[JonathanC]

[Moon-Hawk]

Yeah. Unliving matter between you and what you're trying to see. Kinda like a wall is unliving matter between you and what you're trying to see.

[Samaels Ghost]

I like the electrical damage, but what it is really useful for is knocking out their buffs. A mage has to make a check when damaged to hold his sustaining. If you you're hit with a spell that saps your abilities or are faced with a mage or his buddy that seems to be affected by a spell, electrical damage makes it really hard to keep up spells (the roll they make is Body+Will (3) i think).

Buying wards for your team van and your apartment is a neccesity. I'm pretty sure Demonseed Elite said that you can ward a vehicle.

Drone sappers are a good idea to have for any team in many situations, so I don't think it really counts... But I love the idea :D


Hanging up curtains in a hallway is a great way to limit visibility that can't be countered with Astral Perception. Any thin, unliving barrier that can be seen through with Thermal vision is a good idea for killing mage LOS.

[DireRadiant]

Send in the armed drones. Object resistance tests are horrible.

[JonathanC]

[Samaels Ghost]

This is important. Read these carefully.

http://www.sprawledout.com/?p=15
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=14230

The second will take awhile to find where they start really talking about moving wards, but just search with your browser within the page and you'll find it eventually.

[Kyoto Kid]

...so, (using the case of the warded shipping container) if a ward were cast on the body shell (not the wheels or drivetrain) of say, a Bulldog Van or Conestoga Trailer unit, it would not come down when the vehicle moved?

[Samaels Ghost]

[Dudukain]

Street Samurai cannot beat mages at longrange. A fireball or lightning bolt will fry you. You MUST close to melee range, and if you have wired reflexes, it should be simple from there to hack them up with a sword.


Fireball>Gun

[JonathanC]

True, but I'd put money on an Adept carving up a street sam in melee, if both men are specialists in the area.

[Samaels Ghost]

[lorechaser]

In d20, the grapple is the ultimate mage killer, but that doesn't seem to be the case in SR so much. Is there a way to slap a blinder on a mage, though, given that they will tend to have weak physical stats?

[mfb]

drugs. hit 'em with a DMSO/whatever cocktail, to raise their TNs. but if you can shoot them with a squirt, you can shoot them with a bullet.

[Lantzer]

[Ranneko]

That said, the rule of thumb is if you can see through it in the physical, you can see through in in the astral. The only exception to that are wards.

[Samaels Ghost]

[Zen Shooter01]

Strike fast and hard. That's what samurai do. When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

[Aaron]

Chances are, you're going to have more IPs than the magician. So stay behind solid cover for your first IP, then go get 'em. If the magician doesn't cooperate and delays her action, toss a grenade or something to get her to dodge, then smite her.

[Samaels Ghost]

[JonathanC]

[Samaels Ghost]

Let me expand on that then. Take cover, throw a grenade on your second to last action, then attack. If I see a grenade coming and I can't take it out or get behind cover, then I'm going on Full Defense when that thing goes off. Which will give the sammie the edge.

[hyzmarca]

You can't rely on having more initative passes. Increased reflexes in a sustaining focus is still a viable.

[Jaid]

well, look, if we're gonna give the mage unlimited resources (oh noes! he has 50 different spells sustained on himself with foci) then we may as well just end the thread now, because it's just getting silly.

sure, you can go on about how "any decent mage is gonna have X", but quite frankly, that isn't always true. not everyone *has* 20,000 :nuyen: to just toss around you know, mage or not. not everyone knows increase reflexes either... this is for dealing with mages, not pure combat mages who make it their life goal to nuke everything in sight.

and anyways, i personally would assume that increase reflexes is a lot like wired reflexes in terms of flavor text... that is, it's really annoying to have it running all the time.

iiiiiiittttt fffeeeeeeelllssssssss liiiiiiiike eeeeeveryyyyyooooonnnneeee iiiiissss taaaaalllllkkkkiiiiiinnnnnngggg rrrrreeeeeaaaaaallllllyyyyy ssssssslllllooooowwww, for example.


and it would get annoying after a while. then, when it's time for combat to begin, they may very well not have time to cast over and over until they get max sucesses, and each time they do retry gives you time to set up, and costs them drain.

so, sure, if we're dealing with a situation where the mage literally has everything going in their favor, then you're screwed. but this isn't just about situations where the mage has 9 bound spirits, all of his stats raised to racial maximum, 4 IPs, and a force 10 ally spirit. it's for situations where you're dealing with reasonable mages who aren't purely specialised to kill you.

i personally have made mages before that i intended to be capable in a fight, but they didn't have increase reflexes on their spell list. just as the runner team's mage can be a combat mage without being the main damage dealer, a combat mage may very well want to do other things with his karma than turn himself into a killing machine. the mages you go up against can just as easily be built around supporting allies as around nuking stuff.

[toturi]

[JonathanC]

I honestly think that it is reasonable for a combat mage to have a force 3 sustaining focus (30k), or to simply walk around always sustaining an increased reflexes spell at force 3, giving him 4 initiative passes. initiative passes are very important to combat; a mage specializing in combat would be ill advised to ignore such an important spell. I've seen some mages who go so far as to have both an armor spell and a physical barrier spell sustained on them. But that's going a bit far.

A reasonable configuration for a combat mage would be something like an armored vest (6/4 armor; I'm assuming the mage didn't go higher than 3 on their body, and doesn't want to take the penalties for armor encumbrance), has a sustaining foci for their Increased Reflexes (+6 reaction, 4 initiative passes), and as soon as they sense trouble, will cast a decent armor spell on themselves.

That's the bare minimum to expect from a combat mage, IMO. A serious combat mage, say, one heading into what they know is trouble, would have the armor spell up to begin with, possibly a physical barrier as backup, or maybe the combat sense spell.

But forget about that. Let's assume our mage went light on his physical stats, say a reaction 3, and an intuition of 4. So he's already running around with an initiative score of 13 with his foci on. You can't assume that your street sam is going first, unless you invested in edge points. And if you do go first, consider that he's rolling about 9 dice in reaction to defend against your firearms test, more than that if he's got a decent dodge skill and is willing to abort to a dodge (thus giving up his complex action...actually a good thing, since you'll have him on the defensive). But with 9 dice and an armor rating of 9 (on par with a street sam), he might be willing to take his chances to drop you with his next spell.

A combat mage is a bear to deal with, and a well-twinked combat mage is an absolute nightmare. Your best bet is either using another combat mage, sending drones after them, or running them over in a car with tinted windows. 8)

[Slithery D]

[lorechaser]

That mage with Inc. Ref going in his sustaining focus 24/7 is a great candidate for focus addiction....

[Critias]

[SL James]

[2bit]

[DireRadiant]

Flash paks.

Granted flash comp is cheap and easy, but did they remember to get that?

[Samaels Ghost]

Having a camera record what you're seeing or double checking your eye recorders is a great way bypass mana Invis and Phantasm. The spells won't affect the hardware, so the recording will be clean.

Think about how a sammie can deal with each type of spell category and spirits too. Spirits are just as much a part of an encounter with a mage as spells are.

Combat - LOS limitation, usually taking cover. Indirect spells can be dodged, but enhancements to your armor like Nonconductivity can save you from most of the damage from these spells. Manabolt, not so much. Good luck with that one.

Detection - A good Will roll can make some of these spells vague. Even Clairvoyance can be made more vague by sneaking, so don't get discouraged when you know there's a mage looking for you. You still have a good chance to evade his watchful eye. These spells aren't a catch-all.

Health - The offensive ones are touch, so this is a no brainer. Don't get close and, like others have suggested, shoot 'em dead. Mage buddies that are buffed by these can't be too powerful. To make them uber they need lots of spells sustained. Unless they have just one Inc Reflexes. In which case deal with it.

Illusion - above^

Manip - Pain Editor is a great piece of bio, grab it for the extra Will. Someone Controlling your Thoughts has free riegn, however. That one is tough, does anyone have a counter for that? Besides counterspelling support and LOS tricks as mentioned above? Manip is tricky, as it can do so much. It's not usually immediately deadly like a Manabolt is, though. You'll probably get a chance to shake them.

[Ranneko]

[Samaels Ghost]

Inc Reflexes is a non-issue. Keep in mind this is a thread about countering mages. Assume your enemy is just as fast and take the chance to pop a shot into the mage every chance you get. Damage might make him drop the spell and if his has a sustaining focus then there's not much you can do. Just keep him on a defensive.

A lot of that can be said for any character in many situations. Stick to Sammy vs. Mage tactics and strategies, favoring the sammy of course :D

[Butterblume]

Basic infantry tactics work well against mages.

• Spread out
• Cover
• Concealment (Stealth)
• Covering fire (in SR terms, suppressive fire and delayed actions)

+ a lot of things mentioned before.

Of course this works only in groups, but someone mentioned his NPCs chewed by Mages. And, Manipulation spells are still a tough nut.

[Samaels Ghost]

Good, that's more of what I'm looking for. I've delayed summarizing because I'm still getting suggestions. Once this degrades into talk about something completely different and I can't keep it on topic, then I'll wrap it up.

Thanks to everybody that has contributed something useful thus far :D

[maeel]

i'd prefer the squirt or a capsule round (they will be in arsenal, wont they) with DMSO and a decent toxin, splash grenade(arsenal) or flyspy equipped with a chemical deployment system, if the target is in hiding.

Reasons: wether or not the mage got more than 1 IP, most mages will have spirit ready or summon one to protect them, so if u don't take em down right at the beginning, u will very likely face a pretty pissed force 5 spirit (good luck). u stun the mage the spirit is still after u, u kill the mage, spirit goes bye-bye.

spirits are ur major concern, plus the possibility of the target (mojo-tosser) being decently armored in mundane and magic ways.

"geek the mage first!" ain't a sayin just for kicks....

[Apathy]

People often complain about invisible mages nuking folks or passing by them undetected.

Most of my corporate facilities include dogs with their guards. They're cheap, easy to train, and aren't fooled by invisibility since their primary sense is scent, not sight. I would think this could work (at least in some cases) for the PCs as well. If nothing else, it gives the mage an additional target to waste an IP on in the first pass...

[Geekkake]

I feel that drones are the most effective means of dealing with mages. And keep in mind, you don't need to be a rigger or hacker - anyone can use them. They have a Pilot rating and can follow commands. Get out of LOS, deploy the drone, use it's feed. Once it finds the mage, give the command. "You see that guy? Shoot that guy." The drone does the rest.

Now use 3-4 flying ones with Alphas.

[2bit]

[Metasigil]

Well cyber-eye cameras might be fooled, but not most of the time. Basic Invisibility is a mental illusion that only effects living things. So the camera is never fooled by basic Invisibility. As for Improved Invisibility that will only fool a cyber eye camera if there were at least 3, probably 4, successes on the casting roll, due to needing to overcome object resistance.

[Lagomorph]

Multiple fire would work well for mages on full dodge, the -1 die from each attack means that you'll whittle down their dodge pool to nothin in pretty short order for that one IP. Drones with guns work well in concert with a delayed shooting action. Let the drones go first to start stacking up penalties on the mage, then pop out and let him try and dodge with -4 or -5 dice.

I wonder if a gas grenade that would suspend a living creature like yeast or bacteria in air would prevent astral perception and projection?

Also, try and work on the stun track, since they'll likely take stun damage from casting, they'll help you knock them out.

[Metasigil]

A yeast bomb? This... amuses me. So much potential for humor, and it would probably work too. I'll have to remember that If I ever do my Archie McPhee based one-shot. :D

[Lagomorph]

[2bit]

[Jaid]

[Lagomorph]

I was under the impression that you were not able to astrally move through living creatures in 4th edition, but I could be wrong about that. In which case the idea isn't viable.

[Shrike30]

We used to use a netgun with nets that had been inundated with FAB II. Nothing quite like watching a spirit getting wrapped up to brighten your day. If nothing else, it forced the thing back to the metaplanes temporarily.

[Butterblume]

[2bit]

Yes, you can still move through living creatures in 4th ed. The rule to detect skelping is still there.

[JonathanC]

[Metasigil]

The cyber-eyes are counted as part of the holistic being, becasue Essence was paid for them. Other wise Mages with cyber-eye could never cast LOS spells ever again, but they can, as mentioned in the section on casting through optics. However, I, as a theoretical GM, would say that the cyber-eye camera being a purely mechanical device, recording to digital memory with out going through a living brain, is not part of the holistic being or fooled by basic Invisibility. Thus, to bypass Invisibility with the camera in real time, you'd need to be constantly playing the camera's recording up in a corner of your HUD. Doable, but I'd still require a perception test based on how long the Mage was wandering around in camera's field of vision and how sneaky the mage was/ wasn't being. And if the entire HUD was replaced with the camera's recording I'd apply a -1 or -2 penelty minimum to represent lag and disorientation.

[Samaels Ghost]

[2bit]

yeah. much easier to say it affects the camera too. Keep an already limited use spell from being even less valuable.

Really, it's the same argument as Eyeball drones. When docked, they're cyberware and subject to mana spells. When deployed, they're machines with an object resistance.

[Samaels Ghost]

How is the digital recording affected by mana spells? Much easier? Not really.

[2bit]

Aren't mana spells affecting other senses subject to recording via sim rig? Illusion spells affect the target's sense, so in my opinion any recording made using that sense will show the illusion.

[JonathanC]

[Red]

Changed my mind.

This post has been edited by Red: Sep 8 2006, 04:53 AM

[Cabral]

If you don't mind digging up Man & Machine, the slick and insta-foam grenades should provide a good deal of annoyance :)

[Vaevictis]

[JonathanC]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Ryu]

That is an interesting angle Rotbart - makes basic Invisibility useless against cybered guards except for combat purposes. I like! (and shall NOT warn the players 8) )

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Theoretically, you could make it useless in combat, too - just run Edit on your Cybereyes and let it add an glowing orange outline to every person it finds.

[The Jopp]

If there is a disagreement that the cyebreye camera cannot be used to circumvent invisibility just use the guncamera in your smartgun link. Having a HUD window for “seeing” what you cannot see is a damn good idea.

[lorechaser]

Especially since the general consensus seems to be that magic is generally far superior to tech. Let tech take a little back....

And yes, I agree with the lag idea. If you're watching it live, it's fooled. You'd have to watch it offset (even as little as .5 seconds) to see the recording. So every moment, you're not watching the world, you're watching the world .5 seconds ago. Things are in minutely different places (or signifcantly, if you're moving at 200 mph). If you've ever had a cell phone conversation with someone on the other side of a window, you know just how disorienting it is when their words don't match their mouths.

[rangda]

[2bit]

yep. thats why time and time again, the book refers to cybereyes as being the user's natural vision. If you paid essence for it, it's part of your natural being. thus, an astrally projecting mage can't pass through an astrally perceiving magician's cyberarm.

[James McMurray]

It's kinda moot anyway, at least in my experience. I don't think I've ever seen a mage take regular Invisibility. They always go the physical route because of how prevelant cameras are.

[Teulisch]

nice to see a coment of mine spawned this long of a thread :)

most the discussion so far seems to be focused on LOS and visibility... from the mages end at that.

Generaly, any sam worth the name will have some decent upgrades in his cybereyes. and ultrasound is a very usefull thing to have as well (see invisible).

one thing i didnt see mentioned- the olfactory booster, or cybernose. this thing can give you chemical readouts. if you input known smells wich are rare outside of magical use, then you can be aware of when your near those who use magical paraphanalia (mages, talismongers, and wannabees). that right there can be an important clue for situational awareness.

generaly, if a mage needs to set up his spells, he will do so before atatcking you (mage has suprise advantage), or from behind a barrier (magical or otherwise). not all mages have acess to all spells- but its not all the fancy spells that make a mage deadly.

the first weakness of a mage, is sustaining and binding. for each spell sustain, and each bound spirit 'on hand', you have a -2 penalty. so your big-mojo caster with magic 5 and spellcating 5, can only do so much before he loses a lot of ability. at the maximum, he could have 5 spells/spirits at a time, at which point he cant cast anymore spells. while getting 4 IP is worth it for a -2, most other buffs are not going to be as good of a tradeoff.

the second weakness of a mage, is drain. he is losing his health to his own magic, as much as he is to your gunfire. a smart mage will use a gun instead of a spell whenever he has a choice. bullets take less effort to shoot. not every mage will have a problem with drain, but the random factor can come up at any time.

the thrid weakness of the mage, is suprise. if you take a mage by suprise hes at a major disadvantage to a sam. never assume you will have this edge.

Now, when a sam is going up against a mage who is ready for him- if he knows a mage will be there, he should bring his own mage along for counterspelling and banishing. anything else his mage does is icing on the cake. if the mage suprises tha sam completely- geek the mage. identify your target, and down him ASAP. if you cannot do this, then retreat. use smoke, use gernades, use supression fire.

remember, an astral mage cannot chuck spells at you. the worst an astral mage can do is direct spirits, and tell security where you are.

[James McMurray]

-2 dice per bound spirit is an optional rule, and most spells that are worth keeping up all the time will be sustained. It's true that not every mage has sustaining foci, but if your strategies are based on beating the ones that do, the ones that don't will be much easier.

[JonathanC]

[lorechaser]

I agree, to some extent. But at the same time, if you have 5 mages on both sides, you're just watching spells get countered, and nothing happen.

If you have one mage running cover, and 3 guys shooting holes, then things work better.

Which I think is one of the key things against mages - all it takes is one mage to neutralize a team of mages (basically). Saying you have to have a mage isn't a bad thing. Because you also have to have a Sam, imho.

[JonathanC]

One mage trying to counter a team of mages would die quickly. Not as quick as a team without a mage would die, but quickly nonetheless. He'd be overwhelmed by spells.

[Kyoto Kid]

[JonathanC]

Here's an idea...but it requires a mage. Since LOS is required for casting...why not just summon a high-force (6+) Spirit of Water and have him conceal you? Anyone with a perception test pool less than the spirit's force won't even be able to make the test, and you can cast away without fear of magical reprisal.

[Critias]

I'm still not sure why the conversation had to move past "shoot them, or blow them up."

[Ranneko]

[Wasabi]

[Shrike30]

I've got a character who keeps smoke grenades in his armor rigged to his PAN, so that they can be set off with a thought. Backing away through a cloud of smoke banging away with the ultrasonic and suppressing the general direction of the mage is a decent way to survive those first couple of seconds...

[Samaels Ghost]

[Kyoto Kid]

...need a weapon like the one discussed in the Elven Gun thread.

Out of sight = Out of spell range = one dead mage :dead: = one Happy Sammy :D

[Samaels Ghost]

Just use a high AP gun with very sensitive sensory-arrays. Shoot through cover, rinse, repeat. I like it.

[Clyde]

Make sure to have Ultrasound capability, or at least some serious hearing and/or olfactory augmentation - you don't want the invisible bastard sneaking up on you.

Wear a camouflage suit or better yet a chameleon suit. Don't forget thermal dampening. If he gets to be invisible you should, too!

Try a submachine gun or machine pistol loaded with Stick 'n Shock rounds. The mage gets half impact armor, so even the armor spell won't necessarily help. Plus, if you get any damage through the mage has a good chance of being stunned. Why an autofire weapon? Because wide bursts are just what the Dr. ordered for Combat Sense foci.

Mount a high intensity flashlight on that SMG - unless the mage shelled out for flare comp he could get a glare penalty. While we're talking glare, carry a flashpack. You can throw it out from behind full cover and hopefully not get smoked instantly by a manabolt. Thermal smoke is good, too. Even without the ultrasound you can still shoot at a -6 blindfire penalty while the mage can do nothing. A periscope/smartlink camera to fire around corners wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

Be prepared to deal with pain! The mage is going to get one in on you sooner or later. If it's a stun spell (and plenty of folks on the boards say they're the most powerful) you can handle it with a Stim patch. Keep that Stim patch handy!! Tape the backing to your belt or inside your coat, so you can rip it off one handed and slap it on your neck in a single, smooth motion. Make sure you can get to it left handed, it doesn't look very manly when you drop your H&K while screaming in pain. You might also want to invest in Damage Compensator bioware or an Adrenal Pump. Either will keep you on your feet through that first blast of Stunbolt - at least long enough for you to fill the unfortunate spellworm full of lead (or lead azide explosives, if that's your huckleberry).

Upgrade your armor - Fire Resistance, Insulation, Non-Conductivity, etc. Mages like elemental spells sometimes. Since those involve an attack test, invest in your Dodge skill to get out of the way of them.

Get some friends. Mages are supposed to be rare, so there shouldn't be gobs of them. Chrome, on the other hand, is surprisingly cheap. Make sure to spread out so you don't all get fireballed. If one of those friends is a rigger - awesome. We all know drones work great.

Use Edge. Again, mages are supposedly rare, so they ought to be worth the expenditure.

To put it all together - try to get a surprise shot. Preferably from far away with lots of friends. Failing that, try to damp his visibility through whatever means possible while slinging lots of lead. If he gets the drop on you, try to stim patch it and get to full cover ASAP. Use your gun periscope or smartlink to shoot around it while thermal smoke begins to fill the room. If you still can't see him, throw out a microdrone (or get your rigger to use a regular one) and get a sensor bead on the joker. Don't panic. Clear LOS. Locate the threat. Take action.

[Zen Shooter01]

Samurai suceed against magicians, and everybody else, by doing what they've always done best, by doing what they're built for - striking hard and fast from behind cover and with surprise.

Also keep in mind that samurai are tough. There's a good chance of surviving the first Manabolt or Flamethrower, especially with a little luck on the dice, and then blasting back with an Ingram Smartgun long burst doing 10P being pushed by a dice pool of 12 including Edge. (AGI 6, Automatics 5, Edge 3, smartgun +2, -2 wounds, -2 recoil.)

[The Jopp]

1 Doberman (With good gun, Ares Alpha is nice)
4+ Flash bangs
4+ Flash Packs
1 Can of Glue Spray

Stick the grenades and flash packs to strategic locations on the Doberman so that they are facing in ALL directions. Let it go at full speed straight into a group of combatants (mages etc) and let the drone activate everything with a wireless command to all items stuck to it. :grinbig:

The drone takes no damage from stun weapons but everyone within 10 meters will have a problem.

Since we have reduced their signal rating to 0 they only reach 3 meters so it’s close enough for the Doberman to command them but to far away for hacking.

[Kyoto Kid]