Homemade Negative Qualities, Yours, mine, ours? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[lorechaser]

So here are a couple new negative qualities I'm thinking of introducing (once I manage to actually get people to, you know, show up to the game). Any thoughts on the balance or appropriateness? Or better names? Or better wording?

Human Throwback (10 pts): This quality may only be taken by a metahuman. Choose a starting attribute that has a racial bonus, and reduce that attributes by one. Your augmented maximum for that attribute is now the same as your racial maximum. In certain circumstances, you may suffer a charisma penalty dealing with members of your own metatype.

The intent is that you get a smaller bonus than a normal member of your race, and you can never be as good as a normal member. The 10 pts is conveniently enough to raise another attribute, but since just shuffling felt cheesy, this also penalizes the attribute you weakened. The pseudo-science is a partially expressed UGE - you didn't get the full benefits of your goblinization.


Dain Bramage (15 pts): Whether you used too many BTL's, burned your brain out on Black IC, or just never quite kept up with the kids, you just aren't as quick as the average bear. You take a -1 penalty on all reaction based checks, and can never spend Edge to go first in a round, or gain extra init passes.


I considered a -2 penalty, but then it seemed like no one would ever take it. I also considered 10 points, but again, for 10 points, you basically get -1 reaction, plus other penalties.


Thoughts? Anyone else have neg. quals to share?

Edit:

Here's the current list, stolen from later in the thread.

Page 1:

Human Throwback (10 pts): Penalty to a racial bonus
Dain Bramage (15 pts): Slow to react.
Grandstander (20 pts): Must be the center of attention.
Enemy(Variable): Enemies.
Flashbacks(Variable,5 to 20)
Whore Hound (5 pt): You want to make sexy time?
Groupies (5/10/15/20 pt): Eeek! There he is!
Temper (10 pts): You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.
Glass Jaw (5 pts): Uppercut! He's down!

Page 2:
Haunted(5/10/15/20): Spoooooky ghosts!
Mean as a Rattler (10pts): Kick em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down.
Grim Servant O Death (20pts): And he was the only one that lived...
Big Britches (5pts): Our fearless leader
Gambling Freak (5/10/15/20): Just one more roll....
Distinctive Style(5): It's all retro SR3!
Swimming with Sharks (0 BP): A pound of flesh.
Stepped on Toes (10 BP): You made someone real big real mad.

[emo samurai]

Grandstander (20 pts)

The grandstander has to make a Willpower + Charisma (4) check to avoid taking center stage whenever there is a lot of people. It is recommended that the grandstander has a lot of charisma.

[ElFenrir]

I like the Dain Bramage and the Grandstander flaws a lot. Heck, i like all of them.

We used the Enemy negative quality; you gain BP as if you were buying Contacts. If your enemy has Power 3 Motivation 3, for example, youd gain 6 BP. Youd gain a whopping 12 with 6 and 6, but would you want that on your tail? :grinbig:

Also, the Flashback flaw can be reinstated, at variable points....Composure roll is taken when 'trigger' is encountered. Flaw points are rated on Trigger and Severity, like an allergy....(or could be flat 5 and 10.) Like, Common is 8 points, Uncommon 3. Mild is 2, Moderate is 7, Severe is 12. Either one could work.


Distinctive Style can be reinstated easily as a 5 point Negative quality, with opponents getting +2 dice to remember/notice character. The opposite Positive quality of Blandness can cost 5 and give opposite benefit.

[Butterblume]

Dain Bramage :rotfl:. Cool name, reminds me of the munchkin card game.
But I think 15 BP is to much.

For Grandstander, just think what might happen if you hear Surrender, you are surrounded during a run :D.

[Kyoto Kid]

...Dain Bramage would have been a good one for KK 4.1. It actually would have fit with her character story better than Uneducated [Severe Learning Disability] since she was repeatedly beaten by her father.

The original Pre SR4 Kyoto Kid also had Distinctive Style. Man, the fashion police were always on her butt. Gives her better reason to have learned the Facial Sculpt and Melanin Control powers.

GM? You out there?

[ChicagosFinest]

Grandstander. LOL thats a good one I recomend that to be official. (it totaly describes the way I play my characters)

[Grinder]

I would love to see some Deadlands-based flaws like
- mean as a rattler
- grim servant o' death
- big britches

There are tons more, but I don't have my Deadlands-books handy, neither do I have the time to think about BP values for it now.

[SL James]

[Eleazar]

[lorechaser]

[lorechaser]

[ElFenrir]

Hmm...perhaps we should catalogue some of these up in this thread. Use it to post any and all of the qualities(Negative AND Positive) that we can. Let's face it, the reason why folks are taking 'Moderate Allergy: Hamsters' 'Incompetent: Badger Wrangling' and 'Ambidexterity' is the lack of qualities overall. When there are only, say, 30 qualities and thousands of characters that get made, of course they are going to have similar qualities.

While there are a lot, i think they should be a broader range. Bring back the Phobias, they could work well. I dunno, but the way the negative qualities are...about 80% of them get complaints for being 'cheap and twinky', and 10% are 'unnecessary'.

BUT, thats all you have to choose from, so people are stuck taking these 'cheap and twinky' qualities because their Technomancer must pull points out of their asses for the Complex Forms(i wont even get into a drone technomancer who must buy vehicle skills.)

So, lets gather up all the qualities! Maybe we can get a good range of them together that wont get accused of being twinky.

[Butterblume]

And the last 10% are just to crippling, like infirm or gremlins.

I agree that they are not enough flaws.

[ElFenrir]

Yeah, I mean, Flaws SHOULD be a disadvantage, but there is a difference between 'pain in the ass' 'disadvantage' or 'im now useless'.

I mean, its all well and good to have Situational flaws....in a pirate campaign, Allergy: Seawater is a tough flaw, in Severe cases it could be deadly. But its balanced, the person that takes Severe Allergy to Seawater in a sealubbing campaign is asking for it.

Allergy: Seawater in a campaign that takes place in Kuopio, Finland would be utterly useless.

I think thats one problem...the flaws can be twinky because they are very situational. A balanced flaw in once campaign could be twinky in another, as said above.

What we need are some good, general purpose, flaws(and positive qualities...come on, not EVERY shadowrunner can be ambidexterous ) that are balanced any way you look at them.

Well, i mean, supposedly, based on that, a campaign based around protecting some crazy rich old Hamster Lady who collects them, Allergy: Hamsters would become balanced. :grinbig:

[SL James]

[ChicagosFinest]

Here are some other suggestions:

Whore Hound, Groupies, Temper, Social Retard, Glass Jaw

Just some off the top of my head. If someone could make some BP blueprints and a description to go along with it that would be cool. I can't do it because my boss is paying attention to what I doing for a little bit

BTW SL James.... LOL! I wish I could feel your pain.

[lorechaser]

Whore Hound, Groupies, Temper, Social Retard, Glass Jaw

Whore Hound (5 pt): Your passions not only rule you, they override your better judgement. You take a -2 penalty on seduction tests and negotiation tests involving your preferred gender, and must make a composure test (3) to avoid pursuing any sort of sexual gratification when it presents itself.

Groupies (5/10/15/20 pt): You are easily recognizable to a certain group. Whether you're a well-known simsense star, a retired Urban Brawl star, or simply have the misfortune to look like the Biff and Buffy love interest of the week, people recognize you, and will actively seek you out, point you out to their friends, etc. This makes it particularly difficult to be subtle. If you take this quality, you may not take Blandness.

The number of points for this flaw depends on the group of people that recognize you.

5 pts: Known to a small niche group (you look like the brother of an actor on a 2nd rate network) or a local area (you are the kid that faced down the Star when they came to arrest Tommy Two Tusks).
10 pts: Known to a reasonbly large group (Your Urban Brawl team never won the Crunch Bowl, but most people can name you as member) or a large area (You are the mayor of Seattle)
15 pts: Known to most of the population ("Hey! Aren't you the 'Can you hear me now' guy?") or to a significant amount of area ("Oh, sure, everyone in the UCAS knows Daniel Boone!")
20 pts: Known to almost everyone on the planet ("Look! Hitler!")

Temper (10 pts): When the going gets tough, you get smashing. Whenever you are insulted, provoked, or wounded, you must make a Willpower + Charisma
Test (3) (wound modifiers apply). If you fail, you must immediately attack your assailant (although non-lethal means are permitted).

Note: The GM is free to request a Temper check whenever he feels it is appropriate. The temper flaw grants the character a point of Notoriety.

Glass Jaw (5 pts): If you take a number of boxes of damage (Stun or Physical) from a single attack that equals or exceeds half your Body (Rounded down), you are automatically knocked down.

[ElFenrir]

[Fortune]

[emo samurai]

[ChicagosFinest]

[Jack Kain]

I think whore hound would be covered under addiction. In most cases. I don't see a burn out sex addict losing essence then dying out.
Maybe creating its own table for it.


When it comes to allergies remember there is common and uncommon.
During the campaign the guy has a moderate allergy to an uncommon substance. Then they talk with the DM about what would be uncommon. The DM is supposed to approve allergies.

Every runner can actually be ambidextrous, its highly unlikly.
FACT: You don't have to be born ambidextrous, anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong.
You can train yourself to be ambidextrous, A friend of mine trained to be ambidextrous.
Being ambiddextrous is not like being double jointed or having the ability to wiggle your ears.
(It really annoys me when people ask me how they can wiggle there ears like I do)


The groupies quality reminds me of the chick magnet quality from the Tenchu RPG game.

[GWCarver]

I like these, especialy glass jaw, keep'em coming.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Digital Heroin]

[ElFenrir]

[emo samurai]

Could you go to the spirit's home plane and kill it?

[Grinder]

[ElFenrir]

[Lord Ben]

[Garrowolf]

one quality I thought would be good would be addiction to lifestyles. Characters may want the high life and hate meeting in warehouses and such. It may be the primary reason for Shadowrunning for them. Different levels of medium and high would cost 5 and 10. They would get will rolls to tolerate the bad conditions but will seek out and try to live at their chosen lifestyle as soon as possible.

Gambling addiction. Have the points based on how much you must put at risk each month, similar to a lifestyle cost but allow them to roll their edge to keep some of it.

[Konsaki]

Neg Qual
Gambling Freak (5/10/15/20)

Each month, just before you pay your lifestyle costs, you must gamble 2000 Nuyen per rank of the quality. (Rank 3 = 6000 Nuyen) The character cannot hold money back if it has it available.
The GM rolls one die to simulate the acts of the character betting the Nuyen either in one sitting or one big game of chance, which ever is better for the story or situation. Check the results table and multiply the Nuyen bet by the percentage listed from the roll. The player cannot spend edge to have this result re-rolled.

6 - 120%
5 - 80%
4 - 60%
3 - 40%
2 - 20%
1 - 0%

If the character fails to bet the full amount required by the negative quality, all dice rolls, except damage resistance and drain, are reduced by 1 die per 2000 not bet. The character suffers this negative modifier until either it bets the full amount or the next bet comes around the following month. (Character bet 2000 out of the 6000 required for Rank 3, character is at a -2 until it completes the requirement.)

[Grinder]

[ElFenrir]

[lorechaser]

[Wakshaani]

Distinctive Style (5 BP)

You just can't help it. Stay low, stay quiet, stay normal? Null that! You gotta be you, baby! Even in the larger-than-life underbelly, there's something about you that always sticks out, or gets stuck out, making you pretty well known. This can be good, this can be bad. The distinction can be something you can hide if you choose, such as gang or Yakuza tatoos, always wearing a Seattle Seahawks jersey no matter where you go, or being "That guy that always clicks his lighter open and closed all day." Whatever it is, people notice it and can use it to track you down. A character can try to hide this on occasion with an Intuition + Willpower (3) roll, but the GM can require it to be bought off or refuse RP Karma bonuses if this becomes commonplace.

Distinctive Style gives anyone searching for you, physically or socially, a +2 dice modifier. Characters with Blandness cannot take Distinctive Style.

Distinctive Style results in +1 Notoriety.

Swimming with Sharks (0 BP)

Swimming with Sharks is a bit different than a typical negative quality. You've taken out a loan with someone or some organization and now you owe 'em, two for one. You may take out from one to ten markers of 5000Y each, but, it costs 10,000Y to buy a marker off. Most Sharks require one marker to be paid off every three months. If a marker due date is missed, treat it as if missing a lifestyle payment... if the check is passed, the character was able to pawn off enough stuff to cover it for now, but a failure can have dire consequences indeed.

Unlike a normal negative quality, Swimming with Sharks may not be bought off with Karma, but may (And in fact must!) be paid off in Nuyen. Swimming with Sharks may also be gained in play with great ease.

Stepped on Toes (10 BP)

A character who Stepped on Toes chooses a GM-approved organization, be it a megacorporation, a crime syndicate, or other organization (Such as Lone Star or the IRS) that he's gotten good and mad. Treat all interactions with this group as if the character had Spirit Bane and they were the Spirit type in question... they live to frag with the poor slot who stepped on their toes. Maybe you knocked up the Don's daughter, maybe you insulted the Obyan's honor, maybe you're a cop-killer, or maybe Ares knows about you and that one time with the thing and needs to make an example. Whatever it is, chummer, you've Stepped on Toes.

Stepped on Toes results in +1 Notoriety.

[lorechaser]

I told them that the guy wasn't really there, it was the other thing!

Stupid Ares.

[Lord Ben]

Another version of stepped on toes could be Vengeful. Pick a corp or organization that wronged you. Shot up your buddy, didn't pay you on a run, etc. Make some type of roll to avoid taking revenge on them when you get the opportunity.

[ElFenrir]

Ok, so far, we have listed....(im just cataloging every couple pages)...that way if they are wanted to be used by people, they can look em up, and see if they fit their game...or if they could use improvements, etc.

Page 1:

Human Throwback (10 pts)
Dain Bramage (15 pts)
Grandstander (20 pts)
Enemy(Variable)
Flashbacks(Variable,5 to 20)
Whore Hound (5 pt)
Groupies (5/10/15/20 pt)
Temper (10 pts)
Glass Jaw (5 pts)

Page 2:
Haunted(5/10/15/20)
Mean as a Rattler (10pts)
Grim Servant O Death (20pts)
Big Britches (5pts)
Gambling Freak (5/10/15/20)
Distinctive Style(5)
Swimming with Sharks (0 BP)
Stepped on Toes (10 BP)

[lorechaser]

Indeed. I'm going to go back and make comments on a few, but I'd really like to see these get ripped apart until at least the majority of the people reading would be okay allowing them in their games....

[ElFenrir]

Well, im leaving soon to a show, but when i come back i might have had enough, errm, mana in me to comment on a few :grinbig:


One Flaw comment i always have...some of the 'someone/thing gunning for character' flaws can be difficult to balance at times i think...because just because ONE character took a flaw, doesnt mean the whole party should be screwed. And some of those high level type of flaws can result in that.

Now, of course, sometimes Gms like to pull 'well, you adventure withh this guy...i can make bad stuff dissapear with you if you turn him in....' etc. But sometimes it runs into trouble...but it could be balanced out with some work.

[hyzmarca]

Not original, but they forgot to port this one over from SR3 so I'll give it a shot.

Borrowed Time -10BP
A character with this flaw suffers from a terminal condition of some sort, which could be natural, technological, mystical, or something else entirely.
At any time, the GM may simply declare that your character dead due to this condition.
The point value of this flaw comes solely from the fact that the player implicitly waves the right to complain about asinine GM fiat deaths, since the GM can always fiat deaths, anyway.

[Jaid]

[Wakshaani]

[PlatonicPimp]

I've always run enemies as contacts with a negative loyalty score, called an emnity rating. The emnity rating goes from 1 to 6, like loyalty, but represents how far the enemy will go to get at your character. Enemies have a connections rating just like contacts do, representing the same thing.

The enemy gives you back a number of points equal to the emnity rating plus the connections rating.

Or in my game it's multiplied, because that's a common house rule I like.

Anyway, the contacts rules can simply be expanded to cover enemies too with little work and a great payoff.

[warrior_allanon]

ooh i like that double P, very very cool idea

[PlatonicPimp]

Thank you. Never call me that again.

[Wakshaani]

[Garrowolf]

Well I like the idea of the edge trait being the only thing that you roll. In each case you would be rolling a gambling skill but even if you win you are likely to spend that too. It all goes back to how addicted you are and how lucky you are.

According to that movie "Two for the money" it is more of a thrill for the gambler to loose then to win anyway.

You might end up with a extra money every once in a while. This could either be the result of critical success of some sort or you could assume that their lifestyle jumps briefly as they party hard.

I had a game where the street sammie had a gambling problem and his bookie was an additional fixer as he had to do extra jobs to work off his debts he kept on gaining!

[Grinder]

Today we decided to start a SR4 campaign finally, so I'm looking for more flaws'n'edges (hence the thread necromancy). I have just checked my beloved Deadlands rulebook and would like to throw these in the mix:

- All Thumbs: you're just not good at B/R skills
- Bloodthirsty: you don't like to make prisoners
- Curious: it can kill the cat...
- Pacifist: well, a classic.
- Heroic: you can't turn down a plea for help
- Loco: you have a mental "illness".
- Poverty: you can't get it with money.

- Brave: mabye gives you bonus Edge?
- Mechanically inclined: you have knack for working with machines & tech
- The Stare & The Voice

I'm not good in giving BP values to these stuff (and it's really late here), so I just post this suggestions and hope that someone will work on them. :)

[ShadowDragon8685]

All Thumbs 5/10 point flaw.

You're just not good at B/R skills. Maybe you never took Shop class, maybe you just plain suck at it, but you're about as handy with your hands as a newborn kitten. As a 5-point flaw, you simply suffer a -2 dice penalty on all B/R skills; as a 10-point flaw, any time you are forced to roll a B/R skill, any result of 1 is an automatic Glitch, and any roll with more than two 1s is a Critical Glitch, no matter how many dice you throw.





Bloodthirsty (20 point flaw)
You don't like to make prisoners - after all, why leave a witness? Any time anyone is under your power whom you have wronged, make a Composure test (3) to avoid killing them. If you fail this test, you must kill them, though the methods thereof are entirely at your discretion.

This flaw does not come with an automatic point of Notoriety, on account of me not thinking you should be extra-hosed for your Flaws beyond the Flaw itself. Anyone with this flaw will soon enough rack up the Noto on their own.



Curious (15 point flaw)
You're a cat, baby. You can never resist investigating something, even if it puts you at risk. Any time you come upon something interesting, interesting being defined as something interesting to you as defined by your background, or as related (even tangenitally) to your job or the surroundings you find yourself in, you need to make a Composure test (3) or you find yourself investigating it, without even realizing it.



Pacifist (20 point flaw)
You don't like fightin', peroid. You won't carry so much as a taser for your own defense, and violence is terrifying to you. You are literally unable to raise a physical resistance to violence against you, being considered Unaware in all forms of combat skills - this includes hand-to-hand, firearms, projectiles, magic (You're considered Unaware for the purposes of any combat spells; this includes Counterspelling), or cybercombat. Furthermore, you must make a Composure test (3) in order to even handle any object, and a Composure test (5) to suggest that others (including summoned spirits or compiled sprites) take hostile action on your behaf or on the behaf of others.



Heroic (15 point flaw)
You can't turn down a plea for help, even if the source may be suspect. You must make a Composure test (4) to turn your back on any cry for help from any source; a source that is already familar to you as a liar or a betrayer gets no such consideration, however.




Loco (10/15/20 point flaw)
You have a mental "illness". Doctors and fancy highfalutin' folk may have all sorts of nifty names for it, but the plain truth is you're fit for the bughouse. You may or may not be all there at any given point at time. At any random time during the game, the DM may call for a sanity check from you - this being a roll of 2d6 that determines how "with it" you are. Consult the following chart:

12: Moment of Presience. All actions you take for the duration of the "Scene" occur at a +2 dice bonus. Hey, life ain't all bad, chummer.
10-11: You're all there, firing on all cylanders and flying on all thrusters. Act normally.
8-9: You're being strange and weird, babbling things that will not make sense until after something has happened. Nevertheless, you have full control of yourself: Act without penalty on all active skills except social skills, which suffer a -2 dice penalty.
5-7: Out there somewhere. You're distracted, on edge and screaming incoherantly about things that make perfect sense to you, but none whatsoever to anyone else. You're not really where you think you are, and things aren't what you think they are. All actions take a -4 dice penalty.
3-4: Completely gone. The DM describes the world to you as he pleases; it needs to have no bearing whatsoever on what's really going on. You act without penalty, but as you cannot distinguish what is real and what is not, you may find yourself "firing" a stick as though it were your Predator, or engaging in swordfighting with a club. The DM will tell you what you think you are doing, but will roll the action that you are really taking.
2: Earth to you, come in you? Are you recieving us, over? You have no control whatsoever over yourself or your perceptions of your surroundings. You merely walk ahead slowly, babbling about things that make no sense, taking bizzare and inane actions.

The variable point cost of this flaw comes from the number of times per game the DM may force a sanity check, and the severity thereof. As a 10 point flaw, the DM may call for only one check per game; as a 15 point flaw, he may call for three. As a 20 point flaw, he may call for sanity checks any time he chooses.



Poverty (15 point flaw)
You can't get it with money. Any time you make money from any source, you must immideately give up half of it to pay for your debts, your loansharks, your expensive habits or nights on the town, whatever. Should you be out of reach of civilization when you make money, the Poverty flaw comes into effect the moment you come into reach of civilization.


Positive qualities:

Brave (20 point edge)
You are one couragous cookie; an example to others. Your life seems to be charmed in that whenever you are acting on impulse, things never seem to happen quite as bad to you. Whenever you're acting on your own or your team's initiative (not the same as initiative turn; whenever you or your team has started an action), anytime you roll dice to resist a hostile action, you are treated as automatically having rolled at least one success.


Mechanically inclined (10 point edge)
You have knack for working with machines and technology. +2 dice to all Build/Repair skill rolls.


The Stare & The Voice (10 point edge)
Maybe you're a parent, maybe you're tough as nails, but for whatever reason, you have the Stare and the Voice. You can intimidate people without even trying, making them pay attention to you out of a gut fear. Any time you make a social roll, roll Intimidation and add the number of net successes as bonus dice to the other social roll. This applies to Intimidation as well.

[Konsaki]

Your Pacifist Flaw, ShadowDragon, needs to be a 5/10.
5 - You cannot be the aggressor and cannot kill anyone unless they are trying to kill you. If your character does kill someone else, he must make a Composure 4 test or suffer a -2 dicepool modifier until the character can 'atone' for his perceived sins.

10 - The character must make a composure 4 test to attack back in self defense and must always use non-lethal force. If your character's actions lead directly or indirectly to the death of another being, then you must make a composure 4 test or be at a -4 dicepool modifier until the character 'atones' for his sins.

Atonement for sins - This is determined by the game master, but can usually boil down to saving another life, other than a team mates. A guard that was gunned down by a teammate during a run and stablised by the pacifist is a good atonement. If something like this situation is not available, the GM makes a call on actions like donating money, working for free for a good cause or just letting the character 'work it out' on his own time by having a negative modifier for a week/month depending on speed of game, level of pacifist and actions which led to the negative modifier.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Read my Pacifist flaw. I mean really read it.

It's absoloute in forbidding you from taking hostile action, even if you are under fire. You have to make a Composure Test (5) to even suggest that others engage in violence, even non-lethal violence.

I think that's worth the 20 points. :)

[lorechaser]

[djinni]

[Konsaki]

You have to remember though that the player is getting BP for the FLAW. You arnt supposed to get anything good out of the FLAW other than the BP, which you get at chargen...
It's like saying that you want something good to come out of the Uncouth flaw even though you get the 20BP already...

Besides, if the character was a 'successful' gambler, he wouldnt have to shadowrun anyways...

[djinni]

[Konsaki]

[ShadowDragon8685]

[Konsaki]

[ShadowDragon8685]

Or of course, those games you smartly "threw" to the House so they didn't kick you out. :)

[djinni]

[Konsaki]

[djinni]

[Kesslan]

[warrior_allanon]

i actually miss my low level enemies, whats more i like whoevers idea it was that they be negetive contacts, up to 5 or 10bp

[ShadowDragon8685]

[Nasrudith]

Here's an idea.

Hatred: 5/10/15/25 The character just cannot get along with a certain group and hates the sight of them. -4 to any social interaction with them other than intimidate, and a composure test of (3) must be made to cooperate with them at all. GMs are encouraged to judge the size of a group apporiate for the campaign.

5 points is for a fairly small group (Specific gang, PHDs, sailors ina land locked campaign, cult, small subculture)
10 for a signifgant group (Specific AAA corperation, mages, hackers, doctors, riggers, Lone Star, Knight Errant)
15 for large group (trolls, elves, orks, wageslaves, corpers, the poor, the cybered, the rich)
20 for an extremely large group, taking up over 50% of the population (human metatype, male or female gender)

[lorechaser]

[Nasrudith]

Okay fixed. I was at first worried it would be too severe. Though I wonder if 20 points is too low now for hating an entire gender or humans. Your going to have trouble with a very large number of people. I guess the only other 35 point flaw, burn out addiction is much worse. Not only having to deal with severe addiction but also slowly losing essense and not getting anything for it.

[lorechaser]

[TCArknight]

Hmmm... a couple I was thinking about (Positive and Negative)

Positive:
Multilingual (10/20 BP) - Character has more than one Native Languages. One additional at 10 BP, two additional at 20 BP

Negative:
Illiterate (-20 BP) - Character cannot read or write

Thoughts, comments?
TC

[ShadowDragon8685]

I don't think another native language is worth more than 5 BP.

[Moon-Hawk]

Well a rating 6 in a language is worth 12BP, so from that perspective 10 is a good deal.
The problem is that most people aren't spending ANY BP on languages, they're using the free knowledge points they get from their logic and intuition. So from that perspective they're not worth it.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Consider that Ambidexterity, the positive quality that lets you fire two guns at once, is only five BP.

Yeah. An extra Native language is only a 5 BPer in my mind.

[lorechaser]

[Butterblume]

[bibliophile20]

I have a positive quality (yes, I know that this isn't really the thread for it) in response to a complaint that I've been hearing about the hacking rules, i.e. that someone like FastJack, supposedly the best hacker in the world, period, only rolls four to six more dice than someone with an average skill of three, which means that he would only have an average of two two three more hits than John Q. Hacker, hardly the sort of power expected of Sir Legendary Hacker.

So, after a bit of consideration:

L33t Hax0r
Cost: 10-15-20 BP
Maybe you were practically raised in the Matrix or even helped build it, or both, but one way or another you're a demi-god of the virtual world, a big fish with big teeth in the virtual sea. For each level you gain an additional die to any and all Matrix actions, and at the 20 BP level you can choose to, instead of the bonus dice, have the threshold lowered by 1, because, damn, you make this look easy!

This quality can only be taken at chargen if the character has all of the skills in the Electronics and Cracking skill groups at a minimum of level 4, with the Hacking skill at a minimum of level 5, and cannot be taken by Technomancers. This Quality can also not be taken in conjunction with any quality that is a direct detriment to Matrix skills, such as Codeblock or Incompetence (Electronics or Cracking skill). This Quality may be combined with Codeslinger.

~*~
Opinions? So, going back to FastJack, we have a Hacking skill of 7, a L33t Hax0r bonus of 3, a Codeslinger bonus of 2, bringing us to 12, plus his personally coded programs, which probably have ratings of 7 or maybe 8, which would give him a total of 19 to 20 dice, which sounds reasonable to me, considering the superhuman level of skill that he reportedly has.

[Spike]

[djinni]

[lorechaser]

See, I don't think the signs are going to require reading either. I think there's a green section, an orange section, a purple section, a red section. And the sign has a green arrow pointing one way, an orange another.

Or you simply pull up your AR map, and select the area you want to go to, and you get an overlay of glittery light that points the way.

It will be an inconvience when you're busting in, and someone messages you. But do people really message in 2070 like that? Or do they simply send a voice-message? I mean, iPhone already has video voicemail planned. 60 years from now, with Commlinks, I think that'll be standard.

Again, I think it's how you see the world of 2070. To me, part of the implied dystopia is that things we take for granted are lost arts.

I point to the fact that you can submit essays in txt as proof. ;)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Reading and writing aren't going to become lost arts, I'm telling you. Sure, the majority of SINless may be, but Joe Wageslave is going to need to be able to read, as is anybody who actually lives and functions inside a city.

[lorechaser]

If the majority of the SINless can't read and write, you're either going to come up with icongraphy to serve them, or miss out on a huge portion of the population.

I'm thinking most corps will come up with something...

[ShadowDragon8685]

[lorechaser]

To some extent. But they have to get their cheap clothes and Squishes somewhere. Maybe the 'raku company store, or Ammo World is all writing, but I think you'll find you can get most of what you want at Stuffer Shack with just pointing.

This is actually a really interesting point, that came up obliquely. ;) This particular flaw defines a lot of what you think your world is like. So while it's 5 points in my game, it may well be 10-20 in yours, which reflects our different outlooks.

[ElFenrir]

Well, Updated Amnesia quality:

Amnesia: 5/10/15/20


Well, you can't remember crap. Higher levels have higher drawbacks. Maybe you were brainwashed, maybe you were injured, maybe you suffered from a bad brain disorder, perhaps a prototype mind-altering spell went wrong, maybe you were abducted by aliens. At any rate, parts of your life simply aren't there...or SOMETHING is there, but it wasn't what happened...

5: The past few years of your life are unaccounted for, or are something else that really happened. You remember, say, your childhood, and your teen years(to a point, depening on age, etc), but theres a chunk missing. The player makes the character, then is encouraged to work with the GM to figure out what REALLY happened during that time. The GM is encouraged to throw a few loops in there without the player's knowledge as well. You might have some unaccounted gear or some folks you dont know how you meant, or might have someone pissed at you and don't know why. Piecing together things is possible, with alot of legwork, a good hacker friend, and the like, though the character might not like what they find...

10: A bit more severe, you're missing(or have falsified) about half your life, and not necessarily in order. You have an idea where some of your skills came from, but not all of them. You might know a language or two you don't remember learning. As above, the player still makes the character, and writes up some background, but the GM has a little more leeway with the background here, and is encouraged to come up with a bit more. Siblings, old spouses, old bosses, people wronged might(and probably will)pop up now and again. This version of the Quality is probably the most used, examples like the 'programmed killer or secret agent'. Character probably is under a different name and ID than his real one, and might confuse the two. They perhaps might have some flashbacks now and then. A portion of Knowledge BP can be handed over to the GM for purchase in some strange knowledge skills for flavor. The character will have a hard time accounting for this missing or falsified part of their life, and most likely will not like what they find when they dig, and might even upset people by digging.

15: While the player in question still mostly creates the character(numerically), the GM has a bit of say here. Assume the player can choose the basics, but a portion of BPs and resources are handed over to the GM for use in choosing, and are kept secret from the player. The character probably remembers nothing of his real name and life, the GM creating 90% of his backstory, with the player in this case throwing a few ideas here. The only thing this character rememeber is probably the past year or two of his life, but no more. Positive qualities(if any) should be chosen by the GM, as should other Negative qualities. Most knowledge skills(save a couple) should be handed over to the GM in this case, and the player only chooses his native language. Very hard to uncover here, because of the amount missing.

20: In this case, GM has full control over the character creation process. The player knows nothing except a few basics written on a dummy sheet...an(extremely probable) fake name, gender(which may or may not be what they started as), race(hey, elf poser/ork poser/human looking exist for a reason), and other odds and ends, with gear that they have no idea how they got, and skills that they don't know, though perhaps they are let on to one or two of VERY recently known ones. They even dont know what they can do, they might have an IDEA, but these people dont remember any more than 6 months of their current life. When in dice tests, player says if they want to try something, and the GM does so. This character has to go through a lot to learn what he has, why he has it, how he has it. GMs should watch out that players do not choose this for the simple fact they are too lazy to make their own character. GMs have a bit of work with this one, having to write a 'real' and 'fake' backstory, the fake given to the player.

Hopefully this works, I always loved the amnesia flaw and would like to bring back an old SR3 character concept i had utilizing it. It takes a little work and some GM/PC collaboration, but i think it can be totally workable. If anything, the one that needs be watched is that 20 point, for reasons of lazy players stated above.

[Moon-Hawk]

edit: okay, you mentioned lazy players, I might've missed that on my first skim though. Sorry. Leaving my post unchanged though; but I'm aware that much of it is agreeing with you.


I like amnesia too, but here's another way to look at it:
Player: "I don't want to write a background, and I don't want to have to deal with any pesky personal attachments like family, I just want to sort of appear and start kicking ass. But if you want to make a secret history for me that surfaces so that the plot will revolve around me and make me the center of attention that's cool. Oh, can I have some extra BP for that?"

Sure, as a GM you can choose to be really mean with the flaw, but as the GM you can choose to be really mean without the flaw, too. I'm not sure amnesia is worth the number of points it's usually given.

Now the version of the flaw where the player gets a blank character sheet and has to figure stuff out, that's a concrete disadvantage (although it still has all the attention grabbing effects I mentioned) and is worth something.

I'm not saying that amnesia isn't a flaw and isn't worth any points, but as much as it would suck for you or I to have no memory, for a PC it's inconvenient, but also usually represents either laziness or a desire for an inordinate amount of attention from the GM. Amnesia can be fun, but it doesn't deserve TOO many points. :-)

Just my 2 centinuyen.

[ElFenrir]

Well, Amnesia always has been one of those flaws that has a bit of controversy in it, and of course, thats because its misused. Incompetence being the biggy, people argue whether someone should just say 'my characters old-school and has Incompetence in tons of mechanical and electronics skills'. Some might say just write it in the background, dont take the points and be done with it, while the other side says incompetence with computers, electronics, cars and the like IS indeed a disadvantage in this time period, and it deserves stuff to offset it.

As it gets mentioned with Ambidexterity, its advantage isnt so big it needs to be worth BP to purchase. Using 2 weapons isnt as advantageous as one might think, and some folks think it matters not what hand is being used. While some say otherwise.

Amnesia can be looked at the same way. Some people might say 'just make up what you want, give the GM a few ideas and let him run with it, for no points either way', and the other camp says 'the amount of stuff that can be in the background can truly hinder the character, and so it should be worth points'. In fact, Amnesia could include other negative qualities that the character has no clue of until it happens. Not knowing your whole life can be a real hinderance to some, to others, not so much.

Dark Secret was another. In this case, the character KNOWS something, and knows that, it cannot, in any case, be uncovered, for whatever reason. It being uncovered could lead to a plethora of other things(Hunted, Hung Out to Dry, family being targeted, friends being targeted, etc.) The 2 points that Dark Secret was awarded, some felt, was way too cheap, since it could possibly lead to thinks MUCH harsher, like Hunted-6. Again, other camp said that too many stereotype emos took this and it was easy to abuse.

Well, really, the same could be said about many positive and negative qualities, when you think about it. There will always be folks who disagree one what constitutes a flaw and what doesnt. :)

[Moon-Hawk]

[ElFenrir]

I rememeber the old days of Fantasy Role-Playing, where your local-boy-done-good fighter raised in a field of flowers in a happy cabin in a well-adjusted family was no different than the dark, brookidn amnesiac fighter who was trained to be an assassin, watched his family horribly tortured and killed, is being chased by 3 kingdoms and a dragon, has 3 dead fiancees and a pet dog that haunts him as they live in a fungi-infested cave in hiding. The only 'advantages' and 'disadvantages' were the minus 1 to Cha and 1+ to Con your dwarf got for being tough but gruff, and the level limits that were a tradeoff for a multi-century lifespan and thermographic vision. :grinbig:

Then in the TSR days kits came out, which gave variants of character that had BUILT IN advantages and disadvantages to balance each other out.

Somewhere down the line someone came up with the bright idea of 'customizing' your old advantages and disadvantages, dividing the camp into the new kids who liked this customizing idea, and the grognards who wanted their cursed fungus cave living fighter the old fashioned way.

Eventually someone came up with the idea of having them worth 'points' rather than other advantages/disadvantages, so people could purchase advantages at the cost of other things or have a ton of bonuses for living cursed and haunted in a cave of glowing possesed fungi.

Edges and Flaws were born, while half the world rejoiced, the other half condemed the hundreds of toothpick-allergic amnesiac badgerphieliac assassins that cropped up.

The battle continues to this day. :grinbig:

[Moon-Hawk]

Hahaha!
Bravo, ElFenrir. Nice explanation.

[Dashifen]

Sig!

[ShadowDragon8685]

[SoyKaf Adict]

I found this topic out of shear coincidence looking for Yakuza stuff... And it just so happened to be in one of the posts. 1 word searches for the lose! But I found this and lurked it for an hour reading over all the positive and negative qualities created I'd like to add a few... I'll admit most of them are just concoctions of mine, and some of them affect the party and I've all ready heard people saying qualities that affect the party rather than just the person are lame, but I think these are less taxing and more fun to work with on most levels.

Unknown Cyberware: 2-10 BP

The character is the average Shadow Runner, but in the mix of StreetDocs and DocWagons a lot of them don't remember most of the procedures, but damn if her leg doesn't itch something fierce after that last gash! The character has a "hitch-hiker" implant that takes up essence normally, but the character has no recollection of having the privilege of giving the "O.K." Such lower BP gain implants might be cortex bombs with a short fuse or embedded in your madula oblongata, surveillance material systems hardwired to your nervous system, and the simple such things that can be removed, if you're fast enough. Some of the higher BP gain implants are those that Corps have groomed to make some hellish experiments come to life. Toxin pumps, nano virus fail-safes, thought and emotion blockers, area EMP and cortex bombs, etc...

(I gave it a range because it depends how quickly the fail-safe cortex bomb goes off after you access the data in that hidden Datajack (Thank you SNES ShadowRun) is entirely up to the GM, as is the set back to when it finally runs down the timer. Once it's gone it's gone, thus why it can go so low. This should definitely be consulted with them.)

The Lemon: 2/5 BP

Okay, so you decided you buy the cheap one... Big mistake! One important item the character bought was a bad buy and he doesn't know about it... yet. Whether it be Cybernetics he didn't know were hand-me-downs, A Focus that's got one too many cracks in it or the sedan that doesn't cruise so well after a few miles on the odometer. The item in question won't be useful all the time and will cease to function on occasion at 2 BP, at 5 BP the item will actually break at a very inopportune moment. This must be placed on an item that will have significant set backs if it is broken. Never buy from street vendors, how many times have I told you!?

(A musing, like a mild Gremlins, best possibility is with Amnesia or if the GM decides to give the character a nice extra 2/5 BP and tacks this little baby on and let the good times... not happen.)

Greenhorn Hopeful: 5 BP

Every cloud has it silver lining, every person gets their fair share, every piece of drek gets fed into the characters ears they take from anyone with a lick of experience compared to them they take like it's the fraggin' 16th Edition of the Bible in gold plating, and it gets irritating real quick. The Greenhorn Hopeful is new to the biz, and everyone knows it. Asking questions, and sticking by the character that mostly resembles their ideal of the word "hero" is what they're good at, and whoever is bound with the lovely task of dealing with this pecker wood gets the short straw. -3 to dice pool in social situations where the party is involved and they're present. On the other hand, fun times have been had at the expense of the newbie, especially if the "hero" is malevolent in teaching his would-be pupil. A Composure Test of Intuition + Willpower(4) can stay their hands and mouths for a little while... But it's only a matter of time.

(This I find is a humorous and fun negative quality even though it makes the party suffer it allows them to get back, heh, being at the mercy of all the "hero's" tutelage. It also adds role-playing fun when they're at a seedy bar in the Barrens talking to a rough Johnson and Purity Princess 2070 orders a hot chocolate.)

Tweaked: 5 BP

The character in question is not insane, not crazy, not odd in anyway... Until he decides something's worth shootin' and that's everything. Some call it trigger happy, some call it jumpy... But it's really just labeled Wired Reflexes without the benefit of aiming. Tweaked characters make cool diplomatic situations turn into heated bullet-filled debates. Any time there's a stand-off, a sound mistaken for a guard on a stealth mission, or the shoot-first-ask-questions-later interrogation method applies... The Tweaked character makes smooth situations turn into sandpaper and is almost always the first to pull for his gun, doesn't mean he shoots it off first though. Composure Test Logic + Willpower(4) will keep him from doing something TOO stupid. -5 to social dice pool when trying to calm tensions between parties and the character is present.

(Heh... Good luck with this one. You might think that though Tweaked and Greenhorn Hopeful cost the same BP they're not costing appropriately, it's because the calming of tension is very specified, the social penalty applies for ALL rolls where the Greenhorn can muck things up while being amidst conversation. That's the difference.)

Big Mouth Small Gun: 10/15 BP

The big mouth is a dying breed... And there's a reason... They like to talk drek, and then it comes back at them in the form of a lot of sharp things and bullets. Not only do they talk drek but ALL of this clan claim the wondrous ability to not be intimidating at all. This character is classified as Unaware for all Intimidation rolls, and is labeled as being under Rat's teachings when a fight turns out. The character must use his first initiative action to find cover and stay there. They make the same willpower test but the threshold is 3 + each combatant to even think about shooting. At 15 BP the drek talk must happen at every opportunity that presents itself, and the character is always considered Assisting in a team roll when another character uses intimidation, roll 1d6 on a 1-3 he critically glitches for his assistance. Followers of Rat that take this pay either 5 or 10 BP respectively.

(Brackit picks up the drug dealer, "Tell me where your boss is, or else!" Chuckles noticing the gun has been forcibly removed from the dealer's hand finally gets his courage back, "Yeah! Or Brackit here is gonna butter your bread!" The drug dealer's face shifted from terror to amused disbelief, as Brackit looked slowly at Chuckles with a mix of contempt and utter loathing. "We'll talk later..." The drug dealer laughing in the background, Chuckles suddenly became 5 inches shorter behind the bar counter.)


Please comment on modifications to the BP gain and such, I need more opinions on the disadvantages. They seem acceptable and not totally or extremely detrimental, but definitely annoying.

[ornot]

[Nasrudith]

New Flaw: Street Stupid 10 BP
Your character hasn't exactly grown up remotely near the street and doesn't pay much attention to popular culture. All street knowledge skills cost double karma, and are treated as unaware if no ranks are possessed. In addition the character receives a -4 penalty to the etiquette dice pool when dealing with the street level. (GM descresion, but gangers, prositutes, panhandlers, apply.) Finally the character cannot start with lower than middle lifestyle.

[Omer Joel]

Dependent
Bonus: 5 or 15 BPs
A character with the Dependent quality has a loved one who depends on her for support and aid. This could be a child, a parent, a spouse, a sibling, an old friend or even, in some extreme cases, a pet. The character has to devote time and resources to the care of her dependent; the dependent migt also serve as a point of leverage against the character by her enemies. If this negative quaity is taken at a 5-BP level, it represents a dependent who, while needing the character's suppot in enral, can take care of himself most of the time (examples for this would be unemployd spouses or children beyond the age of 10). At a 15-BP level, the dependent cannot take care of himself, and the character must either tend to the dependent's needs around the clock or hire someone else to do so (examples for this would be young children or very elderly and disabled parents).

Day Job
Bonus: 5, 10, 15 or 20 BPs
The character has a "real" job besides shadowrunning, which burdens him with responsibilitis and robs away a portion of his time. However, such a job also confers some advantages - the job arns te character some nuyen, it could serve as a cover for shadow-activity, it might be helpful for money-laundering, and it might give the character a good place to meet new contacts.

[ElFenrir]

[bibliophile20]

[ShadowDragon8685]