Criminal SIN flaw, who, exactly, gets one? Options

[Moon-Hawk]

Don't say criminals, smart-guy!
Seriously, my question is who gets a Criminal SIN (and the 10-point negative quality) as opposed to a regular SIN.
Is it:
1) Any SINner with any crime on their record?
2) Any SINner with a felony on their record?
3) Only former SINless who are assigned a criminal SIN as part of their first incarceration?

#1 is clearly crap, IMO. #3 is also obvious. My question is really about #2. If a regular SINner is arrested and convicted of a felony, do they get a criminal SIN, or just have their regular SIN with a criminal record?

Corollary question: What, precisely, is the difference between a criminal SIN and a regular SIN? I believe the criminal SIN has some restricted rights, but like what?

Thanks.

[Serbitar]

My definition of criminal SIN:

They have all your biometric data and a crime connected to it.

Has nothing to do with SIN, as you can always buy a faked one.

[Zen Shooter01]

I interpreted it to mean that a criminal SIN is a regular SIN. Except that the records attached to it include felony conviction(s).

It means the PC is lugging around a criminal record.

[DireRadiant]

p. 83

SINner
Bonus: 5 or 10 BP
Th e character was born with or somehow acquired a legal
System Identifi cation Number, or SIN (see Identifi cation, Please,
p. 258). Th is means the character’s real identity, personal history,
biometric data, credit records, medical history, travel history, etc.
are stored and accessible in numerous databanks. Th is does not
mean the character is required to use that SIN, merely that a legal
record of him does exist (and may serve as a detriment some day).
At 5 BP, the character has a standard SIN and is a bona fi de
citizen of the nation or extraterritorial megacorp of his choice. At
10 BP, the character has a criminal SIN, meaning that the character
also has a verifi able criminal record on fi le, and likely served
prison time in the past. As many law enforcement agencies share
their data, this means that character is more likely to be identifi ed
if linked to a crime.

----------------------------------

You may wish to think about circumstances in which having this negative quality matters.

- Someone using a Fake SIN submits a biometric sample that is run against a Law Enforcement database for verification.

- Someone uses a Fake SIn to buy a gun, but no biometric data is submitted for verification.

There are just SINs. A Criminal SIN increases the odds of a fake sin failing, and the real identity being revealed. It isn't a different type of number.

Criminal SIN = SIN = SINner

However the odds fo the real SIN being determined go up with a criminal one simply because there is more data available and shared between systems.

[cetiah]

#3. #2 and #1 do not apply.
Giving someone a Criminal SIN means taking away someone's valid SIN. Think about it. Your life, your birth data, your personal profiles, your birth certificate, your prepaid rent, your matrix subscriptions, your matrix-held files, your job, all gone in the blink of an eye for one felony? I don't think so.

Effectively, you can't do any of these things without a SIN. They can't keep records of you. So if you don't have one (#3), they give you one.

If a SINless needs to do one of these things, he needs a fake SIN.

But yeah, it's only option #3. They won't assign you a fresh new SIN unless its strictly necessary. Otherwise, they'll just attach the criminal record onto your existing SIN.

[Moon-Hawk]

[cetiah]

I'm pretty sure it was in the history/timeline fluff that explained when they had to start issuing them. In any case, they're only given to SINless, which was a result of the Matrix Crash, I believe. I'm a bit hazy on that last part. I'll find quotes for you when I get home later tonight.

[X-Kalibur]

SINless can get a criminal SIN if they are imprisoned, they make up a new SIN based solely on this and link it to any other ID they can find on you.

[cetiah]

[Cheops]

In our games we generally consider the Criminal SIN to mean that you have less protection under the law. This means that Habeus Corpus can be waived if the police have reason to do so. In other words, they can detain you indefinitely without having to charge you with anything. At least until some public rights group gets involved or the courts finally get around to giving you legal aid. The Star in Seattle generally don't hold people too long because it looks bad. In a place like Aztlan you could spend your life in jail because you looked at a cop the wrong way.

There's also other hassles present. Such as cops randomly stopping you to check your gear and SIN. Being brought in for questioning for other cases that you might have a connection to (such as contacts or prior associations), or even just occasional sweeps of the streets of the Barrens.

[Moon-Hawk]

I assume you're talking about:

[cetiah]

[Butterblume]

I always thought only SINless get a criminal SIN, when being 'booked' by the police. Note: they don't really have to have committed a crime, just being a suspect is enough (or maybe someone even gets a criminal SIN for being a confidental informant who is SINless - they need to identify you somehow, after all).

Someone with a SIN would then have a criminal record, not a criminal SIN.

[WhiskeyMac]

So someone who commits a felony is suddenly allowed to be abused and declined protection from the police? How does that make sense? Someone who steals 100 nuyen or more has just committed a felony and now can be hassled and detained by the police indefinitely without reason. I don't think so. That's bullshit. It's possible that they might do that for sex offenders, murderers or bank robbers but I seriously doubt that they would do that for someone who assaulted their significant other while drunk. They might treat them with less respect but I don't think they would detain them indefinitely after a traffic stop.

A Criminal SIN is just a red flag that pops up and lets people know that you did something you shouldn't have done. Something like stole a pack of cigarettes from a Stuffer Shack, assaulted your boyfriend, or even just have to many unpaid tickets that could result in a warrant or arrest the next time you get pulled over.

I think for someone who is SINless they probably will issue a probationary citizen SIN with a criminal record attached when and if that SINless person gets arrested. But to be given free reign to harass and abuse upstanding citizens who had a small bump in their background is bulldrek.

[Cheops]

Stealing 100 nuyen is a felony? I'm pretty sure that is only a misdemeanor or else US law is a lot harsher than Canadian law. Theft under a 1000 isn't a big deal up here and usually the stiffer penalties would be under tort or civil law not criminal law.

Besides which SR is a dystopic world. Being caught stealing 100 nuyen could be a reason enough to curtail social liberties. However, the tax bracket of the individual will have a huge effect on the likelihood of a) getting a criminal SIN, and B) what the cops will do to you if you have one.

Let's say SINless man steals a chocolate bar. He now gets a criminal SIN and a slap on the wrist. Cops suspect someone in his neighborhood of being a shadowrunner. They send out patrols and start bringing in everyone they can get their hands on including our chocolate stealer.

Senator's son is accused of raping and killing 10 SINless hookers. He gets a criminal SIN and a slap on the wrist. Whenever the cops find a dead hooker they come to his house and politely ask his lawyer if he'll answer some questions over some tea.

SINless Sam gets caught with loads of restricted and forbidden items including cyberware. The cops believe that he was involved in a recent kidnapping on SK territory but can't pin it on him. He serves his time for the illegal goods and gets released with a criminal SIN. Anytime that SK reports a crime on their territory or one of his known associates is implicated in a crime the Sam gets brought in for questioning and held until the cops decide they can't get anything else out of him.

Later, the Sam is at Pike's Place Market buying some real coffee beans from Starbucks and nice halibut fillet for dinner. Someone starts shooting and the cops arrive. They automatically arrest him without pressing charges and question him. A few hours later, a human rights watchdog group puts enough pressure on the county courts to have him released.

It's a question of degrees. All of these sound plausible to me in SR.

[cetiah]

[DireRadiant]

cetiah

"At
10 BP, the character has a criminal SIN, meaning that the character
also has a verifi able criminal record on fi le, and likely served
prison time in the past. As many law enforcement agencies share
their data, this means that character is more likely to be identifi ed
if linked to a crime."

I make note of the word "also has a verifiable criminal record..."

There is no Criminal SIN versus SIN. There's only a SIN with or without a criminal record attached.

Yes, when your Lone Star Officer Friendly grabs you for some crime and finds out you have no SIN at all, they might possibly issue you a brand new SIn that starts with a criminal record attached, but it isn't a different kind of SIN. (Or more likely when they find you don't have a SIN at all... well, no one knows what happens to the SINless right?)

Something to think about... Does Lone Star Officer Friendly put the credstick into the Criminal SIN or regular SIN reader slot?

[cetiah]

[Cheops]

While I like Cetiah's long explanation about Criminal SINs I have to agree with DireRadiant that they are not different types of SINs. They are SINs that have a criminal record.

Now think about how people are treated in RL. I remember coming home from Australia from my dad's wedding a couple of years ago. I flew into LAX for a 12 hour (ugh) lay-over until my flight to Vancouver. Quantas arrived at the same time as an Air India flight. It took forever to get through customs because every brown person with an Indian passport had to answer 20 questions and stand nice and still for facial recognition software. Customs took one look at my pasty white face and Canadian passport and waved me through with nothing more than a brisk stamping and a "Have a nice stay in America!"

I had a friend in university who was a Indonesian hindu. However, she was dark skinned. Her family mostly lives in Pittsburg. Whenever she would go to visit and come back from here visit she would have to go through an interrogation by customs and have ALL her bags searched.

Imagine if any of those "non-White" people had criminal records. They probably would be stuck in the limbo that is an airport between the arrival gate and customs (basically "no man's land"). Eventually they would be sent back to their country of origin or grudgingly let in if authorities thought they posed no threat.

Now imagine that the cops had the same rights to do what customs officers can do. Constantly and instantly check everyone's ID against all law-enforcement databanks and civic records. Any suspicious activities would garner police interest and a resulting hassle. If the person were in LA probably not too much would happen beyond some on the scene questioning. How about Montgommery, Alabama? Probably the cop would take them to the precint "just to make sure." Eventually some watchdog group that was monitoring the cops would pick up on this and apply pressure to release the individual but they'd still be there for several hours.

Multiply all this by n to see how bad it would be to have a "criminal" profile in SR. An extreme example might be the America portrayed in Day 6 of "24." Discuss.

[Butterblume]

So, some of you are saying, if a SINless wants to have a legal SIN, he just have to commit a minor crime, and he's issued one (altough tainted by a criminal record)?

I don't think so. Today, an illegal immigrant who has committed a crime isn't granted citizenship either.

[PBTHHHHT]

[DireRadiant]

[Butterblume]

[DireRadiant]

[cetiah]