But it's a question of the definition of what a criminal SIN is. For all we know, it is simply a regular SIN with a felony record. There is no taking away your SIN giving you a whole new one as you describe, it's just adding a single flag to the SIN you already have which makes it a criminal SIN.

I'm not saying I'm 100% sure this is how it works, but if you have a quote or something that makes you 100% sure I want to see it.

Maybe you're just stating a theory, but from the tone of your post it sounds like you're pretty darn sure.

The following text is just my opinion based on my reading of the BBB:

I don't think they link it to anything. I'm pretty sure every Criminal SIN is exactly the same as far as its legal status, contents, comments, etc. They're simply not going to go through any extra work. Whatever they already have uncovered while arresting you, they attach it to your criminal SIN so they have a way to file it. The only thing else they add is your name, biometric data, and conviction information. The criminal SIN determines what matrix sites you can access, what places you can live, what kind of credit you can establish, what type of products you can buy and when, even what roads you're allowed to commute on. In all cases, it's not much, but its exactly the same for each criminal SIN. If you try to use the SIN in certain neighborhoods or at certain border patrol points for any reason, it may immediately alert local authorities.

I imagine there's a legal procedure to making changes to your criminal SIN (to allow you to leave the country, for example) but the policies are highly prohibitive, take a long time, and usually won't work without a hefty amount of bribing. Of course, for a little more bribing, you can get a fake SIN...

Which lists #3 as certainly one of the ways to get a criminal SIN, but it does not say that it is the only way to get one. If A then B does not imply If B then A, in other words.

DireRadiant's quote says that a criminal SIN means the character has a criminal record on file. Now that's not explicit, and it could possibly be referring only to option#3, but seems to imply to me option #2 as well.

I'm not going to keep that as my only piece of evidence, but yes, it was the part I was thinking about from the history so let's work with this until I get more quotes for you.

The quotation marks around "criminal SIN" kind of so this for me. It imples a special cimcumstance or exception, a one-time sort of deal. It is not just another type of SIN, because that would be a Criminal SIN or CSIN. That is, "criminal SINs" are not standard, they're not usual. Thus, this alone at least implies (does not prove) inductively that this is the ONLY condition in which they assign a "criminal SIN" and the "criminal SIN" effectively does not exist outside of this situation.

A SINless person in the wireless world is a contradiction. Everyone has a SIN. Except you don't. You're no where in the system. But everyone has a SIN. But you don't. Agghhh, my head's going to explode. Okay, we'll just create a procedure so we can add a new SIN for "you types". There, you have a criminal SIN. The world makes sense again.

---

The answer to all of your above questions is "YES", Lone Star (or whoever) can hastle anyone with a criminal SIN. It doesn't mean its right, it just is the way it is. In fact, a criminal SIN is nothing more than big red flag saying "Restrict me, please". It was given to you courtesy of the local authorities who feel every decent citizen should carry a flag around. A criminal SIN isn't just some guy who commits a criminal act. It takes a special kind of person to be awarded a criminal SIN, a special sort that we don't like very much anyway.

There is only one way in any book in any edition to earn a criminal SIN, and that's if you don't already have a SIN. And there's a very good reason you would need to issue one in this case: you can't book a criminal who doesn't exist. That's like trying to arrest Santa Claus for breaking and entering. What would happen if he was actually caught? He has no identification, no history on file, no finger prints on file, nothing; it's as if someone just made him up. So what do we do? We make a new file, we take some fingerprints, we file away the arrest warrant; we now have a searchable database entry with "Santa Claus" in it. If Santa ever needs to prove his identity, say to get an apartment in Florida, he can point to his datatrail of criminal processing as proof that he clearly exists and yes that is his name and picture right there.

Let's talk about the SINless for a minute. Specifically, a SINless that is arrested by Lone Star for whatever reason. Without a SIN, you're no one. Nothing. A non-person. You don't even have the rights given to spirits and critters. Lone Star doesn't know what to do with you. You're can't even really be officially arrested because you have no rights or responsibilities. They can't even enter you into their penal system. You don't have a right to a trial. You don't have the right to representation or to own property or to anything. You don't exist. They can kill you and it isn't murder. At best, it's damaging public property or creating a public nuisance. Think about it. You don't even have a bank account, and since all money is done by electronic transfer you can't even bribe you're way out. Likely, the only way you've been living is using someone else's SIN or having a fake SIN made.

The system wasn't made to oppress people without a SIN. It's just that the system wasn't made with SINless people in mind. The assumption is that everyone who didn't have a SIN would file for one immediately. And most did.

Because Lone Star knows that there are people with these lack of SINs and that the current "system" isn't made to accomodate these people, they have petitioned for a special right to grant criminal SINs. (It's not that special a right; most corporations of Lone Star's size can grant SINs.) This criminal SIN affords you the minimal rights needed to live and function in society, as based on Lone Star's definitions, to be detained, searched, confess, have a trial, testify in trial, and all sorts of stuff you can't really do if you're a non-person.

Now compare this to Crash Everett, an inventive fixer who gets pulled over for a traffic violation in which 10 sinless people get run down and killed. The copper runs the SIN, and it turns out his SIN is faked, and after a little investigation they discover that he has a legal SIN registered under the name Alan Greenspan. Step out of the vehicle please. Hands on your head, you piece of drek. Enter all the little bits of harrassment, police brutality, and subtle demands for bribery you want at this point. We'll assume Alan gets charged a felony and spends a couple months in jail and has to pay a hefty fine, assuming there's no corp with an interest in keeping him at work. So after it's all said and done, poor Alan has lost his fake SIN and he has a felony and a minor traffic violation on his SIN, along with full details. He does *not* have a Criminal SIN, and he still has all the rights, priveleges, and information recorded to him as he did before, minus any rights that specifically exclude felons or traffic violators.

A SIN is not an object. It's a file on the matrix. That's like asking if the vehicle's plate number or VIN # would fit better in the fax machine...

(not ignoring the rest of the post, just still considering it...)

Nope, no citizenship, but their name, age, physical characteristics would be in the system for future cross references by the the agency or other agencies.

I view a SIN and criminal SIN as both being records for an individual, (electronic paperwork) that is in the system. So if you leave physical evidence behind it's in the record. They'll likely check the criminal records (hence why having the Criminal SIN is bad) first and foremost. Probably some checks and such before they can access regular SIN records to cross with the physical evidence.

I see the criminal SIN has a record for a person that is flagged as being a priority that a law enforcement agency should check with for any evidence of crimes, etc.

Are you assuming the illegal immigrant didn't have a legal identity to begin with?

Not until you asked, but for the purpose of this discussion, Yes.

There are two cases to consider for a non citizen of the jurisdiction issuing the criminal records.

The non citizen has no other legal citizenship or jurisdiction or legal records. Yet the local jurisdiction wishes to maintain records of this criminal, do they not issue any ID at all?

The non citizen has a legal identity in another jurisdiction. In this case the crimical record is simply associated with that SIN.

I was wondering when someone is going to bring this up.

The illegal immigrant of today (assuming any industrialized country you like) is not a citizen, and doesn't enjoy all the rights of citizenship. He does, however, still have rights. He has the right to own property, for example. He has the right to self-identity. In the United States, he would have the right to freedom of expression (more or less), a right to keep and spend money, and a right to come and go as he pleases (within obvious restrictions).

A SINless doesn't have these rights. His money is kept in a matrix account and without a SIN there is no account. He can't own property because he can't register his identity onto the matrix.

Poltce can't *ahem* brutalize illegal immigrants because they have rights, but the SINless don't.

I don't know what its like living in a non-industrialized country or being an illegal immigrant, but I assume the current non-citizen status is a step up from whatever they'd face back home, especially if they had no legal identity to begin with.

My conclusion:


SINless = rights of most local dogs or birds in area today in Real World
Criminal SIN = rights of most illegal immigrants or criminal felons today in Real World (or better yet, both)
SIN = The "happy people" who live within the system and do not rebel against it.

While we're at it:

Fake SIN = a rebel pretending to be a happy twit. Always has a "SINless", "Criminal SIN", or "SIN" in addition to this condition, but its a secret as long as this Fake SIN exists.

lol

Okay, clearly I'm in the minority here and I can't seem to find the sections I was referring to earlier.

I would like to point out something with the above:

"10 BP, the character has a criminal SIN, meaning that the character
also has a verifiable criminal record on file, and likely served
prison time in the past. "

This clearly proves that one does not have to go to prison to get a criminal SIN. Only that you have a criminal record.

Furthermore, in older editions of Shadowrun, the Lone Star supplement which dealt with nothing but law enforcement and related matters clearly stated that the criminal SIN is issued for Lone Star to even begin the process of booking you, before you are even sent to a long term jail or bail is even set. So yes, you can get a criminal SIN just for being accused. Basically, there's no reason a person should be without a SIN as far as Lone Star is concerned.

Sadly, that book doesn't clear up the other issues in this thread. I'll try looking again tomorrow...

Yeah but that means that you had to be SINless when you immigrated. Otherwise all the info on your previous SIN should have transfered over. Basically, the way I see it, when you immigrate to a new country in SR the basically take your passport, erase "Canada" from the nationality line, and write "United States" in its place. All they have to do is change the country tags and voila! It's still the exact same SIN but different nation now.

Nah wouldnt quite work that way because you'd still have your SIN from the other country/corp. Some of the info would be transfered over, but with the totally different privacy laws in different jurisdictions etc you'd definately have some info you could get away with not having on the SIN or, hell on that other SIN it might not even have a 'field' for that particular question.