Navy equivalent of a Supply Sergeant?, for a contact Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[tisoz]

What is the Navy equivalent of a Supply Sergeant? I want to use one as a contact. If it matters if ashore or at sea, then ashore.

[Sir_Psycho]

Could it be quartermaster?

[Ancient History]

Purser handles monies and the like in UCAS and CAS navies, and would be either a petty officer or warrant officer position. General goods and equipment would fall under Supply as normal.

[Fix-it]

[mfb]

not sure about what section they'd be in (or what the Navy calls sections), but his rank would be Petty Officer 2nd class (E-5), Petty Officer 1st Class (E-6), or Chief Petty Officer (E-7). i suppose you might get one that's a Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8). E-7 is the best bet for a contact.

[Ancient History]

[tisoz]

Thanks alot guys! :)

[Thain]

Possible ratings would be Postal Clerk (PC), Quartermaster (QM), Storekeeper (SK), and Yeoman (YN)... Depending on exactly what you need him to have access to. The Navy has a heckuvalot more ratings than the Coast Guard (probably so they canmake themselves look more impressive and get more money from Congress). But these should do... dependingon what you need.

A Yeoman, for example, performs secretarial and clerical work. Which can be pretty darned important actually. Can you imagine the milage you could get out of a high Loyalty-rating Contact that works as an Admiral's secretary?

Postal Clerks, naturally, handle the postal (mail) service for the whole dang military branch (Navy or Coastie). They are even more overworked and underappreiccated than civilian postal employees, and are fully trainned to use assault rifles. Do not piss them off. If these guys can get your mother's blueberry muffins mailed from Iowa to Iraq, and back, do you really think they can't dispose of your body? Hmmm?

For access to supplies, the "go to" rating is not going to be a Quartermaster! Quartermasters assist the navigator and officer of the deck (OOD), to steer the ship, take radar bearings, and what not.

Storekeepers are the Coast Guard's (and those wimpy Navy guy's) supply clerks. They see that needed supplies are available, from uniforms to food to munitions. But bear in mind, weapons and the like are all rigidly accounted for... if you want to get bullets and firearms out of a military base, you better have a very highly placed contact!

In order to fall into the rating structure, you have to be an enlisted serviceman, officers are to busy "leading" or something :P . That means pay grades E-4 (Petty Officer Third Class) through E-9 (Master Chief Petty Officer) are going to have ratings. Although, for overseeing a small base or a single ship, your probably going to be looking at an E-7 (Chief Petty Officer). Incidentally, I beleive that the Army equivelent of an E-7 is a Sergeant First Class. To the Marines (y'know,the women's department of the Navy), an E-7 is a Gunnery Sergeant.

I have no idea how the other branches handle their MOS titles and job duties. Although, I imagine the Marines and the Army have some way todifferentiate between the Sergeant-Who-Handles-The-Mail and the Sergeant-Who-Handles-The-Motor-Pool.

Each rating has its official abbreviation, which I hinted at above, plus its official rank. So, if Thad Allen was a Chief Petty Officer and a Storekeeper, he'd be called "Chief Storekeeper Allen" (verbally) or "SKC Allen" (in writing). Although it would be perfectly fine to call him "Chief" in an informal context.

(FYI, Thad Allen is actually not a SKC... he's an Admiral, and the current Commandant of the Coast Guard. Here's hoping he doesn't read DSF....)

Semper Paratus!

[tisoz]

[Kyoto Kid]

...Procurement Officer.

This was Night Angel's fixer.

[Zolhex]

Here is a list of ranks and what not maybe it'll help.

U.S. Army
Pay Grade Title
E-1 Private
E-2 Private 2
E-3 Private First Class
E-4 Specialist
Corporal
E-5 Sergeant
E-6 Staff Sergeant
E-7 Sergeant First Class
E-8 Master Sergeant
First Sergeant
E-9 Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major
E-9 Sergeant Major of the Army
special
W-1 Warrant Officer One
W-2 Chief Warrant Officer Two
W-3 Chief Warrant Officer Three
W-4 Chief Warrant Officer Four
W-5 Master Warrant Officer Five
O-1 Second Lieutenant
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-3 Captain
O-4 Major
O-5 Lieutenant Colonel
O-6 Colonel
O-7 Brigadier General
O-8 Major General
O-9 Lieutenant General
O-10 General

U.S. Air Force
Pay Grade Title
E-1 Airman Basic
E-2 Airman
E-3 Airman First Class
E-4 Senior Airman or Sergeant
E-5 Staff Sergeant
E-6 Technical Sergeant
E-7 Master Sergeant
E-8 Senior Master Sergeant
First Sergeant
E-9 Chief Master Sergeant
First Sergeant
E-9 Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force
special
O-1 Second Lieutenant
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-3 Captain
O-4 Major
O-5 Lieutenant Colonel
O-6 Colonel
O-7 Brigadier General
O-8 Major General
O-9 Lieutenant General
O-10 General

U.S. Navy
Pay Grade Title
E-1 Seaman Recruit
E-2 Seman Apprentice
E-3 Seaman
E-4 Petty Officer 3rd Class
E-5 Petty Officer 2nd Class
E-6 Petty Officer 1st Class
E-7 Chief Petty Officer
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer
E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer
E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
special
W-2 Chief Warrant Officer
W-3 Chief Warrant Officer
W-4 Chief Warrant Officer
O-1 Ensign
O-2 Lieutenant, Junior Grade
O-3 Lieutenant
O-4 Lieutenant Commander
O-5 Commander
O-6 Captain
O-7 Rear Admiral, Lower Half (sometimes Commodore)
O-8 Rear Admiral, Upper Half
O-9 Vice Admiral
O-10 Admiral

U.S. Marines
Pay Grade Title
E-1 Private
E-2 Private First Class
E-3 Lance Corporal
E-4 Corporal
E-5 Sergeant
E-6 Staff Sergeant
E-7 Gunnery Sergeant
E-8 Master Sergeant
First Sergeant
E-9 Master Gunnery Sergeant
Sergeant Major
E-9 Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps
special
W-1 Warrant Officer One
W-2 Warrant Officer Two
W-3 Warrant Officer Three
W-4 Warrant Officer Four
W-5 Warrant Officer Five
O-1 Second Lieutenant
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-3 Captain
O-4 Major
O-5 Lieutenant Colonel
O-6 Colonel
O-7 Brigadier General
O-8 Major General
O-9 Lieutenant General
O-10 General

[Thain]

The rank list is useful, but in the Navy you also need to know the rating for every E-4 and above. Granted, its an RPG not the final exam at NAVOCS... Just make up a name that sounds offical, and you should be good to go.

This being Shadowrun, blackmarket weapons should be obtainable from a military contact. But you should have a pretty stron loyalty rating, imho. Watch Lord of War and look how Yuri (Nic Cage) exploits his Uncle's access to a masssive post-Soviet stockpile.

[SL James]

[Ancient History]

[Kagetenshi]

With all due respect, that was an extremely weak counter.

~J

[Thain]

Settle down gents, I was just offering up the idea that overly focusing on the details of an NPC aren't too important. Plus, SR is set decades in the future with wholly different nations. The rank strucutre could have shifted, and who really cares if NPC #14 is a "Staff Sergeant" or a "Senior Sergeant".

Heck, getting ranks wrong has a grand tradition in sci-fi, from Battlestar Galactica to Star Trek to Zeta Gundam.

SL James was just, I think, poking gentle fun at this fact. This is not a military sim rpg, it doesn't matter a great deal.

[toturi]

[fistandantilus4....]

I'm pretty sure tisoz was interested in getting his question answered, and not AH's ability to verbally spar with James. At least I'm hoping...

moving on...

[Kagetenshi]

[Crakkerjakk]

@Thain

[Thain]

Kagetenshi: You are right, it is very easy to look up. In fact, I know you can find the rank and rating structure in any good encyclopedia. That said, Tisoz asked here on DSF, and we helped him out.

I added, as an aside, that it was a minor detail and no one should feel bothered by getting it a bit wrong. Life is too short to worry about the number of stripes on an NPC's sleeve, y'know?

Crakkerjakk: Ah, yeah, the Navy guys (With a handle like "crackerjack" I'm assuming Navy) love to point to the the Department of Transportation bit.

They totally ignore the fact that the "First Fleet" is a good decade older than the US Navy, and unlike the Navy the USCG has never been disbanded. (Although, we've changed names a few times.)

Okay, these have nothing to do with anything, but they make me laugh:

[ Spoiler ]

U.S. COAST GUARD ENLISTMENT OATH
"I, (State your name), swear to sign away 4 years of my life to the UNITED STATES COAST GUARD because I don't want to go overseas, and would rather spend four years in the tropic paradise of Kodiak, Alaska then some primitive backwater like Tokyo. I swear to defend our position as the fifth branch of the Armed Services, although we are under the Department of Tresur... um... Transport... um... Homeland Security. I understand that atleast twice a day, someone will refer to me a member of the Air Force or Navy, and when I correct them, they will question my military status. I will work on boats the size of kayaks and small yachts during the worst of natures storms, and recieve no thanks or notice form the public. I will fly in helos into the eye of the storm to rescue people dumber then rocks, and then be heckled by the same people when I bust them for transporting drugs two months later.! I will prevent thousands of gallons of pollution, but be accused of impeding the economy when I won't allow vessels to pour oil into the ocean. I will be the red-headed step child to all of the other services, although I know I got the better deal. All of my equipment will be discarded Navy property. I will use most of my time in the Coast Guard to take college classes, and perfect my web surfing abilities, then complain that I work too much. I will perfect avoiding PT at all costs, and do my best to attend training that will give me a great competitive edge in the career field of my choice, making retention efforts of the Coast Guard pointless. I will come in contact with so many pollutants during my tenure, I will glow in the dark for the rest of my natural life and refer to myself as "salty" because of it. I will do my best to work 8 to 3, with a two hour lunch, on normal days, and have my pager and cell phone surgically attached, SO HELP ME GOD.

____________________
Signature
____________________
Date

[ Spoiler ]

US NAVY OATH OF ENLISTMENT
"I, Top Gun, in lieu of going to prison, swear to sign away 4 years of my life to the UNITED STATES NAVY, because I want to hang out with Marines without actually having to BE one of them, because I thought the Air Force was too "corporate," because I didn't want to actually live in dirt like the Army, and because I thought, "Hey, I like to swim...why not?" I promise to wear clothes that went out of style in 1976 and to have my name stenciled on the butt of every pair of pants I own. I understand that I will be mistaken for the Good Humor Man during summer,! and for Nazi Waffen SS during the winter. I will strive to use a different language than the rest of the English-speaking world, using words like "deck, bulkhead, cover, geedunk, scuttlebutt, scuttle and head," when I really mean "floor, wall, hat, candy, water fountain, hole in wall and toilet." I will take great pride in the fact that all Navy acronyms, rank, and insignia, and everything else for that matter, are completely different from the other services and make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I will muster, whatever that is, at 0700 every morning unless I am buddy-buddy with the Chief, in which case I will show up around 0930. I vow to hone my coffee cup-handling skills to the point that I can stand up in a kayak being tossed around in a typhoon, and still not spill a drop. I consent to being promoted and subsequently busted at least twice per fiscal year. I realize that, once selected for Chief, I am required to submit myself to the sick, and quite possibly illegal, whims of my newfound "colleagues." Furthermore, I swear that if the weather starts getting rough, and my over priced ship is tossed, then the Coast Guard will come and rescue me. Because they actually know how to sail, swim, navigate, and swim. So Help Me Neptune!"

______________________
Signature
______________________
Date

[ Spoiler ]

US MARINE CORPS OATH OF ENLISTMENT
"I, (pick a name the police won't recognize), swear..uhhhh....high-and-tight.... grunt... cammies....kill....fix bayonets....charge....slash....dig....burn....blowup....ugh...Air Force women....beer.....sailors wives.....air strikes....yes SIR!....whiskey....liberty call....salute....Ooorah Gunny....grenades...women....OORAH! So Help Me Chesty PULLER!"

X____________________
Thumb Print
XX _________________________________
Teeth Marks
_____________________
Date

[Crakkerjakk]

USMC, actually, and we predate the Coast Guard by a good 15 years. We actually predate the US itself by a year.

*Edit, for harshness*

Coasties are good folks, actually. Only service besides Seabees that could keep up with us, alcohol-wise, when I was in. Plus you dislike the Navy, so thats a plus.

I love the Marine Enlistment Oath. Haven't seen it for a while.

[fistandantilus4....]

This thread isn't a for people to take shots are other services either.

[Thain]

[Crakkerjakk]

We weren't REALLY taking shots at one another. Sibling rivalry is all:-). However, colored post noted and text of said post shall be rigidly adhered to. No more oneupmanship, aye aye, fist.

[tisoz]

[Crakkerjakk]

I would argue that it's not successful merchandising, so much, as indoctrination into a culture, which most other services tend to avoid. From talking to various folks in the other branches, I get the impression that y'all don't have history classes in boot, or at least don't place the same importance on them that we do. We don't have more stickers because we have more people after all, we have more stickers because more of us slap them on our vehicles even after we get out, instead of moving on with our new civilian lives.

I will also point out that while the continental marines were disbanded as an organization, individual Marines were still enlisted into service aboard the remaining naval assets of the US during 1783-1798, and thus it counts. Whether the flag says Continental Marines or USMC is unimportant. What IS important is the fact that there were United States Marines(Oorah, Semper Fi, *Grunt grunt* Chesty Puller, etc.).

And until recently, we also got royally screwed when it came to funding. The navy gets to decide how much of their budget we get, and they think painting their boats is much more important than functional gear. I had a field phone in my shop that I could literally trace back to the island hopping campaign of world war 2. 2nd Marine Raiders Battalion, I believe.

Finally I hope everyone realized that Gyllenhaal played an amazing shitbag of a Marine. The movie is unrealistic in several respects, and while the book is much better, it is even more liberal(I've met very few big texan Marines that insist that it's "all about the oil, man," or complain that their freedom of speech is being infringed.) We are at heart simple creatures concerned with following orders, sleeping with (many) women, drinking ourselves silly, and killing the enemies of our country. I mean, really. "I'm screwed up emotionally, so I'm gonna put a loaded weapon in a fellow Marine's face." I would have skinned that peice of shit alive, then made it my personal mission to run him outa the Corps so fast he'd still be crapping MREs when he got home.

But back to my point. After a fellow Marine, a Corpsman, or a Chaplain, I'd rather raise a glass with a Coastie (or a Seabee) than any other branch. And you guys definitely do get screwed as far as recognition goes.

Massively off point. Hopefully I didn't incur the wrath of Fist, or any other fish colored posters.

And if the original poster cares, a Marine supply sergeant would simply be a rank and a name. Probably at least GySgt(thats Gunnery Sergeant, to you civilians out there) and probably higher. A MSgt or perhaps even a MGySgt(Master Sergeant or Master Gunnery Sergeant) would be the next higher two ranks, depending on the size of the unit they were in and the size of warehouse they controlled. Also, for roleplaying purposes, if interacting with said Marines, do not merely call them "Sergeant" and God help you if you call one of them "Sarge." Unlike the army, we work for our ranks, and use the entire thing when speaking to one another out of respect and recognition. The only thing signifying that the Marine worked in supply would be his unit(1st Supply Bn, for example.)

[fistandantilus4....]

thanks guys.
My concern was more that tisoz get his question answered instead of the thread getting derailed.


Thain : "funny colored" , and no beer for me? ouch man. just ouch :(

[Thain]

Fistandantilus: Well, of course Mod's get a free VirtuaBeer. Especially ones that are names after potent archmagi.

With regards to Crakkerjack's commenton USMC ranks, this is gospel truth. I once counted the stripes wrong (or something) and greeted a Master Sergeant as a Gunnery Sergeant. This made her very unhappy with a certain lowly Petty Officer Third Class. I will never fear any man, woman, or demon as much as that Master Sergeant's glare.

In context of your average everyday game of SR, it matters not a blink.

[Kagetenshi]

It'd be a good way to explain a Hung Out to Dry flaw. "Brought a fellow Shadowrunner who called my contact completely the wrong rank".

~J

[Thain]

The Marines are also much more hung up on the proper use of the words "rifle," "weapon," "firearm," and "gun" than most branches. Although everybody I know you went through the service knew to not call their weapon a "gun" the Marines are one of the few that seem to retain that bit as if it were gospel after mustering out.

I try my best to keep it straight when I talk, and I do still remember watching other people in my class perform the "This is my weapon, this is my gun..." chant. :rotate:

I wish I could remember the variation that they used for the female recruit that got it wrong. But, like most things they comeup with it Boot, it is not suitable for polite company. :grinbig:

But man, marines are hung up on their rifles.

[Kagetenshi]

With the advent of Trolls, the UCAS marines now carry guns.

~J

[Thain]

This is my assault cannon. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My assault cannon is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life...

[Crakkerjakk]

I maintain than any living creature can be brought down by a M2 or Mk19. Plus, I'm almost certain that the UCAS Marines will have trolls as well. Poor human DIs, trying to run their first batch of troll recruits into the dirt....

And we're not hung up on our rifles , Thain. We have exactly the right amount of reverence for our weapons. Everyone else is just slackin'. :D

But really, for us, there's a right way to do everything, and therein the major departure from everyone else. Or rather, as the saying goes, "There is the right way, the wrong way, and the Marine Corps way." From my personal experience, the Marine Corps way seemed to be the way that hurt the most.

Also, don't forget we spend longer in boot. It took me six months to stop calling my flashlight a "moonbeam" and I didn't stop calling my sneakers "Go-fasters" until I got out.

But it's yet another aspect of that cultural indoctrination I was talking about earlier. If you get a buncha scared kids together, and start making them refer to themselves in the third person, replace entire chunks of their vocabulary, and stress the hell outa them, they soak up knowledge like a sponge. And they retain that knowledge for a long, long, long time. Especially if after boot you throw them into a highly regimented society with extensive traditions and an outlook that they are different creatures than all the other humans running around the planet.

The assault cannon creed though... brings a whole new meaning to "One shot, one kill."

[Marmot]

[Thain]

Every Company Commander (USCG Drill Instructor) I ever encounter could snap the meanest Troll to attention in under a combat round, I assure you. These guys have to be rolling 20+ Dice on their shouting skills.

"Welcome to Cape May. The first thing you're gonna do is shut up, sit up and take your hats off ... and GET YOUR STINKIN' LEGS OUTTA THE AISLE — look straight ahead, don't look at me ... you're gonna do what I say, when I say it and how I say to do it....... You've got ten seconds to get off this bus, and you've just wasted three! Go! Go! Go!"

Unlike the other military services, at Camp May you don't get to fire the M-16, we spent alot of time with the M9 9mm handgun, . The Coast Guard takes 9mm training very seriously... and even though I manned a fax machine, like I said, but I feel I'd do okay if I had to do some kind of "social work" with one.

The other big difference between "us and them" has got to be, in a word, swimming. Yeah, marines learn hand-to-hand in basic; Yeah, they do some serious PT; Yeah, they can shout "OOORAH" at 200 decibels... but nobody in any branch swims like a Coastie

Abaft the beam. Admin Warfare Specialist. Goat's mess. Black boot. Brown boot. Bosun's Punch. Gunwale. HAZREP. Cover. Knee-deep Navy. Mail Buoy Watch. Aye-aye. Go Fast.

[Kagetenshi]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Kagetenshi]

Juggernauts at 2.3 kilometers.

As for Mk 19s, granted, but I don't really see those as being in the same category.

~J

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Kagetenshi]

Nah, SR3 assault cannon range tops out at 2.4km. 2640 meters if you use an extended barrel.

~J

[Crakkerjakk]

We definitely had some non swimming mofos in my unit. We had this one black guy called little Will(His last name was Williams and there was another black guy with the same name, only he was huge) who couldn't breaststroke 25 m. Hell, couldn't even make it five. I had maxed out how far you could go as far as swimming(former Boy Scout/Lifeguard) without going to Swim Instructor course, so they had me train all the guys that were having trouble staying afloat while the rest of the company qualified. We eventually got little Will WS-4 qualed, but goddamn, it was just like teaching the kids when I was lifeguarding. He told me he was going to murder me in my sleep if I called him "my little minnow" one more time though...

Yeah, I'm a certified pistol and rifle coach, which is a separate MOS in the Marine Corps. I freaking hate the M-9. Past 25 yards you have a better chance of hitting something if you just throw the pistol at your target. Plus it's like every five rounds you get a freaking jam or stovepipe. Picked up a Sig three months after I got out, and I swear, taking that thing to the range is like sex. Only weapon besides my M-16 that I named. Ah, Eliza.

[Butterblume]

Hadn't thought of it at the time, but in my basic training (Jäger = light infantry) everyone could swim. At least, when we crossed a lake with combat gear, no one drowned (notice: with combat gear, not in. Wouldn't work under fire: you basically undress, put all of your 30kg++ gear in your hopefully watertight ABC Poncho, so it swims like a raft, and then push it in front of you over the water. The Rifle on course is on top, and if it get sunk, you're in trouble :D).

I knew I wanted to make a point, but I can't remember what it was.

Later on, we had navy and air force guys in our unit, and most of them were not only ridiculous to look at when they swam, but at every aspect of soldiering.

[Crakkerjakk]

I actually swim qualled in my steel toed jungle boots once. Treading water for half an hour becomes a little more challenging with another 5-10 lbs of metal on your feet. I never understood the folks who got all hung up on swimming in gear. A good pair of jungles acts just like a small pair of diving fins in the water. I find it easier than swimming naked(at least if speed isn't an issue.) Plus I always waterproofed my pack, so that you just hop into the water and your pack is a nice little flotation device for you to shoot from. The only real pain in the ass is the helmet. I have a huge head, so it's always difficult to find a helmet that'll fit without sliding around all over the place. WHich is even worse in the water, when some air gets trapped in the top.

My personal favorite was the excuses I got about why the guys who sunk like rocks couldn't swim. One and all, it was, "I grew up in the city man, all we had were public pools." To which I responded, "I grew up in Alaska, all our water was covered with ice for 9 months out of the year, except for public pools, which is where I learned how to swim. Pussies."

[Thain]

Wait, you guys had the option to take your boots off when you swam? Next your going to tell me that the pool had a heater!

The M9 is the worst damn firearm I've ever handled. If I didn't know better, I'd swear the gunner's mate was modding them to stovepipe every six round, just to teach clearing the weapon. Of course, the ones used for trainning are manhandled by a few hundred recuits every month... guys who I've spoken to that did things like patrol or boarding swear that they had much more faith in their duty weapons. That said, they all prefered a Remington 870, if given a choice.

As a black-ops, wetwork, gungho Admin Warfare Specialist (I'm qualified expert at the fax machine, two-hole punch, and can kill a man with my bare roledex), I didn't see very much of the M9 after boot.

My S&W 9mm, however, stands watch here at home whenever I'm asleep.

[Crakkerjakk]

Well, part of the advanced swim qual involved lifeguard-esque rescues, where you had to drag swim instructors to safety(heavily muscled, asshole, swim instructors, that hadn't been qualling all day, and like to pull you under the water if given half the chance.) That part was just in swim trunks. Jokes on them though, I just went limp, let em push me under. Takes more O2 to hold me under than it does for me to wait for them to let go. And for the treading water bit, you tread water for five minutes, take your boots off while still treading water, then hang onto them for twenty minutes while still treading water, then put them back on and tread water for another five minutes. And I am ashamed to say that I think our pools did have heaters. I mean, they were indoors and there was snow on the ground, but the water wasn't frozen, so I assume they did.

The 870 is dependable as crap, from everyone I talk to. Course, now the Corps has upgraded to the Benelli or something Italian sounding, I believe. Never actually fired the shotguns when I was in, but never really saw the point. I mean, it's a shotgun. From what I heard the qual process was somewhat similar to the grenade range. "Here's fifty shells/ 6 grenades, let us know when you're out so we can get back on the truck."

[Thain]

By dependable as crap, you mean as regular as a guy who overdosed on Exlax, right? Because if you're knocking my Wingmaster, we might just have to step outside.

A shotgun is not a roomsweeper, even with shot, your still only talking about a spread about the size of a man's hand spread... maybe a dinner plate with a really high-spreading load. It's a bit forgiving as far as accuracy is concerned, but you still need to be able to hit what your aiming at.

That said, if your searching a 30' charter fishing boat for illict narcotics, tax-free canadian cigarettes, and/or "entry without inspection" aliens... Well, buckshot just works. The doors are plywood, the hallways are tight, and the space is cramped.

And you can't beat the intimidation factor of a 12-guage barrel. Lots of people - criminals included - simply think that the bigger hole means a more powerful gun. Plus, Hollywood has taught them that anyone hit with a shotgun will fly backwards 30'.

I've spoken to many police officers, and they tell me the same thing as the boarding party Coasties: the *cha-chunk* of a shotgun's action tends to "inspire compliance" from many a low-life.

Plus, I figure that I can hit a 3" clay in flight at range... I shold be ableto hit a 6'3" burglar climibg through my kitchen window.

[Crakkerjakk]

Yes, I meant 870=good. I definitely agree on the intimidation effect of that slide racking, I just think that it really doesn't require a whole lot of skill to use a shotty. I mean, at least to shoot at stationary targets, which from what I understand is how the qual course for us worked. I can usually hit about 90% of the clays on a skeet range, so I just can't imagine having to sight in carefully on a 4 by 4 foot cardboard cut-out, unless it was at some seriously extreme range, in which case trying to hit something with shot is just silly anyways. But for home defense my goto is definitely my mossburg pistol grip, loaded with buckshot. It's small enough to easily move around corners, and the shot probably won't go further than the walls of my own house if I miss.

[Spike]

As an army guy, I feel so very out of place. I'm only here because logistics happens to be my branch. That is, I am supply, just army style.

But I'm guessing all these waterbabies are going to laugh at me now so I'll just shut up. ;)

[Crakkerjakk]

*Shrug*

You do more than the Air Force, and a hell of a lot more than a civilian. That said, you are still in the army*stinkeye for u!*

[Spike]

Amusingly enough, while I was in Afghanistan recently, a land locked country, I worked with a lot of marines, roomed with marines. I also was freinds with a submariner.

I ask you this, what the fuck was a submarine jockey doing in the mountains? did they have an asset in the resivoir above the city? That would have been good to know... though I have to wonder how they got it up there!


Oh, and since everyone else was talking personal guns.... I rather like my USP in .45, thanks. I was set to loan it to my dad to kill the racoon that pulled itself up the tines of the pitchfork it was impaled upon, but apparently the paracritter decided that a little fence vandalism was enough to assuage it's wounded pride (and lungs...) and took off rather than come back for round two.



But back to the OP. Army supply people cross level, the same guy can work at a unit (with the rifles too), then find himself shuffling paperwork (making stuff disappear in ways that no one looks for it) then find himself in a warehouse (do I need to mention it? Ok... lots and lots of stuff...)

And unlike Marines and Naval people, they mostly speak English. ;)

[Crakkerjakk]

"Latrine," and "bivouc(sp?)." You guys speak french. :P

The USP is a really nice pistol though. If I had gotten a .45 instead of a .40 I might have gone with that instead of my Sig, but from all the reviews I could find, the Sig is just slightly better in that caliber than the USP.(Slightly. They're both amazing firearms.)

[Spike]

Oui, Oui...

I did say 'Mostly' English. At least we don't pee on people's heads and try to sleep on mideval torture racks. Should I mention the distinctive yawping of Marine Cadences? How do they go again...

Ha hu hup wagh furglebarger?

Summoning Cthulu were you? :D


To be honest, I think the 40 USP might be a slightly better purchace. I've only heard good things about that calibre, the gun fits easier in the hand (and I have big hands), fires like a dream and holds more ammo. What's not to like?

Sort of a waste for me, however. I've learned I'm tragically doomed to be a nutsack shooter (where all my bullets tend to go, regardless of where I aim), while with a rifle I can reliably hit targets out to 600 meters. Go with your strengths I say.

Ok, my strength is the Ma Deuce, but it's a bit hard to lug one of those around. Maybe I should look forward to becoming a troll? How many years left until goblinization? :D

[Kyoto Kid]

[Crakkerjakk]

I've been marched somewhere by an army guy. It made baby Chesty cry. *Shudder* I mean, keep in mind, my parents have seen the changing of the guard at buckingham palace, and in their(admittedly biased) opinion, Marines at boot graduation march better than those guys.

And our cadences are awesome. We still get to curse and talk about napalming schoolyards. Plus there's one about our quadrapelegic girlfriend.

Also, if all your shots are going towards the groin, you may be anticipating recoil. Quick way to check this is go shooting with a friend, have him load your mags, and throw a empty shell casing in one of them. When the gun goes click and you're not expecting it, if your sights dip down, you're muscling the weapon.

But yes, my strength is the M-16. I'm not as good as some Marines I know, but I can reliably hit a man sized target at 500 yards from the prone 9 out of 10 times, with just iron sights.

[Spike]

Oh, I won't disagree with you on how the army marches! Just that you don't need to learn a new language to understand the guy shouting...

As for my bad pistol habits... yeah, I just never get to shoot much, so its not a surprise that I got some bad habits going. Ironically, in gaming I'm always the pistol guy, and in real life I'm a badass with the heavy machineguns and reasonably scary with rifles...

Too many John Woo movies, not enough Heat, I guess. 8)


Of course, now I need to go into the basement to see what sort of potentially dangerous artefacts might be stored down there, courtesy of WWII? Would make for an interesting SR adventure, wouldn't it...

[Crakkerjakk]

Well, if Marines march better... And if Marines speak Jarhead... Obviously, speaking Jarhead makes you a better marcher! Therefore, if you want to march all purdy, you DO need to learn a new language!

I r Smrt.

Speaking of Heat, apparently they show the gun battle scene with the cars in Marine OCS as a textbook example of fire and movement. I had a boot louie who swore it was so.

[Spike]

I can believe it. Seriously I can. That end battle was both incredibly cinematic, and yet very much how a MOUT scene might play out.

I say this with all the authority of someone who's entire career has been spent in the company of helicopter types instead of infantry types... ;) Of course, having heard from people who were there upon leaving the theatre for Black Hawk Down has to be the ultimate cinematic coolness. Yeah, buddy, not only did I shake the hands of famous people, i had the people the famous people were playing tell me what was and was not accurate.... freakin' awesome!


Oh.. and shadowrunners should totally be able to expend all their multithousand rounds of ammo in one five second pass and then ask to withdraw to rearm and reload.... :love: Where is my Vindicator?

[Crakkerjakk]

My personal favorite in Blackhawk down is where the one guy chunks a grenade perfectly into , like a five story window. Had to be like a 150 yard throw. No sweat. Only super unrealistic part I saw.

[Austere Emancipa...]

The BHs ambling along at a jogging pace combined with the absolute accuracy of the RPG-men firing at the flying helos was pretty ridiculous too. Plus there's the whole issue of the fire control systems in AH-6 Little Birds (ie. there's not supposed to be any).

The one scene I would've loved to see is an AH-6 making a minigun run against a cow-riding militia team -- a brilliant chance to get to see 100rps-induced chunky salsa on screen wasted.

[Butterblume]

We needed about 2h training to march better than every other unit in the Bundeswehr, except the other companies in the Battalion. Marching is more like a state of mind than an actual physical challenge :D.

Since Spike mentioned Black Hawk Down, here is what Gary Brecher has to say about Colonel Steele (Captain at that time) http://www.exile.ru/2006-January-26/war_nerd.html.

And just to get back on the topic of water, I myself were a lifeguard and swimming instructor. I even won a few competitions (lifeguard competitions around here are much more fun than normal swimming), as did the kids I trained. I never swam with boots, since footwear was forbidden *g*, but i was really good at swimming in clothes.
There are of course some 'moves' how to overpower some panicky drowning guys, so I wonder why crackerjakk didn't mention that.

[Crakkerjakk]

Cause I had already been in the water eight hours, still had to go through six more instructors, and not only did they outweigh me by 40-60 pounds, they knew all those fancy moves. I was conserving energy as much as possible.

[Spike]

I wasn't trying to claim perfect accuracy for it. Steele was a goob in the movie, sure.

The big issue with the RPG's was this: The Nightstalkers (160th SOAR, the flyboys...) specialized in night operations, yet were under orders to fly only during the day... and to take the same route out of the airport every time.

The Somalis would launch something like 300 RPG's at any helicopter they saw. It was volume of firepower more than accuracy that brought down the blackhawks, something that's hard to show in a movie.


er... thats RPG for rocket Propelled grenade. Looking back I can just see the sky filled with old unused hardbacks...

[Crakkerjakk]

LMAO

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Thain]

Let's face it, old FASA "perfect bound" paper backs are only good for saturation targets. Also, I don't see how any branch of the service that employs a "Colonel" can be discribed as speaking English.

For a nice film look at recusing panicy drowning victims, consider renting The Guardian, Mr. Demi Moore isn't actually all that bad... heck, its more acutrate than a lot of other military movies.

It does bug me that one of the two female students at A-School is shown with long, beautiful blonde hair. Sure, from the breif shots of her on screen, she's wearing it regulation... but no one, not no one, goes to Rescue Swimmer school with long locks. It's like putting a 6'9" guy in a fighter cockpit, it just don't happen!

[Crakkerjakk]

I did kinda want to see that, but I want to stab Ashton Kutcher in the eyes every time he opens his mouth. Severely detracts from the enjoyment of any movie he's in.

And I didn't say we spoke English. Marines speak Jarhead, colloquially known as Jarine.

"So I was PMing the 3865s when the Company Guns came over and was like, WTF, Over? And I was like "Just waiting on the JTF HQ for ROE, gunny." And he was all "Tuefel, you best get your meatbeaters out of your pockets and go square away the Quadcons before Top gets here, Oorah?" and I was all "Rgr that, Gunny. Oorah." Then we dropped three a-kits to the 3614 and SSgt was pissed, so we spent the rest of the day policing the area on our knees. Big green weenie strikes again, Oorah?"

[Spike]

[Crakkerjakk]

I'm outa practice, I've been out for about three and a half years. It used to be worse. Oh, and also, editted to remove the f-word, because that would have been in there about.... 12 times. At least.

[Marmot]

Man, I had a great day going until I came here and saw that and understood every word of it.

I think I'm going to go somewhere and cry.

Anyway, traceback some. Shotgun qual is hilarious in practice. GM takes you to the fantail, hands you the weapon and tells you to hit the ocean with five shells.

And yes, some people fail.

That's GM for Gunner's Mate, by the by. Not those folks who throw the RPGs at us during SR sessions when we start any sentence with 'well, that's not the way they showed us...' when anything remotely involving our branch of the service pops up.

[Spike]

Is it sad that I'm less inclined to believe that is the actual test than I am to believe people fail it?

[Marmot]

I always held out faith that there was a 'real' shotgun qualification that involved clays or something but it really is more or less 'demonstrate that you can use the damn thing and make the shot go in (roughly) the direction it needs to go (hint, sailor, the direction not YOU or your shipmates are in)'.

Sadly such a test was about as forthcoming as a C-GU11 or the mythical PRC-E8 radio I got sent to find for being the FNG. For the record, I did find the PRC-E8 and the subsequent nights on long watches only confirmed my success.

[toturi]

[Spike]

[Crakkerjakk]

We always told our new guys to go find the BA eleven hundred November with the ST Ring Attachment, or the ID Ten Tango Forms.

I was told to ask gunny for the PRC-E7. The whole shop paid for that one. it was still funny.

We watched the Navy pistol qual once. They threw a fifty-five gallon drum off the side of the ship, then gave everyone ammo, stood them in a line on the flight deck elevator, and told em to shoot the barrel. We couldn't fricken believe it.

[Thain]

Aparently, back in Dubya-Dubya-Two they trainned the gun crews of bombers by handing them a shotgun, putting them in the back of a pickup, and hightailing it down a dirt road. Off to one side, guys hiding behind piles of dirt would launch clays.

I don't care who you are, that sounds like a fun weekend!

"I embarked from the CONUS for a DHS USCG MOS with DNIF. I became an Admin Warefare Specialist, YN3 FYI. At the HAWC in HA, I was just another haole. I processed P&R for TRICARE, with an awful lot of PGI. SOP was to send the DRUNKS to a SAC, PDQ."

God, I love acronyms!

[Ancient History]

Even in milspeak you're FUBAR. Reminds me of the first lieutenant that thought CYA stood for Catholic Youth Association.

[Thain]

To be fair, it has been a long while. I'm learning Lawyerese now, which has the whole "subject-noun-verb" section of my brain completely rewired.

[Ancient History]

Hooah.

[Marmot]

[Thain]

I get the feeling, that for some reason, the Navy doesn't need to worry about pistols much.

[Crakkerjakk]

They also have these

[Spike]

I can tell by scrolling over the link that you are talking about battleships. Might I remind you of the fact that it has since been proven that battleships are dead when confronted by crop dusters and rowboats armed with antiship missles?

One of your own proved that...

[Butterblume]

It has been proven shortly after WW I, and it only took a few decades until everyone got the message. Like it has been proven that aircraft carriers are too vulnerable, but I think it will also need a few decades...

Todays anti ship missiles couldn't sink a battleship. This Statement is true and at the same time utterly useless :D. If there were battleships around, there would also be missiles around that could harm them.

It's similar to the russian submarines known as alfa class, when they were built they could outrun every torpedo in the western arsenal. Of course, it didn't took that long to build faster torpedos.

[Thain]

Yes, battleships have their weaknesses... what doesn't?

Nonetheless, big honkin' guns going Boom! are always fun.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Thain]

Yeah, they've got the WWII-era Alambama down near my (late) grandparents place on the gulf coast. Much of the place is closed off to tourists, but you can still crawl around a pretty fair portion of her. Good times.