 Stick n' Shock, Is it broken? |
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 Aug 16 2007, 02:51 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-February 07 Member No.: 10,958  |
I'm playing a covert ops character who uses nonlethal takedowns, and after a little thought there's a lot of potential for abuse there. The Defiance taser is low range and low rate of fire, so the unusually high damage seems like a fair trade.
However, stick n' shock ammo damage is independent of the gun firing it. This allows you to put it in a light pistol like the Yamaha Fubuki or machine pistol and use burst or fully auto to do a lot of damage in a distressingly small package. I initially thought that S&S would be useless when facing drones and the like, but electrical damage offsets that. Imagine what shooting a computer with a taser would do to it's components, and you're looking at a similar situation. I haven't checked the drone rules in a while, so please correct me if I'm mistakened on this. Are there disadvantages to doing this, or is it just broken? I suppose, at the same time, are there any advantages to using my Defiance taser when my Fubuki does the same damage at better range and is also SA? |
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Aug 16 2007, 02:57 AM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Compared to Tasers, yes, it's a great choice in practically every way except price and SS/SA modes.
Compared to Gel Rounds? Not that big of a difference depending on the weapon type, though it's definitely a better choice on smaller pistols. It's also more than 150% more expensive per shot. Stick-n-Shock is nice, but it's not as game-breaking as a lot of people seem to make it out (and no, something being a bit better than cheaper alternatives is not any more game-breaking than an Armored Jacket vs. Armored Clothing or a Meta Link vs. a Fairlight Caliban commlink is). |
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Aug 16 2007, 09:28 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, Dr Funk.
I believe Stick n' Shock is broken for two reasons: 1) It is more powerful than equivalent lethal ammunition. I believe the choice to make a non-lethal takedown should be a hard one. Shadowrun is a gritty, hard world: you can either be effective or you can be humane. 2) Its independence from weapon type allows assault-rifle scale damage in a machine pistol. This kind of destroys the correlation between the amount of scrutiny a guns-based character will be put through and the amount of damage he will be able to dish out. I believe if you can only bring a pistol past security, and the guards have SMGs, that's supposed to have an effect. So it's not that it's directly overpowered in an absolute sense: it's very expensive, only slightly better than Ex-ex and easier to counter (Nonconductivity). The problems are that it destroys some other subtleties of gunplay in SR, while simultaneously blowing all other non-lethal takedown methods off the map. |
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Aug 16 2007, 09:32 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
With regards to 1, this is actually the case with most non-lethal take down methods in SR, until the errata, gel bullets were more damaging than normal ammo, and stun bolt is easier than mana bolt. 2 Is a problem. Almost tempted to come up with some handwavy stuff along the lines of it uses the lower of the two damage values, the problem is justification. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:01 AM
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#5
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
1. If it didn't exist, the same complaint would be made against Gel Rounds. Or APDS ammo. Or EX Explosive ammo. Or the doubtlessly upcoming Capsule Rounds. Or some other ammo type of choice that's better than Regular ammo. Stick-n-Shock is just getting the brunt of the "hate" because it's one of the better -- albeit significantly more expensive -- options. Especially for an automatic weapon. If you feel your game isn't gritty and hard enough because players are using nothing but Stick-n-Shock, tone down the amount of free cash you're distributing, give opponents more Nonconductive modified armor, and/or just say 'no.'
If nothing else, it gives players a reason to select a less conspicuous weapon, assuming they choose their gear based on "what gives me the most pluses." Hold-Out/Light/Machine Pistols are all really pathetic choices unless the GM cooks up a contrived reason otherwise, or has weapon checks be a serious concern way too often. In which case does it matter that they're doing good damage at all? 2. Steyr TMP with Stick-n-Shock vs. Ares Alpha with APDS. One is 6S(e) damage with -half AP (usually equal to -1 to -3 on typical opponents), one is 6P with -5 AP (completely ignoring armor or being about the same as the former on typical opponents). One is affected negatively by Nonconductive armor, the other ignores it completely. One bounces off walls, one shoots through walls. One has no integral recoil compensation, the other has two points for free not including the stock. At best one can have 3 points of recoil compensation without external mods, the other can have 6. One is stuck with those stats without getting signifcantly worse, the other can use the same ammo as the former and still get all the recoil perks. Feel free to switch the second weapon with an SMG and/or use some other good ammo choice like EX Explosive. How exactly is the former option equal to or better than the latter in all situations again? I can't quite figure it out. EDIT: And as an aside, the Machine Pistols in SR4 are just slightly smaller SMGs as far as I can tell as opposed to an automatic pistol, and I don't know much of anything firearms. So your comparison of a runner with a Machine Pistol being nearly equal to a guard with an SMG isn't really that big of a difference as far as believability goes. Least not for me. Especially since the former is merely incapacitating a guard whereas the guards are actually killing you. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:09 AM
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#6
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Just ask your GM if he's ok with a full auto taser with the range and capacity of a machine pistol. If that's fine with him, it's not broken. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:16 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 9-June 06 From: Oxford, UK. Member No.: 8,687 |
Well, if you ever thought that Stick'n'Shock needs fixing, a quick and easy way would be to state that the number of hits on your firearms roll does not add to the amount of damage.
That way, targets would take 6 damages top - the only way to improve the effect is to call shots to bypass armor further. However, a short burst with 3 s'n's would mean 3 different soak tests, instead of adding +2 to the damage. That way, a S'n'S long burst could really bring something biggish down, but it would be quite expensive, and a long burst of regular ammo would be just as effective... I suppose it needs to be tested... Anyway, just a thought. Cheers, Fumble. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:16 AM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Then ask him if he's okay with a Club that negates half a person's armor, does more damage in most people's hands than said Club, and does taser damage. If he's okay with that, then a Stun Baton isn't broken. Then ask him the same thing about an Unarmed Strike. If he's okay with that, too, then a Stun Glove isn't broken. Then ask him if it's okay that the former is better than the latter. If he's okay with that, then the Stun Baton still isn't broken. (OMFG! You mean some choices are better than others?!? And OMFGx2! There's a similar theme amongst stun weapons in the game?!? Holy cow. And double yowza when you ignore all the other little details that should be going into consideration, too, like price, availability, and legality.) If that's not good enough for you, we can keep going. Ask if it's okay that there's a Commlink that's better in all ways to the Meta Link. If he's okay with that, the customized Fairlight Caliban isn't broken. Ask if he's okay with a Stunbolt that affects an entire group of people. If he's okay with that, then Stunball isn't broken. Ask if he's okay with there being armor that's nearly twice as good as Armored Clothing. If he's okay with that, then Armored Jackets aren't broken. Blah blah blah. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:17 AM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
If full auto taser with the range of a machine pistols are considered a dangerous threat by security forces, they'll soon install nonconductive options on all uniforms, if they think the price is worth it (and I think it is).
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Aug 16 2007, 10:32 AM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 92 Joined: 15-July 07 Member No.: 12,262 |
If a stun baton or glove was capable of fully automatic fire, had the range of an assault rifle, and was capable of engaging multiple targets in a single attack then, yes, I would question it. As such, would you really ever use anything else? Melee weapons become nicely balanced when they can be more powerful than ranged weapons, since you have to be in melee range to use them. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:44 AM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It flew right past your head. The point is -- dun da da dun! -- there are weapons that are superior in practically all ways compared to other weapons in the same basic category. A Club vs. a Stun Baton -- both Reach 1 Clubs -- is a perfect example of this. If you're choosing weapons based purely on their stats, which is the entire point of all this, then there's no reason to pick a Club at all unless you have amped your Strength way way way up, to the point where you're not only doing 6S with the club, but overcompensating to get past the electrical damage and the AP bonus the Stun Baton provides. And those are two weapons in exactly the same category! Unlike Tasers and Machine Pistols with Stick-n-Shock ammo. It's also ignoring all the secondary traits which, again, include price, legality, and availability. Which are pretty much the only reason there ever is to pick an inferior type of item over a better one. You may as well be complaining that people choose Light Pistols over Hold-Out Pistols. Or that people choose a Katana instead of a Sword. Some differences are minor but still there, others are more noticeable. That doesn't change the basic concept. And, also again, if Stick-n-Shock ammo didn't exist, people would find some other ammo type/weapon to complain about because they, too, were obviously better choices than other options. Be it an SMG with APDS ammo vs. an Assault Rifle with Regular, an Assault Rifle vs. a Light Machine Gun, or the aforementioned Club vs. Stun Baton. Nevermind that you actually do have an option. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:56 AM
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#12
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, the details for the examples you listed aren't those. They are technical restictions like limited 'ammo' versus non-limited, etc. Price, availability and legality are pretty much trivial differences for Runners. If you break into a facility, shoot people up and steal stuff on a regular, what gun you use is second tier. The issue with S&S is that is has the same range... same range means same speed, and same speed means that the projectle goes from LTL to L. And if you remove propellant to fix that, your gun won't autorepeat... exept for the YSF. |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:06 AM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That or the round isn't at all aerodynamic, or it converts some of the energy into its charge, combines impact with a charge for the net effect, or whatever other bullshit reasoning you want to come up with for a fictional type of ammo.
Love how it's gone from being metagame issues to reality-based ones, though. But since we're now changing the topic completely on a whim, I choose to bring inthe Trauma Damper. Silly implant reduces a Stick-n-Shock hit by one box, but if you did the same thing with an assault rifle it'd only move one box to Stun from Physical! How absurd is that. :please: |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:11 AM
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#14
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure. 'Phasers set to stun' is what everyone wants in SR.
Just an example for similar technical restriction to 'stun batons have 10 charges'. |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:12 AM
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#15
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You are using real world mechanics in a fictional make believe virtual world. Free. Your. Mind. What are the opposition in your games? Are they RAW? If they are, then I see no reason why S&S are any more powerful than any other type of ammo. You pay for the quality, you get the result. And I agree with Funk and I do not agree that his argument is a straw man argument. Price, availablity and legality are important factors if you do it by the RAW. |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:17 AM
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#16
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No. See above.
Then point me a RAW Grunt that is euipped with armor with Nonconductivity upgrade.
So ExEx from a light pistol is better than S&S?
Yes, that totally explains why ExEx is superior to S&S... after all it costs more, is harder to get and illegal. :S |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:59 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 92 Joined: 15-July 07 Member No.: 12,262 |
Sorry about missing your point earlier, doc. its been a long night
To be fair, S&S ammunition does have one massive flaw, non conductive armor. It renders the ammunition worthless, am I correct? So, if, as a GM, you find your players abusing S&S ammunition, just start issuing your NPCs nonconductive armor. If your gun bunny brought nothing but S&S out with him, he is is going to be worthless as he will be incapable of inflicting any damage. If he claims it unrealistic that everyone is running around with nonconnductive armor, just explain that security forces have been having it issued ever since there had been a string of jobs lately where the runners were using S&S While, ya, sure, it can be over powered, it can also be totally nullified (unless of course I'm mistaken about nonconductive armor, in which case, ignore this post) :P |
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Aug 16 2007, 12:14 PM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
IIRC Nonconductive armor adds its rating to the damage resistance test... which is good but not that good
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Aug 16 2007, 12:24 PM
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#19
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Yes. Because the Stun Baton "ammo" rule is a Shadowrun rule. It is only because you see it as fitting into your preconcieved notion of reality that it seems that way. Therefore, yes. No need for non-conductive. 3 words. Full Body Armor on Red Samurai or Tir Ghosts and you got to fill up all of their CMs, unless the GM thinks that "mission parameters" dictate otherwise. For most of the other Grunts, S&S is simply overkill. So is a S&S better than EX-EX from a Panther XXL? If you spend 15 BPs for Magician and install cyberware till you burn out, does that mean that Magician is worse than cyberware? If you insist on being wasteful, then be my guest. EX-EX is better. See EX-EX Panther XXL. Afterall, it kills you dead. |
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Aug 16 2007, 12:42 PM
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#20
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No. It's a technical restriction beyond availability, etc.
You do realize that the more armor you wear, the better S&S gets per RAW?
Assault cannons use special ammuniton only per RAW. Both ExEx and S&S can be fired from a light Pistol. Please compare.
That makes it usually the worse choise. |
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Aug 16 2007, 12:54 PM
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#21
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
It is still a game mechanic, in addition to availability, etc. Yes, but who are wearing them? And those are just the Grunts. Prime Runners aren't included yet. They can fire special S&S and special EX-EX then. Nothing in the XXL description says that they cannot. But alright, the Ultimax HMG can fire both SS and EXEX. Please compare. Actually it is the better choice. It doesn't really matter for grunts but it kicks in for Prime Runners. If the GM HOG the NPC, then he burns all Edge for the NPC. |
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Aug 16 2007, 01:19 PM
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#22
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indeed. One that limit's the power after you got it.
And that factors into the low-cost, easy-hidden, semi-legal weapon sector how?
Per RAW, grunts are the usual encounter, lieutnants are special, and Prime Runners are rare. So the point remains. |
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Aug 16 2007, 02:00 PM
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#23
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
So? It is not the only limit. And that factors into the "Use the appropriate ammo for the appropriate weapon for the appropriate situation". Also it depends on the Perception threshold value that the GM assigns the weapon/s. Unfortuately, there are no canon weapon examples in the Perception Test Thresholds. Yes and it doesn't matter what you use to get rid of the grunts! The grunts that do care about you using SS will run away whether you use SS or not. It's overkill. If you encounter the other grunts, you got bigger problems than SS is going to able to solve. The point remains. |
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Aug 16 2007, 03:16 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
I guess I shouldn't mention what you can do with a AGL loaded with stun grenades...
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Aug 16 2007, 03:23 PM
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#25
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's the only limit if you actuall use said gear.
Not, that factor into: load the YSF always with S&S.
Actually, there are Perception Tests modifiers for weapon size.
Sure it does. Faster is better. |
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