Where are they now: Belgium edition, or: Dude, where's my country? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Boscrossos]

I was looking over the 6th world wiki, and I noticed my home country of Belgium apparently doesn't exist anymore in 2070. I only started reading the books from 4th edition, so I can't help but wonder what happened that made our country apparently a part of France (according to the map of Europe). Anyone care to enlighten me?

[Shiloh]

I was looking over the 6th world wiki, and I noticed my home country of Belgium apparently doesn't exist anymore in 2070. I only started reading the books from 4th edition, so I can't help but wonder what happened that made our country apparently a part of France (according to the map of Europe). Anyone care to enlighten me?

Ooo. Interesting... Have any of the other Euro-nations been expunged/incorporated... Have Luxembourg and Lichtenstein survived, or been hegemonised?

[Ancient History]

I think those two were eaten by the SOX.

I know how you feel man, I'm of Walloon stock meself.

[CanRay]

I'm just glad my Country is still around.

Sort of.

Well, we got Top Billing, at least...

[Ryu]

I'm just glad my Country is still around.

Sort of.

Different country, same sentiment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) A dark future awaits.

[Wesley Street]

So what's considered to be the official UCAS flag? The one that looks like an American flag but with maple leaves where there were stars (from The Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America)? Or this one?

Anyone have a "No Prize" explanation as to the change? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[krakjen]

OM NOMNOMNOMNOM

[MYST1C]

I only started reading the books from 4th edition, so I can't help but wonder what happened that made our country apparently a part of France (according to the map of Europe). Anyone care to enlighten me?

Belgium eventually divided into two countries - Wallonia (later became part of France) and Flanders (later became part of the United Netherlands).
I just looked it up in SoE: Wallonia and Flanders split in 2016.

[MYST1C]

So what's considered to be the official UCAS flag? The one that looks like an American flag but with maple leaves where there were stars (from The Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America)? Or this one?

Anyone have a "No Prize" explanation as to the change? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Both are flags of the UCAS. The modified Stars-and-Stripes one is the flag used from creation of the UCAS until 2057, the other the new UCAS flag used since 2057.
As to the change - it happened by popular vote. The old design was considered "too USAish", lacking proper representation of the formerly Canadian part of the UCAS.

[MYST1C]

Have Luxembourg and Lichtenstein survived, or been hegemonised?

I think those two were eaten by the SOX.

Luxembourg is indeed part of the SOX (SOX is short for "Saar-Lorraine-Luxembourg"). Liechtenstein (which is located between Switzerland and Austria, hundreds of kilometers from SOX, AH!) seem to have been annexed into Switzerland (no border on the Switzerland map in SoE).

[CanRay]

I go with the new one. There's a reason for the Red Stripes on the left and right of the Canadian Flag, and I'm happy they're re-represented on the top and bottom (Probably for the same reason.).

The Stars propbably represent the remaining States in the UCAS, while the Leaves represent the remaining Provinces. Combines the best of both flags.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MJBurrage]

What is the original source of the wiki flag?

Is the 2057 flag change described in a previous post canon, or just explaining a fan created flag?

Given that UCAS is much more United States than Canada (population, inhabited area, Senate representation, capital is Washington D.C., etc.) the flag that most looks like the current "stars and stripes" is much more likely politically speaking, and still canon AFAIK.

[CanRay]

The original source is here, which, considering the source, I'm pretty sure we can bet it's Cannon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[MJBurrage]

Thanks, I looked at the website before posting but missed the link to that page (my bad)

I do not have SONA handy, does it explain the change (as noted above), or just show a new UCAS flag with no back story?

[CanRay]

SONA does not appear to explain the flag.

[MYST1C]

I do not have SONA handy, does it explain the change (as noted above), or just show a new UCAS flag with no back story?

Actually, the first depiction of the new flag is older than SoNA (2057 was in the SR2 era) - I think I saw it in Super Tuesday or maybe Target: UCAS? (I own neither so I can't look it up.)

[Ryu]

Actually, the first depiction of the new flag is older than SoNA (2057 was in the SR2 era) - I think I saw it in Super Tuesday or maybe Target: UCAS? (I own neither so I can't look it up.)

Super Tuesday has the old flag. Oddly enough I can´t seem to find a single flag in Target:UCAS.

[hermit]

I was looking over the 6th world wiki, and I noticed my home country of Belgium apparently doesn't exist anymore in 2070. I only started reading the books from 4th edition, so I can't help but wonder what happened that made our country apparently a part of France (according to the map of Europe). Anyone care to enlighten me?

Belgium broke into two, Wallonia was assimilated into France, and Flanders was assimilated into the Netherlands - who were happy because they regained about as much land as the Black Tide had cost them. SR central Europa has a much different coastline. Brussels is an enclave run by the NEEC, SR's version of the EU.

Sadly, that's not quite as far out there as other balcanisations the SR setting is propagating. From the state the country is in now, 2016 sounds kind of optimistic.

However, better this way than having your country turned into something ridiculous because the authors felt they had to cram everything there was in North America into something the size of Georgia, and then some more, truely batshit insane stuff, cause it's cool.

Luxembourg is indeed part of the SOX (SOX is short for "Saar-Lorraine-Luxembourg"). Liechtenstein (which is located between Switzerland and Austria, hundreds of kilometers from SOX, AH!) seem to have been annexed into Switzerland (no border on the Switzerland map in SoE).

In Chrom&Dioxin, the german SB from where the switzerland of SoE was mainly imported, Liechtenstein does exist. I suppose it was overseen in the SoE map because it's half the size of Manhattan. Of course, the map of switzerland in C&D was a cutout from a 90s Shell roadmap, so that might aly play into the fact of Liechtenstein being mentioned there.

[Boscrossos]

Belgium eventually divided into two countries - Wallonia (later became part of France) and Flanders (later became part of the United Netherlands).
I just looked it up in SoE: Wallonia and Flanders split in 2016.

That's strangely prophetic, seeing as the current political crisis in Belgium is centered entirely around people fearing this will happen.

Anyhoo, thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Synner]

That's strangely prophetic, seeing as the current political crisis in Belgium is centered entirely around people fearing this will happen.

We aim to please. Shadows of Europe was written by Europeans who were/are aware of the political and social issues of our continent. Though we were constrained to a certain extent by existing canon, we tried to adjust as much as possible to make things believable and relevant (hence the changes to Switzerland and Austria vs the original German material, France vs. the Descartes material, UK vs. London SB, etc).

Still my favorite project after all these years.

[krakjen]

France vs. the Descartes material

Yeah, never been a fan of this.
Too much "LOOK AT US WE ARE MORE SPECIAL" (the fuckhuge dragon, the mist (okay, the mist was pretty cool), etc)
But what I really have issue with, is the come back of royalty/church.
We beheaded our king after the revolution of 1789 damnit and we are a secular state (not really sure of the term: separation of church and state) since 1905.
It just can't happen.

Sorry about the rant.

[Chrysalis]

OM NOMNOMNOMNOM

Hun, close your mouth when you are eating or else we will enroll you in a catholic all girls school in Bruge.

[hermit]

@krakjen: I so understand your frustration. Same with the German setting.

[Chrysalis]

Uups, double post

[ravensmuse]

the fuckhuge dragon

Fuckhuge dragon in France, says I, what the heck are they talking about?

The Dragon of Auvergne
After the eruption of the Auvergne volcanoes in 2011, a dragon was discovered lying in the crater of the Puy de Sancy. It is "certainly the largest Great Western Dragons" ever seen, 30 or 40 meters long, with a wingspan of 50 meters.

That...that sounds like something out of a squealing twenty-six year old fangirl's wildest dreams.

Sorry about the rant.

So no, I think you're entirely justified in ranting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[krakjen]

Hun, close your mouth when you are eating or else we will enroll you in a catholic all girls school in Bruge.

That's don't seem like much of a threat.

[krakjen]

@krakjen: I so understand your frustration. Same with the German setting.

Good to know I'm not the only one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hermit]

That...that sounds like something out of a squealing twenty-six year old fangirl's wildest dreams.

Oh, I can top that! You see, in the original german-only Switzerland setting, there was a "fuckhuge dragon" that was all fluffy feathers and called Snowflake!

Good to know I'm not the only one

Returned monarchies and theocracies, c'me on ... in a country that's maybe got 20% practicing christians. Right. And Saxony a monarchoy ... eh. I could see it turning a Nazi haven - it practically is now, after all - but a renaissance-ish monarchy that is a haven to mercenaries running about like soldiers of the 30 years war. I somehow don't see that. Not to mention how a state consisting of three very conservative and one modern democracy, three toalitarian monarchies, one batshit crazy theocracy and two equally batshit crazy metahuman states with no economy at all, but incredible wealth, could possibly be kept together when a comparably homogenous state like belgium is just right now desintegrating.

And don't say Lofwyr. SK is made out to be one mega among many local megas ... megas noone ever hears about outside Germany, but who apparently totally outrun SK in it's core fields of industrial chemicals (AG Chemie), industrial machinery (Ruhrmetall), heavy weaponry (Ruhrmetall), finances and dragon leadership (Frankfurter Bankenverein), economical unfeasibility (Proteus!) and batshit crazyness (Proteus again!).

[Fuchs]

@krakjen: I so understand your frustration. Same with the German setting.

Same with the Switzerland setting.

[krakjen]

Oh, I can top that! You see, in the original german-only Switzerland setting, there was a "fuckhuge dragon" that was all fluffy feathers and called Snowflake!

Same with the Switzerland setting.

What, you don't like Snowflake?

[ravensmuse]

So on one hand, you Europeans get all sorts of fun stuff like crazy over the top nukes, fuckawesome guns, and apparently your brand of cybereyes.

On the other, you got Snowflake.

I think that's all I need to say about that.

(I'm hoping that Snowflake got written out?)

[krakjen]

So on one hand, you Europeans get all sorts of fun stuff like crazy over the top nukes, fuckawesome guns, and apparently your brand of cybereyes.

On the other, you got Snowflake.

I think that's all I need to say about that.

(I'm hoping that Snowflake got written out?)

Are you kidding? We got a killing magic myst, a ridiculous sleeping dragon and worst of it all, a damn king and religion drek fragging everywhere.

IIRC, the only gears in France as a few vehicles and a gun for the cops, slighlty better than standard equipment, but nil impossible to be acquired by runners....

[Fuchs]

There's a reason we play campaigns set in the US, and not in Switzerland or the rest of Europe over here. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far.

[Daddy's Litt...]

Both are flags of the UCAS. The modified Stars-and-Stripes one is the flag used from creation of the UCAS until 2057, the other the new UCAS flag used since 2057.
As to the change - it happened by popular vote. The old design was considered "too USAish", lacking proper representation of the formerly Canadian part of the UCAS.

I did not think there was too much left of "canada' to object and the people of Ontario were grateful to be taken in.

As for what happeend to your home questions. Heck. My parents are both Japanese. I'm doing fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[ravensmuse]

The mist is still there? I thought I read that the druids managed to beat that back...

[krakjen]

There's a reason we play campaigns set in the US, and not in Switzerland or the rest of Europe over here. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far.

Same here. I played in US mostly, once in Quebec and Russia/Siberia and I'd like to do a Ghost-in-the-Shell style campaign in Japan.
But I never played at "home". I just couldn't use the written material and I didn't feel like writing everything from scratch.
And anyway, I just think it's more easy to play in "exotic" locations (as in far away and/or not well known by the players).
As you said, Suspension of disbelief...

[hermit]

Are you kidding? We got a killing magic myst, a ridiculous sleeping dragon and worst of it all, a damn king and religion drek fragging everywhere.

IIRC, the only gears in France as a few vehicles and a gun for the cops, slighlty better than standard equipment, but nil impossible to be acquired by runners....

Please don't forget the "awesome" german stuff, like:
- for almost any US weapon in CC a weapon that's just better.
- 50% more vehicles, such as the Leopard III MBT b(the flavour text says it's the only major tabnk still propelled by tracks; then proceeds to list three similar models) or the Ruhrmetall Behemoth (a thunderbird tank with the frepower of four stonewalls, costing a tenth of what you'd pay for one FB Eagle, and a couple of other, though pretty useful cars (subcompacts, mercedes limousines) - and, of course, a luxury car twice as decadent as the Phaeton.
- a setting that has all there is in the SR world in a small area, giving it a slight theme park feel.
- setting information on every city with more than 75000 citizens. Look it up, that's a damn lot of cities, most of them utterly boring.
- Negamages (anti magic types whi have an Anti-Magic rating and special powers)
- Psionics, a new breed of mage, capable of conjuring something like sprites and, if toxified, summoning up peoples' shadows tokill them

... and finally, I KID YOU NOT, a new dwarf metavariant known as the Querx (speak quirks) that has blue skin, a stubby tail and no facial hair. Fortunatly, they only seem to live in Saxony, and game stats for them have been cut out of Germany II.

There's a reason we play campaigns set in the US, and not in Switzerland or the rest of Europe over here. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far.

Again, I so understand you. Though I admit I do like theBritish setting and the Tir na nOg. But that's just me and my weird elf stuff obsession. I'd love to play in Hong Kong, though, but my main characters all are UCAS based, in all but one case Seattlites.

I hate Pomorya, by the way, even it you could rationalise it as being Sosara (sic).

As for what happeend to your home questions. Heck. My parents are both Japanese. I'm doing fine. ninja.gif

Yeah, you guys were only portrayed as racist fascists., but with the ebbing off of the early 90s Japanophobia, that kind of slowly died down Then again ... ever read that elusive japanese SR book?

On that note, apparently, if I remember correctly, there's also been an hungarian SR sourcebook once. Has anyone ever read that?

[CanRay]

I did not think there was too much left of "canada' to object and the people of Ontario were grateful to be taken in.

*Cough* The Maritimes (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island... Before Dunkie bought it.), Labrador, Newfoundland, and Southern Manitoba.

More than just Ontario got accepted into the UCAS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[ravensmuse]

There was a Japanese only SR book? That must have been filled with Shirow-esque hijinx. It's this kind of stuff I love to read about here on Dumpshock; the obscure, the unknown, the stuff I've never heard of. So thanks.

For the matter, Boston only seems to exist when people die or get kidnapped. Our official slogan should be, "We're near New York City!"

Some dorkface extended the Boston sprawl allllll the way over to New York City in a Boston netbook I was linked to once. Right. New York City ain't that far away (couple of hours if you're willing to risk the Fung Wah buses), but I can't logically see turning all of Connecticut into sprawl...

[CanRay]

OK, double-checked the map. Looks like Quebec ate Labrador.

Now I'm angry. At Quebec Sepratists.

Bloody Seps.

[krakjen]

The mist is still there? I thought I read that the druids managed to beat that back...

In SotE, yes they did. But I was talking about the old barely-canon France sourcebook published by Descartes.
I didn't read the whole SotE, but seeing they left the whole royalty/religion aspect has seriously calmed me down.

[krakjen]

Please don't forget the "awesome" german stuff, like:
- for almost any US weapon in CC a weapon that's just better.
- 50% more vehicles, such as the Leopard III MBT b(the flavour text says it's the only major tabnk still propelled by tracks; then proceeds to list three similar models) or the Ruhrmetall Behemoth (a thunderbird tank with the frepower of four stonewalls, costing a tenth of what you'd pay for one FB Eagle, and a couple of other, though pretty useful cars (subcompacts, mercedes limousines) - and, of course, a luxury car twice as decadent as the Phaeton.
- a setting that has all there is in the SR world in a small area, giving it a slight theme park feel.
- setting information on every city with more than 75000 citizens. Look it up, that's a damn lot of cities, most of them utterly boring.
- Negamages (anti magic types whi have an Anti-Magic rating and special powers)
- Psionics, a new breed of mage, capable of conjuring something like sprites and, if toxified, summoning up peoples' shadows tokill them

Ho ho wow.
The two last ones are especially awesome.
And of course, by "awesome" I mean "HOLY CRAP! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?"

[ravensmuse]

Ho ho wow.
The two last ones are especially awesome.

Yeah, now that I'm re-reading that - maybe that has something to do with your technomancer dislike hermit? (kidding, kidding (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[hermit]

Well, yes, kinda, actually. The Psionics' machine ghosts were more physical and (IIRC) had no matrix presence, though.

But yeah. I dislike "I'm special and overpowered" character options in general (see my hate on Infected in the appropriate thread).

For the matter, Boston only seems to exist when people die or get kidnapped. Our official slogan should be, "We're near New York City!"

Uh ... Boston is where my non-Seattle character is from. I dunno, I kinda like Boston. For one, it's got this law firm where refugees of Star Trek casts find new jobs as senior and junior partners of a crazy law firm.

[Ryu]

Though I admit I do like theBritish setting and the Tir na nOg. But that's just me and my weird elf stuff obsession. I'd love to play in Hong Kong, though, but my main characters all are UCAS based, in all but one case Seattlites.

I hate Pomorya, by the way, even it you could rationalise it as being Sosara (sic).

Your postal code does not happen to be in the 31... area, no? You would so be welcome in my new campaign...

[hermit]

No, it's a 14XYZ. Too bad. You guys play in HK?

Or were you referring to the elfy weirdness bit?

[Ryu]

No, it's a 14XYZ. Too bad. You guys play in HK?

Or were you referring to the elfy weirdness bit?

The new campaign will be global, and I intent to visit my group upon TirNaNog, amongst others. "Wierd elf stuff" will be there in spades - we play ED, too, and the group is alligned with the Atlantean Foundation. The GF and I would love to play in HK, but it is unfortunately not within the rest of our group.

I think we would mesh well in SR, even if not all our opinions are the same. I keep my offer, should the oportunity arise.

[hermit]

Thanks, I really appreciate that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I kinda have made my peace with 4th, I think ... even converted my favourite character, for an attempt at playing, at a friends's nagging. I'll see whether a rigger can be made effective under 4th rules after all, but from abstract calculations, I'm fairly positive. Clustering is a great tool. Besides, since my friend is gonna GM and loves HK, I even get to play there!

Pretty rare that players actually like the elfy stuff, I feel.

If I happen to be in your area for more than a day, I'll totally have to drop by.

[MYST1C]

... and finally, I KID YOU NOT, a new dwarf metavariant known as the Querx (speak quirks) that has blue skin, a stubby tail and no facial hair. Fortunatly, they only seem to live in Saxony, and game stats for them have been cut out of Germany II.

Please, don't exaggerate. Querxes have a blueish tone to their skin but where does it say anything about a "tail" or beardlessness?

[MYST1C]

The two last ones are especially awesome.
And of course, by "awesome" I mean "HOLY CRAP! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?"

Well, the negamage was in one SR2 sourcebook (and has not been seen since, except in German novels), this special psionic in one SR3(?) sourcebook (and has not been seen since at all).

[hermit]

Please, don't exaggerate. Querxes have a blueish tone to their skin but where does it say anything about a "tail" or beardlessness?

DidS 2? Or maybe something ana uthor said once. Been a while since I toiched the Saxony chapter of DidS2. Anyway, blue skin and dwarf is enough, isn't it?

Papa Smurf has a beard too, now that I think of it.

Well, the negamage was in one SR2 sourcebook (and has not been seen since, except in German novels), this special psionic in one SR3(?) sourcebook (and has not been seen since at all).

Negamages were in Walzer, Punks udn Schwarzes Ice, though I am not sure whether they weren't in the German 2nd Edition Grimoire too.

The Psionic was in Brennpunkt: ADL, and IIRC in an official german adventure published in either Mephisto or WunderWelten magazine.

Yeah, they weren't put into any core book, but *they were there* ... you could reason they haven't been seen since because the german books have been discontinued.

[Jackstand]

For the matter, Boston only seems to exist when people die or get kidnapped. Our official slogan should be, "We're near New York City!"

Don't forget. Boston is the home city of Fuchi America/Novatech/Neonet, and, until the crash 2.0, was the home of the Stock Exchange, which had been relocated there from Manhattan.

[CanRay]

Not to mention the Toronto Stock Exchange.

[Matsci]

I think everyone hates what has been done to their area. A &(#%ing Pirate King in Morrow Bay?

(Is a californian who made the mistake of reading the Cal-free sourcebook.)

[FlakJacket]

I think everyone hates what has been done to their area. A &(#%ing Pirate King in Morrow Bay?

(Is a Californian who made the mistake of reading the Cal-free sourcebook.)

Bwahaha! Sorry I'm not laughing at you but what they did to California in the CalFree and later sourcebooks. Heh, I can remember whole threads about the California materiial that were pretty much nothing but bile and vitriol. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For real fun though you just have to get one of the resident Texans started about what FASA did to their state. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ravensmuse]

I'm speaking from a position of relative ignorance, since I was only able to really start picking through SR history within the last few years. With the exception of, I guess, a write up in Target:UCAS, that's all I've been able to find in reference to Boston (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The Toronto Stock Exchange is in Boston too? I knew the NY one was, and in the skeleton notes I have for running in the area I've made a note that it's still heavily corporate, even if the Exchange has shifted back to NYC.

Still think the German stuff is hilarious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

ETA: Listening to you guys sounds a lot like when White Wolf was getting a ton of shit over their write-ups of Europe / any place other than America back during 2nd Edition. They got Euro writers to handle that stuff during the Revised era, so things finally calmed down. Maybe they should hire writers from the area to do updates for all of these areas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Rasumichin]

Still think the German stuff is hilarious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It is...except for Cologne, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That chapter was so boring and so obviously written by devs from Düsseldorf, it made us want to play in Hamburg, Wuppertal (Zombietown! Love that place!) and even goddam Berlin (which was, without a doubt, the most hilarious, gonzoed-out part of all the original Germany Sourcebook whackiness).

[Chrysalis]

It's a hard choice, again we are dealing with speculative future and unfortunately what is realistic is not necessarily what is fun to play. I was really thinking of Finland which has gone from a relatively introverted country under a socialistic system where everything was equally poor to a surprisingly European country with a market economy and strong IT industry. Even without dragons (riight dragons hiding in Finland, maybe in Inari Lake, but not with a top soil of an average of 2 meters).

I foresee that Finland will continue to develop steadily in a similar fashion as it is now, with a possible population of 10 million to its current 6 million. In 2070 it will be eerily in the same situation as Germany in 2050 socially and 2080 technologically.

-Chrysalis

[Rasumichin]

I foresee that Finland will continue to develop steadily in a similar fashion as it is now, with a possible population of 10 million to its current 6 million. In 2070 it will be eerily in the same situation as Germany in 2050 socially and 2080 technologically.

Which would mean...favélas with plasma rifles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Chrysalis]

Which would mean...favélas with plasma rifles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Finland is far too flat to have favélas. I have a hard enough time owning a handgun let alone a plasma rifle, even if I was to allow such things to exist in 2070.

[hobgoblin]

It's a hard choice, again we are dealing with speculative future and unfortunately what is realistic is not necessarily what is fun to play. I was really thinking of Finland which has gone from a relatively introverted country under a socialistic system where everything was equally poor to a surprisingly European country with a market economy and strong IT industry. Even without dragons (riight dragons hiding in Finland, maybe in Inari Lake, but not with a top soil of an average of 2 meters).

I foresee that Finland will continue to develop steadily in a similar fashion as it is now, with a possible population of 10 million to its current 6 million. In 2070 it will be eerily in the same situation as Germany in 2050 socially and 2080 technologically.

-Chrysalis

your familiar with this, yes?

i would say that the SoE writeup is somewhat better then said page...

but thats with being part of the inital brainstorm, before the NDA started poping up (and i swear, some seed planted is still in there).

[Chrysalis]

your familiar with this, yes?

i would say that the SoE writeup is somewhat better then said page...

but thats with being part of the inital brainstorm, before the NDA started poping up (and i swear, some seed planted is still in there).

I have to say the website of the Scandinavian Federation is amusing. All of Scandinavia which includes Denmark (parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy), Iceland (parliamentary republic), Sweden (parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy)and Finland (parliamentary republic) while still have a communal legal history to 1100, each country between 1663 and 1878 have changed their governments to become mutually incompatible. Experiences with WWII and the cold war has put into place legislation to prevent the overthrow of parliament and their constitutions.

Of course Shadowrun ignores the concept of EU, UN and the other developments which have been going on in creating the transnational states of tomorrow.

[hermit]

In 2070 it will be eerily in the same situation as Germany in 2050 socially and 2080 technologically.

I certainly hope Finland will NOT be such a ridiculous society as 2050s Germany.

Of course Shadowrun ignores the concept of EU, UN and the other developments which have been going on in creating the transnational states of tomorrow.

Shadowrun is a product of the late 80s, which were all about new nationalism, with a huge state balcanising, a whole, supposedly incredibly powerful, block of nations falling apart, and was written by americans during the Reagan era. They try to get the transnational idea back in, but ... well, SR history has deviated from RL history in 1990, and that's that.

And wow. The ScanFed hp is still online! I remember it from back in ... the 90s? Gotta be the 90s. I'm ... impressed.

[Starglyte]

For real fun though you just have to get one of the resident Texans started about what FASA did to their state. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I like how we managed to haul the Alamo to Dallas/Ft. Worth during the war.

Maybe San Antonio (or maybe Austin) will get some love in the books ahead for Cities of Intrigue, but my guess is that Denver will get the North American slot (and rightfully so in my opinion). This is assuming that they continue with the trend that one of the big write ups is in North America.

[GrepZen]

Texas is a stockpile for weapons & anti-mexico gun nuts so any thought of Azatlan re-drawing the boarder is farsical at best. I'd have to agree with Starglyte on the Alamo move, it was humorous and was probably a bad in-joke made cannon.

[Cthulhudreams]

Snowflake sounds awesome. I love the name. But yes SR's grasp on history seems... quaint.

I love australia being turned into an inhospitable desert. But thats just dull compared to being.. snowflaked.

[Blade]

In SotE, yes they did. But I was talking about the old barely-canon France sourcebook published by Descartes.
I didn't read the whole SotE, but seeing they left the whole royalty/religion aspect has seriously calmed me down.

You missed the thing hidden in the Mist that nearly killed Lofwyr when he came to investigate, and the 29 Crash that was avoided thanks to our superior gateway (I guess the virus wasn't compatible with the Minitel network). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

SoE did a better job, and even if they kept the royalty/religion aspect (mostly because they couldn't throw everything away), I guess it's still salvageable. It's not a monarchy, it's just that a few big families are occupying all important positions in France... Which isn't actually that far from what you'll find today, except that today they aren't all ancient noble families.

Anyway, I've recently got the idea that Shadowrunning in France should be done as in "Les Tontons Flingueurs" which would be awesome.

[hermit]

I agree, the German settings as presented in SoE are much more enjoyable to play in ... though I still am pissed that Berlinw asn't one of the cities that were nuked by Winternight. At least, that way, the city could have started over from scratch, without dragging along all that anarchist bullshit.

[Blade]

I have to admit that putting back the Berlin wall was quite awkward. A walled city to contain anarchists, why not, but Berlin Wall 2.0 that's just ridiculous.

[ravensmuse]

the 29 Crash that was avoided thanks to our superior gateway (I guess the virus wasn't compatible with the Minitel network). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

I saw that when I did the research about the western dragon in Germany. "Quick! Disconnect the whole French network....Just in time!"

Wouldn't everyone want what's left over on that network then? It would mean that there are pre-Crash records on there, and who knows what kind of valuable information, even non-French information, could be stored on there?

*grin* Now there's a shadowrun. Was that particular bit of brilliance kept in SoE?

[Wesley Street]

For real fun though you just have to get one of the resident Texans started about what FASA did to their state.

I weep for those poor Texans and Californians... At least they get a mention and even dedicated sourcebooks. For all the years Shadowrun has been in publication I think the current Midwest has received, what, maybe two paragraphs of text? We must be too boring for cyberpunkin'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Run! Meta-corn!

[Sir_Psycho]

Isn't the midwest Tir Tairngire? or is that So-Cal?

Also, I found it pretty funny when I found out that my home city is surrounded by an awakened cloud that rains frogs, and people have just learned to deal with it. Also, there is a bunch of squatters living suspended from the Sydney Harbour Bridge. I have no idea how they would get away with that.

"Mate, that poor bloke is pitching a tent up on the bridge!"
"Shit! We better call the cops! Oi, Officer! That poor bugger is setting up shack on the bridge"
"Mate, we can't afford to deal with that now, the CBD is filled with bubbles!"

Hilarious.

Also, why are the europeans complaining? The USA got it's arse handed to them by indians, mexicans and elves, and then to add insult to injury, had to join forces with canada. Russia is basically a railway to japan, and that's about it. And you're worried that Germany turned a bit religious? Mexicans now worship snakes and bloodsports. Japan is run by a child.

[Rasumichin]

Isn't the midwest Tir Tairngire? or is that So-Cal?

That's the pacific northwest, i think.
Wouldn't the midwest be NAN territory?

[Zartes]

Same here. I played in US mostly, once in Quebec and Russia/Siberia and I'd like to do a Ghost-in-the-Shell style campaign in Japan.
But I never played at "home". I just couldn't use the written material and I didn't feel like writing everything from scratch.
And anyway, I just think it's more easy to play in "exotic" locations (as in far away and/or not well known by the players).
As you said, Suspension of disbelief...

Coming in a bit late, but anyway...

My group (who haven't played yet, but will soon) weren't particularly interested in SR until I suggested I set it in Australia (where we all live). Suddenly they're all really keen.

Of course, its got Wombricks. You just can't say no to something with Wombricks.

Oh, while I'm here, a little thread-jack: anything interested in happened in Oz since 2062? (i.e. when Target: Awakened Lands was set)

[Wesley Street]

That's the pacific northwest, i think.
Wouldn't the midwest be NAN territory?

Tir Tairngire is what used to be Oregon. The Midwest is traditionally considered to be Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio, and Wisconsin. Go further west and you hit the Plains states. Those are what were succeeded to the NAN until you hit Cali and the Tir on the west coast.

I take back my original grump-post. We got Chicago and Detroit which have been decently fleshed out. I'd still be curious as to what farm-town life is like in 2070. Anyone want to stat out a rigger-adapted corn combine for me?

[hobgoblin]

heh, im guessing that agricorps and awakened pests have more or less driven the independent farmer out of the area.

[Caine Hazen]

As a note, that Midwest area was more commonly refered to as the "Rust Belt" by some. Judging by the fact that Ares seems to have brought lots of manufacturing back into the UCAS, and probably SaderKrupp depending on such things, those areas may have seen a resurgence. Kinda nice that it isn't fleshed out completely as it gives us some room to grow it all.

As a side note, I've alway thought with the already existing infrastructure, and massive numbers of airports in the area, Wright-Patt here would probably be the new UCAS AF HQ, since TAC and SAC would have lost their big big bases to the NAN. Probably moved the AF Academy out that way as well. I'd also imagined the sprawl of Dayton would have been claimed by the military/industrial complex since quite a few companies would benifit from being right where the top brass of the force are.

[hobgoblin]

hey, isnt ares basically the military/industrial complex?

[FlakJacket]

They are the largest armaments megacorporation, fairly chummy with the UCAS government - IIRC they run a joint Delta clinic with them - and whilst they've built up a fairly decent image as the 'national' and 'American' corporation they aren't the only armaments manufacturers out there. Off the top of my head you've got Integrated Weapon Systems, Dassault, Esprit Industries and all the others that I'm sure Nath could pull out from the sourcebooks.

On the original question of why the region hasn't been covered best guess is that aside from Chicago and Detroit which they actually did something with they decided not to bother because they hadn't come up with anything interesting or that fit in with the then current story lines. If it's going to be boring and a list of generic UCAS cities better they leave GMs a blank canvas to do whatever they feel like rather than tying them down with canon if they stick to the published material.

One thing I did notice about the area was that the CAS lost about half of Missouri to the UCAS, who promptly gave their part the highly original name of North Missouri, and that St. Louis got split in half with the CAS getting everything west of the river and the UCAS everything to the east. Now it's no Boise but could provide a fairly decent setting.

[hermit]

They are the largest armaments megacorporation, fairly chummy with the UCAS government - IIRC they run a joint Delta clinic with them - and whilst they've built up a fairly decent image as the 'national' and 'American' corporation they aren't the only armaments manufacturers out there. Off the top of my head you've got Integrated Weapon Systems, Dassault, Esprit Industries and all the others that I'm sure Nath could pull out from the sourcebooks.

Given that,. despite being best known for their military part, Ares also is big in consumer goods of all kinds, I think saying Ares = OCP gives a good idea of what the corp propably looks like.

[Jackstand]

They are the largest armaments megacorporation, fairly chummy with the UCAS government - IIRC they run a joint Delta clinic with them - and whilst they've built up a fairly decent image as the 'national' and 'American' corporation they aren't the only armaments manufacturers out there. Off the top of my head you've got Integrated Weapon Systems, Dassault, Esprit Industries and all the others that I'm sure Nath could pull out from the sourcebooks.

Don't forget about Federated Boeing.

[FlakJacket]

Given that, despite being best known for their military part, Ares also is big in consumer goods of all kinds, I think saying Ares = OCP gives a good idea of what the corp probably looks like.

Oh undoubtedly, as a triple A mergacorporation it can't help but have it's fingers in nearly all of the pies to some extent it's just that because in early sourcebooks it was linked so closely to firearms it became 'the gun company'. As to the OCP comparison quite apt considering that Ares effectively bought out Detroit and turned it into a company town. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wesley Street]

I have no doubt that Robocop's OCP was the inspiration for FASA to develop Ares Macro. "All-American", native-Detroit, charismatic leadership... stuff with guns poking out.

[krakjen]

You missed the thing hidden in the Mist that nearly killed Lofwyr when he came to investigate, and the 29 Crash that was avoided thanks to our superior gateway (I guess the virus wasn't compatible with the Minitel network). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

Haha yeah, I forgot about that.
It's still that 'WE ARE BETTER/SPECIAL" aspect. Superior matrix fuck yeah!

SoE did a better job, and even if they kept the royalty/religion aspect (mostly because they couldn't throw everything away), I guess it's still salvageable. It's not a monarchy, it's just that a few big families are occupying all important positions in France... Which isn't actually that far from what you'll find today, except that today they aren't all ancient noble families.

Indeed, you're right.

Anyway, I've recently got the idea that Shadowrunning in France should be done as in "Les Tontons Flingueurs" which would be awesome.

Hooo, that's a pretty neat idea.
Now all you need is writing Audiard-style dialogs for your NPCs.
And the ridiculous sounding silencer of course...

[Blade]

Yes, and a bottle of a weird and strong alcohol (with my apologies to the non-French member of this board who can't appreciate this fine piece of cinematographic culture)

[Fuchs]

Yes, and a bottle of a weird and strong alcohol (with my apologies to the non-French member of this board who can't appreciate this fine piece of cinematographic culture)

I am trying to order that DVD right now, actually, despite not being french. I thought dvdboxoffice would have it in stock, being in Canada, but no luck so far.

[krakjen]

Yes, and a bottle of a weird and strong alcohol (with my apologies to the non-French member of this board who can't appreciate this fine piece of cinematographic culture)

Is that some apple in it?

I am trying to order that DVD right now, actually, despite not being french. I thought dvdboxoffice would have it in stock, being in Canada, but no luck so far.

You could try ebay...

[Fuchs]

Ordered on amazon.fr

[Snow_Fox]

Belgium eventually divided into two countries - Wallonia (later became part of France) and Flanders (later became part of the United Netherlands).
I just looked it up in SoE: Wallonia and Flanders split in 2016.

Because of tensions between the two groups it is thought by many this is what will eventually happen. The only problem is Brussells is a Walloon city in Flemmish country.
Of course look at the SR date 21016. In 1815 The Emperor Napoleon had written pamphlets to be distributed to the walloons saying that fate had seperated them from France, but soon they would be welcomed back. OK so he was off by 201 years but he had vision. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beret.gif)
Unfortunately he was looking way down the road and missed what was on the road just south of the town of Waterloo.

[MYST1C]

The only problem is Brussells is a Walloon city in Flemmish country.

I visited Brussels in spring and it was interesting how bilingual that city is - every street sign in both languages, shops with French markings (and French-speaking employees) side by side with Dutch-speaking shops, people conversing with one person speaking French and the other Dutch, or switching language in mid-sentence...

[W@geMage]

Contrary to what most international news says it isn't so much the language that causes friction between the 2 states.
The split is more about economics and institutions than linguistics.
If split, Flanders would be one of the richest countries in Europe and Wallonia one of the poorest.

They have different public opinions and have different ideas on how to apply responsibility and manage the Belgian institutions.
Wallonia would like a federal approach to most problems, and Flanders sees more future in local responsibility for local challenges coupled with the European regulations for federal stuff.

[CanRay]

Contrary to what most international news says it isn't so much the language that causes friction between the 2 states.
The split is more about economics and institutions than linguistics.

Or tradition and history, in the case of Quebec.

At least, that's all I can figure out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)