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Boscrossos
I was looking over the 6th world wiki, and I noticed my home country of Belgium apparently doesn't exist anymore in 2070. I only started reading the books from 4th edition, so I can't help but wonder what happened that made our country apparently a part of France (according to the map of Europe). Anyone care to enlighten me?
Shiloh
QUOTE (Boscrossos @ Jul 29 2008, 03:21 PM) *
I was looking over the 6th world wiki, and I noticed my home country of Belgium apparently doesn't exist anymore in 2070. I only started reading the books from 4th edition, so I can't help but wonder what happened that made our country apparently a part of France (according to the map of Europe). Anyone care to enlighten me?

Ooo. Interesting... Have any of the other Euro-nations been expunged/incorporated... Have Luxembourg and Lichtenstein survived, or been hegemonised?
Ancient History
I think those two were eaten by the SOX.

I know how you feel man, I'm of Walloon stock meself.
CanRay
I'm just glad my Country is still around.

Sort of.

Well, we got Top Billing, at least...
Ryu
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 29 2008, 04:39 PM) *
I'm just glad my Country is still around.

Sort of.


Different country, same sentiment wink.gif A dark future awaits.
Wesley Street
So what's considered to be the official UCAS flag? The one that looks like an American flag but with maple leaves where there were stars (from The Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America)? Or this one?

Anyone have a "No Prize" explanation as to the change? wink.gif
krakjen
OM NOMNOMNOMNOM
MYST1C
QUOTE (Boscrossos @ Jul 29 2008, 04:21 PM) *
I only started reading the books from 4th edition, so I can't help but wonder what happened that made our country apparently a part of France (according to the map of Europe). Anyone care to enlighten me?

Belgium eventually divided into two countries - Wallonia (later became part of France) and Flanders (later became part of the United Netherlands).
I just looked it up in SoE: Wallonia and Flanders split in 2016.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Jul 29 2008, 06:39 PM) *
So what's considered to be the official UCAS flag? The one that looks like an American flag but with maple leaves where there were stars (from The Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America)? Or this one?

Anyone have a "No Prize" explanation as to the change? wink.gif

Both are flags of the UCAS. The modified Stars-and-Stripes one is the flag used from creation of the UCAS until 2057, the other the new UCAS flag used since 2057.
As to the change - it happened by popular vote. The old design was considered "too USAish", lacking proper representation of the formerly Canadian part of the UCAS.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jul 29 2008, 04:25 PM) *
Have Luxembourg and Lichtenstein survived, or been hegemonised?

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 29 2008, 04:33 PM) *
I think those two were eaten by the SOX.

Luxembourg is indeed part of the SOX (SOX is short for "Saar-Lorraine-Luxembourg"). Liechtenstein (which is located between Switzerland and Austria, hundreds of kilometers from SOX, AH!) seem to have been annexed into Switzerland (no border on the Switzerland map in SoE).
CanRay
I go with the new one. There's a reason for the Red Stripes on the left and right of the Canadian Flag, and I'm happy they're re-represented on the top and bottom (Probably for the same reason.).

The Stars propbably represent the remaining States in the UCAS, while the Leaves represent the remaining Provinces. Combines the best of both flags.

smile.gif
MJBurrage
What is the original source of the wiki flag?

Is the 2057 flag change described in a previous post canon, or just explaining a fan created flag?

Given that UCAS is much more United States than Canada (population, inhabited area, Senate representation, capital is Washington D.C., etc.) the flag that most looks like the current "stars and stripes" is much more likely politically speaking, and still canon AFAIK.
CanRay
The original source is here, which, considering the source, I'm pretty sure we can bet it's Cannon. nyahnyah.gif
MJBurrage
Thanks, I looked at the website before posting but missed the link to that page (my bad)

I do not have SONA handy, does it explain the change (as noted above), or just show a new UCAS flag with no back story?
CanRay
SONA does not appear to explain the flag.
MYST1C
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Jul 29 2008, 09:57 PM) *
I do not have SONA handy, does it explain the change (as noted above), or just show a new UCAS flag with no back story?

Actually, the first depiction of the new flag is older than SoNA (2057 was in the SR2 era) - I think I saw it in Super Tuesday or maybe Target: UCAS? (I own neither so I can't look it up.)
Ryu
QUOTE (MYST1C @ Jul 29 2008, 10:22 PM) *
Actually, the first depiction of the new flag is older than SoNA (2057 was in the SR2 era) - I think I saw it in Super Tuesday or maybe Target: UCAS? (I own neither so I can't look it up.)


Super Tuesday has the old flag. Oddly enough I canĀ“t seem to find a single flag in Target:UCAS.
hermit
QUOTE (Boscrossos @ Jul 29 2008, 04:21 PM) *
I was looking over the 6th world wiki, and I noticed my home country of Belgium apparently doesn't exist anymore in 2070. I only started reading the books from 4th edition, so I can't help but wonder what happened that made our country apparently a part of France (according to the map of Europe). Anyone care to enlighten me?

Belgium broke into two, Wallonia was assimilated into France, and Flanders was assimilated into the Netherlands - who were happy because they regained about as much land as the Black Tide had cost them. SR central Europa has a much different coastline. Brussels is an enclave run by the NEEC, SR's version of the EU.

Sadly, that's not quite as far out there as other balcanisations the SR setting is propagating. From the state the country is in now, 2016 sounds kind of optimistic.

However, better this way than having your country turned into something ridiculous because the authors felt they had to cram everything there was in North America into something the size of Georgia, and then some more, truely batshit insane stuff, cause it's cool.

QUOTE
Luxembourg is indeed part of the SOX (SOX is short for "Saar-Lorraine-Luxembourg"). Liechtenstein (which is located between Switzerland and Austria, hundreds of kilometers from SOX, AH!) seem to have been annexed into Switzerland (no border on the Switzerland map in SoE).

In Chrom&Dioxin, the german SB from where the switzerland of SoE was mainly imported, Liechtenstein does exist. I suppose it was overseen in the SoE map because it's half the size of Manhattan. Of course, the map of switzerland in C&D was a cutout from a 90s Shell roadmap, so that might aly play into the fact of Liechtenstein being mentioned there.
Boscrossos
QUOTE (MYST1C @ Jul 29 2008, 08:21 PM) *
Belgium eventually divided into two countries - Wallonia (later became part of France) and Flanders (later became part of the United Netherlands).
I just looked it up in SoE: Wallonia and Flanders split in 2016.



That's strangely prophetic, seeing as the current political crisis in Belgium is centered entirely around people fearing this will happen.

Anyhoo, thanks for clearing that up for me.
Synner
QUOTE (Boscrossos @ Jul 30 2008, 09:30 AM) *
That's strangely prophetic, seeing as the current political crisis in Belgium is centered entirely around people fearing this will happen.

We aim to please. Shadows of Europe was written by Europeans who were/are aware of the political and social issues of our continent. Though we were constrained to a certain extent by existing canon, we tried to adjust as much as possible to make things believable and relevant (hence the changes to Switzerland and Austria vs the original German material, France vs. the Descartes material, UK vs. London SB, etc).

Still my favorite project after all these years.
krakjen
QUOTE (Synner @ Jul 30 2008, 10:42 AM) *
France vs. the Descartes material

Yeah, never been a fan of this.
Too much "LOOK AT US WE ARE MORE SPECIAL" (the fuckhuge dragon, the mist (okay, the mist was pretty cool), etc)
But what I really have issue with, is the come back of royalty/church.
We beheaded our king after the revolution of 1789 damnit and we are a secular state (not really sure of the term: separation of church and state) since 1905.
It just can't happen.

Sorry about the rant.
Chrysalis
QUOTE (krakjen @ Jul 29 2008, 07:39 PM) *
OM NOMNOMNOMNOM


Hun, close your mouth when you are eating or else we will enroll you in a catholic all girls school in Bruge.
hermit
@krakjen: I so understand your frustration. Same with the German setting.
Chrysalis
Uups, double post
ravensmuse
QUOTE (krakjen @ Jul 30 2008, 05:51 AM) *
the fuckhuge dragon


Fuckhuge dragon in France, says I, what the heck are they talking about?

QUOTE (Some Wikipedia Article)
The Dragon of Auvergne
After the eruption of the Auvergne volcanoes in 2011, a dragon was discovered lying in the crater of the Puy de Sancy. It is "certainly the largest Great Western Dragons" ever seen, 30 or 40 meters long, with a wingspan of 50 meters.

That...that sounds like something out of a squealing twenty-six year old fangirl's wildest dreams.

QUOTE
Sorry about the rant.

So no, I think you're entirely justified in ranting smile.gif
krakjen
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Jul 30 2008, 01:30 PM) *
Hun, close your mouth when you are eating or else we will enroll you in a catholic all girls school in Bruge.

That's don't seem like much of a threat.
krakjen
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 30 2008, 01:30 PM) *
@krakjen: I so understand your frustration. Same with the German setting.

Good to know I'm not the only one smile.gif
hermit
QUOTE
That...that sounds like something out of a squealing twenty-six year old fangirl's wildest dreams.

Oh, I can top that! You see, in the original german-only Switzerland setting, there was a "fuckhuge dragon" that was all fluffy feathers and called Snowflake!

QUOTE
Good to know I'm not the only one

Returned monarchies and theocracies, c'me on ... in a country that's maybe got 20% practicing christians. Right. And Saxony a monarchoy ... eh. I could see it turning a Nazi haven - it practically is now, after all - but a renaissance-ish monarchy that is a haven to mercenaries running about like soldiers of the 30 years war. I somehow don't see that. Not to mention how a state consisting of three very conservative and one modern democracy, three toalitarian monarchies, one batshit crazy theocracy and two equally batshit crazy metahuman states with no economy at all, but incredible wealth, could possibly be kept together when a comparably homogenous state like belgium is just right now desintegrating.

And don't say Lofwyr. SK is made out to be one mega among many local megas ... megas noone ever hears about outside Germany, but who apparently totally outrun SK in it's core fields of industrial chemicals (AG Chemie), industrial machinery (Ruhrmetall), heavy weaponry (Ruhrmetall), finances and dragon leadership (Frankfurter Bankenverein), economical unfeasibility (Proteus!) and batshit crazyness (Proteus again!).
Fuchs
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 30 2008, 01:30 PM) *
@krakjen: I so understand your frustration. Same with the German setting.


Same with the Switzerland setting.
krakjen
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 30 2008, 01:52 PM) *
Oh, I can top that! You see, in the original german-only Switzerland setting, there was a "fuckhuge dragon" that was all fluffy feathers and called Snowflake!

QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 30 2008, 01:52 PM) *
Same with the Switzerland setting.

What, you don't like Snowflake?
ravensmuse
So on one hand, you Europeans get all sorts of fun stuff like crazy over the top nukes, fuckawesome guns, and apparently your brand of cybereyes.

On the other, you got Snowflake.

I think that's all I need to say about that.

(I'm hoping that Snowflake got written out?)
krakjen
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Jul 30 2008, 02:05 PM) *
So on one hand, you Europeans get all sorts of fun stuff like crazy over the top nukes, fuckawesome guns, and apparently your brand of cybereyes.

On the other, you got Snowflake.

I think that's all I need to say about that.

(I'm hoping that Snowflake got written out?)

Are you kidding? We got a killing magic myst, a ridiculous sleeping dragon and worst of it all, a damn king and religion drek fragging everywhere.

IIRC, the only gears in France as a few vehicles and a gun for the cops, slighlty better than standard equipment, but nil impossible to be acquired by runners....
Fuchs
There's a reason we play campaigns set in the US, and not in Switzerland or the rest of Europe over here. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far.
Daddy's Little Ninja
QUOTE (MYST1C @ Jul 29 2008, 01:25 PM) *
Both are flags of the UCAS. The modified Stars-and-Stripes one is the flag used from creation of the UCAS until 2057, the other the new UCAS flag used since 2057.
As to the change - it happened by popular vote. The old design was considered "too USAish", lacking proper representation of the formerly Canadian part of the UCAS.
I did not think there was too much left of "canada' to object and the people of Ontario were grateful to be taken in.

As for what happeend to your home questions. Heck. My parents are both Japanese. I'm doing fine. ninja.gif
ravensmuse
The mist is still there? I thought I read that the druids managed to beat that back...
krakjen
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 30 2008, 02:33 PM) *
There's a reason we play campaigns set in the US, and not in Switzerland or the rest of Europe over here. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far.

Same here. I played in US mostly, once in Quebec and Russia/Siberia and I'd like to do a Ghost-in-the-Shell style campaign in Japan.
But I never played at "home". I just couldn't use the written material and I didn't feel like writing everything from scratch.
And anyway, I just think it's more easy to play in "exotic" locations (as in far away and/or not well known by the players).
As you said, Suspension of disbelief...
hermit
QUOTE (krakjen @ Jul 30 2008, 02:31 PM) *
Are you kidding? We got a killing magic myst, a ridiculous sleeping dragon and worst of it all, a damn king and religion drek fragging everywhere.

IIRC, the only gears in France as a few vehicles and a gun for the cops, slighlty better than standard equipment, but nil impossible to be acquired by runners....

Please don't forget the "awesome" german stuff, like:
- for almost any US weapon in CC a weapon that's just better.
- 50% more vehicles, such as the Leopard III MBT b(the flavour text says it's the only major tabnk still propelled by tracks; then proceeds to list three similar models) or the Ruhrmetall Behemoth (a thunderbird tank with the frepower of four stonewalls, costing a tenth of what you'd pay for one FB Eagle, and a couple of other, though pretty useful cars (subcompacts, mercedes limousines) - and, of course, a luxury car twice as decadent as the Phaeton.
- a setting that has all there is in the SR world in a small area, giving it a slight theme park feel.
- setting information on every city with more than 75000 citizens. Look it up, that's a damn lot of cities, most of them utterly boring.
- Negamages (anti magic types whi have an Anti-Magic rating and special powers)
- Psionics, a new breed of mage, capable of conjuring something like sprites and, if toxified, summoning up peoples' shadows tokill them

... and finally, I KID YOU NOT, a new dwarf metavariant known as the Querx (speak quirks) that has blue skin, a stubby tail and no facial hair. Fortunatly, they only seem to live in Saxony, and game stats for them have been cut out of Germany II.

QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 30 2008, 02:33 PM) *
There's a reason we play campaigns set in the US, and not in Switzerland or the rest of Europe over here. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far.

Again, I so understand you. Though I admit I do like theBritish setting and the Tir na nOg. But that's just me and my weird elf stuff obsession. I'd love to play in Hong Kong, though, but my main characters all are UCAS based, in all but one case Seattlites.

I hate Pomorya, by the way, even it you could rationalise it as being Sosara (sic).

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Jul 30 2008, 02:41 PM) *
As for what happeend to your home questions. Heck. My parents are both Japanese. I'm doing fine. ninja.gif

Yeah, you guys were only portrayed as racist fascists., but with the ebbing off of the early 90s Japanophobia, that kind of slowly died down Then again ... ever read that elusive japanese SR book?

On that note, apparently, if I remember correctly, there's also been an hungarian SR sourcebook once. Has anyone ever read that?
CanRay
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Jul 30 2008, 07:41 AM) *
I did not think there was too much left of "canada' to object and the people of Ontario were grateful to be taken in.

*Cough* The Maritimes (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island... Before Dunkie bought it.), Labrador, Newfoundland, and Southern Manitoba.

More than just Ontario got accepted into the UCAS. nyahnyah.gif
ravensmuse
There was a Japanese only SR book? That must have been filled with Shirow-esque hijinx. It's this kind of stuff I love to read about here on Dumpshock; the obscure, the unknown, the stuff I've never heard of. So thanks.

For the matter, Boston only seems to exist when people die or get kidnapped. Our official slogan should be, "We're near New York City!"

Some dorkface extended the Boston sprawl allllll the way over to New York City in a Boston netbook I was linked to once. Right. New York City ain't that far away (couple of hours if you're willing to risk the Fung Wah buses), but I can't logically see turning all of Connecticut into sprawl...
CanRay
OK, double-checked the map. Looks like Quebec ate Labrador.

Now I'm angry. At Quebec Sepratists.

Bloody Seps.
krakjen
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Jul 30 2008, 02:41 PM) *
The mist is still there? I thought I read that the druids managed to beat that back...

In SotE, yes they did. But I was talking about the old barely-canon France sourcebook published by Descartes.
I didn't read the whole SotE, but seeing they left the whole royalty/religion aspect has seriously calmed me down.
krakjen
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 30 2008, 02:48 PM) *
Please don't forget the "awesome" german stuff, like:
- for almost any US weapon in CC a weapon that's just better.
- 50% more vehicles, such as the Leopard III MBT b(the flavour text says it's the only major tabnk still propelled by tracks; then proceeds to list three similar models) or the Ruhrmetall Behemoth (a thunderbird tank with the frepower of four stonewalls, costing a tenth of what you'd pay for one FB Eagle, and a couple of other, though pretty useful cars (subcompacts, mercedes limousines) - and, of course, a luxury car twice as decadent as the Phaeton.
- a setting that has all there is in the SR world in a small area, giving it a slight theme park feel.
- setting information on every city with more than 75000 citizens. Look it up, that's a damn lot of cities, most of them utterly boring.
- Negamages (anti magic types whi have an Anti-Magic rating and special powers)
- Psionics, a new breed of mage, capable of conjuring something like sprites and, if toxified, summoning up peoples' shadows tokill them

Ho ho wow.
The two last ones are especially awesome.
And of course, by "awesome" I mean "HOLY CRAP! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?"
ravensmuse
QUOTE (krakjen @ Jul 30 2008, 09:23 AM) *
Ho ho wow.
The two last ones are especially awesome.

Yeah, now that I'm re-reading that - maybe that has something to do with your technomancer dislike hermit? (kidding, kidding smile.gif)
hermit
Well, yes, kinda, actually. The Psionics' machine ghosts were more physical and (IIRC) had no matrix presence, though.

But yeah. I dislike "I'm special and overpowered" character options in general (see my hate on Infected in the appropriate thread).

QUOTE
For the matter, Boston only seems to exist when people die or get kidnapped. Our official slogan should be, "We're near New York City!"

Uh ... Boston is where my non-Seattle character is from. I dunno, I kinda like Boston. For one, it's got this law firm where refugees of Star Trek casts find new jobs as senior and junior partners of a crazy law firm.
Ryu
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 30 2008, 02:48 PM) *
Though I admit I do like theBritish setting and the Tir na nOg. But that's just me and my weird elf stuff obsession. I'd love to play in Hong Kong, though, but my main characters all are UCAS based, in all but one case Seattlites.

I hate Pomorya, by the way, even it you could rationalise it as being Sosara (sic).


Your postal code does not happen to be in the 31... area, no? You would so be welcome in my new campaign...
hermit
No, it's a 14XYZ. Too bad. You guys play in HK?

Or were you referring to the elfy weirdness bit?
Ryu
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 30 2008, 07:53 PM) *
No, it's a 14XYZ. Too bad. You guys play in HK?

Or were you referring to the elfy weirdness bit?


The new campaign will be global, and I intent to visit my group upon TirNaNog, amongst others. "Wierd elf stuff" will be there in spades - we play ED, too, and the group is alligned with the Atlantean Foundation. The GF and I would love to play in HK, but it is unfortunately not within the rest of our group.

I think we would mesh well in SR, even if not all our opinions are the same. I keep my offer, should the oportunity arise.
hermit
Thanks, I really appreciate that. smile.gif I kinda have made my peace with 4th, I think ... even converted my favourite character, for an attempt at playing, at a friends's nagging. I'll see whether a rigger can be made effective under 4th rules after all, but from abstract calculations, I'm fairly positive. Clustering is a great tool. Besides, since my friend is gonna GM and loves HK, I even get to play there!

Pretty rare that players actually like the elfy stuff, I feel.

If I happen to be in your area for more than a day, I'll totally have to drop by.
MYST1C
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 30 2008, 02:48 PM) *
... and finally, I KID YOU NOT, a new dwarf metavariant known as the Querx (speak quirks) that has blue skin, a stubby tail and no facial hair. Fortunatly, they only seem to live in Saxony, and game stats for them have been cut out of Germany II.

Please, don't exaggerate. Querxes have a blueish tone to their skin but where does it say anything about a "tail" or beardlessness?
MYST1C
QUOTE (krakjen @ Jul 30 2008, 03:23 PM) *
The two last ones are especially awesome.
And of course, by "awesome" I mean "HOLY CRAP! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?"

Well, the negamage was in one SR2 sourcebook (and has not been seen since, except in German novels), this special psionic in one SR3(?) sourcebook (and has not been seen since at all).
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