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[Cang]

I am making this post in hopes of having a cleaner thread about it.

Likes:
I always love qualities and lifestyles. I also like the metavarient and the infected section.

Dislikes:
No offensive to people who do things i cannot, but the art in the metavarient area was somewhat not clear on the looks (probable because of the lot of them in few pictures. Also, i am going to have players begging me to play out of the world characters because "its in a core book" haha. But i also like the variety so i can't really complain there to much.

Questions:
I know that drawing ED and SR parralels get more and more unfashionable as time goes on but would i be too off base if i guessed the that pixies and free spirits (or changelings) could be considered the winglings and obsidians come back respectively. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Ancient History]

Pixies, maybe. Obsidimen, no.

[Cang]

Well i knew i was stretching it with the Obsidimen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Cold-Dragon]

I enjoyed pretty much everything in there (even if it was something I didn't have much interest in). Lots of good stuff to throw a loop somewhere.

My only real complaint I can think of is the aura of mystery around some things, like the drakeforms - I understand no one really knows much about it, but one could have made it a bit more mysterious in detail than just 'we don't know jack'.

Still, leaves room for personal house-storytelling, so its a small complaint.

[Wanderer]

Pixies, maybe. Obsidimen, no.

Well, admittedly Granite Shell looks terribly like Obsidimen metagenes activating... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Ancient History]

Except obisidimen don't breed. They have Other Ways to reproduce.

[User McUser]

Also, i am going to have players begging me to play out of the world characters because "its in a core book" haha. But i also like the variety so i can't really complain there to much.

Except that Runner's Companion is NOT a core book. It's essentially all optional rules, and as they say like a million times in that book "ultimately it's up to the game master's discretion."

[Wanderer]

Except that Runner's Companion is NOT a core book. It's essentially all optional rules, and as they say like a million times in that book "ultimately it's up to the game master's discretion."

Just like everything else in every other rulebook of any RPG, basically, corebooks most definitely not excluded. I find this attitude, that corebooks are sacred, but supplemental reulebooks are ephemeral, endlessly silly. As far as I'm concerned, everything can be houseruled, but rulebooks are rulebooks. I see no difference whatsoever between SR4, and Arsenal, Street Magic, Augmentation, Unwired, or Runner's Companion. I buy books to use them.

[Johnny Jacks]

Pixies, maybe. Obsidimen, no.

Come on. Windlings are 18 inch tall elves with dragonfly wings who can see astrally and have a great Karma Step. Pixes are 45cm (18.27 inch) tall elves with dragonfly wings who can see astrally and have above average Edge. Except for Concealment and Vanishing they're identical.

[Ancient History]

You realize you're talking to the guy that wrote up pixies, yaar? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Johnny Jacks]

You realize you're talking to the guy that wrote up pixies, yaar? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Actually, I thought you only wrote up Infected, my bad. You're my hero by the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Ancient History]

My chunk of RC was Infected, Drakes, Sapient Critters, Shapeshifters, and Karma-based CharGen. You may feel free to bitch and kvetch at me for any of the above.

[MJBurrage]

Windlings = Sprites has been clear since Paranormal Animals of Europe.
Obsidiman, being living stone, may still need a higher mana level to return.

But what about T'skrang? They should exist again by now.

[NightmareX]

VITAS = no t'skrang (or obsidimen)? That's the assumption I've always worked with.

[Large Mike]

Seriously, AH? I thought they were written by perfect robots from the future. I thought that's why they are treated like the Torah, rather than a helpful guide.

Perfect robots from the future.

[Ancient History]

<beep><beep>Hello, world.<beep>I was there when the strength of men failed, Mr. Anderson.<beep>Daisy, daisy, give me your answer do...

[Johnny Jacks]

But what about T'skrang? They should exist again by now.

Well, they didn't have significant stat boosts in Earthdawn, so a SURGE'd human would be pretty close.

[Malicant]

My only real complaint I can think of is the aura of mystery around some things, like the drakeforms - I understand no one really knows much about it, but one could have made it a bit more mysterious in detail than just 'we don't know jack'.

There is not much mystery to Drakes. Well, on the metagame informtion side of things.
Dragons needed servants, because the plan using IEs failed big time, so one of them came up with the method of creating Drakes. Some time later they discovered (more like stumbled upon) a method to create Drakes that breed true, saving a shitload of work. End of story.
This has been covered (minus some minor details with no real relevance) in Dragons of the Sixth World.

[Synner]

We will be revisiting some of mysteries and speculation about the various races/species and other strangenesses in Running Wild. Runner's Companion was pretty full as is.

[Synner667]

Except obisidimen don't breed. They have Other Ways to reproduce.

Erm...
...Since "breed" and "reproduce" both relate to producing offspring, how do you consider them to be different ??

[Synner667]

Just like everything else in every other rulebook of any RPG, basically, corebooks most definitely not excluded. I find this attitude, that corebooks are sacred, but supplemental reulebooks are ephemeral, endlessly silly. As far as I'm concerned, everything can be houseruled, but rulebooks are rulebooks. I see no difference whatsoever between SR4, and Arsenal, Street Magic, Augmentation, Unwired, or Runner's Companion. I buy books to use them.

I've always taken the guide that it's a core book when it gets referred to by the rules and/or scenarios.

And I've always felt that any RPG that needs supplemental books to be usable/complete is pretty rubbish, as the core game in the core rulebook can't stand on its own.

[Synner]

For what its worth, Catalyst considers Runner's Companion a core rulebook (same as Street Magic, Augmentation, Arsenal and Unwired). Though many of the character options and rules are optional, many are not.

[Grinder]

Erm...
...Since "breed" and "reproduce" both relate to producing offspring, how do you consider them to be different ??

Obsidimen don't have that bees and flowers stuff. New Obsidimen are created within a Liferock and not by filthy sex. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Isath]

Maybe I am getting you wrong Synner667 (neighbor of the Synner) but SR4 is perfectly playable with only THE core-rulebook. While the "expansion" core-rulebooks might be core rules as well, they are not really needed - they are nice to have though.

[Blue eyes]

Finished the book, liked it alot not really anything to complain about, besides maybe some of the art but otherwise it's perfect imo! Great job guys!

You realize you're talking to the guy that wrote up pixies, yaar? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Great job on that AH, it was a joy to read and see pixies/windlings get the spotlight they deserve in the 6th world (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Looking forward to reading more about these newly introduced races in Running Wild.

[hermit]

Pixies, maybe. Obsidimen, no.

Free spirits? Aren't Obsidimen supposed to be free spirits?

Except that Runner's Companion is NOT a core book.

Uhm ...

This core book for Shadowrun, Fourth Edition also introduces Metavariants, Changelings, and the Infected as player character options

Emphasis mine.

My only real complaint I can think of is the aura of mystery around some things, like the drakeforms - I understand no one really knows much about it, but one could have made it a bit more mysterious in detail than just 'we don't know jack'.

Aside from the dragons book already mentioned, the Earthdawn dragons pdf on Ancient's home page also contains info on drake genesis.

And now for my review.

The good
Lifestyles are back. WHEW. I so missed you! Some decent new toys in the lifestyle and survival section. A few questions left open, as always, and I seriously wonder why all those style advantages and disadvantages are gone (I miss terrific view and disgusting neighbourhood), but it's good to have them back regardless.

The new chargen systems are a nice touch too. Especially BecKS adds. Good stuff and, from what I can tell, decently balanced too.

New connection rules add to the fact that SR4 is the first edition with connection rules you actually can work with. Nice system for organisations and online communities, though it took me a bit figuring it out.

Qualities are nice too. Good to have the old stuff back. Not sure about the new ones, SURGE included, but I'll definitly place a bunch of Klobb somewhere in Germany. Most likely Troll Kingdom. I hate Baden anyway.

Metavariants are far better than I had initially feared. According to - thankfully insubstantial rumors - elf metavariants were to be stamped as whores regardless of character. I miss the second new elf someone wrote about, but dryads are back and as playable as ever. The new dwarfs are cute, being little monkeys and all. I bet there'll be seveal harumani physad chars called Roku soon, somewhere.

The bad
The new "character options".

Shifters and Drakes - meh. They seem okay, though innate magic ratings are a bit over powered - but then again, without being mages, they're not feasible at all. Still nothing I would allow, but not truly ridiculous either. The fun starts after their section.

Nonhumans. Either they're barely usable as shadowrunners (naga, centaur) or they're just attention hogs for the entire campaign. I can't see how centaurs or nagas can find acceptance as covert operatives, except maybe for operatkions in Amazonian jungles or Greece. Windlings and Sasquatches - maybe. But they're too very limited - either by being unable to communicate properly or because any deadly would will vanish the PC.

The Infected? Sorry, they're totally unbalanced. Yeah, I know, BP cost and all that. Big fucking deal. Just get the character infected after chargen! Buy an infected of appropriate type as a contact, have your character be a fan of this infected type, and bingo, you save between 35 and 150 BP. Also, don't waste money buying magic in your character, as the infected will get it for free - just buy latent awakening. Use your first karma to push magic a bit. It'll also allow you to act like a damn Mary Sue, whining about how your feats are really curses, and to go on killing sprees, stating your character just hasn't quite adjusted to the new lifestyle. Keeping essence above magic is no problem either, as you can most of the time pass for a normal metahuman with a SURGEling SIN, and can just mug NPCs like there's no tomorrow. Fun!

This stinks. None of the infected characters have any meaningful allergies or weaknesses any more, apart from locking them into a box and throwing away the key, which is GM fiat of the worst kind. This reads a lot like munchkins-r-us.

Free Spirits? Not only do they now gain KArma like PCs do, they also act as a group commander by default. Lucky Free Spirit player! He gets to be all important and degrades all other PCs to stooges by default! And not only that, as soon as someone wants to play a free spirit (and gain Karma), other players HAVE to chain their characters to the spirit till they die by favour of a spirit pact. As an incentive, they gain a second Hand of God. Now that's balanced. I guess spandesx suuits and flight powers are optional.

What about AIs? Oh yeah. Finally, I can play a dungeon, a washing machine, Spider Jerusalem's Maker unit with Beetle addiction or the iRobot robot. And not only that, but I also can have cool super powers that make technomancers seem balanced! Truly great.

Finally, this section begs the question why the majority of these ... things ... should go shadowrunning. But meh. I guess that can be justified given a sufficienty ridiculous background. If it floats your boat, fine. Of all this, only the sprite and the sasquatch MAY be useful - as NPCs in my games, possibly as PCs in others. Otherwise, it's pretty much space wastred that could have been used for more feasible game options.

The ugly
And by ugly, I mean "it hurtses our eyes, precious!" Seriously, CGL should start to do some art directing. The art in RC is significantly worse than n Unwired (which had decent to great art). Not only are the images partly technically sub par, they also just don't fit, style-wise, with one another.

Now, I don't claim to know publishing in the gaming industry, but can't you give art assignments by book, not by chapter? Is it really that expensive? I somehow cannot imagine, snce tiny niche stuff like DeGenesis can pull that off. So what is it with SR4 and art?

Conclusion
Now, RC does contain fun stuff. Connections, Qualities, Metavariants, all decet stuff and useful in converting old characters as well as building fun new ones. Lifestyles are back, and now we all can again buld a cllege dorm living decker nerd whose secondary lifestyle has living with parents, or a bling-bling gangsta orc lifestyle (do elf bitches count as roommates from heaven?).

But apart from Artwork between "heh", "meh" and "ohgodmyeyes", it does waste a significant portion of space on "character options" that any normal group would ban outright, or never allow to develop as it needs to. I kind of don't see the need for these things as PCs, especially AI and Infected. I don't see the need to waste several pages on vampy fluff and evey last MMVV variant playable, even those clearly identified as animal-minded before this book (refers to loup-garou, not wendigos), when sensible stuff like example ratings for example online and group connections and an allergy that is referenced in other parts of the book have to be cut due to space concerns.

That and the Artwork, which REALLY could use more attention on part of the developers so that it at least follows a common line of sorts, really drags down my otherwise pretty decent impression of this book. I'd give it a C-.

[Isath]

though innate magic ratings are a bit over powered

Also, don't waste money buying magic in your character, as the infected will get it for free.

Erm... I do not see how an initial magic rating of 1 would be unbalancing, but would be interested to hear more detail about it. Also every build that makes use of magic (adept, mage, mystic adept) is granted an initial magic rating of 1, so why should it be different with drakes, shifters or the infected. Aside form adding 1 die to the regeneration test the character will only have extensive use for magic if he buys the mage (adept, mystic adept) quality. Also the initial Magic rating of 1 does not add with the one prvided by those qualities. So vampire + mage still leaves you with a magic rating of 1, not 2.

[CanRay]

I have one complaint.

"Famous Free Spirits".

They forgot the most famous of them all, Buttercup!

Of course, she doesn't even need mentioning, does she? Being a CEO of a Mega and all...

[toturi]

I have one complaint.

"Famous Free Spirits".

They forgot the most famous of them all, Buttercup!

Of course, she doesn't even need mentioning, does she? Being a CEO of a Mega and all...

I thought she was just a major shareholder. CEO being an ork...

[CanRay]

I thought she was just a major shareholder. CEO being an ork...

Ah, misremembered. Yes, she's the major shareholder.

Still famous. She was given a bunch of comic books by Dunkie in his will!

[BRodda]

Likes: Lifestyles are back! Now I can actully have extra bolt holes and safe houses. Some of the qualities/disadvantages are just what I was looking for recently. The little story run at the end was great too. Nice artwork of some of the Jackpoint regulars.

Dislikes: I swear to $DIETY if anyone comes to the game I'm looking to start with a Dzoo-Noo-Qua Giant who is Class III SURGEd is getting chucked out the window... (I looked it over in the rules. Yes it looks like you can do this.)

[hermit]

Erm... I do not see how an initial magic rating of 1 would be unbalancing, but would be interested to hear more detail about it. Also every build that makes use of magic (adept, mage, mystic adept) is granted an initial magic rating of 1, so why should it be different with drakes, shifters or the infected. Aside form adding 1 die to the regeneration test the character will only have extensive use for magic if he buys the mage (adept, mystic adept) quality. Also the initial Magic rating of 1 does not add with the one prvided by those qualities. So vampire + mage still leaves you with a magic rating of 1, not 2.

Because you get the magican quality that metahumans and -variants have to buy separatly for free? In case of an infected character who is infected in-game (at no BP cost) for far less than the magican quality? you save 15 BP like that. Buy latent awakening, get infected, awake and thrive. No need to spend KArma on the mage quality for changing quaqlities, either.

[CanRay]

Dislikes: I swear to $DIETY if anyone comes to the game I'm looking to start with a Dzoo-Noo-Qua Giant who is Class III SURGEd is getting chucked out the window... (I looked it over in the rules. Yes it looks like you can do this.)

$DIETY or just whatever God you choose to believe in? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And that's why Characters have to be checked by GMs before they can be played. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

The designers seem have made an astoundingly moronic decision by including karma based character generation - which is very, very, very annoying - and not including a BP based advancement system. Because BP > Karma in every respect and method. Its like they are allergic to simplicity.

[Ancient History]

Free spirits? Aren't Obsidimen supposed to be free spirits?

No. They're closest to flesh form spirits but...different.

Nonhumans/Shapeshifters/Infected/etc. bitchings

A large part of RC was presenting character options. Not all of these options would be kosher at my table unless I knew the player could handle playing them, but they are things that many players wanted, so...there you go.

The Infected? Sorry, they're totally unbalanced. Yeah, I know, BP cost and all that. Big fucking deal. Just get the character infected after chargen!

That was always going to be an issue with a transmissable character type, which is why the Infected were generally relegated to NPC status. You'd probably see the same reaction if any metahuman that had sex with an ork turned into an ork. The door is open to abuse - I'll tell you about the all-nosferatu playtest party sometime - but honestly, I don't see many serious players attempting to work the system. If you want to go through that much effort to be a Special Emo Pretty Butterfly, you're probably playing the wrong game.

None of the infected characters have any meaningful allergies or weaknesses any more

Uh...what? Every one of them has weaknesses. Granted, I didn't clamp down on Logic to represent mental retardation from the transformation, but...

And by ugly, I mean "it hurtses our eyes, precious!" Seriously, CGL should start to do some art directing.

Freelance art is a minefield, that's all I'll say.

[Sir_Psycho]

I can't decide whether getting a writer who hates the infected to write the infected rules was a good thing or a bad thing.

[Cthulhudreams]

Is it just me, or do the free spirit rules suck absolutely in every way? 250 BPs is like.. ouch. Okay you get 100 BPs worth of free qualities, and free always on armour... but... can you actually make a playable character?!?! Plus you have to dump loads of points into magic and you cannot use conjurering which sucks.

I'm guessing stats don't scale with force automatically- the paragraph implies but doesn't state that.

[hermit]

That was always going to be an issue with a transmissable character type, which is why the Infected were generally relegated to NPC status. You'd probably see the same reaction if any metahuman that had sex with an ork turned into an ork. The door is open to abuse - I'll tell you about the all-nosferatu playtest party sometime - but honestly, I don't see many serious players attempting to work the system. If you want to go through that much effort to be a Special Emo Pretty Butterfly, you're probably playing the wrong game.

But why make rules for special emo pretty butterfly characters in the first place, then? Wouldn't, if this is to be largely an NPC section, it be better suited for Running Wild? And no, it's not the serious players I'd worry about here. It's those who might be attracted to SR4 because "finally, it has playable vampires!"

No. They're closest to flesh form spirits but...different.

Like, really? Okay ... always thought they were Earth Elementals spawned in a special way by spellcasting rock.

Uh...what? Every one of them has weaknesses. Granted, I didn't clamp down on Logic to represent mental retardation from the transformation, but...

Since orcs and trolls get that treatment (decreased logic and such), it would've been kinda fair to. A bit, at least. Also, lots of allergies have been scaled down, and all that. The weight on the Infected with allergies and weaknesses seems to have been relieved a lot.

Also, I am missing the Chupacabra and the elf nosferatu. If you include bandersnatches, why not them? Both are reasonably sentient either.

Oh yeah, kudos to whoever wrote the SURGE chapter on the Klobb. One of my more favourite lesser Races from ED.

[Cthulhudreams]

Astral hazing is the best negative quality in the game. Its so good it should pretty much be a positive quality. Holy hell.

Especially when you compare it to arcane arrester!


!!!!

Only thing it screws you for is heals. Go go orge cyber sammies. For that 20 bps of race and 10 BP of neg qualities, you are pretty sweet vs magic. Very sweet.

[Cardul]

Because you get the magican quality that metahumans and -variants have to buy separatly for free? In case of an infected character who is infected in-game (at no BP cost) for far less than the magican quality? you save 15 BP like that. Buy latent awakening, get infected, awake and thrive. No need to spend KArma on the mage quality for changing quaqlities, either.

Um...no, they do not get the Magician Quality for free. They still have to pay for it. And the rules for Latent Awakening would still apply, so that, even though they get Awakened,t hey still have to pay Karma for it. And, honestly, if you would allow that in a game you run(since you are suggesting it, you would obviously allow it), then
perhaps you should remember that most places still have being Infected as ILLEGAL, that is assuming they even have legal rights to begin with. If I had a player who wanted to play a vampire, well...they would be REALLY miserable, what with them being hunted and all...because, well..they STILL have to feed off of Essence. Stop and think about this: they have to, pretty much, kill people, rip PERMANENT bits of people's spirits and life force away just to survive. You really think there is not going to be some people hunting for them? Just because teh mechanics do not automatically make them all "Hunted"? Personally, I have a player attempt that, you know what is happening? Hung Out to Dry, Hunted, AND, of course, all that nice cyverware they got gets ejected from them as their body heals..and that is just off the top of my head. You get Infected, what little time remains of your shadowrrunning career will not be pleasant in the least...

[Cthulhudreams]

Its a game in which you play hired criminals who have huge numbers of guns and explosives and commit crimes on a regular basis

'Killing people' 'being hunted' and 'being illegal' are pretty much par for the course. Most of my characters are committing multiple felonies when they go to the pub.

[hermit]

Um...no, they do not get the Magician Quality for free. They still have to pay for it. And the rules for Latent Awakening would still apply, so that, even though they get Awakened,t hey still have to pay Karma for it. And, honestly, if you would allow that in a game you run(since you are suggesting it, you would obviously allow it), then perhaps you should remember that most places still have being Infected as ILLEGAL, that is assuming they even have legal rights to begin with.

Read the book? They have full civil rights now in all parts of the civilised world. I didn't make that up. I forgot to add it to my rant though, admittedly.

If I had a player who wanted to play a vampire, well...they would be REALLY miserable, what with them being hunted and all...because, well..they STILL have to feed off of Essence. Stop and think about this: they have to, pretty much, kill people, rip PERMANENT bits of people's spirits and life force away just to survive. You really think there is not going to be some people hunting for them? Just because teh mechanics do not automatically make them all "Hunted"? Personally, I have a player attempt that, you know what is happening? Hung Out to Dry, Hunted, AND, of course, all that nice cyverware they got gets ejected from them as their body heals..and that is just off the top of my head. You get Infected, what little time remains of your shadowrrunning career will not be pleasant in the least...

I'm thinking inside the rules here. In a game I run, infected characters would not be allowed at all. Still, a ruling on whether the Infected quality counts for a character's notoriety would be nice. A vamp who has notoriety of 20 on default, or a wendigo who gets at least 7, will just not be hired. The player can then feel ignored while the run is played. Maybe it'll tell them something.

Would also nicely explain your "hung out to dry" spree.

For the record, I am with you there. I just try and see this stuff as a special emo pretty butterfly player propably would.

Most of my characters are committing multiple felonies when they go to the pub.

Like how? Compulsion (Must Kill Humans), Severe Addiction (Child rape) and Dark Secret (war criminal on the run)? Huh? Please elaborate.

Also, kill-happy characters have short lives too, in consequently played games.

[FlashbackJon]

I would assume he's simply exaggerating, but he could be referring to massively restricted gear and 'ware without a license. Or worse, with a fake license. Y'know, normal illegal runner stuff.

[hermit]

Uhm ... where exactly does my character possessing cracked software in startling quantites kill people by default? Yeah, he propably is. Still, that doesn't mean he kills people by default like the infected do.

[Cthulhudreams]

Killing is standard shadowrunner behaviour. Think of the standard 'quick start' adventure. What do you do? Gun down some thugs. First adventure in shadowrun missions? Fraud, theft, murder, extortion, racketeering, trespass, break and entire, causing an affray, disorderly conduct, jaywalking, assault, assault and battery, aggravated assault, DMCA infringement, copyright infringement. Yeah. There are a bunch of property offenceses you commit too, and you may actually also impersonate a police officer 0 assuming hired security guards can be guys from lone Star and thus real police. You're a criminal. Get with the program.

Anyway, yeah, the pub was a joke about the illegal shite your character has and doesn't have licenses for. My last chracter, as an arbitary example was commiting the following offenses when picking his nose at the bar with a beer in hand:

Casting of unlicensed combat spells
possession of illegal weapons (LMG on drone in car)
possession of illegal weapon accessories (silencer)
possession of restricted weapons (Assault rifle and SMG) without a permit
possession of restricted equipment (foci) without a permit
possession of restricted equipment (ECM jammer) without a permit
possession of restricted cyberware without a permit
possession of illegal cyberware without authorization as a federal employee.
possession of illegal narcotics
Fraud (Fake licenses)
Fraud (Fake identity)
DMCA infringements
Copyright infringements
Several other computer crimes -for example my agent is spoofing my lifestyle, so I'm commiting fraud, some sort of hacking offense on the bank and the pub, and possibly some sort of anti botnet legisalation if my agent touches more than 10 computers while going about its business.

And thats just what occurs to me off the top of my head - in australia the firearms possession offenses alone could get you more than 14 years in the big house.

[Oenone]

Actually the Karma system works quite nicely for making a technomancer with it. You actually end up with enough points to spend on some stats and non-matrix skills, rounded selection of background skills and a bit of gear.

The new character options are interesting, admittedly that's mainly because I like using the BP system to stat up major NPC/Villians and the RC lets me make up suitably potent Prime Runners without having to convert the creatures from the BBB or just make it up from scratch.

The cover art is nice, even if some of the internal art isn't as good. But then to be honest I wasn't really paying much attention to the pictures.

Oh and the foreshadowing for Ghost Cartels in the stories at the back has me a lot more interested in the book than I previously was. I might even drop it into the game I'm running if the game is still going by the time it's out.

The downsides for me mainly are the priority system, but that's largely because it gives me less fine control for chargen. But then again it's only a few pages and it's always good to have more options as not everyone will enjoy the BP or Karma systems. So even though I personally dislike it I suspect I'd have to recommend it to anyone really new to the system.

[hermit]

Killing is standard shadowrunner behaviour. Think of the standard 'quick start' adventure. What do you do? Gun down some thugs.

Still, gunning down everyone isn't standard shadowrunner behavior, as much as it's not for mercenaries (well, excluding those operating in Iraq, apparently).

First adventure in shadowrun missions? Fraud, theft, murder, extortion, racketeering, trespass, break and entire, causing an affray, disorderly conduct, jaywalking, assault, assault and battery, aggravated assault, DMCA infringement, copyright infringement. Yeah. There are a bunch of property offenceses you commit too, and you may actually also impersonate a police officer 0 assuming hired security guards can be guys from lone Star and thus real police. You're a criminal. Get with the program.

I admit I have no idea what the first missions mission is about, but is killing someone mandatory there? If not, tranqing works about as well (or sleepcasting, which works even better). RC actually recommends that.

Yeah, runners are criminals. But criminals aren't all alike. And there is quite a difference between break-in artists who usually don't kill people and mass murderers who kill for food and eat souls.

Anyway, yeah, the pub was a joke about the illegal shite your character has and doesn't have licenses for. My last chracter, as an arbitary example was commiting the following offenses when picking his nose at the bar with a beer in hand:

Casting of unlicensed combat spells
possession of illegal weapons (LMG on drone in car)
possession of illegal weapon accessories (silencer)
possession of restricted weapons (Assault rifle and SMG) without a permit
possession of restricted equipment (foci) without a permit
possession of restricted equipment (ECM jammer) without a permit
possession of restricted cyberware without a permit
possession of illegal cyberware without authorization as a federal employee.
possession of illegal narcotics
Fraud (Fake licenses)
Fraud (Fake identity)
DMCA infringements
Copyright infringements
Several other computer crimes -for example my agent is spoofing my lifestyle, so I'm commiting fraud, some sort of hacking offense on the bank and the pub, and possibly some sort of anti botnet legisalation if my agent touches more than 10 computers while going about its business.

Committed under the same juristiction? If so, your own fault if that gets you arrested. Also, taking your LMG drone with you to your favourite pub seems a little ... odd ... to me, like waving a huge banner saying "kick me please", provided the pub is in a C zone or better. Propably, your game is a lot different from mine.

And thats just what occurs to me off the top of my head - in australia the firearms possession offenses alone could get you more than 14 years in the big house.

Isn't the right to arm yourself for self defense still in effect in the UCAS? I would leave the AR and LMG drone at home and insetad take a Pred, a taser and a drone mounting a hunting rifle - guns that you can more or less legally own.

The SINs shouldn't be too much of a problem. And I'd scrap the lifestyle spoofing and use the advanced lifestyle rules anyway.

Actually the Karma system works quite nicely for making a technomancer with it. You actually end up with enough points to spend on some stats and non-matrix skills, rounded selection of background skills and a bit of gear.

Yeah, thoughtb so too. One further step in making mundanes futile, I guess. Good for thchnoplayers who want to play Neo from scratch, though.

[Ancient History]

But why make rules for special emo pretty butterfly characters in the first place, then? Wouldn't, if this is to be largely an NPC section, it be better suited for Running Wild?

You misunderstood me; the Infected have in the past been mainly relegated to NPC status because of the transmission issue.

Like, really? Okay ... always thought they were Earth Elementals spawned in a special way by spellcasting rock.

It's complicated.

Also, I am missing the Chupacabra and the elf nosferatu. If you include bandersnatches, why not them? Both are reasonably sentient either.

The goat-sucker is a weird, bipedal lizard - not sapient. There was only one elven nosferatu, and he ate pretty much everybody else in the world that would qualify to become an elf nosferatu.

[hermit]

The goat-sucker is a weird, bipedal lizard - not sapient. There was only one elven nosferatu, and he ate pretty much everybody else in the world that would qualify to become an elf nosferatu.

So? There are only 35.000 sasquatches worldwide, that number cannot support more than a few hundred bandersnatches, and they got rules ...

And wasn't the goat sucher a weird bipedal sentient lizard alien? Or am I misremembering cyberpirates?

You misunderstood me; the Infected have in the past been mainly relegated to NPC status because of the transmission issue.

Ehm ... now you lost me ... ghouls were playable, and hat that transmission problem ... so ...?

It's complicated.

Has it been explained anywhere yet?

[Ancient History]

And wasn't the goat sucher a weird bipedal sentient lizard alien? Or am I misremembering cyberpirates?

Misremembering and putting too much faith in shadowtalker comments.

Ehm ... now you lost me ... ghouls were playable, and hat that transmission problem ... so ...?

I did say "mostly." Frankly, I never ran into the problem with all-ghoul parties, but I think that's because ghouls tended to suck.

Has it been explained anywhere yet?

A little bit, yeah. Earthdawn's Denizens of Barsaive, Vol. II. See, obsidimen are part weird earth spirit, but they also have actual flesh and a discernable anatomy approximate to most other Namegivers. Like I said, the closest SR parallel is a flesh form earth spirit, but that's not quite accurate in all respects.

[Rasumichin]

- I'll tell you about the all-nosferatu playtest party sometime -

Now i'm curious.

[Ruke]

So, in the Karma Point build system, races cost nothing, but give you the ability to have higher max stats? So, a nosferatu troll would just be awesome and stomp everyone into the ground? (not that a sane GM would allow that)

[Ancient History]

So, in the Karma Point build system, races cost nothing, but give you the ability to have higher max stats? So, a nosferatu troll would just be awesome and stomp everyone into the ground? (not that a sane GM would allow that)

No' quite, for two reasons. 1) Trolls cannot become nosferatu. 2) Nosferatu are a quality, not a standard racial option. Becoming a nosferatu would cost 300 Karma in Karma-based chargen.

[HappyDaze]

Note that Free Spirit is NOT a Quality but is a 'metatype' substitute. This means that in the Karma-system, they make out like bandits.

[hermit]

Misremembering and putting too much faith in shadowtalker comments.

Kay. Too bad though. It would have made for a nice FBI campaign.

I did say "mostly." Frankly, I never ran into the problem with all-ghoul parties, but I think that's because ghouls tended to suck.

They tended to be shot, to be precise. Vampires, on the other hand ...

A little bit, yeah. Earthdawn's Denizens of Barsaive, Vol. II. See, obsidimen are part weird earth spirit, but they also have actual flesh and a discernable anatomy approximate to most other Namegivers. Like I said, the closest SR parallel is a flesh form earth spirit, but that's not quite accurate in all respects.

Thanks. I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy.

[Aaron]

I have one complaint.
"Famous Free Spirits".
They forgot the most famous of them all, Buttercup!
Of course, she doesn't even need mentioning, does she? Being a CEO of a Mega and all...

I can't speak for the decisions of the editing staff, but I have it on good authority that the original writer was trying to introduce new famous free spirits, rather than rehash old ones. Whether or not that was the Right Thing to Do, that was the way it was done.

[Synner]

Characters like Buttercup bring a huge amount of lugage, and the short profile we provided for each of the various races would not have done her/it justice-which is why I fully back the author's decision to go with something new. Inclusion of Pulsar was a late addition and reflects continuity with recent plotlines. And I was on the fence about including Milo Czerda, but he's obscure enough that I added him because he showcases two important points about centaurs.

[Cthulhudreams]

I admit I have no idea what the first missions mission is about, but is killing someone mandatory there? If not, tranqing works about as well (or sleepcasting, which works even better). RC actually recommends that.

Maybe not, but there are several incidents in which you probably are going to have to.

Committed under the same juristiction? If so, your own fault if that gets you arrested. Also, taking your LMG drone with you to your favourite pub seems a little ... odd ... to me, like waving a huge banner saying "kick me please", provided the pub is in a C zone or better. Probably, your game is a lot different from mine.

You know its still illegal to have them if they are in your house? Its not like I'm walking down the street with it. Its all carefully concealed and I'll get away with it. But that doesn't make it not illegal.

Isn't the right to arm yourself for self defense still in effect in the UCAS? I would leave the AR and LMG drone at home and insetad take a Pred, a taser and a drone mounting a hunting rifle - guns that you can more or less legally own.

Sure, but loads of runners have guns with the R or F next to them, so they have actually illegal ones.

[Wanderer]

There was only one elven nosferatu, and he ate pretty much everybody else in the world that would qualify to become an elf nosferatu.

Could someone please explain the backstory about this to me ? I'm insanely curious. I'm vaguely aware this is told in an old FASA novel. From your nifty site, I gather there was one elven nosferatu in the 1800s (he must have been quite unique: elven spike baby, genetic carrier of the nosferatu strain, and having the right genes for becoming an elven nosferatu). I understand he was pretty unique back then, but how/why he wiped out all the other carriers of the "elven nosferatu" genes ? Insanity giving him a taste for the blood and Essence of his blood kin ?

[Ancient History]

[/edit]Come to think of it, I shall instead to refer to Mason's Annotated Review of the novel, which is much better than my nanosecond summary.

Heh. Now what y'all are really missing out on is the spectral wendigo playtest. That was killer, as in TPK.

[Wanderer]

[/edit]Come to think of it, I shall instead to refer to Mason's Annotated Review of the novel, which is much better than my nanosecond summary.

So he had a quirky dietary requirement that forced him to feed on just those persons that shared the same genetic complex that would allow one to become an elven nosferatu, hadn't he ??? Aww, man, that sucks (pun intended).

There goes my hopes of playing the most elitist of the metatypes, Infected into the most elitist of the strains (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[DV8]

And another plug for my website! Thank you, thank you, I'll be preforming here all week. Please, try the roast, and don't forget to tip your waiters.

[hermit]

You know its still illegal to have them if they are in your house? Its not like I'm walking down the street with it. Its all carefully concealed and I'll get away with it. But that doesn't make it not illegal.

I'm still relating that to the 'going to the pub' part.

Sure, but loads of runners have guns with the R or F next to them, so they have actually illegal ones.

Sure, but don't carry them unless they can get away with it.

Great web site, on a side note. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

I guess I am saying that 'getting away with' and 'committing' one is merely a subset of the other. Maybe the vampire just murders street bums in the barrens. Not like it would be hard. Who would notice?

[Sir_Psycho]

I love the first sections about how to run correctly. It's something that all dumpshockers know, but I'm currently introducing a group of about 6 to shadowrun, and less than half have played pen and paper rpgs before. I am making those sections of runner's companion compulsory reading.

Although, I was reading through, and was pretty happy with the art; nice cover (was it the same guy who did the Shadowrun Companion?), some good stuff to start off with and then I hit the metavariants. Honestly, the "my eyes!" description was not an exagguration. It dissapointed me because the metavariant artwork in SR3's companion was pretty nice and solid, and you guys already re-used a bunch of artwork in Arsenal, I don't know why you didn't do it here.

[Cardul]

Killing is standard shadowrunner behaviour.

I am so glad me and the other players in the NeoTokyo game I am in are not standard Shadowrunners. I liked when one of our guys went and stabilized the security mages who almost died from Overcasting some major stun balls. And stabilized the guys driving the truck when they freed some of the other runners who were about to be shipped off to Berlin for, as my GM put it, "Vivisec-er...interrogation."

[hermit]

One thing I previously overlooked: The nocturnal negative SURGE.

What the hell? -1 on all mental attributes during day? Like why? Because they like to stay up at night rather than day? Are all other races' mentals reduced by one at night? Hunh? Or do Nocturnals have some unique feature that makes them require more sleep than average people? Can't they get used to the irregular sleeping patterns all runners follow for some mysterious reasion? What if they get themselves a sleep regulator?

The book appears more and more to have been a little ... rushed.

[Isath]

Maybe their biorythm is not as adaptable as others. Couldn't it be that being nocturnal means being more strictly so?

[Malicant]

One thing I previously overlooked: The nocturnal negative SURGE.

What the hell? -1 on all mental attributes during day? Like why?[...]

Is this guy like for real? Dude: magic.

[Stahlseele]

i can actually relate to that . . or as i put it once during a gaming weekend when being woken up before afternoon:"i can't brain yet, i have the dumb"
i am pretty much nocturnal, i like to sleep for a long time and i like to get up late . . basically, with societys rules for work and most everything else, i'm pretty much thoroughly shafted . . and i do tend to be more alert at night times too . .
as for runners companion: now i wanna build a centaur-cyberzombie with 6 arms . . 4 raptor-legs with skimmer-discs, cyber-torso, 6 cyber-arms, cyber-skull made to look like a horse-head . . i'm gonna call him . . binky O.o
on that note, can one have unbalanced arms?
as in one left arm and 3 right arms?
and what about bio-muslce-stuff for additional limbs?
maybe not for centaurs and other things, but metahumans who surged into having 4 or 6 arms?
and what about cyber-replacement?
with more limbs one could actually gain something from an averaged stat if all of those limbs are cybered up to nowhere . .
or imagine the 6 armed 4 legged cyber-zombie centaur up there fully armored . . in the taking damage compartment, that one probably could duke it out with a main battle tank O.o

[hermit]

What Shadowrunner has an ordinary sleep cycle? Sorry, this doesn't fly. Also, stahl, by default, you are not nocturnal. You seem to have reversed your biorythm with training - which I see no reason as to why NOs shouldn't be able to do.

[Stahlseele]

no, i did not . .
allways been like that, since i've been a little boy . .
sadly never changed over time, i suffered the whole time i went to school and the such . .
now i do tech support with work not starting before 14:00, so i am now a little bit more happy

[hermit]

Mutant!!

Did you happen to go to this school, by chance? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

i have the diploma to be exact . . i will upload a scanned image some day . .
and yes, i am a bit on the mutant side . . allmost perfect night-vision, light sun allergy, eyes changing colour from time to time . . going berserk due to heritage from a viking tribe with some berserkers in it . . close to perfect immune system . . gremlins . . yes, i'm a powergamer built it seems *snickers*

[Synner]

The Nocturnal quality does not equal a "night owl" or someone who has a preference for a noctunal lifestyle. The Nocturnal quality specifically refers to some innate physiological or psychosomatic limitation, that makes the character/person feel lethargic, slow-witted, unattentive and unresponsive during the daylight hours. Someone like Stahseele above, or one of the numerous animal species that have noctural (or in some cases seasonal) biorhythms.

[CanRay]

Characters like Buttercup bring a huge amount of lugage, and the short profile we provided for each of the various races would not have done her/it justice-which is why I fully back the author's decision to go with something new. Inclusion of Pulsar was a late addition and reflects continuity with recent plotlines. And I was on the fence about including Milo Czerda, but he's obscure enough that I added him because he showcases two important points about centaurs.

OK, that's more than fair enough. We'll probably see the full write-up on her when you do the "MegaCorporations of the 2070s" book or something, eh?

At the very least, what she's been currently up to, other than collecting Manga and slowly working her way through Dunkie's Comics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Malicant]

The Nocturnal quality does not equal a "night owl" or someone who has a preference for a noctunal lifestyle. The Nocturnal quality specifically refers to some innate physiological or psychosomatic limitation, that makes the character/person feel lethargic, slow-witted, unattentive and unresponsive during the daylight hours. Someone like Stahseele above, or one of the numerous animal species that have noctural (or in some cases seasonal) biorhythms.

Those are very valid arguments. Now I'm really anxious to see how they will be disregarded. I hope they won't be simply ignored, that would be lame. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Sir_Psycho]

Haven't you heard? She's dropped the manga and moved onto Tolstoy. She's also had a certain european dragon with a penchant for underwater shenanigans burn her a few Rachmaninov symphonies. I for one approve of her becoming a bit more eclectic.

[Cardul]

The Nocturnal quality does not equal a "night owl" or someone who has a preference for a noctunal lifestyle. The Nocturnal quality specifically refers to some innate physiological or psychosomatic limitation, that makes the character/person feel lethargic, slow-witted, unattentive and unresponsive during the daylight hours. Someone like Stahseele above, or one of the numerous animal species that have noctural (or in some cases seasonal) biorhythms.

Proof people really do not understand those who are mostly nocturnal. Thank you sinner for putting it so eloquently.
I know that I get more awke and function better at night, but, when the sun starts coming up, my brains tarts getting fuzzy, and those simple things most people take for granted(like, thinking on my feet) become less and less possible.

And this has always been the case..I really do NOT function well during the day, ever. I have always found it more natural to sleep during the day, and be awake all night. Allt hose freaks who are diurnal need to quit thinking that beign nocturnal is a choice! Heck! Sunlight gets me depressed, while night time makes me not!(Yes, that is right, I suffer Seasonal Affective Disorder in the Spring and summer, when the days are getting longer, instead of like most people do in fall and winter)

[hermit]

Still begs the question why people who prefer daylight activity aren't slapped with the same modifiers.

[Bobson]

No' quite, for two reasons. 1) Trolls cannot become nosferatu. 2) Nosferatu are a quality, not a standard racial option. Becoming a nosferatu would cost 300 Karma in Karma-based chargen.

Scratch the nosferatu bit, and the point still seems to be valid. Being a troll lets you spend more points on your attributes than being a human does, on top of the higher starting values...

[Stahlseele]

Still begs the question why people who prefer daylight activity aren't slapped with the same modifiers.

oh but don't they?
most people i know ain't all that bright at night compared to daylight time . .
and they REALLY don't see good at night either . . i don't even switch on lights in my flat when it gets dark, i can see just fine, and if i have visitors they don't even see me coming from time to time . .
oh, you mean shadowrun rules wise . . my bad . . not at the top of my game at the moment <.<

[hermit]

oh but don't they?

Do ordinary characters get -1 on all mental stats during nighttime? If so, please show me a quote and correct citation ...

In IRL terms, I seem to be fairly flexible. I don't have jetlag either, I just accept the new local daylight cycle. Guess that's my special mutant power. Go me.

[Starmage21]

Proof people really do not understand those who are mostly nocturnal. Thank you sinner for putting it so eloquently.
I know that I get more awke and function better at night, but, when the sun starts coming up, my brains tarts getting fuzzy, and those simple things most people take for granted(like, thinking on my feet) become less and less possible.

And this has always been the case..I really do NOT function well during the day, ever. I have always found it more natural to sleep during the day, and be awake all night. Allt hose freaks who are diurnal need to quit thinking that beign nocturnal is a choice! Heck! Sunlight gets me depressed, while night time makes me not!(Yes, that is right, I suffer Seasonal Affective Disorder in the Spring and summer, when the days are getting longer, instead of like most people do in fall and winter)

I believe this all falls under psychosomatic effects.

[Stahlseele]

Do ordinary characters get -1 on all mental stats during nighttime? If so, please show me a quote and correct citation ...

In IRL terms, I seem to be fairly flexible. I don't have jetlag either, I just accept the new local daylight cycle. Guess that's my special mutant power. Go me.

yes, yes, i ninja-edited in that i misunderstood you ^^

[hermit]

I believe this all falls under psychosomatic effects.

So it can be bought off by behaviour therapy or something? oô But is magogenetically determined?

[Sir_Psycho]

And the behaviour therapy would be represented by the karma buying off the flaw.

It's basically a genetically based phobia.

Also,

Guess that's my special mutant power. Go me.

Die, surgeling freak!

[Stahlseele]

hey, leave the little one in peace, i am much more stranger than him *snickers*

[hermit]

And the behaviour therapy would be represented by the karma buying off the flaw.

It's basically a genetically based phobia.

You can buy off race-related disadvantages? For real?!

And thanks Stahl. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

How about the Pixie's Race-Based Disadvantage of being ~45 cm?

'Cause one of my players just made one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[martindv]

For what its worth, Catalyst considers Runner's Companion a core rulebook (same as Street Magic, Augmentation, Arsenal and Unwired). Though many of the character options and rules are optional, many are not.

Makes sense. A group may not want to use some types, like sapient critters, but it's hard to pretend they don't exist entirely when they make up part of the fictional universe.

The goat-sucker is a weird, bipedal lizard - not sapient.

Damn. For real? I mean, is that the official position?

Anyway, one of the things that bugged me was the organization contacts. It's neat, and the general info was useful. But it would have been useful to have some info on the similar/related groups as well, especially when you consider how very different the Atlantean Foundation and, say, Apep are in style, tone and apparent goals are.


Oh, speaking of DF trustees. Grace. That character sounds familiar.

[Stahlseele]

How about the Pixie's Race-Based Disadvantage of being ~45 cm?

'Cause one of my players just made one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

try and find ANYTHING in that size . . cyber, bio, weapons, clothing, armour, tools, vehicles . . damn, the whole fairy would fit into a CCU or into certain drones to commandeer them O.o
and if you happen upon a fight inside a room where you can't just fly up out of reach? a troll could put you into his pocket for fucks sake x.x . .
there's heavy pistols that are larger than 45cm . .

[Ancient History]

Damn. For real? I mean, is that the official position?

No, that's just my position. Officialdom has not ruled either way. Of course, officialdom has also not ruled either way on the sapience of cockroaches or the existence of "toy" paracanine breeds either.

Oh, speaking of DF trustees. Grace. That character sounds familiar.

Do tell.

[Coldan]

Question about the Karma generation system:

Is it right, that the characters will start with their natural minimum attribute without any costs? You don't pay for your metatyp, but you still get the advantages for free? Ok, you will pay more Karma for incresing the attributes, but if I think about a troll, who will get 82 Karma for free for his Strength 5 and Body 5 at the beginning of the generation.

[Stahlseele]

seems like it.
as far as i understood, this karma system is using the same system to build the character as is used to improve the character . .
so technically while in creation the karma-system works as if you had built a character using build-points without improving ANYTHING and then takes the (un)finished character to proceed to improve him with karma untill he's actually done for game-play . .

[Ancient History]

Got it in one. Humans have a slight advantage in KarmaGen as they can get higher attributes while spending less points than metahumans, which is part of the reason the cost for race is waived. The real slam-dunker is skills, though.

[CanRay]

and if you happen upon a fight inside a room where you can't just fly up out of reach? a troll could put you into his pocket for fucks sake x.x . .

Ironically enough, there was an old joke in a previous group I was in about "If you can fit into someone's pocket, you can also fit into their mouth."

[Stahlseele]

"for you're crunchy and taste good with ketchup!" not only for dragons anymore!

[CanRay]

"What wine goes with Pixie?"

"They're magically delicious!"

"Betcha can't eat just one!"

"Shortpig, not just for ghouls anymore!"

[Tycho]

Got it in one. Humans have a slight advantage in KarmaGen as they can get higher attributes while spending less points than metahumans, which is part of the reason the cost for race is waived. The real slam-dunker is skills, though.

but that is a rough comparison, because the Human has to pay more, to get to the same level as the troll...

moreover, the Troll gets improvements like +1Reach, +1Armor, Thermo Vision, which are worth some BP/Karma...

cya
Tycho