Question On Bows, And The Firing Rates Thereof Options

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Is firing a bow a simple action? (I'm assuming it is.)

If so, would taking Krav Magah for "Ready Weapon becomes a free action" let me fire it twice per round?

[jago668]

I think it works out to 3 per 2.

First round you free action ready weapon, simple action fire, simple action ready weapon. Second round/pass. You start out with it readied, so simple action fire, free action ready weapon, simple action fire. Then the cycle repeats.

[kzt]

It's already silly fast by the rules. Like 30 arrows a minute if you only have one IP.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

You only get one free action per pass.

[Jaid]

You only get one free action per pass.

that's why the three shots per two turns.

on one round, you're starting with it loaded (action spent previously, but not now) then you shoot (simple action) ready weapon (your free action for the turn) then you shoot again (simple action). that's 2 simple actions and a free action, totally allowed. on every other turn, you start with a ready weapon (free action) then you shoot (simple action) then you ready action (if you had a free, it would be free, but since you don't it's costing you a simple action).

you're going to either start the turn with a bow readied with an arrow, or not. whichever you start with, the next turn (assuming you fire continually at your fastest rate) will be opposite. either way, over the long haul you're looking at 3 shots fired every 2 turns (or initiative passes, or whatever).

[DamienKnight]

A character does not have one free action per pass, but one free action per initiative number.

This means that a character going on a 12 has 12 free actions. For example, saying one word is a free action, so a character going on a 12 could begin speaking on 12, and continue speaking until 1, saying 12 words.

With that thought in mind, characters can perform more than one free action between their two simple actions, the result simply being a delays second simple action.

For example, if a character was counting off his shots as he made them, the act of speaking would not preclude him being able to make two shots per turn. Again if he went on a 12 and was using an Ares Predator (Simple Action to shoot) he could point at his first target, and while shooting say 'One'. He could then shoot another target, but not say two unless he waits until 11 in order to have another free action available. The idea being, if he took both shots on a 12, the shots ring out before he finishes saying the word 'one'. If he says 'one' on 12 and shoots target one, then waits for 11 and says 'two' on 11 and shoots target two, he is able to count off his shots without taking less shots.

With that in mind, the same could go if he were loading a weapon with a free action. He could load his weapon on a 12 and use a simple action to shoot it. Then on an 11 he could load it again with another free action, and then shoot it. Two shots per turn, the second shot happening slightly later than the first.

[AngelisStorm]

Damien, could you quote some rules, because I have no idea what your talking about.

[Tarantula]

A character does not have one free action per pass, but one free action per initiative number.

This means that a character going on a 12 has 12 free actions. For example, saying one word is a free action, so a character going on a 12 could begin speaking on 12, and continue speaking until 1, saying 12 words.

With that thought in mind, characters can perform more than one free action between their two simple actions, the result simply being a delays second simple action.

For example, if a character was counting off his shots as he made them, the act of speaking would not preclude him being able to make two shots per turn. Again if he went on a 12 and was using an Ares Predator (Simple Action to shoot) he could point at his first target, and while shooting say 'One'. He could then shoot another target, but not say two unless he waits until 11 in order to have another free action available. The idea being, if he took both shots on a 12, the shots ring out before he finishes saying the word 'one'. If he says 'one' on 12 and shoots target one, then waits for 11 and says 'two' on 11 and shoots target two, he is able to count off his shots without taking less shots.

With that in mind, the same could go if he were loading a weapon with a free action. He could load his weapon on a 12 and use a simple action to shoot it. Then on an 11 he could load it again with another free action, and then shoot it. Two shots per turn, the second shot happening slightly later than the first.

You're wrong.
SR4, 135, "A character can take either two Simple Actions or one Complex Action during his Action Phase. In addition, each character may take one Free Action at any point in the Initiative Pass (either during his own Action Phase or at any later time).

...

FREE ACTIONS
Free Actions are relatively simple, nearly automatic actions that require little or no effort to accomplish. Examples are saying a word, dropping an object, dropping prone, or walking. A character may take a Free Action during his own Action Phase or at some later point in the Initiative Pass. A character may not take a Free Action prior to his first Action Phase in the Initiative Pass."

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that one, man. It looks like 3-2.

[hobgoblin]

i guess no more "talking is a free action" then...

[tsuyoshikentsu]

"Talking takes no action." Easy enough.

[hobgoblin]

memo to self, re-read the BBB, and not just skim it for new rules...

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Oh, I just made that up as a potential solution.

[hobgoblin]

heh, that probably how it ends up being played anyways but iirc, speaking is under free action...

and with the lesser number of free actions in SR4 vs earlier games, ouch!

[jago668]

Last game I played in, we had unlimited free actions. Course the GMs played pretty fast and loose anyways, so it didn't really stand out. Provided you have responsible players it doesn't affect combat that much. Trolls with 19 strength cyberlimbs, redlining them for some retarded huge bow shots don't count as responsible players.

[Aaron]

Er ... when did Ready Weapon become a Free Action?

[hobgoblin]

Er ... when did Ready Weapon become a Free Action?

arsenal, martial arts, krav maga, most likely...

[hobgoblin]

Last game I played in, we had unlimited free actions. Course the GMs played pretty fast and loose anyways, so it didn't really stand out. Provided you have responsible players it doesn't affect combat that much. Trolls with 19 strength cyberlimbs, redlining them for some retarded huge bow shots don't count as responsible players.

just watch out for those that want to call shot every time they attack...

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Last game I played in, we had unlimited free actions. Course the GMs played pretty fast and loose anyways, so it didn't really stand out. Provided you have responsible players it doesn't affect combat that much. Trolls with 19 strength cyberlimbs, redlining them for some retarded huge bow shots don't count as responsible players.

Why not? They'll be taking a good amount of Stun from that, considering a bow's a two-handed weapon.

[Tarantula]

You get a whole phrase/short text for a free, not just one word.

SR4, 136, "Speak/Text Phrase
Speaking one phrase or sentence of verbal communication is a Free Action. If the character wants to speak more, each additional phrase/sentence requires a Free Action. The gamemaster should be careful to control excessive, unrealistic conversations within the span of a Combat Turn (about 3 seconds.) Some gamemasters and players may, however, prefer elaborate communication.
Characters who are equipped to send text messages through a neural connection with their commlink may also send short messages as a Free Action."

[hobgoblin]

indeed, i checked up on it after making a ass of myself...

[jago668]

Why not? They'll be taking a good amount of Stun from that, considering a bow's a two-handed weapon.

No I was pointing out that someone making a build specifically to take advantage of unlimited free actions isn't really a responsible player that you would want in a fast and loose game. Or at least I wouldn't. I can very easily handle powergaming characters since the group I played with forever, well we are all that way. So I don't have a problem with the concept, or implementation. Just saying you usually don't see someone making them for interesting roleplaying possibilities.

[Icephisherman]

Funny how gameplay mechanics work. As far as I remember, Krav Maga has nothing to do with bow and arrows.

[hobgoblin]

yep, as long as they come out and errata in something like (for firearms) after the "becomes a free action", this way of using it will be valid, if potentially unorthodox.

but then bows are already a strange thing in SR. in all versions i know of, a augmented troll with a bow have the firepower of a man portable rail gun. the basic effect of not putting some kind of hard cap on the tension the basic idea of a bow can handle.

but then the romans basically used a very large crossbow as a kind of pre-gunpowder cannon.

so if scientist and engineers can come up with materials and designs that can make a troll-portable (i highly doubt that it will be man-portable) bow able to withstand those kinds of forces, the basic idea could work.

[DamienKnight]

I guess the question here is, how many free actions can a player take. It says they can take a free action on or after their turn. Exclusivity is not implied. Perhaps someone more official could shed some light on this.

My group falls back on realism when the rules are not clear. We have decided that a free action can be taken once on every initiative number throughout combat. Here is why:

Dropping a weapon is a free action, as is ejecting a clip and dropping prone. Imagine this:

Your super fast character takes his first action and finishes off his clip, unloading it into some gangers. He then takes a free action on his turn to eject the clip via his smartlink.

Later on the gangers turn, he is attacked in melee. He decides to drop his gun and use unarmed combat. During their actions, he is able to parry and block their attacks.

Near the end of the round a fellow runner pulls out a machine gun and levels it at the group. Seeing the danger, our character decides to drop prone to avoid being a target.

Allowing only one free action per initiative pass would allow him to only eject the clip. He could block the attacks by swinging his arms, but losing up his grip enough to drop the guns is too much action for him to take. He can run several steps throughout the round, but relaxing his legs and falling to the ground is much too complicated.

Clearly the rules intend for players to take more than one free action. How can you be allowed to parry, dodge, and maintain movement when it is not your turn, but you cant issue simple mental commands to your cyberware or let go of a weapon. That is just rediculous.

But infinite free actions does not make sense. With Krav maga and infinite free actions, a player could draw and drop a thousand paper clips in less than a second. Equally rediculous. The only result that can be logically concluded is that the rules intend is that a player can take more than one free action per round, and that should not be limitless. A natural solution to this is to allow one Free Action per initiative number.

As for rules references, please see:

SR CORE BOOK pages 137 (readying a weapon and free actions), p 306 (shooting a bow), Street Magic p.179 (quick draw) and Arsenal p. 157 (Krav Maga)