Is firing a bow a simple action? (I'm assuming it is.)

If so, would taking Krav Magah for "Ready Weapon becomes a free action" let me fire it twice per round?

I think it works out to 3 per 2.

First round you free action ready weapon, simple action fire, simple action ready weapon. Second round/pass. You start out with it readied, so simple action fire, free action ready weapon, simple action fire. Then the cycle repeats.

It's already silly fast by the rules. Like 30 arrows a minute if you only have one IP.

You only get one free action per pass.

that's why the three shots per two turns.

on one round, you're starting with it loaded (action spent previously, but not now) then you shoot (simple action) ready weapon (your free action for the turn) then you shoot again (simple action). that's 2 simple actions and a free action, totally allowed. on every other turn, you start with a ready weapon (free action) then you shoot (simple action) then you ready action (if you had a free, it would be free, but since you don't it's costing you a simple action).

you're going to either start the turn with a bow readied with an arrow, or not. whichever you start with, the next turn (assuming you fire continually at your fastest rate) will be opposite. either way, over the long haul you're looking at 3 shots fired every 2 turns (or initiative passes, or whatever).

A character does not have one free action per pass, but one free action per initiative number.

This means that a character going on a 12 has 12 free actions. For example, saying one word is a free action, so a character going on a 12 could begin speaking on 12, and continue speaking until 1, saying 12 words.

With that thought in mind, characters can perform more than one free action between their two simple actions, the result simply being a delays second simple action.

For example, if a character was counting off his shots as he made them, the act of speaking would not preclude him being able to make two shots per turn. Again if he went on a 12 and was using an Ares Predator (Simple Action to shoot) he could point at his first target, and while shooting say 'One'. He could then shoot another target, but not say two unless he waits until 11 in order to have another free action available. The idea being, if he took both shots on a 12, the shots ring out before he finishes saying the word 'one'. If he says 'one' on 12 and shoots target one, then waits for 11 and says 'two' on 11 and shoots target two, he is able to count off his shots without taking less shots.

With that in mind, the same could go if he were loading a weapon with a free action. He could load his weapon on a 12 and use a simple action to shoot it. Then on an 11 he could load it again with another free action, and then shoot it. Two shots per turn, the second shot happening slightly later than the first.

Damien, could you quote some rules, because I have no idea what your talking about.

You're wrong.
SR4, 135, "A character can take either two Simple Actions or one Complex Action during his Action Phase. In addition, each character may take one Free Action at any point in the Initiative Pass (either during his own Action Phase or at any later time).

...

FREE ACTIONS
Free Actions are relatively simple, nearly automatic actions that require little or no effort to accomplish. Examples are saying a word, dropping an object, dropping prone, or walking. A character may take a Free Action during his own Action Phase or at some later point in the Initiative Pass. A character may not take a Free Action prior to his first Action Phase in the Initiative Pass."

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that one, man. It looks like 3-2.

i guess no more "talking is a free action" then...

"Talking takes no action." Easy enough.

memo to self, re-read the BBB, and not just skim it for new rules...

Oh, I just made that up as a potential solution.

heh, that probably how it ends up being played anyways but iirc, speaking is under free action...

and with the lesser number of free actions in SR4 vs earlier games, ouch!

Last game I played in, we had unlimited free actions. Course the GMs played pretty fast and loose anyways, so it didn't really stand out. Provided you have responsible players it doesn't affect combat that much. Trolls with 19 strength cyberlimbs, redlining them for some retarded huge bow shots don't count as responsible players.

Er ... when did Ready Weapon become a Free Action?

arsenal, martial arts, krav maga, most likely...

just watch out for those that want to call shot every time they attack...

Why not? They'll be taking a good amount of Stun from that, considering a bow's a two-handed weapon.

You get a whole phrase/short text for a free, not just one word.

SR4, 136, "Speak/Text Phrase
Speaking one phrase or sentence of verbal communication is a Free Action. If the character wants to speak more, each additional phrase/sentence requires a Free Action. The gamemaster should be careful to control excessive, unrealistic conversations within the span of a Combat Turn (about 3 seconds.) Some gamemasters and players may, however, prefer elaborate communication.
Characters who are equipped to send text messages through a neural connection with their commlink may also send short messages as a Free Action."

indeed, i checked up on it after making a ass of myself...

No I was pointing out that someone making a build specifically to take advantage of unlimited free actions isn't really a responsible player that you would want in a fast and loose game. Or at least I wouldn't. I can very easily handle powergaming characters since the group I played with forever, well we are all that way. So I don't have a problem with the concept, or implementation. Just saying you usually don't see someone making them for interesting roleplaying possibilities.

Funny how gameplay mechanics work. As far as I remember, Krav Maga has nothing to do with bow and arrows.

yep, as long as they come out and errata in something like (for firearms) after the "becomes a free action", this way of using it will be valid, if potentially unorthodox.

but then bows are already a strange thing in SR. in all versions i know of, a augmented troll with a bow have the firepower of a man portable rail gun. the basic effect of not putting some kind of hard cap on the tension the basic idea of a bow can handle.

but then the romans basically used a very large crossbow as a kind of pre-gunpowder cannon.

so if scientist and engineers can come up with materials and designs that can make a troll-portable (i highly doubt that it will be man-portable) bow able to withstand those kinds of forces, the basic idea could work.

I guess the question here is, how many free actions can a player take. It says they can take a free action on or after their turn. Exclusivity is not implied. Perhaps someone more official could shed some light on this.

My group falls back on realism when the rules are not clear. We have decided that a free action can be taken once on every initiative number throughout combat. Here is why:

Dropping a weapon is a free action, as is ejecting a clip and dropping prone. Imagine this:

Your super fast character takes his first action and finishes off his clip, unloading it into some gangers. He then takes a free action on his turn to eject the clip via his smartlink.

Later on the gangers turn, he is attacked in melee. He decides to drop his gun and use unarmed combat. During their actions, he is able to parry and block their attacks.

Near the end of the round a fellow runner pulls out a machine gun and levels it at the group. Seeing the danger, our character decides to drop prone to avoid being a target.

Allowing only one free action per initiative pass would allow him to only eject the clip. He could block the attacks by swinging his arms, but losing up his grip enough to drop the guns is too much action for him to take. He can run several steps throughout the round, but relaxing his legs and falling to the ground is much too complicated.

Clearly the rules intend for players to take more than one free action. How can you be allowed to parry, dodge, and maintain movement when it is not your turn, but you cant issue simple mental commands to your cyberware or let go of a weapon. That is just rediculous.

But infinite free actions does not make sense. With Krav maga and infinite free actions, a player could draw and drop a thousand paper clips in less than a second. Equally rediculous. The only result that can be logically concluded is that the rules intend is that a player can take more than one free action per round, and that should not be limitless. A natural solution to this is to allow one Free Action per initiative number.

As for rules references, please see:

SR CORE BOOK pages 137 (readying a weapon and free actions), p 306 (shooting a bow), Street Magic p.179 (quick draw) and Arsenal p. 157 (Krav Maga)

indeed, iirc the one free action pr character pr initiative number is how it was all the way up to SR4, so the sudden change (with the rest of the combat system carrying over more or less unchanged) makes for potentially weird situations. if synner or someone else could come online and clear this up, or maybe dump something into the faq (even tho the answers there just as often makes things worse), that would be nice

Yeah, a clarification would be good. From the verbiage they do not necessarily allow only one free action per turn. They say they can be taken on your turn or after it. Its really hard to imagine they would want to limit it to once per pass.

*shrug* I prefer the one free action per person per initiative pass myself. While it ends with IP one people being kind of slow and really having to chose their actions, I would prefer that people with 3 or 4 IPs not get, we will use your example of an initiative of 12 though that is low for someone with 4 IPs, 48 free actions over the span of 3 seconds. Keep in mind that all the things you were referring to above were supposed to be happening in approximately .75 seconds.

Chris

I cannot think of a good reason why they were would want it more than once per pass, and such a reason has yet to be presented in this thread.

In your elaborate example, you're missing one essential point. Despite the linear nature of tabletop initiative, actions are intended to be occurring nigh-simultaneously, in a series of staggered three-second spans. You're suggesting that it's entirely feasible for a character to walk, make two shots, eject his clip, drop his gun, participate in melee combat with several assailants, and then drop to the ground all within the same three second timeframe.

Hopefully we shouldn't need to expound on why this is unreasonable.

Obviously, the nature of the system pigeonholes a wide variety of actions into a single classification ("Free Action"): mentally pushing a button and speaking a short phrase don't require the same time or effort by any means, but they do all fit the bill of "something I can easily do (within three seconds) whilst doing something else (my simple or complex actions)."

ah, page 132, first column, "declare actions".

of all the places to have that spelled out?

and rereading the opening of "free actions" on page 135 backs that up, but with less words (and therefor being more open to interpretation).

at least for old hats like me, that have 2-3 version under ones belt, stuffing it in the "combat turn sequence" makes it very likely to be missed, as i know the SR combat sequence by heart, damn it!

Yes I agree, if you are unreasonable as a DM, and your players are unreasonable, and you allow them to do unreasonable things, then the results would be unreasonable. Strong point.

My group does an ok job of using common sense. If a Krav Maga player decided to quick draw and drop 24 grenades, I would tell him no. I cannot think of any reasonable situation where a DM would allow this. Rules are there to help us make the game more realistic, not to lock us into an unreasonable unreality. If I allow players to take a free action on each initiative number, I am going to put a reasonable limit on how many actions they take.



No, that is not what I am suggesting. Here is my point:

The rules allow you to walk, make two shots, eject your clip, then participate in melee combat with several assailants and dodge multiple bullets. Unless you are going to remove the parry and dodging mechanics, all of that is allowed.

What I am saying is, if you are allowing ALL of that, how does it make sense to tell the player 'sure, you can swing your arm to dodge, then dive roll to the side, then duck, then block a kick.... but if you want to add in dropping your gun or falling prone, NO NO NO, youve clearly taken it too far'. That is the very definition of rediculous.

If I can swing my arm to block an attack, I can relax my fingers to drop a gun.

If I can dodge bullets from three different directions, surely I can fall to the ground.

You did clarify the statement in the rules fairly well though, and yes, it DOES seem like their rules are suggesting that players get one free action per IP.

My question is then, how can I tell my player yes to dodging, blocking, running, and NO to dropping a gun or falling down? The underlying theme in the rulebooks is that all rules should be examined by a group and used only where they make sense and make the game more fun. In this situation, it doesnt seem like they are achieving that.

Because then you get some jackass with krav maga saying "i want to quickdraw and drop all 50 of my grenades"

Please refer to my prior comment on that:

Ok, let me amend that. He'll say "but I want to quickdraw and drop a grenade for every action he took. So one grenade for the 2 shots fired. Another for every 2 attacks defended against. Another for every 2 free actions afterwards. Oh, and he walked too, honestly, walking around is a lot harder than pulling a grenade out isn't it? So for every step he took that should be another one, right?"

Once one guy gets it by, the others will say "but they're all free actions, and he got that many".

That is when I say, "Get up and leave the table, you are not in my group anymore." You want to discuss something after the game that is fine, but when I make a call in the game that is it until we are done for the evening. I am quite the despot about things when we are actually running.

I realize that, but if in combat turn one, samurai 1 goes, and takes say, 10 actions total (shoot, shoot, walk, dodge 5 times, drop gun, go prone) would you say that a krav maga guy couldn't take a complex action to run, (equivilent of the 2 shoot actions, and then spend the other 8 free actions on readying and dropping grenades as he runs around?

Defending doesn't take up a free action. So why would they count? So I'd let him get away with 2 grenades. If he really wanted more I'd let him spend a point of edge to get 2 more out.

Defending was used in the examples as why it was unreasonable to only allow one free action per pass.

Well, the thing is. There are certain decisions made for game balance that have nothing to do with "real life". So trying to use those arguments for game mechanics is a bit silly in the first place.

Myself I tend to stick pretty close to the rules. However I am not opposed to an extra free action now and again. Like speaking an extra phrase or something along those lines.

In my opinion, all of these free actions require too much attention for one combat phase. And none of them require enough attention to take up a full pass. And I include defending, and the other automatic actions. Damien, I agree that what you describe isn't completely but having permissive rules leaves them open to abuse. I prefer to leave things looser.

Let me just throw out a few ideas for house rules...

1. One free action every five phases. Or three.

2. Defending and dodging counts as a free, and you can only do one of them per pass. That leaves you open for all of your players holding their attacks for at once.

3. Bump some free actions up to simples. Like "ready weapon"

4. Divide some free actions into several free actions. Like, (1) pull a grenade off your bandolier, (2) grab the pin, (3) drop it. Or (1) pull an arrow from your quiver (2) apply it to the bow and string. Then a simple to aim and release. Or (1) letting my legs go limp so I fall to the ground (2) trying not to get hurt on the way down... oops, too late.

*shrug*

Ready weapon IS a simple action, its through the benefit of krav maga that it drops down to a free action.

It seems to me that not all free actions were created equal, and the Krav Maga rule really causes an issue. Normally free actions are not very abusable (you can only drop prone once, it takes an action to get back up... and you can only drop something once, takes an action to draw it back out), and its not until you can quickdraw on a free that it becomes an issue. In my game we are going to house rule Krav Maga and say instead of making quick draw a free action, it will work like the Phys Ad quick draw (use quick draw rules on any item).

I think Free actions need to be used as a 'Play it by ear' kind of rule. Dropping prone, dropping an item, ejecting a clip... I will never tell a player no on that (unless they have not acted yet). If they do all of those things and speak a phrase, they may be pushing it, but not to any great exploit.

One thing that you have to remember is that the inititive rules for any game make it seem like the action is taking place seperately when in fact it's all pretty much happening at the same time in "real time". And if you think that you can do all those things in 3 seconds of time, you sir are a god.

And as was stated before in this topic, it is only one free action per pass per PC. The RAW is clear on that.



Not syaing that you can't run your game how you want. Just wanted to clear up the confusion on that.

Then call me Zeus, because I think I could fall down, drop whatever is in my hand, and think the thought 'eject' (the effort it takes to eject a clip with a smartlink) in LESS than 3 seconds. Do I need to record a video? Seriously though, falling down and dropping something at the same time... not talking about an olympic effort here. But we are talking about runners who may have olympic grade skills with artificially enhanced physical abilities... dropping something and falling prone shouldnt be too tough for them.



Ill refer to my previous post:



I am not currently arguing that the rules say anything else, I am saying the rules are unreasonable.

Damien, i'd love to see you fire a 10 round full auto burst, then think "eject clip" drop the gun, and drop prone all inside of 3 seconds.

I don't care how you're aiming for the burst, cause you don't have super awesome skill, just try to keep it pointed in a general area.

Oh, and duck and bob a weave a little, as if you were getting shot at too.

Think about the lobby scene in the first Matrix movie. Once the swat guys started shooting, it was probably 9 to 12 seconds before they were all dead. In slow motion we were able to observe Neo and Trinity dodging, running, cartwheeling, disarming, blocking, shooting etc. etc. etc. and it seemed fantastic... but not totally beyond the physics of someone who can move faster than humans are normally allowed to.

The problem here is, we are saying someone has the ability to shoot, duck, bob, weave, run and parry... but then add fall down or drop something, and NOW its suddenly too complicated!?

If you can move your arm to block 4 or 5 times as you are attacked in melee and that is within the rules, why couldnt you drop one item from your hands?

If you can actively dodge someone shooting at you, which entails moving your body out of the way... why couldnt you drop prone?

The rules are giving away parry and dodge actions, then denying even SIMPLER actions.

So Tarantula, the real question is... can you block 5 melee attacks faster than you could drop a pencil from your hand?

One pencil? No. One pencil, and drop prone, and shoot/attack someone in melee combat/etc? Probably.

I am not even talking about your actions. I am talking about actions that are LESS than Free actions. Actions that cost nothing and can always be taken, such as Parrying and Dodging. Adding shooting to it does not affect it, because you are adding shooting to both actions.

IE. Dodge and parry several attacks vs. Drop one pencil

You are saying:

IE. Shoot 10 rounds, then dodge and parry several attacks vs. Shoot 10 rounds then drop one pencil

You need to see the point of what I am saying... if you are going to allow engaging in melee as a free action that can be implemented as many times as your reaction allows, why not allow one extra free action of dropping an object?

You take a penalty for defending against multiple attacks. You don't get the option of one for a second free action because free actions don't take tests.

If you really argued the point at my table, i'd probably houserule that you could take a -1 to your defending pool for an extra free action, essentially trading defending against an attack for an extra free action.

And finally you see my point... you have to houserule it because telling a character he cant drop something is kind of silly.

Like I said earlier, Free actions are not game breaking... in fact half of them you can only do once until your next action anyway (drop a gun, then your hand is empty until you have a simple action to draw, or drop prone you are on the ground until you have a complex action to stand).

Its only a real problem when you add Krav Maga to it, which is easily fixed by making Krav Maga work just like the Quickdraw phys ad power.

Anyway, I think this topic has been beaten beyond death. Suffice it to say Free Actions are imperfect, as some things are bound to be in any ruleset.