 Noob question re: invisibility |
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 Jan 1 2004, 03:46 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,946  |
Hm...this isn't strictly speaking covered in the rules, as far as I've been able to tell. When a character is invisible, can their aura be seen on the astral? It seems as if the spell would be pretty useless otherwise.
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Jan 1 2004, 04:12 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
Yes, both the target's aura and the Invisibility spell's aura are visible on the Astral plane at all times.
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Jan 1 2004, 05:13 PM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Why would it be useless otherwise?
~J |
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Jan 2 2004, 04:24 AM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's always seemed pretty silly, to me. i mean, invisibility affects the mind, not the eyes; why shouldn't it be effective against astral perception, which is solely a function of the mind?
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Jan 2 2004, 04:38 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,946 |
Exactly my point. Additionally, any corporation worth its salt has lots of astral security, making it pretty ridiculous to try to sneak in anywhere using the spell.
Edit: Which is not to say I didn't appreciate your reply, Spooky...I was, after all, wondering what the canon was on the issue. |
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Jan 2 2004, 04:41 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,947 |
It doesn't affect astral perception because astral perception is not sight. They describe it as sight simply because it's the easiest for us, as human players, to comprehend it. It's a completely different sense -- a completely different sense that exists on two planes at once -- and Invisibilty was custom tailored to affect sight.
Even a custom-tailored spell couldn't do it. You can't affect both planes simultaneously. Now if you were to create an Astral Invisibility spell and cast it alongside Invisibility, that might be doable. But no single spell can fill the bill. |
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Jan 2 2004, 04:42 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,946 |
Ok, I could understand it if there were an Astral Invisibility spell as well...that would balance the power of the two spells, and impose a +4 modifier to sustain if both were on at the same time.
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Jan 2 2004, 05:09 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 344 Joined: 28-July 03 Member No.: 5,133 |
That's one of the problems with magic and invisibility. Spells are astral objects, they can be seen.
Invisibility could be argue to conceal the target's aura from the astral, meaning you couldn't see the aura because it's covered in an invisibility spell which itself, is visible. Remember that identifying spells is not so easy a task and requires ascensing rolls to detect it's relative force and class. The very concept of "astral" invisibility would require using non-magical means since any magical means would themself have an astral presence. The best you can do, normally is masking, which allows you to alter the aura you give off, but even then, the "minimum" astral footprint is that of an unawaked human i.e. the aura of a living being. Sunday. However, you COULD use that as an advantage, meaning that if you stand there astrally projecting but masking your aura to that of an unawaked man. Now this would be bloody obvious to anyone who is dual as they would see your aura and completely fail to see a physical body and therefore deducing you are in fact, astral and masked. But let's look at patrolling spirit A who is told to be on the lookout for astrally active intruders. He exists solely on the astral (at the moment that is) and so your astral and masked mage could blend with a crowd of actual people and provided he was careful not to let anyone walk through him, could fool the spirit. It's all very tricky but it can be done. Kong. |
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Jan 2 2004, 05:40 AM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
It might be possible to mask the astral component of the spell. It would probably require a more advanced version of masking (Cloaking?) but it might be possible.
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Jan 2 2004, 07:10 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 211 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,444 |
First, masking can hide the astral presence of a spell; if the spell's force is less than the mages initiate grade, he has the masking ability, and he isn't trying to hide any other astral things (like foci or quickened spells). If the total force rating of everything he is trying to hide is higher than his initiate rating, then he needs to use intentional masking, which requires a die roll. (I don't have my books with me, so I don't know if it's a magic check, or an initiate grade check.)
Next, a case can be made for allowing the normal invisibility spell to hide someone on both the physical and astral planes, as its a mind-affecting (mana) spell, hence why it doesn't hide its caster from cameras, as cameras don't have minds. However, nothing in the spell description mentions that the invisibility spell can hide its own astral signature, but maybe thats getting too nit-picky. Although it would be interesting to see the reaction you'd get from an astrally percieving entity witnessing a free-floating spell... The improved invisibility spell (the only one I've seen used in my SR experience), is a physical spell, so it bends light around the mage (or lets light pass through him, or something like that), which has no effect in the astral. However, like a preveous poster pointed out, an initiate with masking could mask his aura to make himself appear to be a mundane, and if he's powerful enough, he could also hide the spell, it would just be very obvious to dual creatures that something's very wrong with the mundane auro flaoting around the astral without an attached meat-body. Anyways, that's just my two cents, hope it wasn't too painful. S'Ren |
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Jan 2 2004, 07:29 AM
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#11
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
No, it doesn't It's an illusion, not a manipulation. hence it does not actually bend or change anything.
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Jan 2 2004, 12:41 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
Except the description of Indirect Illusion spells does mention that they "manipulate energy to create an illusionary image", so Sren's interpretation isn't necessarily invalid. However, BitBasher's interpretation is the most generally accepted interpretation. |
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Jan 2 2004, 12:57 PM
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#13
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Just an FYI, the people here are quite wrong on their replies. It is purely up to the GM's interpretation. The book only says that spells, etc are visible from the Astral Plane. Considering the Invisibility Spell is 'around' a target, and your aura is just your 'mirror' on the astral, then the Invisibility Spell is also 'around' your Aura. So, for your Aura to be visible, you must House Rule/Interpete that Spells on the Astral Plane are actually Transparent (making them alot harder to notice). If you don't assume that spells are Transparent, then the only thing the Perception will show you is that there is a humanoid object on the other side of that spell shaped 'around' a Human. Personally, our team has House Ruled spells on the Astral, and I thought you might appreciate our method so thought I'd post a part of them. Each 'category' of spell has its own color. Since the Astral Plane has been described in previous editions as a Black/White with only living things and spells providing the vibrant color in the plane, we've given each category a color. Of Interest, our Invisibility (and all other Indirect Illusion spells) are grey, thus Helping you remain invisible on the Astral by giving you a +4 to your stealth roll (just like Camo) when viewed on the Astral Plane while maintaining an Indirect Illusion spell. It's NOT Canon, just a House Rule we like, but it makes Invisibility a bit more invisible. ;) Sphynx |
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Jan 2 2004, 01:16 PM
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#14
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Since (by Canon) a more powerful spell would leave a bigger astral impact, then a Force 6 invis would be greyer than a Force 1? :rotfl: |
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Jan 2 2004, 01:35 PM
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#15
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
That's Canon? Have a page reference there? If by a 'bigger astral impact' you're referring to the signature lasting longer, then agreed. But signature has no effect on the current view, only residual view, so no increased visual 'impact'. If you mean that it's easier to detect via Astral Patrolling, only partially correct. Although it's easier to detect the magic, pinpointing its location is not covered by the patrolling rules (Otherwise you're seeing right through buildings and other non-transparent objects which isn't possible). Either way, since visual sighting is covered only by perception/assensing, that doesn't mean it's a greater visual 'impact' either. So no, Grey is Grey on the spell in our House Rule. And nothing Canon says that Force gives something a greater visual impact. As a matter of fact, unless you get at LEAST 3 successes on a Simple Action (Assensing, meaning you took time out to give something a good looking at), you can't even tell anything about the Force of a spell. Sphynx |
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Jan 2 2004, 03:57 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
Invisibility and Improved Invisibility are single-sense (visual) illusions. Astral perception isn't a visual sense - it doesn't even require a functional set of eyes. Although it is frequently described in terms common to the mundane senses, astral perception is, in fact, a separate sixth sense only possessed by the Awakened. Invisibility is as useless against astral perception as it is against hearing, touch, taste, or smell.
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Jan 2 2004, 04:11 PM
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#17
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Perhaps then you would care to explain how an astral guard is supposed to engage an intruder if he does not know the location of that intruder? Thus it is implied in the paragraphs detailing Astral patrolling that an astral guard would have the location of the intruder once he/it has detected the intruder. There is no explicit explanation for locating an intruder because it is logically assumed that once an inturder is detected by a guard, the intruder's location is also known to the guard. Perhaps greater astral impact would be better reworded as long lasting astral signature and greyer might been a fresher grey (Use Nippon astral paint for long lasting colours!). But I didn't really have time for semantics just then. |
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Jan 2 2004, 04:16 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Not entirely correct there Spooky for 2 reasons.
1) Astral Perception IS a visual sense. I'm aware of the "psychic sense" explanation, but you are still interpretating it in your head as a visual image. Kinda like the UltraSound system which isn't visual, but visual images are created through the sound echoes. 2) More importantly, unless you can show me something that says spells are 'transparent', then creating a spell 'around' a target will block your 'sense' of the target. You may indeed see that the target is there, but the question wasn't if you see the target, it's if you see the Aura of the target. This may seem a mute point, but blocking someone's assensing of someone's Aura can be a very important and strategic usage of an Indirect Illusionary spell. Not so effective when you cast it on yourself, due to signatures being too similar between the spell and the caster, but highly important when trying to block the Assensing of another person's Aura. However, agreed that, unless you House Rule it in a manner similar to how we have, Invisibilty will not be effective at being less 'visible' on the Astral Plane. However, it will completely block a view of a person's Aura (as would any Indirect Illusionary spell). Sphynx |
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Jan 2 2004, 04:22 PM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Better question is 'How long does it take?'. Astral Patrol rules have no time delay at all, it pretty much says "You enter and we're aware.". TN increases for alot of buildings and walls, but doesn't increase the delay it takes in finding the intruder. And considering you can't Astrally Perceive through solid objects such as buildings and walls, you're obviously not being granted 'sight' of the intruder. The only explanation is that the 'detection' is a feeling, a 'movement in the Force' ;). Nowhere does it say that the patrollers know the location, but merely that they 'detect' an intruder. Sphynx |
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Jan 2 2004, 04:27 PM
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#20
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Not necessarily. If it's an issue not addressed by the book then it is just that, an issue not addressed by the book. It can be either. The flipside of that argument is: "More importantly, unless you can show me something that says spells are 'opaque'... Since it is not addressed it can work however the GM wants it to. That's like saying since the book doesn't address bananas in the game, therefore by 2062 all bananas must be blue and posionous. You don't know that because it was never addressed. Check my signature link and see what logical fallacy this falls under :D
The word is "moot" in that instance, not "mute". Sorry to correct you but it really bugged me for some reason.
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Jan 2 2004, 04:34 PM
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#21
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
The spirit search power locates a target or in this case an intruder. If location was not part of the detection rigamole then why would a guard spirit with the search power be granted a -2 modifier? Quite logically, in this case detection is tantamount to location. |
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Jan 2 2004, 04:43 PM
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#22
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
BitBasher: That would explain my comment: "It is purely up to the GM's interpretation" and my comment: "Not entirely correct". But thanks for the Moot point. ;)
Toturi: That's not logical at all, not even kinda logical. Sure, the 'Search Power' shows a more in-tuneness to ones own area and thus more likely to notice the mana flow being jiggled some. But that doesn't neccesitate that they must be suddenly granted an Astral Perception that goes through Walls and Buildings the split second that someone with a spell enters their patrolled area just because they're on Astral Patrol. Sphynx |
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Jan 2 2004, 04:47 PM
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#23
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
But the Search power LOCATES a target. If location wasn't part of the deal, then Search would be useless.
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Jan 2 2004, 04:49 PM
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#24
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
<slaps self>
Good.. now that we got that out of the way :D I swear to some miscellaneous diety that the search power had a timeframe which was divided by sucesses on a force<tn> test. It's not instant. But again, I may be on crack for the second time in one thread... :D |
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Jan 2 2004, 04:53 PM
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#25
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
If Search was used, then it wouldn't be just modifier. :P I can't explain why Search gives -2 other than to suggest that a spirit with the Search Power is more 'in tune' with its domain. But I'm not going to House Rule such an overpowered ability such as insta-awareness and location of someone who enters within my patrol area regardless, and that's what you do with giving a precise location, you House Rule a HUGE bonus to a basic level power. I mean, seriously, already players who want to abuse those rules can basically tell how many spirits/spells are in a location by 'patrolling' it, get split-second knowledge, and stack that with the exact location of every spirit in the plex? I think not.... (PS, I don't mind continueing this interesting discussion, but I think we should start our own thread if you really want that)
Sphynx |
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