Full Version: Noob question re: invisibility
Hm...this isn't strictly speaking covered in the rules, as far as I've been able to tell. When a character is invisible, can their aura be seen on the astral? It seems as if the spell would be pretty useless otherwise.
Yes, both the target's aura and the Invisibility spell's aura are visible on the Astral plane at all times.
Why would it be useless otherwise?
~J
~J
that's always seemed pretty silly, to me. i mean, invisibility affects the mind, not the eyes; why shouldn't it be effective against astral perception, which is solely a function of the mind?
Exactly my point. Additionally, any corporation worth its salt has lots of astral security, making it pretty ridiculous to try to sneak in anywhere using the spell.
Edit:
Which is not to say I didn't appreciate your reply, Spooky...I was, after all, wondering what the canon was on the issue.
Edit:
Which is not to say I didn't appreciate your reply, Spooky...I was, after all, wondering what the canon was on the issue.
It doesn't affect astral perception because astral perception is not sight. They describe it as sight simply because it's the easiest for us, as human players, to comprehend it. It's a completely different sense -- a completely different sense that exists on two planes at once -- and Invisibilty was custom tailored to affect sight.
Even a custom-tailored spell couldn't do it. You can't affect both planes simultaneously. Now if you were to create an Astral Invisibility spell and cast it alongside Invisibility, that might be doable. But no single spell can fill the bill.
Even a custom-tailored spell couldn't do it. You can't affect both planes simultaneously. Now if you were to create an Astral Invisibility spell and cast it alongside Invisibility, that might be doable. But no single spell can fill the bill.
Ok, I could understand it if there were an Astral Invisibility spell as well...that would balance the power of the two spells, and impose a +4 modifier to sustain if both were on at the same time.
That's one of the problems with magic and invisibility. Spells are astral objects, they can be seen.
Invisibility could be argue to conceal the target's aura from the astral, meaning you couldn't see the aura because it's covered in an invisibility spell which itself, is visible. Remember that identifying spells is not so easy a task and requires ascensing rolls to detect it's relative force and class.
The very concept of "astral" invisibility would require using non-magical means since any magical means would themself have an astral presence.
The best you can do, normally is masking, which allows you to alter the aura you give off, but even then, the "minimum" astral footprint is that of an unawaked human i.e. the aura of a living being.
Sunday.
However, you COULD use that as an advantage, meaning that if you stand there astrally projecting but masking your aura to that of an unawaked man. Now this would be bloody obvious to anyone who is dual as they would see your aura and completely fail to see a physical body and therefore deducing you are in fact, astral and masked.
But let's look at patrolling spirit A who is told to be on the lookout for astrally active intruders. He exists solely on the astral (at the moment that is) and so your astral and masked mage could blend with a crowd of actual people and provided he was careful not to let anyone walk through him, could fool the spirit.
It's all very tricky but it can be done.
Kong.
Invisibility could be argue to conceal the target's aura from the astral, meaning you couldn't see the aura because it's covered in an invisibility spell which itself, is visible. Remember that identifying spells is not so easy a task and requires ascensing rolls to detect it's relative force and class.
The very concept of "astral" invisibility would require using non-magical means since any magical means would themself have an astral presence.
The best you can do, normally is masking, which allows you to alter the aura you give off, but even then, the "minimum" astral footprint is that of an unawaked human i.e. the aura of a living being.
Sunday.
However, you COULD use that as an advantage, meaning that if you stand there astrally projecting but masking your aura to that of an unawaked man. Now this would be bloody obvious to anyone who is dual as they would see your aura and completely fail to see a physical body and therefore deducing you are in fact, astral and masked.
But let's look at patrolling spirit A who is told to be on the lookout for astrally active intruders. He exists solely on the astral (at the moment that is) and so your astral and masked mage could blend with a crowd of actual people and provided he was careful not to let anyone walk through him, could fool the spirit.
It's all very tricky but it can be done.
Kong.
It might be possible to mask the astral component of the spell. It would probably require a more advanced version of masking (Cloaking?) but it might be possible.
First, masking can hide the astral presence of a spell; if the spell's force is less than the mages initiate grade, he has the masking ability, and he isn't trying to hide any other astral things (like foci or quickened spells). If the total force rating of everything he is trying to hide is higher than his initiate rating, then he needs to use intentional masking, which requires a die roll. (I don't have my books with me, so I don't know if it's a magic check, or an initiate grade check.)
Next, a case can be made for allowing the normal invisibility spell to hide someone on both the physical and astral planes, as its a mind-affecting (mana) spell, hence why it doesn't hide its caster from cameras, as cameras don't have minds. However, nothing in the spell description mentions that the invisibility spell can hide its own astral signature, but maybe thats getting too nit-picky. Although it would be interesting to see the reaction you'd get from an astrally percieving entity witnessing a free-floating spell...
The improved invisibility spell (the only one I've seen used in my SR experience), is a physical spell, so it bends light around the mage (or lets light pass through him, or something like that), which has no effect in the astral. However, like a preveous poster pointed out, an initiate with masking could mask his aura to make himself appear to be a mundane, and if he's powerful enough, he could also hide the spell, it would just be very obvious to dual creatures that something's very wrong with the mundane auro flaoting around the astral without an attached meat-body.
Anyways, that's just my two cents, hope it wasn't too painful.
S'Ren
Next, a case can be made for allowing the normal invisibility spell to hide someone on both the physical and astral planes, as its a mind-affecting (mana) spell, hence why it doesn't hide its caster from cameras, as cameras don't have minds. However, nothing in the spell description mentions that the invisibility spell can hide its own astral signature, but maybe thats getting too nit-picky. Although it would be interesting to see the reaction you'd get from an astrally percieving entity witnessing a free-floating spell...
The improved invisibility spell (the only one I've seen used in my SR experience), is a physical spell, so it bends light around the mage (or lets light pass through him, or something like that), which has no effect in the astral. However, like a preveous poster pointed out, an initiate with masking could mask his aura to make himself appear to be a mundane, and if he's powerful enough, he could also hide the spell, it would just be very obvious to dual creatures that something's very wrong with the mundane auro flaoting around the astral without an attached meat-body.
Anyways, that's just my two cents, hope it wasn't too painful.
S'Ren
| QUOTE |
| a physical spell, so it bends light around the mage (or lets light pass through him, or something like that), |
No, it doesn't It's an illusion, not a manipulation. hence it does not actually bend or change anything.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
No, it doesn't It's an illusion, not a manipulation. hence it does not actually bend or change anything. |
Except the description of Indirect Illusion spells does mention that they "manipulate energy to create an illusionary image", so Sren's interpretation isn't necessarily invalid. However, BitBasher's interpretation is the most generally accepted interpretation.
| QUOTE (Grinzwilly) |
| Hm...this isn't strictly speaking covered in the rules, as far as I've been able to tell. When a character is invisible, can their aura be seen on the astral? It seems as if the spell would be pretty useless otherwise. |
Just an FYI, the people here are quite wrong on their replies. It is purely up to the GM's interpretation. The book only says that spells, etc are visible from the Astral Plane.
Considering the Invisibility Spell is 'around' a target, and your aura is just your 'mirror' on the astral, then the Invisibility Spell is also 'around' your Aura. So, for your Aura to be visible, you must House Rule/Interpete that Spells on the Astral Plane are actually Transparent (making them alot harder to notice). If you don't assume that spells are Transparent, then the only thing the Perception will show you is that there is a humanoid object on the other side of that spell shaped 'around' a Human.
Personally, our team has House Ruled spells on the Astral, and I thought you might appreciate our method so thought I'd post a part of them.
Each 'category' of spell has its own color. Since the Astral Plane has been described in previous editions as a Black/White with only living things and spells providing the vibrant color in the plane, we've given each category a color. Of Interest, our Invisibility (and all other Indirect Illusion spells) are grey, thus Helping you remain invisible on the Astral by giving you a +4 to your stealth roll (just like Camo) when viewed on the Astral Plane while maintaining an Indirect Illusion spell. It's NOT Canon, just a House Rule we like, but it makes Invisibility a bit more invisible.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Personally, our team has House Ruled spells on the Astral, and I thought you might appreciate our method so thought I'd post a part of them. Each 'category' of spell has its own color. Since the Astral Plane has been described in previous editions as a Black/White with only living things and spells providing the vibrant color in the plane, we've given each category a color. Of Interest, our Invisibility (and all other Indirect Illusion spells) are grey, thus Helping you remain invisible on the Astral by giving you a +4 to your stealth roll (just like Camo) when viewed on the Astral Plane while maintaining an Indirect Illusion spell. It's NOT Canon, just a House Rule we like, but it makes Invisibility a bit more invisible. Sphynx |
Since (by Canon) a more powerful spell would leave a bigger astral impact, then a Force 6 invis would be greyer than a Force 1?
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Since (by Canon) a more powerful spell would leave a bigger astral impact, then a Force 6 invis would be greyer than a Force 1? |
That's Canon? Have a page reference there?
If by a 'bigger astral impact' you're referring to the signature lasting longer, then agreed. But signature has no effect on the current view, only residual view, so no increased visual 'impact'.
If you mean that it's easier to detect via Astral Patrolling, only partially correct. Although it's easier to detect the magic, pinpointing its location is not covered by the patrolling rules (Otherwise you're seeing right through buildings and other non-transparent objects which isn't possible). Either way, since visual sighting is covered only by perception/assensing, that doesn't mean it's a greater visual 'impact' either.
So no, Grey is Grey on the spell in our House Rule. And nothing Canon says that Force gives something a greater visual impact. As a matter of fact, unless you get at LEAST 3 successes on a Simple Action (Assensing, meaning you took time out to give something a good looking at), you can't even tell anything about the Force of a spell.
Sphynx
Invisibility and Improved Invisibility are single-sense (visual) illusions. Astral perception isn't a visual sense - it doesn't even require a functional set of eyes. Although it is frequently described in terms common to the mundane senses, astral perception is, in fact, a separate sixth sense only possessed by the Awakened. Invisibility is as useless against astral perception as it is against hearing, touch, taste, or smell.
| QUOTE (Sphynx @ Jan 2 2004, 09:35 PM) | ||
That's Canon? Have a page reference there? If by a 'bigger astral impact' you're referring to the signature lasting longer, then agreed. But signature has no effect on the current view, only residual view, so no increased visual 'impact'. If you mean that it's easier to detect via Astral Patrolling, only partially correct. Although it's easier to detect the magic, pinpointing its location is not covered by the patrolling rules (Otherwise you're seeing right through buildings and other non-transparent objects which isn't possible). Either way, since visual sighting is covered only by perception/assensing, that doesn't mean it's a greater visual 'impact' either. So no, Grey is Grey on the spell in our House Rule. And nothing Canon says that Force gives something a greater visual impact. As a matter of fact, unless you get at LEAST 3 successes on a Simple Action (Assensing, meaning you took time out to give something a good looking at), you can't even tell anything about the Force of a spell. Sphynx |
Perhaps then you would care to explain how an astral guard is supposed to engage an intruder if he does not know the location of that intruder?
Thus it is implied in the paragraphs detailing Astral patrolling that an astral guard would have the location of the intruder once he/it has detected the intruder.
There is no explicit explanation for locating an intruder because it is logically assumed that once an inturder is detected by a guard, the intruder's location is also known to the guard.
Perhaps greater astral impact would be better reworded as long lasting astral signature and greyer might been a fresher grey (Use Nippon astral paint for long lasting colours!). But I didn't really have time for semantics just then.
Not entirely correct there Spooky for 2 reasons.
1) Astral Perception IS a visual sense. I'm aware of the "psychic sense" explanation, but you are still interpretating it in your head as a visual image. Kinda like the UltraSound system which isn't visual, but visual images are created through the sound echoes.
2) More importantly, unless you can show me something that says spells are 'transparent', then creating a spell 'around' a target will block your 'sense' of the target. You may indeed see that the target is there, but the question wasn't if you see the target, it's if you see the Aura of the target.
This may seem a mute point, but blocking someone's assensing of someone's Aura can be a very important and strategic usage of an Indirect Illusionary spell. Not so effective when you cast it on yourself, due to signatures being too similar between the spell and the caster, but highly important when trying to block the Assensing of another person's Aura.
However, agreed that, unless you House Rule it in a manner similar to how we have, Invisibilty will not be effective at being less 'visible' on the Astral Plane. However, it will completely block a view of a person's Aura (as would any Indirect Illusionary spell).
Sphynx
1) Astral Perception IS a visual sense. I'm aware of the "psychic sense" explanation, but you are still interpretating it in your head as a visual image. Kinda like the UltraSound system which isn't visual, but visual images are created through the sound echoes.
2) More importantly, unless you can show me something that says spells are 'transparent', then creating a spell 'around' a target will block your 'sense' of the target. You may indeed see that the target is there, but the question wasn't if you see the target, it's if you see the Aura of the target.
This may seem a mute point, but blocking someone's assensing of someone's Aura can be a very important and strategic usage of an Indirect Illusionary spell. Not so effective when you cast it on yourself, due to signatures being too similar between the spell and the caster, but highly important when trying to block the Assensing of another person's Aura.
However, agreed that, unless you House Rule it in a manner similar to how we have, Invisibilty will not be effective at being less 'visible' on the Astral Plane. However, it will completely block a view of a person's Aura (as would any Indirect Illusionary spell).
Sphynx
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Perhaps then you would care to explain how an astral guard is supposed to engage an intruder if he does not know the location of that intruder? |
Better question is 'How long does it take?'. Astral Patrol rules have no time delay at all, it pretty much says "You enter and we're aware.". TN increases for alot of buildings and walls, but doesn't increase the delay it takes in finding the intruder. And considering you can't Astrally Perceive through solid objects such as buildings and walls, you're obviously not being granted 'sight' of the intruder. The only explanation is that the 'detection' is a feeling, a 'movement in the Force'
. Nowhere does it say that the patrollers know the location, but merely that they 'detect' an intruder. Sphynx
| QUOTE |
| 2) More importantly, unless you can show me something that says spells are 'transparent', then creating a spell 'around' a target will block your 'sense' of the target. |
Not necessarily. If it's an issue not addressed by the book then it is just that, an issue not addressed by the book. It can be either. The flipside of that argument is: "More importantly, unless you can show me something that says spells are 'opaque'... Since it is not addressed it can work however the GM wants it to.
That's like saying since the book doesn't address bananas in the game, therefore by 2062 all bananas must be blue and posionous. You don't know that because it was never addressed.
Check my signature link and see what logical fallacy this falls under
That's like saying since the book doesn't address bananas in the game, therefore by 2062 all bananas must be blue and posionous. You don't know that because it was never addressed.
Check my signature link and see what logical fallacy this falls under
| QUOTE |
| This may seem a mute point, |
The word is "moot" in that instance, not "mute". Sorry to correct you but it really bugged me for some reason.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) | ||
Better question is 'How long does it take?'. Astral Patrol rules have no time delay at all, it pretty much says "You enter and we're aware.". TN increases for alot of buildings and walls, but doesn't increase the delay it takes in finding the intruder. And considering you can't Astrally Perceive through solid objects such as buildings and walls, you're obviously not being granted 'sight' of the intruder. The only explanation is that the 'detection' is a feeling, a 'movement in the Force' . Nowhere does it say that the patrollers know the location, but merely that they 'detect' an intruder. Sphynx |
The spirit search power locates a target or in this case an intruder. If location was not part of the detection rigamole then why would a guard spirit with the search power be granted a -2 modifier?
Quite logically, in this case detection is tantamount to location.
BitBasher: That would explain my comment: "It is purely up to the GM's interpretation" and my comment: "Not entirely correct". But thanks for the Moot point.
Toturi: That's not logical at all, not even kinda logical. Sure, the 'Search Power' shows a more in-tuneness to ones own area and thus more likely to notice the mana flow being jiggled some. But that doesn't neccesitate that they must be suddenly granted an Astral Perception that goes through Walls and Buildings the split second that someone with a spell enters their patrolled area just because they're on Astral Patrol.
Sphynx
Toturi: That's not logical at all, not even kinda logical. Sure, the 'Search Power' shows a more in-tuneness to ones own area and thus more likely to notice the mana flow being jiggled some. But that doesn't neccesitate that they must be suddenly granted an Astral Perception that goes through Walls and Buildings the split second that someone with a spell enters their patrolled area just because they're on Astral Patrol.
Sphynx
But the Search power LOCATES a target. If location wasn't part of the deal, then Search would be useless.
<slaps self>
Good.. now that we got that out of the way
I swear to some miscellaneous diety that the search power had a timeframe which was divided by sucesses on a force<tn> test. It's not instant. But again, I may be on crack for the second time in one thread...
Good.. now that we got that out of the way
I swear to some miscellaneous diety that the search power had a timeframe which was divided by sucesses on a force<tn> test. It's not instant. But again, I may be on crack for the second time in one thread...
If Search was used, then it wouldn't be just modifier. 
I can't explain why Search gives -2 other than to suggest that a spirit with the Search Power is more 'in tune' with its domain. But I'm not going to House Rule such an overpowered ability such as insta-awareness and location of someone who enters within my patrol area regardless, and that's what you do with giving a precise location, you House Rule a HUGE bonus to a basic level power. I mean, seriously, already players who want to abuse those rules can basically tell how many spirits/spells are in a location by 'patrolling' it, get split-second knowledge, and stack that with the exact location of every spirit in the plex? I think not.... (PS, I don't mind continueing this interesting discussion, but I think we should start our own thread if you really want that)
Sphynx
I can't explain why Search gives -2 other than to suggest that a spirit with the Search Power is more 'in tune' with its domain. But I'm not going to House Rule such an overpowered ability such as insta-awareness and location of someone who enters within my patrol area regardless, and that's what you do with giving a precise location, you House Rule a HUGE bonus to a basic level power. I mean, seriously, already players who want to abuse those rules can basically tell how many spirits/spells are in a location by 'patrolling' it, get split-second knowledge, and stack that with the exact location of every spirit in the plex? I think not.... (PS, I don't mind continueing this interesting discussion, but I think we should start our own thread if you really want that)Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| 1) Astral Perception IS a visual sense. I'm aware of the "psychic sense" explanation, but you are still interpretating it in your head as a visual image. Kinda like the UltraSound system which isn't visual, but visual images are created through the sound echoes. |
A visual sense, yes, but not sight. People with no eyes can astrally perceive just fine.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
The word is "moot" in that instance, not "mute". Sorry to correct you but it really bugged me for some reason. |
Does the point speak? Is the point capable of speaking? Lo, a mute point
~J
If Astral Perception was a visual sense, you would just make standard visual Perception Tests. But you don't, you make Astral Perception Tests. It's not vision, it's only described as a visual sense because it's the only frame of reference we have. It's a completely different sense, above and beyond all others, hence the use of the term "Astral Perception" instead of "Astral Sight."
Oh, yeah, like we're going to trust someone with your username.
~J
~J
Actually, it is called "Astral Sight" as well as "the Sight" and the only quote in the book is that it's not based on "physical vision" in any way which means, by my interpretation, that not only is it sight, it's visual sight that is not created through the input of a physical medium. It's Astral Sight that does not need Eyeballs to "see".
Sphynx
Sphynx
To each their own.
But I guess that's why you can actually project your entire being into that plane and float around, interacting with items. Because it's just another type of sight.
In modern vernacular, ESP is also known as "The Sight," but that doesn't make it anything other than the sixth sense that it is. Yes, the text regularly makes mention of vision and things you see, but that's because it's the only real frame of reference we as human beings have.
Astral Perception is more closely related to Thermosense Organs than anything else in the game. Both are completely different senses, and just like Thermosense Organs, Astral Perception relies on its own special type of Perception Test. Because it's not visual. If it were, a regular visual Perception Test would be made and any mana-based spells or adept powers that affect vision would apply as well. Eyes or not.
But I guess that's why you can actually project your entire being into that plane and float around, interacting with items. Because it's just another type of sight.
In modern vernacular, ESP is also known as "The Sight," but that doesn't make it anything other than the sixth sense that it is. Yes, the text regularly makes mention of vision and things you see, but that's because it's the only real frame of reference we as human beings have.
Astral Perception is more closely related to Thermosense Organs than anything else in the game. Both are completely different senses, and just like Thermosense Organs, Astral Perception relies on its own special type of Perception Test. Because it's not visual. If it were, a regular visual Perception Test would be made and any mana-based spells or adept powers that affect vision would apply as well. Eyes or not.
Actually I'd argue even that. In my interpretation you do need eyeballs to Percieve Astrally, you just don't need functional eyeballs. It says Blind people can see, it doesnt directly address the issue of whether the eyeballs need to be physcailly present, making it the domain of GM fiat. Thus in my game, physically remove someone's eyeballs and they are blind astrally too. It's a metaphorical move, and magic is mased on metaphor much of the time.
So in your games does a wound to the genitals render the mage mundane?
~J
~J
Sorry if I seem confused Snake Oil, but what ARE you talking about? What does Astral Projection have to do with "the Vision"?
The book clearly uses the word "sight" quite often when referencing Astral Perception. It is a form of sight, it's just not related, in any way, to the physical version of the same sense. It is visual.
Sphynx
The book clearly uses the word "sight" quite often when referencing Astral Perception. It is a form of sight, it's just not related, in any way, to the physical version of the same sense. It is visual.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| The book clearly uses the word "sight" quite often when referencing Astral Perception. It is a form of sight, it's just not related, in any way, to the physical version of the same sense. It is visual. |
Yes indeed, the book uses the term "sight" when talking about astral perception, but obviously this term is not identical to the term "sight" when it comes to the sense that is affected by the single sense illusion "invisibility" which only affects physical sight but not astral sight ... Obviously two different types of "sight", just as they are different senses ...
2 different types of sights, yes. Not 2 different senses though, both are vision based.
Sphynx
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| 2 different types of sights, yes. Not 2 different senses though, both are vision based. |
As I tried to point out: Obviously not when it comes to the sense "vision" (doesn't make a difference if I use "sight" or "vision" here) that is affected by single sense illusions ...
I can't give the exact page number, but the core rules on spell targeting are very specific on that. An astrally perceiving magician can perfectly "see" a person with astral perception although he /she might be unable (failed resistance test) to "see" that person with his physical sight / vision ...
Two points on masking.
Firstly active masking (where you can mask 2x grade in foci or spells) is an exclusive magical action, so you cannot sustain a spell and activly mask it. You could use a sustaining focus to sustain the spell then mask the focus and the spell, but you have just doubled the force you need to mask so that did not really help you. A hermetic mage could use an elemental to sustain the spell, but I think the elemental has to be there astrally and it cannot be masked. Anyway end result is that you just have to have a darn high initiate grade to mask an illusion spell of worthwhile force.
Secondly it is true that you can mask your aura to appear as a mundane, however I do not beleive you can mask your aura to conceal the fact that you are perceiving or projecting. I think one of the books even specifically mentioned that it was silly to mask as a mundane while projecting because anyone who saw you would just be more interested in how you got there without a body. Similarly if you mask as a mundane while astrally perceiving anyone who sees you will assume you are an initiate or something more unusual. The perceiving one puts me on shakey ground though, as your body is still there. Still just because you can make you aura look like a mundane does not mean you can make it look like a mundane who is not astrally active.
Firstly active masking (where you can mask 2x grade in foci or spells) is an exclusive magical action, so you cannot sustain a spell and activly mask it. You could use a sustaining focus to sustain the spell then mask the focus and the spell, but you have just doubled the force you need to mask so that did not really help you. A hermetic mage could use an elemental to sustain the spell, but I think the elemental has to be there astrally and it cannot be masked. Anyway end result is that you just have to have a darn high initiate grade to mask an illusion spell of worthwhile force.
Secondly it is true that you can mask your aura to appear as a mundane, however I do not beleive you can mask your aura to conceal the fact that you are perceiving or projecting. I think one of the books even specifically mentioned that it was silly to mask as a mundane while projecting because anyone who saw you would just be more interested in how you got there without a body. Similarly if you mask as a mundane while astrally perceiving anyone who sees you will assume you are an initiate or something more unusual. The perceiving one puts me on shakey ground though, as your body is still there. Still just because you can make you aura look like a mundane does not mean you can make it look like a mundane who is not astrally active.
| QUOTE (Rev) |
| Similarly if you mask as a mundane while astrally perceiving anyone who sees you will assume you are an initiate or something more unusual. The perceiving one puts me on shakey ground though, as your body is still there. Still just because you can make you aura look like a mundane does not mean you can make it look like a mundane who is not astrally active. |
Page 76, MitS. Masking an Astral Form.
Masking may be used by dual-natured charactors to make their astral forms appear as mere auras. In this way, an astrally perceiving, dual natured charactor who is masking himself will not appear to be astrally percieving at all...
I think that answers your argument.
Indeed. Sounds like that should work for projection as well. Though only if you were carefull not to use 3d movement, move too fast, or go through walls or people.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Just an FYI, the people here are quite wrong on their replies. |
Nope. Spookymonster, in the very first reply, was fundamentally correct, barring minor nitpicking with Masking and so on.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| It is purely up to the GM's interpretation. |
Nope, except insofar as everything in the game is up to the GM's interpretation.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| The book only says that spells, etc are visible from the Astral Plane. |
The book says a whole lot more than that, if you would care to read it.
Like this, for example:
| QUOTE (SR3 @ p.195) |
| Although mana illusions can appear on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test (see Astral Perception, p. 171). Illusions do not disguise or create auras. |
Or this, from the (Improved) Invisibility spell description:
| QUOTE (SR3 @ p.195) |
| This spell makes the subject invisible to normal vision. The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses. Their aura is still visible to astral perception. |
(emphasis added)
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Considering the Invisibility Spell is 'around' a target, and your aura is just your 'mirror' on the astral, then the Invisibility Spell is also 'around' your Aura. So, for your Aura to be visible, you must House Rule/Interpete that Spells on the Astral Plane are actually Transparent (making them alot harder to notice). If you don't assume that spells are Transparent, then the only thing the Perception will show you is that there is a humanoid object on the other side of that spell shaped 'around' a Human. |
Per the rules quoted above, illusions cannot disguise auras. (Improved) Invisibility works only against normal vision - and whatever terminology games you may care to play to redefine assensing as "vision", it is not, by any reasonable standard, normal vision - and (Improved) Invisibility explicitly leaves auras visible to astral perception.
If you want to house-rule things your way, that's your business - gods know I house-rule enough stuff - but don't present your house rules as canon.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Actually I'd argue even that. In my interpretation you do need eyeballs to Percieve Astrally, you just don't need functional eyeballs. It says Blind people can see, it doesnt directly address the issue of whether the eyeballs need to be physcailly present, making it the domain of GM fiat. Thus in my game, physically remove someone's eyeballs and they are blind astrally too. It's a metaphorical move, and magic is mased on metaphor much of the time. |
I'm personally of the opinion that the statement that it has nothing to do with physical vision covers eyeball removal, too.... but that aside, I don't think that removing my current character's physical eyeballs would have the desired metaphorical effect. If anything, it'd improve his astral perception. He's already followed in his god's footsteps in spending nine days hanging from the World Tree in search of knowledge, and if he were to lose his eyes, well, his god went there before him, too. And they don't call Ol' One-Eye "the All-Seeing" for nothing... He sees more through the eye He doesn't have than through the one He does...
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| And they don't call Ol' One-Eye "the All-Seeing" for nothing... He sees more through the eye He doesn't have than through the one He does... |
Methinks his throne might have something to do with that.
Yeah, but the eye in the well of knowledge is part of it, too. So are the ravens, and probably other things I've forgotten.
I don't think I've ever disagreed with Sphynx the way I disagree with him on his arguments that Astral Perception is a form of sight.
| QUOTE |
| SR3, p. 171 on Astral Perception Many Awakened characters can percieve the astral plane from the physical world. This ability is called astral perception. Known as "the Sight" among the Awakened, astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it's a psychic sense. |
This quote is the be all and end all in regards to that discussion. The interpretation of this quote is up to the individual GMs. Sphynx states that because it's known as "the Sight" among the Awakened it must also be a psychic version of sight, which I don't agree with. It's easy to refer to it in that way, so that it gives a bit of substance and body to people who aren't able to treat it as is - a psychic sense, which, to me, has more to do with emotion than anything empiric. You don't "see" you "feel." And that, for all intents and purposes doesn't change anything in the game.
The same with Astral Projection. You don't actually traverse any distance, you just let your mind expand beyond the borders of the physical shell that is your body. You perceive all that is around you as you guide your mind outward, your mind touches base with the abundance of emotion that's out there and because we can't put it in any other terms than in mundane terms, we talk about Astral Projection as actual physical travel, just as we talk about Astral Perception as physical sight.
Yeah, that's why I didn't reply to John, I think you're both right now that I've gone back over things. AP is not vision based, and you can see the Aura of an invisible person. I like our 'house ruling' of it being a sight with colors, etc, etc better than Canon though, but I accept that our way is purely a House Ruling and definitely not Canon.
Sphynx
AP is not vision based, and you can see the Aura of an invisible person. I like our 'house ruling' of it being a sight with colors, etc, etc better than Canon though, but I accept that our way is purely a House Ruling and definitely not Canon.Sphynx
Not that I'm arguing that Astral Perception is not a psychic sense because it is, but if it has nothing to do with vision, why do things like smoke hinder a perceiving person? I understand permanent structures being opaque, but if the perceiver is just 'sending his mind' out, then non-permanent visual impairments should not affect him.
Thick smoke changes the way sound works too.
~J
~J
| QUOTE |
| Not that I'm arguing that Astral Perception is not a psychic sense because it is, but if it has nothing to do with vision, why do things like smoke hinder a perceiving person? |
Smoke hinders Astral Perception? Wow. So that's one more house rule...
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Smoke hinders Astral Perception? Wow. So that's one more house rule... |
Nope, that ain't a house rule ... Take a look at p. 82 of MitS ... There's that little table with astral perception modifiers ... and it does include fog and smoke
Was being ambiguous again. I meant: So that's one more thing I do in my games that turned out to be a house rule.
Because Astral Perception works just like sight, but on the astral. IE: you cannot see through things you could not on the other.
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