Astral Hazing for a Magician, Seems like a bad idea, right? Options

[McAllister]

Two questions about Astral Hazing.

First; it says that it's a rating 4 background count (no mention of mana ebbs or negative counts, so I'm going to assume positive) that's tainted by darker emotions. Is there any way to use this to my advantage? I'm sure "darker emotions" describes most blood magicians' practices. Could I take up blood magic, use it for really twisted stuff, and get 4 added to my magic instead of subtracted? Or maybe just get the bonus if I'm using magic while feeling particularly emotionally tormented? If that were so, I'd be more than willing to pay for it as if it were a positive quality.

Also, how does it interact with metamagics? Can I Cleanse it, or aspect it towards my own tradition with Geomancy?

[Machiavelli]

First: you can´t play twisted mages
Second: acc. to RAW you should be able to cleanse it...for a while. Geomancy? Why not, if the GM allows it, everything is possible. But UNTIL you are an intiate and have this 2 metatechniques, you will be f***ed up quite bad. At least, no spells harm you.^^

[Ravor]

Actually, the rules for Blood Mages aren't really that bad, but Toxics are alittle incomplete.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Is there any way to use this to my advantage?

Sure.

It overrides the ambient mana levels - meaning you will always be at BGC 4, no matter if in deep space or a toxic wasteland.
Also, anything magical not featuring force or magic will work just fine, like defensive Counterspelling and Banishing for Attack of Will.

Given that anyone in close combat with you will not only lose 4 magic/force (even of their weapon foci), but also their domain advantage, you really should train unarmed combat and MAs. In fact, if a spirit is Force 4 or lower, you just have to reach it to disrupt it.

But, basically, you can cast Magic in Space! (And any mage hanging arround can so, too.) How Awesome is that?
Of course, if your GM allows you (or others...) to use Geomancy on yourself, things will go crazy from there...

[KCKitsune]

Does anyone else here think that a mage with Astral Hazing can cast magic in space? I'm thinking that it would not. The reason for my belief is that it violates one of the rules of magic.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Actually, that fact is based on the rules of magic, especially those in Street Magic concerning the mana level.

[thearistocrat]

Actually, the rules for Blood Mages aren't really that bad, but Toxics are alittle incomplete.

Blood Mage Rule 1: Player Characters can never learn blood magic or be blood mages.

Blood Mage Rule 2-100: Consult rule 1.

[Machiavelli]

Even i as an absolutely PG accept this. Follow me.^^

[toturi]

Does anyone else here think that a mage with Astral Hazing can cast magic in space? I'm thinking that it would not. The reason for my belief is that it violates one of the rules of magic.

By RAW, I think it does. In fact, I had suggested a variant of this in one of the discussions some time back - instead of the mage having Astral Hazing, the Street Sam or the Technomancer of the group take it and provide a fallback, bedrock position for the Awakened members to retreat to.

[Doc Byte]

Also, how does it interact with metamagics? Can I Cleanse it, or aspect it towards my own tradition with Geomancy?

Doc's guide to powergaming:

First step: Cleanse your own BC
Second step: Channel it and get 4 bonus dice

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

If that really worked you would have a more or less permanent version of aspected mana static force 4 without any bad points for you . . so no, i don't think it works that way . . of course, if you can bribe your GM into allowing this kind of sillyness, more power to you . . literally ^^

[Doc Byte]

Just one word: P.o.w.e.r.g.a.m.i.n.g™

[McAllister]

Thank you all for your contributions.

The "can you use magic in space" question is quite interesting! Now, the description of Astral Hazing refers to it as a mana domain, which means there's more mana available in it than "default" (bg count 0). The problem is that it's aspected, so most magicians receive a penalty. For use in space, I'd just go with adding 4 to the negative count; for example, -9 would become -5, which means you'd stand a chance of stunballing a devil rat. It's like your negative emotion-emitting brain is trying to light up a dark football stadium with a flashlight, only the stadium is space and the light is mana.

And with regards to blood mages, I can play them. I mean that in the sense that nothing in the books explicitly states they're not to be used for player characters, and all the necessary rules are provided. That said, WHY should I follow TheAristocrat's rules 1-100 and never ever play a blood mage?

Also, a quote, Street Magic, pg 136: "Where the line is drawn (if at all) is left to the individual gamemaster and his group."

[Stahlseele]

Just one word: P.o.w.e.r.g.a.m.i.n.g™

MOOREE POOWEER!

[DireRadiant]

If it doesn't hamper you, it is not a Negative Quality.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Have you seen some of the "positive" Qualities? Like Escaped Clone?

[Draco18s]

The "can you use magic in space" question is quite interesting! Now, the description of Astral Hazing refers to it as a mana domain, which means there's more mana available in it than "default" (bg count 0). The problem is that it's aspected, so most magicians receive a penalty. For use in space, I'd just go with adding 4 to the negative count; for example, -9 would become -5, which means you'd stand a chance of stunballing a devil rat. It's like your negative emotion-emitting brain is trying to light up a dark football stadium with a flashlight, only the stadium is space and the light is mana.

I don't think Astral Hazing will ever raise a mana deficient zone to higher mana levels, such as outer space not having a -12 BGC.

The way I think about Astral Hazing is that you have a permanent area of aspected domain of mana around you. It is aspected towards You, not your tradition, but aspected You. Meaning that no one may ever gain the positive benefits of the BGC.

[Wiggles Von Beer...]

Blood Mage Rule 1: Player Characters can never learn blood magic or be blood mages.

Blood Mage Rule 2-100: Consult rule 1.

Depends on your GM and how you do it. I played a blood mage who was taught the Sacrifice metamagic by malevolent trickster spirit. My character hated himself, and nearly killed himself overcasting each run. I only got to use blood magic once though.

It worked out pretty well.

[Stahlseele]

I don't think Astral Hazing will ever raise a mana deficient zone to higher mana levels, such as outer space not having a -12 BGC.

The way I think about Astral Hazing is that you have a permanent area of aspected domain of mana around you. It is aspected towards You, not your tradition, but aspected You. Meaning that no one may ever gain the positive benefits of the BGC.

not even yourself? O.o

[Neraph]

Blood Mage Rule 1: Player Characters can never learn blood magic or be blood mages.

Blood Mage Rule 2-100: Consult rule 1.

Ahem.

That said, allowing player characters to follow twisted paths may provide a unique challenge to gamemasters and players willing to explore mature and potentially disturbing characters and themes in their campaign.

It is strongly advised that twisted metamagics remain the province of NPC's. Player characters should not have access to these powers unless the gamemaster allows them to become twisted.

(emphasis added)

"Strongly advised" and "should" mean "might" and "possibly". All twisted metamagics are left up to GM discretion, but twisted archetypes are completely fine. IE: getting Sacrifice metamagic I would have to let my GM allow me; playing a 'necromancer' my GM shouldn't disallow (honestly, all you need is a posession tradition and the Preserve spell. Easy).

The way I think about Astral Hazing is that you have a permanent area of aspected domain of mana around you. It is aspected towards You, not your tradition, but aspected You. Meaning that no one may ever gain the positive benefits of the BGC.

The way I always saw it is that you carry around a r4 backround count. It would interact in all other ways as backround count. It would overwrite other positive count that is lesser than itself.

And technically, since the text says it is "an aspected domain in her own right", that begs the question; aspected to what? Even the text for cyberzombies, which Astral Hazing points to, states "the cyberzombie becomes a domain in her own right", implying that it is aspected for itself (albeit adding 4 dice to a 1 Magic, not very useful). However, if it truely acted as BC does, then all CZs would die, every time (having their Magic 1 reduced by their own BC...).

[thearistocrat]

The Aztlan Sourcebook got blood magic right the first time, Magic in the Shadows / SR4 be damned.

"Gamemasters should note that rules for blood magic and conjuring blood spirits apply ONLY to non-player characters.
No player character can EVER become a blood mage or conjure blood spirits: only the villialns they may face (if they're particularly unlucky) can do such things." [no emphasis added]

From a game-breaking, NPC-restricted domain with a personal 1,000,000 nuyen bounty from the Dragon's Will to "oh yeah, that blood mage can totally go on runs with us."

[Adarael]

I would welcome any PC blood mage into my party. And then I would welcome the million dollars his ass would fetch after I sold him to DIMR!

[thearistocrat]

I would welcome any PC blood mage into my party. And then I would welcome the million dollars his ass would fetch after I sold him to DIMR!

The problem is that he has to be alive, and your .3 essence street samurai is already running in the other direction.

[Mäx]

From a game-breaking, NPC-restricted domain with a personal 1,000,000 nuyen bounty from the Dragon's Will to "oh yeah, that blood mage can totally go on runs with us."

Maybe the runner team is working for DIMR, rest of the team are payed by the DIMR to go in runs with their blood mage.

[Adarael]

Man, what? My .3 essence Samurai could sucker-punch his ass cold and then keep him in sense-dep, drugged to the gills.
At least, a halfway decent Samurai could knock him out with a sucker attack.

(Actually, my longest running game DID have a blood mage who was reformed and on the run from the Azzies. Init grade 3, with Sacrificing, Channeling, Invoking. It was godawful. I still think my Hermetic could take him, though. Centering, Quickening, Shielding, Psychometry ftw.)

[Draco18s]

The way I always saw it is that you carry around a r4 backround count. It would interact in all other ways as backround count. It would overwrite other positive count that is lesser than itself.

And technically, since the text says it is "an aspected domain in her own right", that begs the question; aspected to what?

I haven't read up on cyberzombies, but "aspected domain in her own right" I have always taken to mean that it's aspected towards the character, but that the character's tradition (or whatever) never matches the character. "Jessy who has astral hazing has an aura of Jessy Domain, but Jessy doesn't practice Jessy Magic, she practices Bear Magic."

[Stahlseele]

OK, that would be one way of looking at it . . the other being that magic in Sr depends on what the user wants it to be . .
It WOULD give Psionists a nice little boost, as they believe their magic to be completeley their own power, nothing magical.

[Draco18s]

OK, that would be one way of looking at it . . the other being that magic in Sr depends on what the user wants it to be . .
It WOULD give Psionists a nice little boost, as they believe their magic to be completeley their own power, nothing magical.

Spirits would also have to have a whole nother set of rules then, as well. How would a psionic justify being able to conjure a mental projection (or whatever they think it is) that's smarter than he is?

[Stahlseele]

I think the Psionics can only do some limited conjouring, if any at all . . am at work, no books.
And i still think the aspected astral hazing would be scary.

[Draco18s]

Street Magic:

These days, psionics is considered a quaint and outdated
paradigm by the wider magical community; a flawed understanding
of magic being gradually eroded by its own inability
to explain many of the everyday realities and accept the fundamental
conventions of modern thaumaturgy. Nonetheless,
die-hard psionics persist, denouncing so-called “magical traditions�
and their esoteric teachings as superstitious hocuspocus
clouding the truth—that all “magic� is actually an expression
of the power of the metahuman mind and will.

Which covers anything I can find on psions. Psionic doesn't actually exist as a tradition as far as I can find.

[phantom]

psionics is covered more in digital grimoire. Basically, it's a possession tradition that call's its spirits thought-forms

[Neraph]

Spirits would also have to have a whole nother set of rules then, as well. How would a psionic justify being able to conjure a mental projection (or whatever they think it is) that's smarter than he is?

The communal subconsious. You "summon" the communal subconsious, which is evidently smarter than yourself.

[Meatbag]

The communal subconsious. You "summon" the communal subconsious, which is evidently smarter than yourself.

On this topic, I found it particularly irksome that psionics can't take Mentor Spirits, explicitly.

If they think the Astral Plane == Collective Unconsciousness, which is about the only way it would make any damn sense, then particularly archetypal ideas would gain some truly amazing power.

[AngelisStorm]

I haven't read up on cyberzombies, but "aspected domain in her own right" I have always taken to mean that it's aspected towards the character, but that the character's tradition (or whatever) never matches the character. "Jessy who has astral hazing has an aura of Jessy Domain, but Jessy doesn't practice Jessy Magic, she practices Bear Magic."

THIS is an awsome way to look at it (and explain it).

Btw, WTF psionics can't take Mentors? Collective Unconscious, Archtypes? Hello? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Machiavelli]

Yeah, "Jessy´s Magic"....good point. Never thought of it this way. Why? Hmmm...because the rules are clear.^^

[Stahlseele]

They are?
Where?

[KCKitsune]

I think that they should have left out the whole Psionic tradition all together. That way, if Catalyst wanted to they could introduce it as a new power type. I mean they already have Psionic people in Shadowrun... Technomancers. They are not magical, their Powers work in space, what ELSE could they be?

[AngelisStorm]

Yeah, "Jessy´s Magic"....good point. Never thought of it this way. Why? Hmmm...because the rules are clear.^^

What are you ,making reference to. OR, to state it more eloquently...

They are?
Where?

Moving on:

I think that they should have left out the whole Psionic tradition all together. That way, if Catalyst wanted to they could introduce it as a new power type. I mean they already have Psionic people in Shadowrun... Technomancers. They are not magical, their Powers work in space, what ELSE could they be?

And their powers come from their brains, man! (Not a bad answer, btw. Technomancers can't do alot of things that psionics traditionally are attributed with (psionics and magic have alot of overlap ability wise), but Shadowrun isn't our world, so I can see your arguement. Who knows, maybe someday Technomancers will be able to hack the human body. One never knows.)

[KCKitsune]

And their powers come from their brains, man! (Not a bad answer, btw. Technomancers can't do alot of things that psionics traditionally are attributed with (psionics and magic have alot of overlap ability wise), but Shadowrun isn't our world, so I can see your arguement. Who knows, maybe someday Technomancers will be able to hack the human body. One never knows.)

The "hack the human body" power would be telepathy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Heck, I wrote up rules (with the help of paws2sky) for Psionics in Shadowrun. The powers were somewhat like mages, but limited. If anybody is interested I'll send them to you.

[Machiavelli]

What are you ,making reference to. OR, to state it more eloquently...

If one thing is absolutely clear, then it is that you get 4 magic points subtracted. So what else do you have to know? It is interesting to know for who the aspected domain counts, but that it counts against you, is perfectly clear. The BC is fed from your own dark emotions, so you practically f**ck yourself.^^

[Neraph]

I haven't read up on cyberzombies, but "aspected domain in her own right" I have always taken to mean that it's aspected towards the character, but that the character's tradition (or whatever) never matches the character. "Jessy who has astral hazing has an aura of Jessy Domain, but Jessy doesn't practice Jessy Magic, she practices Bear Magic."

That's a great point, but that still doesn't remove the ability of Geomancy. Geomancy changes the domain's aspect to that of you geomancer's own tradition.

Granted, being in BC 4 until you can initiate would severely hurt, but it'd only hurt for a little bit.

[Draco18s]

That's a great point, but that still doesn't remove the ability of Geomancy. Geomancy changes the domain's aspect to that of you geomancer's own tradition.

Granted, being in BC 4 until you can initiate would severely hurt, but it'd only hurt for a little bit.

True. Geomancy might work, I'll have to take a look at it.

However, shooting from the hip I'd say that it doesn't only because the BC area grows over time (it's roughly 8 to 12m in diameter after having slept (edit: 4-6m). Due to that factor, you could aspect the domain, but it would only reduce the radius down to 0 and then start growing normally. If you're out and moving around, then you have to aspect the very ground you walk on continuously. That is, the geomancer aspecting wouldn't be mobile.

Edit:
Geomancy of a BC 4 area takes four lunar months. It's also very specifically a fixed location, as the site must have the right "feng shui" depending on the caster's tradition.

You could probably aspect your living area such that at home your Astral Hazing acts as a benefit, or at least a null zone (+4 local, -4 personal), but geomancy works over time, Astral Hazing works now (1 meter ever 2-3 hours, so not quite as far as I stated for sleeping. Ritual Sorcery (Geomancy uses these rules) also takes 12 hours to do, so the astral hazed area has expanded by 4 meters in radius just in the time it takes you to perform one ritual!

[Neraph]

True. Geomancy might work, I'll have to take a look at it.

However, shooting from the hip I'd say that it doesn't only because the BC area grows over time (it's roughly 8 to 12m in diameter (?) after having slept. Due to that factor, you could aspect the domain, but it would only reduce the radius down to 0 and then start growing normally. If you're out and moving around, then you have to aspect the very ground you walk on continuously. That is, the geomancer aspecting wouldn't be mobile.

You don't geomancy the area, you geomancy the backround count. Since your backround count is mobile, you're geomancied BC would be, too. Or, to try and explain it a different way, geomancy works with aspecting the mana flow, and since you're mana flow is you, and you don't restart your mana flow (when you sit still, it leaks further), you just have to worry about yourself.

You'd have to get some wierd tattoos/branding/implants in order to make the fluff, though.

The new moon had come again. Chauncey began the night with a sacrifice of small animals, as he had for the last few months. Using the knife, with innocent, sacrificial blood still on it, he began to trace sigils in the holy script his mentor, the Dark King had revealed to him. As he worked his careful art, he noticed the sinister aspect of the strong emotions that pooled around him like so many popups became stronger. When the night was finally done, another line from the Necronomicon was etched into his skin, and he sagged with fatigue. Only one more month and two more chapters of script were left, and complete control over his emotions was complete. Just as the Dark King had told him.

[Draco18s]

It'd be kinda cheesy. Looking to take on X Corp over there? Rent an apartment nearby. Not move for 1 month (ie. never leave your apartment). Your now aspected aura extends 224 meters away from your apartment. Just large enough to cover the entire city block in every direction, including X Corp's building. Wait another month. 448 meter radius BC 4 (that's a half mile circle), X Corp's mages have been unable to summon spirits for a month now. Any they had have long since headed home.

Time to strike.

Edit: hell, take up residence first, then aspect your domain. It'd be 2 miles across just in the time it takes for you to aspect it.

[Neraph]

It'd be kinda cheesy. Looking to take on X Corp over there? Rent an apartment nearby. Not move for 1 month (ie. never leave your apartment). Your now aspected aura extends 224 meters away from your apartment. Just large enough to cover the entire city block in every direction, including X Corp's building. Wait another month. 448 meter radius BC 4 (that's a half mile circle), X Corp's mages have been unable to summon spirits for a month now. Any they had have long since headed home.

Time to strike.

Edit: hell, take up residence first, then aspect your domain. It'd be 2 miles across just in the time it takes for you to aspect it.

X Corp's mages only have 4 magic? They deserve to be pwned. Plus, they could Cleanse your BC, or use that metamagic to allow them to cast anyways. Or they could have CZs themselves. Or they could be totally mechanized, with those rail-only drones, and no wireless signals.

Besides, unless you've got a SIN, I think Lone Star's magical division (can't remember the name right now) would find out what you're doing before you could finish Geomancy-ing yourself, and prolly nail you for some sort of magical terrorism.

EDIT: It's not broken, it just requires creativity on the GM's part. It's honestly not very different than a Fomori/Gnome mage with a r4 Power Focus at the beginning of play (which you can totally do, BTW).

[Draco18s]

After poking my GM he says that you could aspect a huge area effected by the hazing towards a particular aspect ('dog shaman') but that the hazing would slowly (ha!) overwrite it with mana static (the haze). You can NEVER aspect the haze itself, only what the haze creates.

Which is what I'm saying.

In any case, good luck making 8 successes on a ritual spellcasting test when you only have ~6 dice (ritual spellcasting + magic -4).

X Corp's mages only have 4 magic? They deserve to be pwned.

If they have higher than 4 magic, now they have 4 less magic. All the time. 6 magic before? 2 magic now, they'll be pwned. Summoning spirits: -4 dice. Lower cap on spirit's force. Spirit is summoned and loses 4 force being in the haze. All spells immediately lose 4 force when cast (not to mention having 4 fewer dice to cast the spell as well as needing to overcast to achieve force 5+ before the count takes it's cut). A magic 2 mage (magic 6 before the BC) simply CAN NOT cast any magic.

To even cast spells while in the BC area you need magic 7. To cast spells that mean anything you'd have to be magic 8 or better. Magic 9 would be needed in order to cast a spell without needing to overecast.

[Neraph]

After poking my GM he says that you could aspect a huge area effected by the hazing towards a particular aspect ('dog shaman') but that the hazing would slowly (ha!) overwrite it with mana static (the haze). You can NEVER aspect the haze itself, only what the haze creates.

Which is what I'm saying.

In any case, good luck making 8 successes on a ritual spellcasting test when you only have ~6 dice (ritual spellcasting + magic -4).

This is how the rules work.

You are the heart of a R4 Backround Count. If you stand still, it grows. There is no mention that it overlaps and flows and all that other stuff (that's fluff, not crunch). So if anything, if you were to move after aspecting, you'd only lose the outer ring, as the BC you've already aspected moves with you. The 'haze' is fluff; it is counted as being a backround count of 4, and we can work with backround counts.

Clarify this even further with Augmentation:

Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the cyberzombie always stands at the heart of a rating 4 backround count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters... If she remains in one place for long, the backround count will expand...

The term 'expand' does not mean 'replace and get bigger' or 'renew'.

Geomancy is treated as casting a Ritual Spell, at force 8, requiring 8 successes. You can easily get the dice required for 8 successes at chargen; however, in order to get the 4 magic required to overcast to effective force 8, you'd either have to Initiate II and raise magic twice, or be Infected with the Energy Drain power (and use it to buff your Magic).

[Stahlseele]

Hmm . . Astral Hazing is a flaw yes?
And Fomori get the Astral Arrester right?
And Type-O would be an edge.
Soo, start out with Fomori with both, get mucho bio, when you can afford it get adapsin to be able to cram more cyber into your body for cheap too?

[Neraph]

Hmm . . Astral Hazing is a flaw yes?
And Fomori get the Astral Arrester right?
And Type-O would be an edge.
Soo, start out with Fomori with both, get mucho bio, when you can afford it get adapsin to be able to cram more cyber into your body for cheap too?

I don't see what that has to do with Astral Hazing, but yes, that would work. Except you can't get Astral Hazing with 5 points of SURGE. Astral Hazing takes 10 BP of negative qualities from SURGE.

[Mäx]

I don't see what that has to do with Astral Hazing, but yes, that would work. Except you can't get Astral Hazing with 5 points of SURGE. Astral Hazing takes 10 BP of negative qualities from SURGE.

You can if you have room for 5 BP of normal negative qualities.

[Draco18s]

You are the heart of a R4 Backround Count. If you stand still, it grows. There is no mention that it overlaps and flows and all that other stuff (that's fluff, not crunch). So if anything, if you were to move after aspecting, you'd only lose the outer ring, as the BC you've already aspected moves with you. The 'haze' is fluff; it is counted as being a backround count of 4, and we can work with backround counts.

Look at Geomancy, it specifies that the area being aspected is in fact an area, a location. Locations (last I checked) don't move around.

[Neraph]

Look at Geomancy, it specifies that the area being aspected is in fact an area, a location. Locations (last I checked) don't move around.

Actually, the key word that I see is "site," defined as a "domain," which is used in describing Astral Hazing as well. There's some fluff in the fluff sections for it that suggest a physical geographical area, but when it talks about just rules, all it cares for is a backround count. Which Astral Hazing is.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

In fact, Astral Hazing makes the character a domain by RAW.

[Umbra]

Looking again at the description of Astral Hazing in the Runner's Companion I noticed that it says:

"Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence; this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened."

I'm reading this to say that if you somehow aspect the domain of the Astral Hazing character to work with your style of magic, then you set the ambient mana conditons immediately back to a state of impairing your own actions. Basically, if you could use Geomancy to aspect the domain to your style of magic, it would be instantly aspected back to hazing before you can finish counting your Hits.

Augmentation has one extra line explaining the rate of the domain returning to normal (1 point per day), so the best you could hope for is 3 days after the Cyberzombie has left and you currently have a Background Count 1 Astral Hazing, you could use Geomancy to Aspect it towards your style of magic for the remainder of the final day before it finishes returning to a background count of the original location.


Filtering is really the way to go when dealing with Astral Hazing.

[Neraph]

Looking again at the description of Astral Hazing in the Runner's Companion I noticed that it says:

"Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence; this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened."

I'm reading this to say that if you somehow aspect the domain of the Astral Hazing character to work with your style of magic, then you set the ambient mana conditons immediately back to a state of impairing your own actions. Basically, if you could use Geomancy to aspect the domain to your style of magic, it would be instantly aspected back to hazing before you can finish counting your Hits.

Augmentation has one extra line explaining the rate of the domain returning to normal (1 point per day), so the best you could hope for is 3 days after the Cyberzombie has left and you currently have a Background Count 1 Astral Hazing, you could use Geomancy to Aspect it towards your style of magic for the remainder of the final day before it finishes returning to a background count of the original location.


Filtering is really the way to go when dealing with Astral Hazing.

That is an excellent point. I don't know how I missed that.

[Draco18s]

...wasn't that my original point?

[Neraph]

...wasn't that my original point?

It may have been, but you were using fluff and not crunch to back up your argument. For example, I could say that my tailored pherimones smell like candied apples, but the game only cares that my smell gives me +3 dice. It wouldn't by RAW give me a penalty to someone who hates apples, although the GM might rule it that way. In the same way, saying the descriptive text of a power works one way, yet not quoting an actual rules section of a power, is not an effectual way of persuading a reader.

[Neraph]

Augmentation has one extra line explaining the rate of the domain returning to normal (1 point per day), so the best you could hope for is 3 days after the Cyberzombie has left and you currently have a Background Count 1 Astral Hazing, you could use Geomancy to Aspect it towards your style of magic for the remainder of the final day before it finishes returning to a background count of the original location.

Actually, upon secondary reading of that myself, that is not what that line of text says. It talks about the ambient mana conditions returning to normal after the cyberzombie leaves. If the CZ has an aspected BC to onions, then that onion BC will fade when he leaves, not onions will fade from his BC.

Once a cyberzombie has left an area, the mana will shift towards its normal conditions at the rate of about 1 point per day.

So you can still Geomancy Astral Hazing, given enough time and preparation, because it is treated as a BC. The only thing that makes it different from normal BC is the fact that it follows you around and grows when you stop.

[Draco18s]

So you can still Geomancy Astral Hazing, given enough time and preparation, because it is treated as a BC. The only thing that makes it different from normal BC is the fact that it follows you around and grows when you stop.

Ahem

"Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, [...] this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened."

[Neraph]

Ahem

"Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, [...] this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened."

Under normal conditions, certainly. However, the Geomancy metamagic has rules that involve backround count. THAT is the point I am trying to make.

It's like saying that since you don't have a hand, you can't use things. Well, yes, certainly that is right. However, if you get a cyberlimb replacement, then that changes things, now doesn't it?

[Falconer]

Quite frankly that whole section is an utter mess. Classic case of fluff authors shouldn't write rules.

Things should have been stated such as the maximum size it can reach. And it would have been far less problematic if it functioned as a mana void modifier to the local area (can't aspect a void).


Background count itself is a little tough to put down. As background count is simply the absolute value of the ebb or void.

And whoever wrote that the hazing is 'aspected' should be shot. Unaspectable would have made this entire line of silliness disappear.


My biggest problem w/ geomancy here is you're suggesting that it can be changed... I'd argue it can't. Geomancy involves doing things to color the mana and the effect of the local environment on producing that coloring. The things which geomancy influences (ley lines, filtering etc) which normally produce the background count aren't present in this case. You have a single unadulterated source. (maybe we could do feng shui surgery on it and rearrange it's organs).

That much said... if I make a quadriplegic elf w/ this as a 6/6 contact... put it in a full VR lifestyle. Then raise up a cult around it. That count will surely expand every year and it won't move. Now if I craft the tradition correctly, it is aspected to the tradition. I did this in another thread a while back... it comes out to something like a few km a year.

Talking strict raw silliness... given a few hundred years of this... and her BGC would automatically supercede all other counts provided she doesn't leave the area and start the sequence fresh. And her area will keep growing until it encompasses the entire planet.

[Neraph]

My biggest problem w/ geomancy here is you're suggesting that it can be changed... I'd argue it can't. Geomancy involves doing things to color the mana and the effect of the local environment on producing that coloring. The things which geomancy influences (ley lines, filtering etc) which normally produce the background count aren't present in this case. You have a single unadulterated source. (maybe we could do feng shui surgery on it and rearrange it's organs).

That's what I've been saying; you'd have to do some body modifications, like piercing, branding, tattooing, and all of it would have to match your tradition. Refer to my paragraphical story a few posts ago.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's what I've been saying; you'd have to do some body modifications, like piercing, branding, tattooing, and all of it would have to match your tradition. Refer to my paragraphical story a few posts ago.

However, You are still trying to take a Negative Quality and make it into a Positive Quality... I call foul...

[Draco18s]

That much said... if I make a quadriplegic elf w/ this as a 6/6 contact... put it in a full VR lifestyle. Then raise up a cult around it. That count will surely expand every year and it won't move. Now if I craft the tradition correctly, it is aspected to the tradition. I did this in another thread a while back... it comes out to something like a few km a year.

At 1 mile radius a month...
(See earlier post)

12 years to reach Portland, if the elf is in Seattle
80 years to reach LA.
200 years to reach New York.
400 years to reach London.
1037 years to cover the whole world, assuming the haze expands along the surface of the planet. 660 if we assume it travels through the ground as well (above numbers, such as London, would be impacted due to the distance across the sphere being longer than the chord distance).
19485 years to "touch" the moon (estimate assuming the closest distance the moon is to earth, and counting from those two closest points).

[Falconer]

Hence why I said it'd require some serious feng shui rearranging your internal organs.

No mere cosmetic detailing for you... said reorganization is probably fatal btw.

Also, your idea isn't new, search... back when it was first published, I pointed out this exact thing as an explicit abuse of a negative quality.

[Neraph]

Ok, so we have 2 cases of people saying "no because its too powerful" as opposed to "no because of sound rules-based arguments."

For example, just because this is possible doesn't mean the person is immune to magic. Lone Star's magic division would jump on this "magical terrorism" in a heartbeat. Rival mages attempting to capture the person in question, keep them sedated, and use their aura. Drones.

There are in-game responses that don't make this break the game.

No mere cosmetic detailing for you... said reorganization is probably fatal btw.

I highly doubt that, since, first off, if just building a teepee on a field is enough, than a simple tattoo is enough for your body, and two, that if people can have their brain removed from their body and survive, I think the doctors would be able to work rearranging some organs around as well.

[Draco18s]

Ok, so we have 2 cases of people saying "no because its too powerful" as opposed to "no because of sound rules-based arguments."

We've already quoted the only slightly related rules that there are on this subject, and you think that a few (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) worth of tatoos and body piercings are enough to turn a highly detrimental flaw ("I'm a magician who has an effective 0 or 1 magic, but fortunately, I'm otherwise immune to spells") into the outright most over powered positive quality to ever exist ("I am a magician who has an effective magic that rivals great dragons, and I'm still immune to everyone else's magic").

Cost to do this? 10 karma (or 1 third the cost to buy off the flaw).

[Neraph]

Cost to do this? 10 karma (or 1 third the cost to buy off the flaw).

Acutally, it's 29 karma for initiating twice, and another 75 karma, or the cost of raising a 6 Magic to an 8. So for a total of 99 karma, or over three times the cost of buying off the negative quality, you can turn it into a positive quality. Because remember, you have to be able to "cast" Force 8 Ritual spells in order to do the ritual at all, and assuming you're starting at a Magic 6, you'd need to Initiate twice and raise your magic stat to an 8, because until you geomance the domain your Magic rating is at -4.

Not to mention the time and resources in-game.

So, in short, yes, I think that for paying more than three times the cost of just removing a negative quality you can actually do something to make it beneficial.

EDIT: That's assuming you don't have help Initiating, otherwise the cost might drop a whole 7 points or so, down to 92.

[Draco18s]

Because remember, you have to be able to "cast" Force 8 Ritual spells in order to do the ritual at all

Point to where it says you must be capable of casting a force 8 spell. Geomancy says, "treat the geomantic ritual as if she were casting a spell with Force equal to twice the BC." I see no mention of needing to have magic high enough to actually cast the spell. It's treated as a force 8 spell, it isn't a force 8 spell.

EDIT: That's assuming you don't have help Initiating, otherwise the cost might drop a whole 7 points or so, down to 92.

And add 5 for becoming part of a magical group. 97.

[Neraph]

Point to where it says you must be capable of casting a force 8 spell. Geomancy says, "treat the geomantic ritual as if she were casting a spell with Force equal to twice the BC." I see no mention of needing to have magic high enough to actually cast the spell. It's treated as a force 8 spell, it isn't a force 8 spell.

If you treat it as casting a F8 spell, then you'd need a magic of at least 4 to be allowed to effectively overcast the F8 "spell". Otherwise, what does "treat the geomantic ritual as if she were casting a spell with Force equal to twice the BC" mean?

And add 5 for becoming part of a magical group. 97.

For one, that would only make it slightly less difficult, if you lose 7 points of requirement but gain 5, you'd end up 2 less. But I was referring to ordeals. Sorry about not being clear about it.

For example, take a Geasa and a Sacrifice, and initiating your 2 points becomes easier. You could also say that that one point of Sacrifice is directly related to the Geomantic re-arranging of the player's character. Or make them take two Sacrifices in order to represent it.

But basically, it comes down to using Geomancy to aspect Astral Hazing into a bonus takes a lot more work than just buying it off.

It seems like you're starting to argue for argument's sake. First you don't want to be able to geomancy at all, and now you're arguing about the process to actually do it.

[Draco18s]

If you treat it as casting a F8 spell, then you'd need a magic of at least 4 to be allowed to effectively overcast the F8 "spell". Otherwise, what does "treat the geomantic ritual as if she were casting a spell with Force equal to twice the BC" mean?

Other people can help.

Limit on how many people can be involved.

Here's a better idea (before I admit that you're right), and one that's far more karma friendly:

Get someone else to aspect your domain. Any rules against that? Any geomancer can do it....

[Neraph]

Here's a better idea (before I admit that you're right)

It'll only hurt for a second.

Get someone else to aspect your domain. Any rules against that? Any geomancer can do it....

You could, but if you do it yourself, and prove why you can with the rules (as I have), your GM can't just do something like "You don't find anyone to help you geomance your Astral Hazing." For self-reliance, mostly. And because if you foot the bill yourself, your GM is more willing to go through with it.

Also, the geomancer in question would have to be the same tradition as yourself, otherwise it'd be worse than just having Astral Hazing. Imagine a shaman getting a mage to geomance hims AH, only to find out that it only works with Hermetics now. Now nearly every run that involves wage-mages will turn into a slaughterfest against the poor guy.

[thearistocrat]

Other people can help.

Limit on how many people can be involved.

Here's a better idea (before I admit that you're right), and one that's far more karma friendly:

Get someone else to aspect your domain. Any rules against that? Any geomancer can do it....

How would someone else be able to aspect your own personal domain for you? That strikes me as a rule-bending a bit too far for many GMs.

[Draco18s]

How would someone else be able to aspect your own personal domain for you? That strikes me as a rule-bending a bit too far for many GMs.

Why not? Imagine sitting down in one place for a month and covering a 1 mile diameter area of a city. I bet every corp that has mages would get pissed off REAL fast and try and aspect the domain encroaching on their building so it doesn't effect them.

If they can do it, then why couldn't you hire someone to do it for you?

Heck, you might even be able to get your chummer over there to do it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I must be missing something here... Negative Qualities are just that... NEGATIVE... You should not ever be able to turn the negative to a positive... if you want to go that route... buy off the negative quality, initiate a few times and get Geomancy, and then aspect yourself a positive BC aftarwards... you should not EVER be able to do so while the negative quality is in place...

Want to have a positive benefit from BC, craft it yourself with Geomancy, but don't buy the negative quality and then "aspect" it to a positivbe bonus... To this, I call foul...

Of Course... that is my 2 nuyen, but really, does this not smack anyone else as powergaming at its finest?

[Draco18s]

I must be missing something here... Negative Qualities are just that... NEGATIVE... You should not ever be able to turn the negative to a positive...

That's my feeling as well. The only true positive nature of astral hazing is that magic doesn't work on you, at all. This does keep you alive when mages start tossing fireballs (and my group did make heavy use of the one character's immunity on at least one occasion) but you also can't be buffed or healed by magic either. He was a non-mage, so it wasn't as twinkish.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's my feeling as well. The only true positive nature of astral hazing is that magic doesn't work on you, at all. This does keep you alive when mages start tossing fireballs (and my group did make heavy use of the one character's immunity on at least one occasion) but you also can't be buffed or healed by magic either. He was a non-mage, so it wasn't as twinkish.

I never read it a never affecting you at all, but you do get the benefits of that magic being reduced by the Hazing... it is heavily balanced out by not being able to truly benefit from the positive applications of magic though, yeah...

[Mäx]

Why not? Imagine sitting down in one place for a month and covering a 1 mile diameter area of a city. I bet every corp that has mages would get pissed off REAL fast and try and aspect the domain encroaching on their building so it doesn't effect them.

NAh, they would just track you down and kill you or "volunteer" you for some "completly harmles" expiriments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I really don't think that it's a good idea to stay in one place for long if you have astrall hazing.

[Draco18s]

you do get the benefits of that magic being reduced by the Hazing...

That's what I meant, really. -4 force is nasty. God forbid the caster is inside your emenation area too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's what I meant, really. -4 force is nasty. God forbid the caster is inside your emenation area too.

Oh No... MUCH WORSE THAN THAT... It is a -4 to Magic Rating... Much Worse...
Whether he is inside or outside from the way I read it... it reduces the effect of the spell by reducing the Magical Attribute, not the force of the Spell, that is cast into the area of BC...

Unless I have completely read it wrong

[Mäx]

That's what I meant, really. -4 force is nasty. God forbid the caster is inside your emenation area too.

Thats why the saying goes
"Good combat mage can kill you with a mere thought, great one knows when to use his trusty predator instead"
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Umbra]

Actually, upon secondary reading of that myself, that is not what that line of text says. It talks about the ambient mana conditions returning to normal after the cyberzombie leaves. If the CZ has an aspected BC to onions, then that onion BC will fade when he leaves, not onions will fade from his BC.



So you can still Geomancy Astral Hazing, given enough time and preparation, because it is treated as a BC. The only thing that makes it different from normal BC is the fact that it follows you around and grows when you stop.

My point was that after the Cyberzombie has left, the condition of overriding the ambient mana conditions goes with him. I got the impression that the now fading Astral Hazing he has left behind does not carry the quality of overriding local ambient mana conditions, and should be treated as a normal aspected domain. (But one aspected towards no known style of magic.) This domain is fading away at the rate of one point per day, so only on the last day could you perform the Geomancy Ritual, to get almost 20 hours of a rating 1 domain aspected towards your style of magic.

And yes, given enough time and preparation you could reaspect the domain of a cyberzombie even while he's still within the domain, you just need to do a ritual that takes about 4 hours, wait one month, do the ritual again, do it 2 more times over the next 2 months, and then have the Astral Hazing again instantly change the aspect back.

Normal domains don't have a special rule about overriding anything you do to change the aspect of a background count. Astral Hazing does have that rule.


Now lets assume that you or your GM says that if the aspect of an Astral Hazing could be changed, and that the overriding ability of an Astral Hazing
to set things back now instantly changes the domain back to your style from now on...

Quoting Street Magic:

"This ritual must successfully be completed once each lunar month (28 days) for a number of months in a row equal to the site’s background count for the aspecting to become permanent. Until that time, the background count retains its original aspect."

This implies that you can indeed take 4 months to reaspect a Astral Hazing Domain. But...

"To ensure that the imprinted mana does not dissipate between rituals, and to maintain an aspect once changed, it is necessary to ensure the site itself observes the geomantic lore of the initiate’s tradition. If the site does not already correspond to such criteria (an ancient stone circle would correspond
to the Druidic tradition’s criteria, but not a wujen’s feng shui), the site may need to be “re-sculpted.� This may require altering the immediate landscape, constructing a building from scratch, rearranging the furniture, performing regular religious observances, or offering sacrifices to local spirits. The nature and extent of each tradition’s criteria are left to the gamemaster to define as appropriate to the situation."

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I can't quite imagine a magical tradition that has Geomantic lore involving having a Cyberzombie polluting Astral Space sitting in the middle of your ritual clubhouse. Well no magical tradition besides the ones on those horrible Disney TV shows the kids are watching while we're trying to play Shadowrun. I mean talk about toxic!

[Draco18s]

Oh No... MUCH WORSE THAN THAT... It is a -4 to Magic Rating... Much Worse...
Unless I have completely read it wrong

-4 force for casting into your area. Worse if they are inside the area as well in which case, it's -4 magic AND -4 force.

[toturi]

I must be missing something here... Negative Qualities are just that... NEGATIVE... You should not ever be able to turn the negative to a positive... if you want to go that route... buy off the negative quality, initiate a few times and get Geomancy, and then aspect yourself a positive BC aftarwards... you should not EVER be able to do so while the negative quality is in place...

Want to have a positive benefit from BC, craft it yourself with Geomancy, but don't buy the negative quality and then "aspect" it to a positivbe bonus... To this, I call foul...

Of Course... that is my 2 nuyen, but really, does this not smack anyone else as powergaming at its finest?

Negative Qualities is just that. Those qualities are called Negative Qualities, they do not necessarily need to be negative. Everything can be a weapon and be made to serve you if you know how to make it, and everything can be made to hurt you, if your enemies know how.

By my reading of RAW, I do not think that Geomancy can work with Astral Hazing of either form, however, but I think I can see how a GM might read it such that it can be.

[McAllister]

I'm not sure what to think. The negative quality Gremlins is VERY VERY SPECIFIC that it is NOT in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM something to be used as a weapon. Is that A. a comment on dev thinking about negative qualities, or B. a specific exception to the principal Toturi is suggesting?

[toturi]

I'm not sure what to think. The negative quality Gremlins is VERY VERY SPECIFIC that it is NOT in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM something to be used as a weapon. Is that A. a comment on dev thinking about negative qualities, or B. a specific exception to the principal Toturi is suggesting?

Perhaps weapon was not the best way to describe it but the idea was that you could figure out some way to make the quality work for you or at least not work against you. You could engineer a win-win situation for the case of Gremlins, if it kicks in, great, if it doesn't kick in, great too. Then whatever it does, it works for you.

[Draco18s]

Perhaps weapon was not the best way to describe it but the idea was that you could figure out some way to make the quality work for you or at least not work against you. You could engineer a win-win situation for the case of Gremlins, if it kicks in, great, if it doesn't kick in, great too. Then whatever it does, it works for you.

I think what they mean is that a character with gremlins who attempts to use a control console to a nuclear reactor, in an attempt to make it go critical would merely short out the control panel, thus screwing themselves.

The idea is that you can't interact with technology in a way where you intend to break it in such a way to be beneficial to you: no matter what you're trying to do, the gremlins interfere.

[dirkformica]

/Hijack
What happens when a Magician with Astral Hazing astrally projects? Does the emanation stay at the body or does it follow the projecting mage?

[Draco18s]

/Hijack
What happens when a Magician with Astral Hazing astrally projects? Does the emanation stay at the body or does it follow the projecting mage?

Oooh...good question. Based on the fluff, I'd say it "goes astral" and follows him. It'd only mess up Astral Space (astral mages would encounter a background count, physical wouldn't unless they're astrally perceiving).

[toturi]

I think what they mean is that a character with gremlins who attempts to use a control console to a nuclear reactor, in an attempt to make it go critical would merely short out the control panel, thus screwing themselves.

The idea is that you can't interact with technology in a way where you intend to break it in such a way to be beneficial to you: no matter what you're trying to do, the gremlins interfere.

The idea is it doesn't matter what your character is actually trying to do, as long as the gremlins interfere, the result whatever it may be will be beneficial to your PC instead. The difficulty is lies in finding such a situation or engineering such.

[Neraph]

I must be missing something here... Negative Qualities are just that... NEGATIVE... You should not ever be able to turn the negative to a positive... if you want to go that route... buy off the negative quality, initiate a few times and get Geomancy, and then aspect yourself a positive BC aftarwards... you should not EVER be able to do so while the negative quality is in place...

Want to have a positive benefit from BC, craft it yourself with Geomancy, but don't buy the negative quality and then "aspect" it to a positivbe bonus... To this, I call foul...

Of Course... that is my 2 nuyen, but really, does this not smack anyone else as powergaming at its finest?

See, the thing is, you end up spending 99 karma (if you don't use initiatory ordeals or join an initiation group [not worth it]), so yeah, pretty much you're allowed to. Especially since you follow the RAW very closely.

Compare 99 karma to geomance it to your tradition to the 30 karma to remove it. You pay just over 3x the cost for a benefit. Sounds good to me.

Not to mention that now that you are a moving domain, you're now hunted. Or that someone could mess up the ritual. You mess up one ritual you have to start over. Just because after 99 karma you're able to start geomancing yourself doesn't mean that you'll succeed.

[Draco18s]

Not to mention that now that you are a moving domain, you're now hunted. Or that someone could mess up the ritual. You mess up one ritual you have to start over. Just because after 99 karma you're able to start geomancing yourself doesn't mean that you'll succeed.

You can't mess up. You'd have to critically glitch the ritual check in order to actually move backwards.

If someone else starts aspecting your domain too, then whoever scores more hits gets progress that month. I doubt it makes a difference as to who gets to 4 months first. The book doesn't say what happens when someone finishes aspecting it and the other person continues. I would assume that they'd get knocked back to 0, but....

[Neraph]

You can't mess up. You'd have to critically glitch the ritual check in order to actually move backwards.

If someone else starts aspecting your domain too, then whoever scores more hits gets progress that month. I doubt it makes a difference as to who gets to 4 months first. The book doesn't say what happens when someone finishes aspecting it and the other person continues. I would assume that they'd get knocked back to 0, but....

Excellent point. If you fail the test 1/month without critically glitching, you just stall progress. Thank you for challenging me on that point.

[Neraph]

See, the thing is, you end up spending 99 karma (if you don't use initiatory ordeals or join an initiation group [not worth it]), so yeah, pretty much you're allowed to. Especially since you follow the RAW very closely.

Compare 99 karma to geomance it to your tradition to the 30 karma to remove it. You pay just over 3x the cost for a benefit. Sounds good to me.

Not to mention that now that you are a moving domain, you're now hunted. Or that someone could mess up the ritual. You mess up one ritual you have to start over. Just because after 99 karma you're able to start geomancing yourself doesn't mean that you'll succeed.

My math was off.

Final, correct numbers are thus:

Initiate 2, Raise Magic from 6 to 8 = 104 karma.

If Ordeals are done = 99.

If Ordeals are done and you joined an Initiatory Group = 98.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My math was off.

Final, correct numbers are thus:

Initiate 2, Raise Magic from 6 to 8 = 104 karma.

If Ordeals are done = 99.

If Ordeals are done and you joined an Initiatory Group = 98.

Seems to me that your math is still off... only a Single point difference between Ordeals Only and Ordeals with a Group? Something does not scan correctly...

Initiate Twice: 13+16 = 29
Magic 6 to 8: 35+40 = 75
Total 104

Ordeal Costs: 11+13 (Discount of 5 Points) for a Total of 99 Karma...
Ordeal + Group Costs: 8+10 (Discount of 11 Points) for a Total of 93 Karma...

There you go...

And even though you are spending 3x Karma to obtain positive effect from a negative quality... it is still wrong, you should NEVER gain a positive benefit from a negative quality, kind of defeats the purpose of the negative quality don't you think?

You should purchase the Negative quality off first... if you still wanted the benefit of a rating 4 moveable background count... THEN you could find some way to create such though geomancy and initiation...

Just Saying...

Keep the Faith

[Stahlseele]

You need to factor in the Karma to join a Group first.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You need to factor in the Karma to join a Group first.

Oooooops, Forgot about that....

[Stahlseele]

's okay, most people do.

[Neraph]

Yeah, I remembered the 5 karma from joining the group, but I didn't annotate it.

And even though you are spending 3x Karma to obtain positive effect from a negative quality... it is still wrong, you should NEVER gain a positive benefit from a negative quality, kind of defeats the purpose of the negative quality don't you think?

You should purchase the Negative quality off first... if you still wanted the benefit of a rating 4 moveable background count... THEN you could find some way to create such though geomancy and initiation...

Just Saying...

Keep the Faith

Except that, as I've shown, Geomancing Astral Hazing is completely legal by RAW, and even hinted at by RAI, and there currently exists no ability through Initiation to create a mobile Backround Count. It costs a whole lot of karma to pull this off, not to mention the time required. Also, it should be noted that opposing mages, from not only the Geo-As/Ha mage's own tradition, but others as well, now have perfect reason to capture the Geo-As/Ha and feed off his BC. Or they don't like the idea of it, thinking its "unnatural", and hiring Prime Runners to assassinate them. Or drones. Just because you have BC 4 and are very effective against other mages and spirits doesn't mean your neccessarily any better against drones, especially if you don't know they're there.

A sniper can still kill a mage before he even knows the sniper is there. It's really easy too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, I remembered the 5 karma from joining the group, but I didn't annotate it.

Except that, as I've shown, Geomancing Astral Hazing is completely legal by RAW, and even hinted at by RAI, and there currently exists no ability through Initiation to create a mobile Backround Count. It costs a whole lot of karma to pull this off, not to mention the time required. Also, it should be noted that opposing mages, from not only the Geo-As/Ha mage's own tradition, but others as well, now have perfect reason to capture the Geo-As/Ha and feed off his BC. Or they don't like the idea of it, thinking its "unnatural", and hiring Prime Runners to assassinate them. Or drones. Just because you have BC 4 and are very effective against other mages and spirits doesn't mean your neccessarily any better against drones, especially if you don't know they're there.

A sniper can still kill a mage before he even knows the sniper is there. It's really easy too.

There is no doubt the Astrally Hazing character will become a massive pawn in everyones games... No doubt... It is just MY Opinion that the reasons for this should be story related... Turning a Negative Quality into a Positive Quality goes against everything that the Negative Quality stands for... Yes, you spend a lot of Karma to do so... but Still, it feels wrong...

And yes, It is extremely easy to kill a mage, or anyone for that matter, with a Sniper... It is not even a real challenge, assuming the Sniper is patient and competent...