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McAllister
Two questions about Astral Hazing.

First; it says that it's a rating 4 background count (no mention of mana ebbs or negative counts, so I'm going to assume positive) that's tainted by darker emotions. Is there any way to use this to my advantage? I'm sure "darker emotions" describes most blood magicians' practices. Could I take up blood magic, use it for really twisted stuff, and get 4 added to my magic instead of subtracted? Or maybe just get the bonus if I'm using magic while feeling particularly emotionally tormented? If that were so, I'd be more than willing to pay for it as if it were a positive quality.

Also, how does it interact with metamagics? Can I Cleanse it, or aspect it towards my own tradition with Geomancy?
Machiavelli
First: you can´t play twisted mages
Second: acc. to RAW you should be able to cleanse it...for a while. Geomancy? Why not, if the GM allows it, everything is possible. But UNTIL you are an intiate and have this 2 metatechniques, you will be f***ed up quite bad. At least, no spells harm you.^^
Ravor
Actually, the rules for Blood Mages aren't really that bad, but Toxics are alittle incomplete.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jul 15 2009, 07:44 AM) *
Is there any way to use this to my advantage?

Sure.

It overrides the ambient mana levels - meaning you will always be at BGC 4, no matter if in deep space or a toxic wasteland.
Also, anything magical not featuring force or magic will work just fine, like defensive Counterspelling and Banishing for Attack of Will.

Given that anyone in close combat with you will not only lose 4 magic/force (even of their weapon foci), but also their domain advantage, you really should train unarmed combat and MAs. In fact, if a spirit is Force 4 or lower, you just have to reach it to disrupt it.

But, basically, you can cast Magic in Space! (And any mage hanging arround can so, too.) How Awesome is that?
Of course, if your GM allows you (or others...) to use Geomancy on yourself, things will go crazy from there...
KCKitsune
Does anyone else here think that a mage with Astral Hazing can cast magic in space? I'm thinking that it would not. The reason for my belief is that it violates one of the rules of magic.
Rotbart van Dainig
Actually, that fact is based on the rules of magic, especially those in Street Magic concerning the mana level.
thearistocrat
QUOTE (Ravor @ Jul 15 2009, 07:39 AM) *
Actually, the rules for Blood Mages aren't really that bad, but Toxics are alittle incomplete.


Blood Mage Rule 1: Player Characters can never learn blood magic or be blood mages.

Blood Mage Rule 2-100: Consult rule 1.
Machiavelli
Even i as an absolutely PG accept this. Follow me.^^
toturi
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 15 2009, 03:50 PM) *
Does anyone else here think that a mage with Astral Hazing can cast magic in space? I'm thinking that it would not. The reason for my belief is that it violates one of the rules of magic.

By RAW, I think it does. In fact, I had suggested a variant of this in one of the discussions some time back - instead of the mage having Astral Hazing, the Street Sam or the Technomancer of the group take it and provide a fallback, bedrock position for the Awakened members to retreat to.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jul 15 2009, 07:44 AM) *
Also, how does it interact with metamagics? Can I Cleanse it, or aspect it towards my own tradition with Geomancy?


Doc's guide to powergaming:

First step: Cleanse your own BC
Second step: Channel it and get 4 bonus dice

biggrin.gif
Stahlseele
If that really worked you would have a more or less permanent version of aspected mana static force 4 without any bad points for you . . so no, i don't think it works that way . . of course, if you can bribe your GM into allowing this kind of sillyness, more power to you . . literally ^^
Doc Byte
Just one word: P.o.w.e.r.g.a.m.i.n.g™
McAllister
Thank you all for your contributions.

The "can you use magic in space" question is quite interesting! Now, the description of Astral Hazing refers to it as a mana domain, which means there's more mana available in it than "default" (bg count 0). The problem is that it's aspected, so most magicians receive a penalty. For use in space, I'd just go with adding 4 to the negative count; for example, -9 would become -5, which means you'd stand a chance of stunballing a devil rat. It's like your negative emotion-emitting brain is trying to light up a dark football stadium with a flashlight, only the stadium is space and the light is mana.

And with regards to blood mages, I can play them. I mean that in the sense that nothing in the books explicitly states they're not to be used for player characters, and all the necessary rules are provided. That said, WHY should I follow TheAristocrat's rules 1-100 and never ever play a blood mage?

Also, a quote, Street Magic, pg 136: "Where the line is drawn (if at all) is left to the individual gamemaster and his group."
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Jul 15 2009, 03:58 PM) *
Just one word: P.o.w.e.r.g.a.m.i.n.g™

QUOTE (Tim Taylor @ Jul 15 2009, 03:58 PM) *
MOOREE POOWEER!
DireRadiant
If it doesn't hamper you, it is not a Negative Quality.
Rotbart van Dainig
Have you seen some of the "positive" Qualities? Like Escaped Clone?
Draco18s
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jul 15 2009, 10:00 AM) *
The "can you use magic in space" question is quite interesting! Now, the description of Astral Hazing refers to it as a mana domain, which means there's more mana available in it than "default" (bg count 0). The problem is that it's aspected, so most magicians receive a penalty. For use in space, I'd just go with adding 4 to the negative count; for example, -9 would become -5, which means you'd stand a chance of stunballing a devil rat. It's like your negative emotion-emitting brain is trying to light up a dark football stadium with a flashlight, only the stadium is space and the light is mana.


I don't think Astral Hazing will ever raise a mana deficient zone to higher mana levels, such as outer space not having a -12 BGC.

The way I think about Astral Hazing is that you have a permanent area of aspected domain of mana around you. It is aspected towards You, not your tradition, but aspected You. Meaning that no one may ever gain the positive benefits of the BGC.
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
QUOTE (thearistocrat @ Jul 15 2009, 09:10 AM) *
Blood Mage Rule 1: Player Characters can never learn blood magic or be blood mages.

Blood Mage Rule 2-100: Consult rule 1.

Depends on your GM and how you do it. I played a blood mage who was taught the Sacrifice metamagic by malevolent trickster spirit. My character hated himself, and nearly killed himself overcasting each run. I only got to use blood magic once though.

It worked out pretty well.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 15 2009, 06:31 PM) *
I don't think Astral Hazing will ever raise a mana deficient zone to higher mana levels, such as outer space not having a -12 BGC.

The way I think about Astral Hazing is that you have a permanent area of aspected domain of mana around you. It is aspected towards You, not your tradition, but aspected You. Meaning that no one may ever gain the positive benefits of the BGC.

not even yourself? O.o
Neraph
QUOTE (thearistocrat @ Jul 15 2009, 02:10 AM) *
Blood Mage Rule 1: Player Characters can never learn blood magic or be blood mages.

Blood Mage Rule 2-100: Consult rule 1.

Ahem.

QUOTE (Street Magic, page 138, Playing the Twisted Sidebar)
That said, allowing player characters to follow twisted paths may provide a unique challenge to gamemasters and players willing to explore mature and potentially disturbing characters and themes in their campaign.


QUOTE (Street Magic, page 139, Blood Magic)
It is strongly advised that twisted metamagics remain the province of NPC's. Player characters should not have access to these powers unless the gamemaster allows them to become twisted.
(emphasis added)

"Strongly advised" and "should" mean "might" and "possibly". All twisted metamagics are left up to GM discretion, but twisted archetypes are completely fine. IE: getting Sacrifice metamagic I would have to let my GM allow me; playing a 'necromancer' my GM shouldn't disallow (honestly, all you need is a posession tradition and the Preserve spell. Easy).

QUOTE
The way I think about Astral Hazing is that you have a permanent area of aspected domain of mana around you. It is aspected towards You, not your tradition, but aspected You. Meaning that no one may ever gain the positive benefits of the BGC.

The way I always saw it is that you carry around a r4 backround count. It would interact in all other ways as backround count. It would overwrite other positive count that is lesser than itself.

And technically, since the text says it is "an aspected domain in her own right", that begs the question; aspected to what? Even the text for cyberzombies, which Astral Hazing points to, states "the cyberzombie becomes a domain in her own right", implying that it is aspected for itself (albeit adding 4 dice to a 1 Magic, not very useful). However, if it truely acted as BC does, then all CZs would die, every time (having their Magic 1 reduced by their own BC...).
thearistocrat
The Aztlan Sourcebook got blood magic right the first time, Magic in the Shadows / SR4 be damned.

"Gamemasters should note that rules for blood magic and conjuring blood spirits apply ONLY to non-player characters.
No player character can EVER become a blood mage or conjure blood spirits: only the villialns they may face (if they're particularly unlucky) can do such things." [no emphasis added]

From a game-breaking, NPC-restricted domain with a personal 1,000,000 nuyen bounty from the Dragon's Will to "oh yeah, that blood mage can totally go on runs with us."
Adarael
I would welcome any PC blood mage into my party. And then I would welcome the million dollars his ass would fetch after I sold him to DIMR!
thearistocrat
QUOTE (Adarael @ Jul 15 2009, 07:36 PM) *
I would welcome any PC blood mage into my party. And then I would welcome the million dollars his ass would fetch after I sold him to DIMR!


The problem is that he has to be alive, and your .3 essence street samurai is already running in the other direction.
Mäx
QUOTE (thearistocrat @ Jul 15 2009, 10:29 PM) *
From a game-breaking, NPC-restricted domain with a personal 1,000,000 nuyen bounty from the Dragon's Will to "oh yeah, that blood mage can totally go on runs with us."

Maybe the runner team is working for DIMR, rest of the team are payed by the DIMR to go in runs with their blood mage.
Adarael
Man, what? My .3 essence Samurai could sucker-punch his ass cold and then keep him in sense-dep, drugged to the gills.
At least, a halfway decent Samurai could knock him out with a sucker attack.

(Actually, my longest running game DID have a blood mage who was reformed and on the run from the Azzies. Init grade 3, with Sacrificing, Channeling, Invoking. It was godawful. I still think my Hermetic could take him, though. Centering, Quickening, Shielding, Psychometry ftw.)
Draco18s
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 15 2009, 01:34 PM) *
The way I always saw it is that you carry around a r4 backround count. It would interact in all other ways as backround count. It would overwrite other positive count that is lesser than itself.

And technically, since the text says it is "an aspected domain in her own right", that begs the question; aspected to what?


I haven't read up on cyberzombies, but "aspected domain in her own right" I have always taken to mean that it's aspected towards the character, but that the character's tradition (or whatever) never matches the character. "Jessy who has astral hazing has an aura of Jessy Domain, but Jessy doesn't practice Jessy Magic, she practices Bear Magic."
Stahlseele
OK, that would be one way of looking at it . . the other being that magic in Sr depends on what the user wants it to be . .
It WOULD give Psionists a nice little boost, as they believe their magic to be completeley their own power, nothing magical.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 15 2009, 05:08 PM) *
OK, that would be one way of looking at it . . the other being that magic in Sr depends on what the user wants it to be . .
It WOULD give Psionists a nice little boost, as they believe their magic to be completeley their own power, nothing magical.


Spirits would also have to have a whole nother set of rules then, as well. How would a psionic justify being able to conjure a mental projection (or whatever they think it is) that's smarter than he is?
Stahlseele
I think the Psionics can only do some limited conjouring, if any at all . . am at work, no books.
And i still think the aspected astral hazing would be scary.
Draco18s
Street Magic:
QUOTE
These days, psionics is considered a quaint and outdated
paradigm by the wider magical community; a flawed understanding
of magic being gradually eroded by its own inability
to explain many of the everyday realities and accept the fundamental
conventions of modern thaumaturgy. Nonetheless,
die-hard psionics persist, denouncing so-called “magical traditions�
and their esoteric teachings as superstitious hocuspocus
clouding the truth—that all “magic� is actually an expression
of the power of the metahuman mind and will.


Which covers anything I can find on psions. Psionic doesn't actually exist as a tradition as far as I can find.
phantom
psionics is covered more in digital grimoire. Basically, it's a possession tradition that call's its spirits thought-forms
Neraph
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 16 2009, 11:09 AM) *
Spirits would also have to have a whole nother set of rules then, as well. How would a psionic justify being able to conjure a mental projection (or whatever they think it is) that's smarter than he is?

The communal subconsious. You "summon" the communal subconsious, which is evidently smarter than yourself.
Meatbag
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 16 2009, 05:23 PM) *
The communal subconsious. You "summon" the communal subconsious, which is evidently smarter than yourself.



On this topic, I found it particularly irksome that psionics can't take Mentor Spirits, explicitly.

If they think the Astral Plane == Collective Unconsciousness, which is about the only way it would make any damn sense, then particularly archetypal ideas would gain some truly amazing power.
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 15 2009, 05:06 PM) *
I haven't read up on cyberzombies, but "aspected domain in her own right" I have always taken to mean that it's aspected towards the character, but that the character's tradition (or whatever) never matches the character. "Jessy who has astral hazing has an aura of Jessy Domain, but Jessy doesn't practice Jessy Magic, she practices Bear Magic."


THIS is an awsome way to look at it (and explain it).

Btw, WTF psionics can't take Mentors? Collective Unconscious, Archtypes? Hello? ohplease.gif
Machiavelli
Yeah, "Jessy´s Magic"....good point. Never thought of it this way. Why? Hmmm...because the rules are clear.^^
Stahlseele
They are?
Where?
KCKitsune
I think that they should have left out the whole Psionic tradition all together. That way, if Catalyst wanted to they could introduce it as a new power type. I mean they already have Psionic people in Shadowrun... Technomancers. They are not magical, their Powers work in space, what ELSE could they be?
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jul 17 2009, 12:50 AM) *
Yeah, "Jessy´s Magic"....good point. Never thought of it this way. Why? Hmmm...because the rules are clear.^^


What are you ,making reference to. OR, to state it more eloquently...

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 17 2009, 02:15 AM) *
They are?
Where?


Moving on:

QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 17 2009, 02:25 AM) *
I think that they should have left out the whole Psionic tradition all together. That way, if Catalyst wanted to they could introduce it as a new power type. I mean they already have Psionic people in Shadowrun... Technomancers. They are not magical, their Powers work in space, what ELSE could they be?


And their powers come from their brains, man! (Not a bad answer, btw. Technomancers can't do alot of things that psionics traditionally are attributed with (psionics and magic have alot of overlap ability wise), but Shadowrun isn't our world, so I can see your arguement. Who knows, maybe someday Technomancers will be able to hack the human body. One never knows.)
KCKitsune
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Jul 17 2009, 09:36 AM) *
And their powers come from their brains, man! (Not a bad answer, btw. Technomancers can't do alot of things that psionics traditionally are attributed with (psionics and magic have alot of overlap ability wise), but Shadowrun isn't our world, so I can see your arguement. Who knows, maybe someday Technomancers will be able to hack the human body. One never knows.)


The "hack the human body" power would be telepathy. grinbig.gif

Heck, I wrote up rules (with the help of paws2sky) for Psionics in Shadowrun. The powers were somewhat like mages, but limited. If anybody is interested I'll send them to you.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Jul 17 2009, 02:36 PM) *
What are you ,making reference to. OR, to state it more eloquently...

If one thing is absolutely clear, then it is that you get 4 magic points subtracted. So what else do you have to know? It is interesting to know for who the aspected domain counts, but that it counts against you, is perfectly clear. The BC is fed from your own dark emotions, so you practically f**ck yourself.^^
Neraph
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 15 2009, 04:06 PM) *
I haven't read up on cyberzombies, but "aspected domain in her own right" I have always taken to mean that it's aspected towards the character, but that the character's tradition (or whatever) never matches the character. "Jessy who has astral hazing has an aura of Jessy Domain, but Jessy doesn't practice Jessy Magic, she practices Bear Magic."

That's a great point, but that still doesn't remove the ability of Geomancy. Geomancy changes the domain's aspect to that of you geomancer's own tradition.

Granted, being in BC 4 until you can initiate would severely hurt, but it'd only hurt for a little bit.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 17 2009, 11:48 AM) *
That's a great point, but that still doesn't remove the ability of Geomancy. Geomancy changes the domain's aspect to that of you geomancer's own tradition.

Granted, being in BC 4 until you can initiate would severely hurt, but it'd only hurt for a little bit.


True. Geomancy might work, I'll have to take a look at it.

However, shooting from the hip I'd say that it doesn't only because the BC area grows over time (it's roughly 8 to 12m in diameter after having slept (edit: 4-6m). Due to that factor, you could aspect the domain, but it would only reduce the radius down to 0 and then start growing normally. If you're out and moving around, then you have to aspect the very ground you walk on continuously. That is, the geomancer aspecting wouldn't be mobile.

Edit:
Geomancy of a BC 4 area takes four lunar months. It's also very specifically a fixed location, as the site must have the right "feng shui" depending on the caster's tradition.

You could probably aspect your living area such that at home your Astral Hazing acts as a benefit, or at least a null zone (+4 local, -4 personal), but geomancy works over time, Astral Hazing works now (1 meter ever 2-3 hours, so not quite as far as I stated for sleeping. Ritual Sorcery (Geomancy uses these rules) also takes 12 hours to do, so the astral hazed area has expanded by 4 meters in radius just in the time it takes you to perform one ritual!
Neraph
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 17 2009, 11:14 AM) *
True. Geomancy might work, I'll have to take a look at it.

However, shooting from the hip I'd say that it doesn't only because the BC area grows over time (it's roughly 8 to 12m in diameter (?) after having slept. Due to that factor, you could aspect the domain, but it would only reduce the radius down to 0 and then start growing normally. If you're out and moving around, then you have to aspect the very ground you walk on continuously. That is, the geomancer aspecting wouldn't be mobile.

You don't geomancy the area, you geomancy the backround count. Since your backround count is mobile, you're geomancied BC would be, too. Or, to try and explain it a different way, geomancy works with aspecting the mana flow, and since you're mana flow is you, and you don't restart your mana flow (when you sit still, it leaks further), you just have to worry about yourself.

You'd have to get some wierd tattoos/branding/implants in order to make the fluff, though.

QUOTE
The new moon had come again. Chauncey began the night with a sacrifice of small animals, as he had for the last few months. Using the knife, with innocent, sacrificial blood still on it, he began to trace sigils in the holy script his mentor, the Dark King had revealed to him. As he worked his careful art, he noticed the sinister aspect of the strong emotions that pooled around him like so many popups became stronger. When the night was finally done, another line from the Necronomicon was etched into his skin, and he sagged with fatigue. Only one more month and two more chapters of script were left, and complete control over his emotions was complete. Just as the Dark King had told him.
Draco18s
It'd be kinda cheesy. Looking to take on X Corp over there? Rent an apartment nearby. Not move for 1 month (ie. never leave your apartment). Your now aspected aura extends 224 meters away from your apartment. Just large enough to cover the entire city block in every direction, including X Corp's building. Wait another month. 448 meter radius BC 4 (that's a half mile circle), X Corp's mages have been unable to summon spirits for a month now. Any they had have long since headed home.

Time to strike.

Edit: hell, take up residence first, then aspect your domain. It'd be 2 miles across just in the time it takes for you to aspect it.
Neraph
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 17 2009, 11:40 AM) *
It'd be kinda cheesy. Looking to take on X Corp over there? Rent an apartment nearby. Not move for 1 month (ie. never leave your apartment). Your now aspected aura extends 224 meters away from your apartment. Just large enough to cover the entire city block in every direction, including X Corp's building. Wait another month. 448 meter radius BC 4 (that's a half mile circle), X Corp's mages have been unable to summon spirits for a month now. Any they had have long since headed home.

Time to strike.

Edit: hell, take up residence first, then aspect your domain. It'd be 2 miles across just in the time it takes for you to aspect it.

X Corp's mages only have 4 magic? They deserve to be pwned. Plus, they could Cleanse your BC, or use that metamagic to allow them to cast anyways. Or they could have CZs themselves. Or they could be totally mechanized, with those rail-only drones, and no wireless signals.

Besides, unless you've got a SIN, I think Lone Star's magical division (can't remember the name right now) would find out what you're doing before you could finish Geomancy-ing yourself, and prolly nail you for some sort of magical terrorism.

EDIT: It's not broken, it just requires creativity on the GM's part. It's honestly not very different than a Fomori/Gnome mage with a r4 Power Focus at the beginning of play (which you can totally do, BTW).
Draco18s
After poking my GM he says that you could aspect a huge area effected by the hazing towards a particular aspect ('dog shaman') but that the hazing would slowly (ha!) overwrite it with mana static (the haze). You can NEVER aspect the haze itself, only what the haze creates.

Which is what I'm saying.

In any case, good luck making 8 successes on a ritual spellcasting test when you only have ~6 dice (ritual spellcasting + magic -4).

QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 17 2009, 12:49 PM) *
X Corp's mages only have 4 magic? They deserve to be pwned.


If they have higher than 4 magic, now they have 4 less magic. All the time. 6 magic before? 2 magic now, they'll be pwned. Summoning spirits: -4 dice. Lower cap on spirit's force. Spirit is summoned and loses 4 force being in the haze. All spells immediately lose 4 force when cast (not to mention having 4 fewer dice to cast the spell as well as needing to overcast to achieve force 5+ before the count takes it's cut). A magic 2 mage (magic 6 before the BC) simply CAN NOT cast any magic.

To even cast spells while in the BC area you need magic 7. To cast spells that mean anything you'd have to be magic 8 or better. Magic 9 would be needed in order to cast a spell without needing to overecast.
Neraph
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 17 2009, 11:54 AM) *
After poking my GM he says that you could aspect a huge area effected by the hazing towards a particular aspect ('dog shaman') but that the hazing would slowly (ha!) overwrite it with mana static (the haze). You can NEVER aspect the haze itself, only what the haze creates.

Which is what I'm saying.

In any case, good luck making 8 successes on a ritual spellcasting test when you only have ~6 dice (ritual spellcasting + magic -4).

This is how the rules work.

You are the heart of a R4 Backround Count. If you stand still, it grows. There is no mention that it overlaps and flows and all that other stuff (that's fluff, not crunch). So if anything, if you were to move after aspecting, you'd only lose the outer ring, as the BC you've already aspected moves with you. The 'haze' is fluff; it is counted as being a backround count of 4, and we can work with backround counts.

Clarify this even further with Augmentation:

QUOTE (Augmentation, page 157)
Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the cyberzombie always stands at the heart of a rating 4 backround count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters... If she remains in one place for long, the backround count will expand...


The term 'expand' does not mean 'replace and get bigger' or 'renew'.

Geomancy is treated as casting a Ritual Spell, at force 8, requiring 8 successes. You can easily get the dice required for 8 successes at chargen; however, in order to get the 4 magic required to overcast to effective force 8, you'd either have to Initiate II and raise magic twice, or be Infected with the Energy Drain power (and use it to buff your Magic).
Stahlseele
Hmm . . Astral Hazing is a flaw yes?
And Fomori get the Astral Arrester right?
And Type-O would be an edge.
Soo, start out with Fomori with both, get mucho bio, when you can afford it get adapsin to be able to cram more cyber into your body for cheap too?
Neraph
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 17 2009, 12:25 PM) *
Hmm . . Astral Hazing is a flaw yes?
And Fomori get the Astral Arrester right?
And Type-O would be an edge.
Soo, start out with Fomori with both, get mucho bio, when you can afford it get adapsin to be able to cram more cyber into your body for cheap too?

I don't see what that has to do with Astral Hazing, but yes, that would work. Except you can't get Astral Hazing with 5 points of SURGE. Astral Hazing takes 10 BP of negative qualities from SURGE.
Mäx
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 17 2009, 09:07 PM) *
I don't see what that has to do with Astral Hazing, but yes, that would work. Except you can't get Astral Hazing with 5 points of SURGE. Astral Hazing takes 10 BP of negative qualities from SURGE.

You can if you have room for 5 BP of normal negative qualities.
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