Infected as Player Characters, so has anyone actually allowed it? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Weaver95]

I'm just curious - has anyone actually run a campaign (standard 400 pt or otherwise) that allowed for ghoul, vampire or other infected characters/concepts? If so, how did they stack up with the other players in your group?

I'm considering allowing a ghoul player character into my up and coming SR4 game and thought I'd ask the experts before I give the nod to my player(s). feedback welcome! positive, negative, or whatever you gots to say on the topic I wanna hear it.

[Stahlseele]

I would not mix infected with any other kind of character.
Except maybe other stuff from RC. Things that can't get infected.
Or you run a campaign with all infected characters.
Else, basically every time a ghoul shakes hands with another guy,
congratulations, you have another bleached face.

[Namelessjoe]

hi there

we havent had any undead, no infected (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but i think a word of caution (baring your game style) is of societies views of ghouls.... ive played a 10ft tall full conversion troll and just my appearance it was very difficult to get around in town(read:near impossible) it would be easer for a ghoul but still.... oh also keep in mind his eating habits and the people you would need to associate with for the meats mmmm brains (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) anyway i suppose to make it easyer but reduce the neg ramifications you could always roll food requirements into the cost of lifestyle

any way i think with a good back story and thoughtfull prep with the hay if you cause raiots from eating too much soilent green you may have to mak a back up charicter clause id say go for it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Weaver95]

I would not mix infected with any other kind of character.
Except maybe other stuff from RC. Things that can't get infected.
Or you run a campaign with all infected characters.
Else, basically every time a ghoul shakes hands with another guy,
congratulations, you have another bleached face.

it's not THAT easy to pass on the infection. blood to blood transfer, sexual contact (ewwww!) and/or saliva can pass on the disease. But contact doesn't automatically ensure infection. A simple handshake alone won't do it.

[Karoline]

Isn't there some quality that infected can take (A negative quality in fact) that makes it so that they can't transfer the virus? Something like 'infertile infected.' I believe all second generation infected have this automatically (ie children of actual infected). This could prevent the 'oh snap, ghoul army' syndrome that accompanies the high contagious rate of infected.

Diet is also important to keep in mind. You likely don't want to just handwave the fact that ghouls need a quarter their body weight in raw meat a week, and vampires need that much blood. You don't need to go into gory detail either, but it shouldn't be "Hey! Stuffer shack dude! I need a quarter pounder, raw, and a blood shake, to go please." either.

[Weaver95]

Isn't there some quality that infected can take (A negative quality in fact) that makes it so that they can't transfer the virus? Something like 'infertile infected.' I believe all second generation infected have this automatically (ie children of actual infected). This could prevent the 'oh snap, ghoul army' syndrome that accompanies the high contagious rate of infected.

actually, I didn't know the answer to this question, so I went looking in the SR4 rulebook. The infection power only comes into play AFTER someone has been drained down to zero essence. And even then, it's a opposed test to see if they become infected.

Diet is also important to keep in mind. You likely don't want to just handwave the fact that ghouls need a quarter their body weight in raw meat a week, and vampires need that much blood. You don't need to go into gory detail either, but it shouldn't be "Hey! Stuffer shack dude! I need a quarter pounder, raw, and a blood shake, to go please." either.

depending on the particulars of character background, I could always take the option listed in the Runner's Companion and use some variant on the advanced lifestyles rules to handle part of the dietary requirement. Essence loss (for vampires) isn't TOO bad a deal - they have to feed at least once a month or lose one point of essence. ghouls tho...they have to feed at least once a week (5% of their body weight per week) or they start to starve to death. That might be most interesting indeed...hmm, also vampires have to feed on blood once a week too or they'll starve. so looks like they'll be raiding the blood bank in addition to draining essence at least once a lunar cycle....go go runner's companion.

So dietary requirements are going to be something to ponder for any player who decides to play an infected. i'm less concerned about them infecting someone else, since it seems to be fairly difficult to infect others. I also see no information listed about Infected and offspring - my assumption is that infection renders the victim infertile and unable to reproduce via normal methods.

[Weaver95]

ah - ok, so addendum to my previous post:

HMHVVI (strain I) can only be passed via the infection power.
HMHVVII and HMHVVIII are passed as other diseases. so contact with body fluids and the like can result in infection and transformation. However - strain II and III can be fought with magic and/or strong antibotics. if/when the disease takes effect, it's irreversible...but prior to that it can be fought off successfullly, if properly treated and swift action is taken.

also - it is apparently possible for someone to be a 'carrier' of HMHVV but not infected themselves. Infected can also take the 'infertile infected' quality and cannot infect other people. Interestingly enough, the reading of 'infertile infected' does hint at the possiblity of 'normal' childbirth for infected.

[Karoline]

ah - ok, so addendum to my previous post:

HMHVVI (strain I) can only be passed via the infection power.
HMHVVII and HMHVVIII are passed as other diseases. so contact with body fluids and the like can result in infection and transformation. However - strain II and III can be fought with magic and/or strong antibotics. if/when the disease takes effect, it's irreversible...but prior to that it can be fought off successfullly, if properly treated and swift action is taken.

also - it is apparently possible for someone to be a 'carrier' of HMHVV but not infected themselves. Infected can also take the 'infertile infected' quality and cannot infect other people. Interestingly enough, the reading of 'infertile infected' does hint at the possiblity of 'normal' childbirth for infected.

Yeah, carriers result when you have someone with an infection that isn't compatible with their metatype (such as a human with the Wendigo strain which only affects orks).

infertile infected generally result from the children of infected (Which are possible for some infected but not for others, there is a section on it in RC)

Also, you have got to be super careful with the spreading for the virus. Yes it can be fought off with antibiotics and such, but strain II is power 13 and strain III is power 8, both with penetration -6 (Don't remember if that is good or bad) and is spread by contact with an infected, their blood, or their saliva. You can get it down, but it is hard and requires serious medical/magical attention.

I'd suggest limiting the infected allowed to those that are type I so that it can be more easily controlled -or- requiring anyone with type II or III to get the infertile infected quality.

[Weaver95]

I'd suggest limiting the infected allowed to those that are type I so that it can be more easily controlled -or- requiring anyone with type II or III to get the infertile infected quality.

hmm...good points, and well worth considering. I just reread the rules for disease in the augmentation book and you're right - HMHVV is far nastier than even gamma-anthrax. however, it's still limited to contact. I'd specifically say contact where the possiblity of fluid transfer could take place, but the rules aren't that specific. Combat injuries could do it, of course. Or again, sexual contact with a ghoul (ewww). But merely shaking hands wouldn't be enough, at least in my book anyway.

howeve,r, the point about requiring infected players to take the infertile infected quality is well made. I shall add that to my character creation campaign notes.

[SincereAgape]

I am curious to see how infected PC (Specfically Vampires) stack up compared the base metahumans in a 400 build point campaign.

I enjoy using Vampires as NPCs and have used a grade 3 initiate vampire mage as a prime runner in the North Jersey campaign (Risa from On the Run).

On paper, I assume a vampire with adapt or magical abilities would outshine an elf, human, ork, dwarf, or troll because of their regeneration powers and natural vision enhancements, and ability to turn into mist. (Especailly adapts).

The only downside that I can see is the build point cost to play a vampire ( I believe it's 100?), thus limiting the character in other departments such as attributes, skills, spells, contacts, resources, etc.

[Karoline]

hmm...good points, and well worth considering. I just reread the rules for disease in the augmentation book and you're right - HMHVV is far nastier than even gamma-anthrax. however, it's still limited to contact. I'd specifically say contact where the possiblity of fluid transfer could take place, but the rules aren't that specific. Combat injuries could do it, of course. Or again, sexual contact with a ghoul (ewww). But merely shaking hands wouldn't be enough, at least in my book anyway.

howeve,r, the point about requiring infected players to take the infertile infected quality is well made. I shall add that to my character creation campaign notes.

Shaking a ghoul's hand is enough to transfer the virus. Contact vectors are just that. Any sort of contact with anything that gives the disease (Which includes the infected itself, its blood, or its saliva) with any part of your skin counts as contact. This is what makes some people have a bit of difficulty believing the 'repressed minority' thing, because it seems like a single well disguised ghoul could transform thousands of people just by going up to people and shaking their hand or patting them on the arm or spitting on some hand rails or door nobs/handles.

[Karoline]

I am curious to see how infected PC (Specfically Vampires) stack up compared the base metahumans in a 400 build point campaign.

I enjoy using Vampires as NPCs and have used a grade 3 initiate vampire mage as a prime runner in the North Jersey campaign (Risa from On the Run).

On paper, I assume a vampire with adapt or magical abilities would outshine an elf, human, ork, dwarf, or troll because of their regeneration powers and natural vision enhancements, and ability to turn into mist. (Especailly adapts).

The only downside that I can see is the build point cost to play a vampire ( I believe it's 100?), thus limiting the character in other departments such as attributes, skills, spells, contacts, resources, etc.

Hehe, I'll have to make one once I'm done with my current character I'm working on.

[Weaver95]

The only downside that I can see is the build point cost to play a vampire ( I believe it's 100?), thus limiting the character in other departments such as attributes, skills, spells, contacts, resources, etc.

to some extent, the BP costs for attributes are mitigated by the bonus stats vampires get merely for being one of the infected. Ghouls, for example, are walking freaking tanks. vampires tend to be quicker, more agile. But all of the infected see some level of modifications for their stat line.

To answer your question, yes - a vampire PC will suffer for their choice. it's 100BP for a vampire (35 for ghouls), which means sacrificing in other areas. Or picking up negative qualities somewhere. Not to mention the social stigma of being a vampire or ghoul. And I believe that many areas of the world still consider it open season on the infected. Not to mention that for many of the infected, merely trying to feed themselves is a crime. so there are significant downsides to playing one of the infected, and I intend to enforce them if and when they arise.

[Weaver95]

Shaking a ghoul's hand is enough to transfer the virus.

i'm going to disagree with that interpretation. contact with bodily fluids, yes. mere skin to skin contact, no. the rules in Augmentation (pg 129) and Runners Companion (pg 83) certainly indicate that contact or exchange of bodily fluids counts as exposure but shaking hands with ghoul isn't enough to spred the disease.

[SincereAgape]

Hehe, I'll have to make one once I'm done with my current character I'm working on.

Boo. Hiss. Can't stand vampires to be honest with ya. Let me know how that turns out though. I am tempted to roll one myself and use them as a NPC.

Interesting. Only a moderate allergy to sunlight. That means they can go out in the sun without instantly frying.

Server to Wood. *Sharpens stake and gets a baseball bat ready*

To answer your question, yes - a vampire PC will suffer for their choice. it's 100BP for a vampire (35 for ghouls), which means sacrificing in other areas. Or picking up negative qualities somewhere. Not to mention the social stigma of being a vampire or ghoul. And I believe that many areas of the world still consider it open season on the infected. Not to mention that for many of the infected, merely trying to feed themselves is a crime. so there are significant downsides to playing one of the infected, and I intend to enforce them if and when they arise.

There are many Ghoul socities, and I believe there is even a ghoul nation or sect in LA.

Vampires on the other hand. Not sure about. There probably is a secret society out there who call themselves the Sabbat or Camerilla.

[Karoline]

Boo. Hiss. Can't stand vampires to be honest with ya. Let me know how that turns out though. I am tempted to roll one myself and use them as a NPC.

Interesting. Only a moderate allergy to sunlight. That means they can go out in the sun without instantly frying.

Server to Wood. *Sharpens stake and gets a baseball bat ready*



There are many Ghoul socities, and I believe there is even a ghoul nation or sect in LA.

Vampires on the other hand. Not sure about. There probably is a secret society out there who call themselves the Sabbat or Camerilla.

Who makes anything out of wood in 2072? Bats included, last I checked wood was kinda hard/expensive to get. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

There is some mention about Cabals of vampires (often headed by a nosforatu), but I figure that Vampires can blend into society quite well as they look almost completely normal (I've got a sunlight allergy, soy allergy, and fang implants when I was a kid)

HMHVV II is responsible for the creation of bandersnatchii,
fomóraig, and loup-garou, and is typically spread by unprotected
contact with those creatures or their bodily fluids.

Notice how it says with the creatures -or- their bodily fluids, thus contact with the creature itself is enough.

HMHVV III starts out the exact same way.

So unless you're wearing gloves, don't shake a ghoul's hand.

[Weaver95]

Vampires on the other hand. Not sure about. There probably is a secret society out there who call themselves the Sabbat or Camerilla.

don't get me started.

I've actually been thinking about HMHVV and shadowrun quite a bit. were there people carrying the disease when mana levels got high enough for it to activate? If so, were they the 'first generation' of infected? given their immunity to age it's possible they're still around.

ghouls actually have two main 'factions': followers of Tamir Grey (the Ghoul Liberation League) who are largely peaceful and lawabiding, and the survivors of the Cabrini Green massacre (the 162s) who are much more militant and violent. Of the two, I could see the 162's going around and trying to infect high ranking corporate types and influential politicans.

actuall, I think they're the 162's. I don't have loose alliances with me at the moment so I can't check it for reference. Anyways, vampires are quite a bit more rare in shadowrun. Not to mention they seem to tend towards a more solitary lifestyle. I could see a couple vampires getting together to form a loose web of contacts and feeding tips/tactics but I don't see them clubbing together like the ghouls do. And forget about the nosferatu vampires - they're strictly loners. moreso than standard vampires.

[The Dragon Girl]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) One of the folks I'm playing with now played a ghoul in her last game, and my characters best contact is a ghoul in this one, along with her romantic interest.
Things to keep in mind:
You have to work out how they're getting their food. There are actual law abiding ways to do this, as well as black market.
Gloves. Chemically sealed.
Ghouls should not be kissed, and should not have sex, except with other infected. (Yes, I know, romance interest for my character aside, its a tragedy thing for them. look but don't touch)
Ghouls look like ghouls, except when they don't. cybereyes, good make up, wigs. And you can't fix that astral signature.
If your teammates find out you're a ghoul theres a 50/50 chance they'll kill you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Some groups its worse odds than that, some groups its better.
If you are a SINless ghoul, you are fair game for bounty hunters.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) sometimes the challenges are what make the game fun, sometimes its what makes it not fun. Do whats fun for ya'll.

~TDG

[Ravor]

Hell, even if you have a SIN you are still likely to be "fair game".


But then again, my players have a "kill it with fire" attitude towards Ghouls, Vampires not so much since they have to actually try to infect you...
'

[Muspellsheimr]

it's not THAT easy to pass on the infection. blood to blood transfer, sexual contact (ewwww!) and/or saliva can pass on the disease. But contact doesn't automatically ensure infection. A simple handshake alone won't do it.

Yes, it is. Yes, it does.

i'm going to disagree with that interpretation. contact with bodily fluids, yes. mere skin to skin contact, no. the rules in Augmentation (pg 129) and Runners Companion (pg 83) certainly indicate that contact or exchange of bodily fluids counts as exposure but shaking hands with ghoul isn't enough to spred the disease.

Vector
The vector is the method by which the disease infects the
host. Diseases spread by contact must touch the target's skin. A
chemical seal (see p.317, SR4) offers complete protection unless
breached. Diseases spread by ingestion may be in food or liquid
consumed by the victim. Diseases spread by inhalation may be
transmitted to the victim via his breathing apparatus; a character
wearing a gas mask, chemical seal, or using an activated cyberware
internal air tank (p. 334, SR4) is immune to its effects. Diseases
spread by injection must be injected into the target's bloodstream
or alternately through an open wound.

You are thinking of Injection. Ghouls spread by Contact, with a nearly guaranteed success rate (Power 8 ). Unless immediately treated with high-rating nanotechnology, the character will become a Ghoul, and even then, they are probably going to loose a significant chunk of Essence.

Rules as Written, the fluff cannot be accurate because the entire planet has become Ghouls 5 years ago.




Edit: To the original question, Vampires & Nosferatu are correctly priced, & reasonably balanced (they should be slightly better - the Infected additional IP should stack with other forms of Initiative Enhancement).

As for the other Infected, they are all either overpowered or underpowered - most to a significant degree - for the Build Points they cost to play. For example, barring the above idiocy regarding contagions, Ghouls should cost 60 Build Points, & Loup-Garou should be a 20 Build Point negative quality.

Assuming you fix the contagion factor (which should be done regardless of if there is a player ghoul or not), and you do not mind the balancing discrepencies (I do, so I changed the costs), then Ghouls are just fine.


Suggested Contagion Fix:
Power: 5
Vector: Injection
Penetration: -2

This means that a single hit from a Ghoul's natural weapon that deals Physical damage will run a strong chance of Infection, but it is not a guaranteed thing (although it will make it more likely the next time, & so on). More importantly, the rules actually match the fluff & it is no longer a apocalypse scenario.

[Udoshi]

If you're going to use Ghouls in your campaign, you first need to decide which version of HMHVV you're using in your game. Running Wild had a new version that, i believe, superceded the runner's companion version. The RW virus, when applied to the rules normally, basically results in instant zombie apocalypse. Our gaming group took one look at it, went 'Yeah, thats really stupid' and tossed that rule out of our table. From the looks of it, everyone else in this thread is assuming you'll be using that book.

Just pick up the runner's companion instead. Much more reasonable.

[Karoline]

If you're going to use Ghouls in your campaign, you first need to decide which version of HMHVV you're using in your game. Running Wild had a new version that, i believe, superceded the runner's companion version. The RW virus, when applied to the rules normally, basically results in instant zombie apocalypse. Our gaming group took one look at it, went 'Yeah, thats really stupid' and tossed that rule out of our table. From the looks of it, everyone else in this thread is assuming you'll be using that book.

Just pick up the runner's companion instead. Much more reasonable.

We are using RC for all of these numbers.

Edit: Or at least I am.

[Weaver95]

We are using RC for all of these numbers.

Edit: Or at least I am.

As am I.

[Weaver95]

Here's another oddity to the HMHVV rules - if ghouls were really 'one touch/instant infection', then why are the bounties on them so low? Looking in 'Running Wild', sidebar pg 64 there's a list of bounties paid in the CAS and UCAS on various and sundry infected. Ghouls rate a 1,500 nuyen catch in the CAS, 1,500 in UCAS. Vampires, on the other hand, weigh in at 6,000 nuyen for CAS, 7,500 in the UCAS.

Aside from establishing the fact that the UCAS really really hates vampires for some reason, why would the critter with the lesser rate of infection (i.e. vampires having to drain essence of a victim before using their infection power) have the higher bounty when ghouls (if they can infect merely by shaking hands are a MUCH bigger danger) are a much much lower bounty? if the CAS and UCAS really wanted to get rid of ghouls they'd put a higher bounty on them to encourage hunting them down and getting rid of them.

totally weird.

[Karoline]

Well, one thing that you have to keep in mind is that the ghoul infection takes 10 days to take full affect, so if you -know- you've been in contact with a ghoul, you can go get some medical treatment (Which might actually be provided for free by the government to prevent an outbreak). So the danger is when you have stealth ghoul going around spitting on door knobs, not when crazed ghouls try eating you.

There is also the fact that Vampires may not be as physically strong as Ghouls, but they are much harder to kill, and if they want they can transform a person in a matter of minutes. They are also rarer. UCAS doesn't mind forking over a big bounty on something that they are unlikely to have to pay up on more than 1 or 2 at a time. Ghouls on the other hand can be brought in by the cart load, and UCAS just doesn't want to have a sudden hit to their resources when someone walks in with 20 ghoul heads with a 10k bounty on each one.

[Muspellsheimr]

If you're going to use Ghouls in your campaign, you first need to decide which version of HMHVV you're using in your game. Running Wild had a new version that, i believe, superceded the runner's companion version. The RW virus, when applied to the rules normally, basically results in instant zombie apocalypse. Our gaming group took one look at it, went 'Yeah, thats really stupid' and tossed that rule out of our table. From the looks of it, everyone else in this thread is assuming you'll be using that book.

Just pick up the runner's companion instead. Much more reasonable.

Except for one minor detail - the rules in Runners Companion & Running Wild are identical.

Here's another oddity to the HMHVV rules - if ghouls were really 'one touch/instant infection', then why are the bounties on them so low? Looking in 'Running Wild', sidebar pg 64 there's a list of bounties paid in the CAS and UCAS on various and sundry infected. Ghouls rate a 1,500 nuyen catch in the CAS, 1,500 in UCAS. Vampires, on the other hand, weigh in at 6,000 nuyen for CAS, 7,500 in the UCAS.

Aside from establishing the fact that the UCAS really really hates vampires for some reason, why would the critter with the lesser rate of infection (i.e. vampires having to drain essence of a victim before using their infection power) have the higher bounty when ghouls (if they can infect merely by shaking hands are a MUCH bigger danger) are a much much lower bounty? if the CAS and UCAS really wanted to get rid of ghouls they'd put a higher bounty on them to encourage hunting them down and getting rid of them.

totally weird.

You know, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. As I have been saying, the rules are fucking retarded. They simply do not work for anything except a Zombie Apocalypse game, & as this is obviously not such a game, the rules are broken.

Simple answer is the correct one - the HMHVV III rules do not function as intended, & no amount of trying to twist it will work, said rules simply need to be altered.

[Weaver95]

Well, one thing that you have to keep in mind is that the ghoul infection takes 10 days to take full affect

Actually, that's untrue. according to RC, pg 83 - HMHVV III (the ghoul strain) has a 1 day infection period. At any time after that, you can start spreading the joy of ghoul-dom. and you aren't incapacatated either - you can be walking around. Ok, technically you'd probably be puking your guts out, screaming/moaning in agony and somewhat confused...but you could be walking/stumbling around and infecting others. If we are to assume that mere touch alone is responsible for infection (and the pathology of the disease can be implied from other/older source material for this to NOT be the case), one ghoul that gets into someplace like ACHE (the former renraku arcology) would turn the entire place into a charnel house inside of 2 days.

Why would the CAS and UCAS not want to see something like that exterminated post haste?

There is also the fact that Vampires may not be as physically strong as Ghouls, but they are much harder to kill, and if they want they can transform a person in a matter of minutes. They are also rarer. UCAS doesn't mind forking over a big bounty on something that they are unlikely to have to pay up on more than 1 or 2 at a time. Ghouls on the other hand can be brought in by the cart load, and UCAS just doesn't want to have a sudden hit to their resources when someone walks in with 20 ghoul heads with a 10k bounty on each one.

the mechanics of vampiric infection vs ghoul infection patterns (assuming we take your model as reality) indicate that ghouls are the vastly greater threat. yet the bounty on ghouls is among the lowest in every nation. that simply does not fit together.

[Muspellsheimr]

the mechanics of vampiric infection vs ghoul infection patterns (assuming we take your model as reality) indicate that ghouls are the vastly greater threat. yet the bounty on ghouls is among the lowest in every nation. that simply does not fit together.

Again, simple answer is the correct answer. The Rules as Written need to be fixed, as they do not even remotely reflect the fluff or setting of the game.

[Weaver95]

Except for one minor detail - the rules in Runners Companion & Running Wild are identical.


You know, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. As I have been saying, the rules are fucking retarded. They simply do not work for anything except a Zombie Apocalypse game, & as this is obviously not such a game, the rules are broken.

Simple answer is the correct one - the HMHVV III rules do not function as intended, & no amount of trying to twist it will work, said rules simply need to be altered.

here's what I think - I am going to treat HMHVV strains listed as 'contact' as to assume 'contact with bodily fluids'. Strain I is unchanged, still requiring the use of the critter Infection power/essence drain combo punch in order to activate it's vampiric goodness. To assume that merely shaking hands with a ghoul indicates instant infection simply does not fit with the established game setting. you're right - to strictly interpret the HMHVV rules as listed would result in an instant zombie apocalypse style game.

[Karoline]

Actually, that's untrue. according to RC, pg 83 - HMHVV III (the ghoul strain) has a 1 day infection period. At any time after that, you can start spreading the joy of ghoul-dom. and you aren't incapacatated either - you can be walking around. Ok, technically you'd probably be puking your guts out, screaming/moaning in agony and somewhat confused...but you could be walking/stumbling around and infecting others. If we are to assume that mere touch alone is responsible for infection (and the pathology of the disease can be implied from other/older source material for this to NOT be the case), one ghoul that gets into someplace like ACHE (the former renraku arcology) would turn the entire place into a charnel house inside of 2 days.

You should really read the full text and not just the quick stats. Also, reading over the disease rules again... you are very very unlikely to ever become a ghoul. You will lose a big chunk of essence, but you won't become a ghoul.

Get ready for rules!

Now then, HMHVV III has a speed of 1 day, a power of 8, and a penetration of -6. Here is how it all comes together:
You get touched by a ghoul (Eww) and catch the virus. It has a 1 day incubation period, after which you roll your body to reduce the power. Any sort of other bonuses (Such as help from medical assistance) is reduced by 6, so you're unlikely to get much help from anything short of the very best medicine. Now, average person has a body of 3, so will get about 1 hit on average, reducing the power to 7. They then lose .1 essence because of the disease. At this point they are a carrier but not yet a ghoul (Which I suppose means they can transmit through blood, but likely not contact or even saliva yet). Now, another 24 hours later, the disease kicks in again. You roll body, average joe reduces the power to 6, and loses another .1 essence. After 7 days and .7 essence lose, day 8 rolls around, the power is down to 1, and the final hit reduces the power to 0. At this point you do not lose another .1 essence. You are still a carrier until 10 days have passed, but you are no longer at risk of actually becoming a ghoul (Because in order for HMHVV III to turn you into a ghoul, it must drain a full point of essence and still be active (have a power over 1)). After day ten passes, so long as the power has already been reduced to 0, you don't become a ghoul and the virus dies in your system. You've lost some essence from the ordeal, but survived.

So yes, if you actually read the rules and follow them properly, only the weak and sickly will be turned into a ghoul by HMHVV III, everyone else will just take an essence hit. Since there is no knowledge of an 'essence' number in SR, people don't realize just how much it cost them to touch that ghoul, and so that is why the bounty is so low.

[Muspellsheimr]

Entirely incorrect. Go read the Pathogen rules again - the Power is cumulative.

Breakdown:

Day 1: Power 8. Joe Average achieves 1 Hit, reducing Power to 7. 0.1 Essence Loss.
Day 2: Power 8+7=15. Joe Average achieves a remarkable 3 Hits, reducing the Power to 12. 0.1 Essence Loss.
Day 3: Power 8+12=20. Joe Average craps out with 0 Hits, for 20 Power. 0.1 Essence Loss.
Day 4: Power 8+20=28...

Do I need to continue? Also note that if you somehow avoid turning into a Ghoul in your first "infection episode", you have still lost a significant amount of Essence. More importantly, you turn into a Ghoul when you have lost 1.0 Essence due to the virus, not due to a single episode of infection.

This is the reason that even at my suggested Power 5, -2 Penetration, the disease is still very dangerous. Reduce the Power to 2, and if you have not adjusted the Vector, it still results in Zombie Apocalypse within a month.


Edit: Forgot to mention that if you somehow manage to reduce the Power to 0, the only result is you do not suffer the symptoms for that single test. The disease continues for a minimum of 10 days with cumulative power. Only after that point is the Power no longer cumulative, & thus ends if you reduce the Power to 0 as described in the above post.

[Weaver95]

Now, average person has a body of 3, so will get about 1 hit on average, reducing the power to 7. They then lose .1 essence because of the disease. At this point they are a carrier but not yet a ghoul (Which I suppose means they can transmit through blood, but likely not contact or even saliva yet).

Nope - according to your strict interpretation of the disease rules, if you've got the disease and it's active, you can pass it along to others just as if you were a ghoul yourself. So under your hypothetical situation, one ghoul can touch off a cascade of infections. It'll grow exponentially too since symptoms don't appear until after the first disease resistance test - which takes an entire day. so anyone who gets touched by a ghoul is now carrying the ghoul strain of the virus and everyone they touch will be infected as well.

And even after they're affected by the disease (i.e. take their first disease resistance test) they are STILL able to infect people. Ghoul disease doesn't incapaciate it's victims. Oh it frags 'em up seriously bad, but they can (theoretically) still move around and infect other people. Vampirism, on the other hand, puts you into a coma for a couple days while the disease transforms you (then you wake up hungry and looking for blood and souls to consume).

Again - all the data indicates that, according to strict interpretation of the rules, ACHE should be the racoon city Hive in about 2 days after a ghoul manages to slime it's way through the sewer tunnels.

[Karoline]

Darn, I missed that it was cumulative.

Alright, so you are basically screwed unless you have an amazing body score and a bunch of resistance to help you out.

I still think it is fairly unclear as to at what point you can pass it on again by simple touch. I would think that until it completely infects you (become a ghoul) it could only be passed on by contact with your blood.

I would think the HMHVV III having to wait until the victim is fully turned into a ghoul to pass on by touch would be the main thing stopping zombie Apocalypse. Even then, your right, a single ghoul managing to find its way into a city could infect alot of people, though I still figure that anyone who has HMHVV III (But isn't a ghoul yet) is either given amazing medical care or shot.

[Weaver95]

I still think it is fairly unclear as to at what point you can pass it on again by simple touch. I would think that until it completely infects you (become a ghoul) it could only be passed on by contact with your blood.

the ONLY way this works is if 'contact' infection means 'contact with blood and/or saliva'. simple skin to skin contact infection would result in massive outbreaks of ghouls within any given major urban population center. It would also result in worldwide zombie apocalypse within about 6 months.

I'd also make the further assumption that HMHVV cannot live outside of a host for very long. perhaps 20 minutes or so at most.

[Traul]

Ghouls themselves might be the best defence against pandemia: most of the people they touch do not live long enough to contaminate anybody.

[Karoline]

the ONLY way this works is if 'contact' infection means 'contact with blood and/or saliva'. simple skin to skin contact infection would result in massive outbreaks of ghouls within any given major urban population center. It would also result in worldwide zombie apocalypse within about 6 months.

I'd also make the further assumption that HMHVV cannot live outside of a host for very long. perhaps 20 minutes or so at most.

RAW specifically states that it includes contact with the ghoul itself, which would indicate its own skin. What RAW does not state is that someone carrying HMHVV III that hasn't yet transformed into a ghoul can pass it on by -any- means at all (I just figure blood would still have it). So yeah, just don't touch their blood (Which is generally avoided anyway) and you'll be fine. This is what prevent zombie apocalypse, the fact that only a small portion get infected and then not treated before their time is up, and that they can't in turn infect anyone for 10 days.

Now, I'm not saying that it isn't still overpowered, but you don't have everyone in a building infected in ten seconds.

Edit: This does make the fact that some countries want to give ghouls citizenship very scary, because then there would be a very serious risk of infecting other people by mistake.

Edit2:

Ghouls themselves might be the best defence against pandemia: most of the people they touch do not live long enough to contaminate anybody.

Good point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Weaver95]

RAW specifically states that it includes contact with the ghoul itself, which would indicate its own skin. What RAW does not state is that someone carrying HMHVV III that hasn't yet transformed into a ghoul can pass it on by -any- means at all (I just figure blood would still have it). So yeah, just don't touch their blood (Which is generally avoided anyway) and you'll be fine. This is what prevent zombie apocalypse, the fact that only a small portion get infected and then not treated before their time is up, and that they can't in turn infect anyone for 10 days.

remember - you can start transforming into a ghoul within a DAY after making your first disease test. according to the rules, that means you are infectious from that point forward. And since ghouls aren't incapacatated during their transformation, they can wander around touching, sweating, crying and puking on everyone around them, thus infecting them as well. One ghoul riding the subway during rush hour would infect an entire train worth of victims. who would go home and infect their friends/family/neighbor/coworkers. who would then spread the infection still further.

As currently written, the HMHVV rules equate to full on zombie apocalypse within about a year from first infection.

[Karoline]

No you can't. You transform when you lose 1 essence, and not before then. And while you can be up and about, there are about a half dozen debilitating side effects, most of which basically say "You aren't going anywhere buddy."

If you want to keep it playable with RAW, just figure on the fact that the virus can only be transferred by blood until the person has fully transformed into a ghoul. Problem solved just like that. A ghoul is still a big problem if he gets loose in the middle of a city, but at worse some people go to the hospital and suck on meds for a while and the ghoul is quickly killed (This might explain the whole 'there is a bounty on ghouls' thing.)

[Weaver95]

No you can't. You transform when you lose 1 essence, and not before then. And while you can be up and about, there are about a half dozen debilitating side effects, most of which basically say "You aren't going anywhere buddy."

pain and nausea, which while totally uncool aren't as bad as paralysis (which WOULD stop you in your tracks). And the rules make no distinction between transformation and infection - according to the rules, it is entirely possible to be still fighting the disease and still infect others by touch alone. which again, does not make sense.

the only way this works is if ghouls only pass the infection along via contact with blood and/or bodily fluids. mere touch alone is insufficent. If that were the case, SR4 would be Resident Evil all over again.

If you want to keep it playable with RAW, just figure on the fact that the virus can only be transferred by blood until the person has fully transformed into a ghoul. Problem solved just like that. A ghoul is still a big problem if he gets loose in the middle of a city, but at worse some people go to the hospital and suck on meds for a while and the ghoul is quickly killed (This might explain the whole 'there is a bounty on ghouls' thing.)

except that again, the rules themselves are working against your interpretation here. For example - in Augmentation, pg 131 the rules for influenza state that oubreaks of superflu (i'm paraphrasing here) are power 6. But the baseline power of HMHVV III is power 8. POWER 8! it's more powerful than the 1917-1918 swine flu epidemic! And it's spread by mere touch alone. compare the two disease again - superflu (the power 6 version) has a penetration of 0. But ghoul fever has a -6 pen. Not to mention ghoul fever has a longer incubation period, thus allowing someone who's been infected to go spread the disease to others before he gets hit with the first symptoms. so ghoul fever spreads rapidly, is vastly more powerful than the superflu and eats antibiotics for lunch and asks for seconds.

[Karoline]

Yeah, I happened to read that about influenza and noticed how much more benign it is than HMHVV III. But like I said, there still isn't anything in the rules that suggests someone can transfer HMHVV III by touch at any point before they have become a full fledged ghoul, which is the only way that the disease makes any kind of sense as not being instant RE.

There are three real options. You play it RAW and accept that an infected can't pass the disease on by touch until they are full ghouls (Because it never states anywhere that it can be transferred in any way before the full transformation), or you change how the disease works so that it must be contact with blood/saliva only, or you just make it much much weaker.

Also, with pain and nausia, I suppose they -could- walk around, but they aren't real likely to (Incapacitated half the time, suffer double wound modifiers, and severe pain)

Like I said, multiple ways to deal with it so that SR doesn't become RE and I'll just leave it at that for now.

Edit: Though admittedly it could be fun to play an RE style SR game that runs with the 'zombie outbreak' policy. Maybe have the PCs be naturally immune to HMHVV III

Edit2: Actually, I think I might just have to run with that idea now...

[Weaver95]

Yeah, I happened to read that about influenza and noticed how much more benign it is than HMHVV III. But like I said, there still isn't anything in the rules that suggests someone can transfer HMHVV III by touch at any point before they have become a full fledged ghoul, which is the only way that the disease makes any kind of sense as not being instant RE.

The rules make no distinction on it it either way - but the rules certainly heavily imply that someone currently suffering from an infection can still pass it on to others in the same way that they themselves were infected. which in the case of HMHVV III means touch.

Like I said, multiple ways to deal with it so that SR doesn't become RE and I'll just leave it at that for now.

I'm going to assume the rules were not carefully edited with rates of infection in mind and modify them accordingly. keep in mind that it is STILL easy to be exposed to HMHVV III during combat. A ghoul bite could do it, as could any sustained close quarters hand to hand combat with one of the infected. But touch alone wouldn't be enough. sexual contact (ewww) of course would still count as exposure.



And I ain't gonna touch the rules for being born infected. you'd have to be very very drunk indeed to nail a ghoul chick after a long night in the bar.

Edit: Though admittedly it could be fun to play an RE style SR game that runs with the 'zombie outbreak' policy. Maybe have the PCs be naturally immune to HMHVV III

Edit2: Actually, I think I might just have to run with that idea now...

First off, i'm reading this thread and my MP3 player starts in with 'The man comes around' by Johnny Cash (aaaaa! zombies!) and second off - ghouls going around converting people in the ACHE would be Knight Errant's worst nightmare come true.

EDIT

the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ghouls infecting people in ACHE. imagine if the militant ghouls got in there and started...um...'recruiting' the bitter and desperate people locked up in there.

[Traul]

And I ain't gonna touch the rules for being born infected. you'd have to be very very drunk indeed to nail a ghoul chick after a long night in the bar.

Both parents could be ghouls.

[Weaver95]

Both parents could be ghouls.

I prefer to leave the details of ghoul sexuality to the imaginations of others.

ya sick freaks.

[Muspellsheimr]

Another comparison:
VITAS-3
Vector: Inhalation
Speed: 12 hours (4)
Penetration: -2
Power: 6
Nature: Viral
Effect: Stun Damage (converts to Physical when track exceeded), Malaise, Nausea


HMHVV III
Vector: Contact
Speed: 24 hours (10)
Penetration: -6
Power: 8
Nature: Retroviral
Effect: Pain, Nausea, Essence Loss, Transformation


VITAS-3 is described as one of the deadliest plagues in existence, with a mortality rate of 50% in humans. This is, in fact, roughly accurate with the Rules as Written at a glance.

The important aspects of the comparison have been outlined.

[Joe Chummer]

Re: Infected Diet

If I recall, RC says an Infected character can pay an extra 10% (or thereabouts) in their lifestyle cost to cover the their unique dietary requirements (although this alone won't offset whatever legalities you had to break to GET said dietary reqs...).

Also, not all vampires are bad. I recall some fluff in either a SR novel or sourcebook from way back in the day that had some guy talking about how he knew this one considerate vampire that, instead of feeding off live victims, he would buy metahuman blood from a blood bank.

Is this still a viable option for vampires (and thus banshees, nosferatu, and other blood-drinking essence drainers)? I understand that vampires actually drink essence, not blood; blood is just the transfer medium. So, does drinking blood-bank blood still count as containing some essence?

[Weaver95]

Is this still a viable option for vampires (and thus banshees, nosferatu, and other blood-drinking essence drainers)? I understand that vampires actually drink essence, not blood; blood is just the transfer medium. So, does drinking blood-bank blood still count as containing some essence?

well...according to the Runner's companion, pg 81 - vampire player characters pick up (among other things) a dietary requirement of of metahuman blood. this is in addition to essence loss. So as I understand it correctly, that means vampires have to feed on approx a pint of blood once a week or they start to starve (just like ghouls do if they don't eat metahuman flesh). Additionally, if a vampire doesn't feed on essence at least once a month, they'll start to suffer essence loss.

so it's blood AND souls that they have to feed on or suffer the consequences.

[Muspellsheimr]

Vampires require blood and Essence - it is not simply a transfer medium, it is a dietary requirement on it's own. Further, Essence Drain only functions against living sentient beings.

If you can convince your GM that the blood from a blood bank is both living & sentient, then it might work. This is very obviously a bullshit tactic though.

[Karoline]

Re: Infected Diet

If I recall, RC says an Infected character can pay an extra 10% (or thereabouts) in their lifestyle cost to cover the their unique dietary requirements (although this alone won't offset whatever legalities you had to break to GET said dietary reqs...).

Yeah, it is 30% and covers blood and/or meat.

[Weaver95]

Yeah, it is 30% and covers blood and/or meat.

expensive. probably makes the bookkeeping easier tho.

[Joe Chummer]

expensive. probably makes the bookkeeping easier tho.

Well, aside from whatever legal troubles you might get from, say, making deals with the Devil *COUGH!* er, Tamanous.

[Joe Chummer]

Vampires require blood and Essence - it is not simply a transfer medium, it is a dietary requirement on it's own. Further, Essence Drain only functions against living sentient beings.

If you can convince your GM that the blood from a blood bank is both living & sentient, then it might work. This is very obviously a bullshit tactic though.

Well, that must've changed since 2nd Ed. (the last ed. I was familiar with). Now I really wish I could remember where I read that comment about the vamp who visited the blood bank...

[Weaver95]

Well, aside from whatever legal troubles you might get from, say, making deals with the Devil *COUGH!* er, Tamanous.

in some respects that's not TOO much different than what any other shadowrunner has to put up with...one of the themes of the game is that runners make deals with bad people so they can avoid the consequences of dealing with worse people. it's just that the infected have something a bit more wet and messy to deal with than most of the folks living in the shadows.

[Joe Chummer]

in some respects that's not TOO much different than what any other shadowrunner has to put up with...one of the themes of the game is that runners make deals with bad people so they can avoid the consequences of dealing with worse people. it's just that the infected have something a bit more wet and messy to deal with than most of the folks living in the shadows.

At least normal runners have some choice in who they make deals with. Sure, some of those people might be on the gray side of the law, but it's pretty much guaranteed those who are in the trade of providing live metahumans for Infected to feast on definitely have black, oily hearts. I doubt people who sell other people like a pet store owner sells mice to feed to pythons is not the type to go home and hug his baby girl.

[Weaver95]

At least normal runners have some choice in who they make deals with. Sure, some of those people might be on the gray side of the law, but it's pretty much guaranteed those who are in the trade of providing live metahumans for Infected to feast on definitely have black, oily heart. I doubt people who sell other people like a pet store owner sells mice to feed to pythons is not the type to go home and hug his baby girl.

ghouls don't have feed on live people, just metahuman flesh. vampires, on the other hand, they need live people to drain essence. Of course, tamanous isn't exactly saying where they're getting the ghoul chow either so if you do your shopping in their marketplace then you're probably helping to cover up a murder by eating the evidence.

[Karoline]

ghouls don't have feed on live people, just metahuman flesh. vampires, on the other hand, they need live people to drain essence. Of course, tamanous isn't exactly saying where they're getting the ghoul chow either so if you do your shopping in their marketplace then you're probably helping to cover up a murder by eating the evidence.

The desire of law enforcement just adds to the flavor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[The Dragon Girl]

Yeah ghouls usually make arrangements with shadow friendly hospitol morgues. Or, you know.. get good with a shovel.

[The Dragon Girl]

My assassin has an 'arrangement' with a ghoul, for instance, at a good rate of pay I might add.

[Joe Chummer]

Yeah ghouls usually make arrangements with shadow friendly hospitol morgues. Or, you know.. get good with a shovel.

Eww.

Would embalmed corpses even taste good or provide any semblance of nutrition? I can't abide the smell of formaldehyde, let alone imagine what it TASTES like.

[Karoline]

Eww.

Would embalmed corpses even taste good or provide any semblance of nutrition? I can't abide the smell of formaldehyde, let alone imagine what it TASTES like.

It tastes worse than it smells. I'd imagine there are some bum graves and 'super secret bury your murder victims here' graves that most people know about that wouldn't be embalmed. But your standard graveyard, yeah, that might not be that great of a place to get your meat. Doesn't it have to be at least semi-fresh?

[The Dragon Girl]

It tastes worse than it smells. I'd imagine there are some bum graves and 'super secret bury your murder victims here' graves that most people know about that wouldn't be embalmed. But your standard graveyard, yeah, that might not be that great of a place to get your meat. Doesn't it have to be at least semi-fresh?

nope, actually is says decaying flesh is what they really want iirc

[Weaver95]

nope, actually is says decaying flesh is what they really want iirc

yup - ghouls like their dinner to be a little past the due date, if ya knows what I mean.

so it's likely that a lot of criminal organizations would have connections to the tammies. After all, you never known when you might need to dispose of an incidental corpse or three. and if the evidence gets eaten, it can't come back to haunt you later. Tamanous strips it for parts, lets it season for a bit in the barrens somewhere, then chops it and sells it for ghoul chow.

[The Dragon Girl]

yup - ghouls like their dinner to be a little past the due date, if ya knows what I mean.

so it's likely that a lot of criminal organizations would have connections to the tammies. After all, you never known when you might need to dispose of an incidental corpse or three. and if the evidence gets eaten, it can't come back to haunt you later. Tamanous strips it for parts, lets it season for a bit in the barrens somewhere, then chops it and sells it for ghoul chow.

Yup (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Although there are people besides Tamanous that the ghouls can make deals with. Heck there are even ghoul gangs and their source of (not)fresh bodies mentioned by name in at least one source book I can think of. (Corporate enclaves)

[Falconer]

*sigh*... I'm going to make a very strong point here.

Muspy has it right. There's no flaws in his reading here.

RAW is pretty much strictly... zombie apocalypse. It's a perfect illustration of what's wrong w/ half the things the current crop of authors write. They're authors, they do interesting fluff, but they don't think through the game effects of half of what they write. (EG: they don't write good rules half the time, and they don't catch them in playtesting/proofing; since RC/unwired this has seemed to be a problem when the quality control dropped).


Now, if you don't like it change it. But be carefull about what you change. There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ contact as a vector. If you don't like it being contact, don't fudge your way around contact... change it to injection. Read the rules, injection == aids (you come in contact w/ it and it gets in through a break in the skin, such as caused by ghoul claws/bites or some other injury).

On the disease rules, the only problem I see with them is that someone forgot that people use dice in this game... okay it's power 8. Automatic 8 successes to increase power after body reduces is where the problem w/ ALL diseases lie. If it was an opposed test I roll body, disease rolls power... increase/decrease power by net hits... rinse and repeat next day is simple and works.

As far as ghouls/infected... they're monsters for a reason. I see lots of attempts to make them 'not' monsters which make little to no sense.

[The Dragon Girl]

*sigh*... I'm going to make a very strong point here.

Muspy has it right. There's no flaws in his reading here.

RAW is pretty much strictly... zombie apocalypse. It's a perfect illustration of what's wrong w/ half the things the current crop of authors write. They're authors, they do good fluff, but they don't think through the game effects of half of what they write. (EG: they don't write good rules half the time, and they don't catch them in playtesting/proofing; since RC/unwired this has seemed to be a problem when the quality control dropped).


Now, if you don't like it change it. But be carefull about what you change. There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ contact as a vector. If you don't like it being contact, don't fudge your way around contact... change it to injection. Read the rules, injection == aids (you come in contact w/ it and it gets in through a break in the skin, such as caused by ghoul claws/bites).

On the disease rules, the only problem I see with them is that someone forgot that people use dice in this game... okay it's power 8. Automatic 8 successes to increase power after body reduces is where the problem w/ ALL diseases lie. If it was an opposed test I roll body, disease rolls power... increase/decrease power by net hits... rinse and repeat next day is simple and works.

As far as ghouls/infected... they're monsters for a reason. I see lots of attempts to make them 'not' monsters which make little to no sense.

The horror of what you become, what you have to do to survive, what you -will- do to survive, and who you become, is part of the appeal.

[Weaver95]

As far as ghouls/infected... they're monsters for a reason. I see lots of attempts to make them 'not' monsters which make little to no sense.

A recurring theme in transhumanist fiction is the definition of humanity. If we change form and function, do we change the essential definition of what it means to be 'human'? In that respect, playing one of the infected makes a certain kind of sense. victims of circumstance, forced to consume human flesh in order to survive - do they become the monsters everyone expects them to be, or do they try to find a way to rise above their condition? can they come to terms with the disease without losing what it means to be 'human'?

monsters we are lest monsters we become.

[Weaver95]

Yup (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Although there are people besides Tamanous that the ghouls can make deals with. Heck there are even ghoul gangs and their source of (not)fresh bodies mentioned by name in at least one source book I can think of. (Corporate enclaves)

not only that, but a lot of the street docs might want a local ghoul pack on call just to dispose of the odd body that comes out of an unsuccessful run.

there was mention of one of the street ddcs working on/around glow city who has started to tag patients with RFID. when something finally kills them, he can follow the signal, retrieve the body and sell it as ghoul chow.

[Falconer]

At which point go play Vampire... the original point of vampire was to regain your humanity way back when.

But then some folks thought, why would I want to be lunch when I can be an even more powerfull vamp. Or in other words... coming to terms w/ your new pariah monster status.


The point still stands... if you insist on playing a ghoul... you are a monster. You are a threat to society at large. There are bounties on you for good reason. Don't expect much sympathy or anything to be easy. Especially don't expect other non-infected runners to want to socialize or work with you.

What are other players supposed to think... why don't I just cap this thing and collect the bounty? Do I want to become one of these things also?

[Karoline]

[plug]My SR Zombie Game[/plug]

Go Zombie Apocalypse.

[Weaver95]

What are other players supposed to think...

'Yo Igor, job opportunity - go gnaw on that corpsec guard while I finish hacking this node!'

[Joe Chummer]

This is probably a stupid question, but for the Infection power, if a character is reduced to 0 essence and then makes at least 1 net Body + Willpower hits against the Infected's Magic + Charisma, then that character dies, right? Death seems kinda like a raw deal for winning the test.

I'm also assuming that, per the RC rules, your GM could allow you to continue playing your character as an Infected (rather than relegating the character to NPC status). So if your character got turned mid-campaign, given the inherent challenges with being an essence-ovore, would you want to continue playing as a member of the Infected?

[wind_in_the_ston...]

I'm just curious - has anyone actually run a campaign (standard 400 pt or otherwise) that allowed for ghoul, vampire or other infected characters/concepts? If so, how did they stack up with the other players in your group?

I'm considering allowing a ghoul player character into my up and coming SR4 game and thought I'd ask the experts before I give the nod to my player(s). feedback welcome! positive, negative, or whatever you gots to say on the topic I wanna hear it.

Yes. I've played ghouls twice. The first time was back in SR3. I played a full mage. Physical Mask spell so I could go out in public. I don't recall any teammates having an issue with me being a ghoul, so we must not have done much roleplaying with that aspect.

The second time was last year. I must say that the contact vector coupled with the high power is stupid. House rule that away. This character (handed to me by the GM) was an adept. I was a melee monster, with all the attribute points granted by the infection. There were a couple of characters that I had fun interactions with. We were a shadowrunning team, fully owned by a benefactor who provided me with my food. It was a short-lived campaign, but I'm sure the character would have been viable over the long haul.

[Weaver95]

This is probably a stupid question, but for the Infection power, if a character is reduced to 0 essence and then makes at least 1 net Body + Willpower hits against the Infected's Magic + Charisma, then that character dies, right? Death seems kinda like a raw deal for winning the test.

infection is a curse, remember? you really aren't supposed to want to come back from death. especially as a soul sucking, blood drinking horror of the night.

One thing that the rules all take great pains to point out is that essence does not regenerate. you drain a little bit of someone's soul and it doesn't come back. well for most people anyway. that's the sort of thing that really has to hit home to anyone playing a vampire. ESPECIALLY if they're a mage. they can see that they're polluting astral space when they feed. even if it's only a little bit at a time, they're doing something fundamentally wrong and they know it.

but that's the price of power and immortality.

[Joe Chummer]

So, how exactly does a wendigo infect somebody with HMHVV? If it got its victim down to 0 Essence, the victim likely doesn't have any body parts left because the wendigo ate them all already.

I'm just picturing an Infected metatype with no arms and legs, being wheeled around on a cart, acting all fierce and such.

[The Dragon Girl]

At which point go play Vampire... the original point of vampire was to regain your humanity way back when.

But then some folks thought, why would I want to be lunch when I can be an even more powerfull vamp. Or in other words... coming to terms w/ your new pariah monster status.


The point still stands... if you insist on playing a ghoul... you are a monster. You are a threat to society at large. There are bounties on you for good reason. Don't expect much sympathy or anything to be easy. Especially don't expect other non-infected runners to want to socialize or work with you.

What are other players supposed to think... why don't I just cap this thing and collect the bounty? Do I want to become one of these things also?

But why play a vampire when you can play something thats much more horrifying, no neat tidy blood letting. You are consuming decayed metahuman flesh, and its not like you have he draw of power and influence that a vampire has.. no -character- would want to be a ghoul, but the player might. ..Plus theres that risk of going completely insane, not all ghouls survive the fever with their minds intact.

as for what the other teammates would think?
..well my assassin is in love with a ghoul doctor who was infected in his line of work. He struggles with what he is... and she pretty much only takes the wetwork jobs to make sure the silly slotter doesn't starve to death. And they're both rather upset that neither one of them is having troubles keeping their lunch over the whole business anymore. They pretty much keep each other sane, and more human than they would be otherwise. ...and hes asked her to put a bullet through him if he ever goes off the deep end.

[Starmage21]

infection is a curse, remember? you really aren't supposed to want to come back from death. especially as a soul sucking, blood drinking horror of the night.

One thing that the rules all take great pains to point out is that essence does not regenerate. you drain a little bit of someone's soul and it doesn't come back. well for most people anyway. that's the sort of thing that really has to hit home to anyone playing a vampire. ESPECIALLY if they're a mage. they can see that they're polluting astral space when they feed. even if it's only a little bit at a time, they're doing something fundamentally wrong and they know it.

but that's the price of power and immortality.

Doesnt mean you cant have a little fun until your ride on the "immortality train" is over. After awhile, most of the ageless creatures are going to get freaking bored and off themselves. It takes a certain kind of personality to live through eons.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

The point still stands... if you insist on playing a ghoul... you are a monster. You are a threat to society at large.

And this is different from being a shadowrunner how? Ghouls just have a different preference of the loot they take home from shadowruns.

[Tachi]

A recurring theme in transhumanist fiction is the definition of humanity. If we change form and function, do we change the essential definition of what it means to be 'human'? In that respect, playing one of the infected makes a certain kind of sense. victims of circumstance, forced to consume human flesh in order to survive - do they become the monsters everyone expects them to be, or do they try to find a way to rise above their condition? can they come to terms with the disease without losing what it means to be 'human'?

monsters we are lest monsters we become.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
Frederich Neitzsche
Beyond Good and Evil
Aphorism 146

If you look into the abyss long enough, you will become the abyss. No ghoul, no matter how good of a person they may have started out, can remain good indefinately. They all eventually succumb to the abyss. You can only eat people for so long before you become a cannibal at heart.

[toturi]

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
Frederich Neitzsche
Beyond Good and Evil
Aphorism 146

If you look into the abyss long enough, you will become the abyss. No ghoul, no matter how good of a person they may have started out, can remain good indefinately. They all eventually succumb to the abyss. You can only eat people for so long before you become a cannibal at heart.

Ah, that's why you make sure that the abyss blinks first. When you gaze into the abyss long enough, it will blink. The weak succumb to the abyss, the strong makes the abyss avoid their gaze.

[LurkerOutThere]

Ok first off to the OP: I have both run for and played ghoul characters. I have found they had no problems in previous editions froma power level standpoint in fact they were a little on the weak side. In fourth edition as long as your not being too silly with the contact vector I don't forsee a problem. It is in fact the most glaring issue with ghoul characters. Vampires and Nosferatue are more tricky due to their increasing power level and the need of the team to work around their schedule.

Every ghoul I have ever played or ran for have been fairly low key. They've taken steps to hide their status and have generally observed their own ghoulish habits from anything from a character defining tragic addiction to an annoyance. Actually the biggest problem one of my ghouls had with his status was not only was he forced to consume metahuman flesh but he couldn't eat cooked meat period. Which even though his physiology could handle it, he found it disgusting.

Also one important thing to bear in mind, depending on the tribe and geography many cultures especially amongst native americans a high value is not placed on the disposition of remains. A body is just a body at some point. I can't see the sixth world, given that it is supposidly horribly loose on many other morals building it's entrenched moral perogative on canibalism. It can be a victimless affliction.

[Stahlseele]

Technically, Ghouls could be used as Shedim-Prevention . .

[Karoline]

Vampires and Nosferatue are more tricky due to their increasing power level and the need of the team to work around their schedule.

Nosferatu have a schedule problem, Vampires don't really. They just need to put on some sun glasses and wear an armored longcoat and they should be more or less fine. They only have a light allergy. That's like... they sneeze fairly often in sunlight.

[Weaver95]

Nosferatu have a schedule problem, Vampires don't really. They just need to put on some sun glasses and wear an armored longcoat and they should be more or less fine. They only have a light allergy. That's like... they sneeze fairly often in sunlight.

Hey, at least they don't sparkle.

[Stahlseele]

Nah, that's the immoral elves . .

[Mordinvan]

Well, aside from whatever legal troubles you might get from, say, making deals with the Devil *COUGH!* er, Tamanous.

How uncreative you are. Get a bone marrow sample from a willing donar, and have them clone it and use it to produce blood using the med tech in augmentation. As for the essence requirement, eat clones. They have no sin, and so its not illegal.

[Joe Chummer]

How uncreative you are. Get a bone marrow sample from a willing donar, and have them clone it and use it to produce blood using the med tech in augmentation. As for the essence requirement, eat clones. They have no sin, and so its not illegal.

First off, from what I understand, growing clones is EXPENSIVE, and the average ghoul character is not going to be extravagantly wealthy. Also, full clones don't grow very fast, which means you'd need a LOT of them to keep you fed on a regular basis.

If growing clones was a cheap, fast, and viable option for ghoul characters, then why doesn't Tamanous do that? Then they wouldn't have to cut open non-cloned people to sell organs on the black market.

[Weaver95]

First off, from what I understand, growing clones is EXPENSIVE, and the average ghoul character is not going to be extravagantly wealthy. Also, full clones don't grow very fast, which means you'd need a LOT of them to keep you fed on a regular basis.

Maybe it wouldn't be necessary to grow a FULL clone, maybe just the bits with more nutritional value. And it wouldn't have to be a perfect clone either, esp since ghouls like their dinner to be past the due date anyways. I wonder how difficult it would be to mass produce cloned organs, esp if they didn't exactly have to be completely functional....?

If growing clones was a cheap, fast, and viable option for ghoul characters, then why doesn't Tamanous do that? Then they wouldn't have to cut open non-cloned people to sell organs on the black market.

well...I don't think the tammies are interested in legitimate bio-tech startups. they fill a particular niche in the underground market and one not likely to crop up among the masses of office drones and SINers.

[Mordinvan]

First off, from what I understand, growing clones is EXPENSIVE, and the average ghoul character is not going to be extravagantly wealthy. Also, full clones don't grow very fast, which means you'd need a LOT of them to keep you fed on a regular basis.

If growing clones was a cheap, fast, and viable option for ghoul characters, then why doesn't Tamanous do that? Then they wouldn't have to cut open non-cloned people to sell organs on the black market.

Wasn't thinking ghoul. Was thinking vampire. Ghouls can eat from hospital wastes.

[Mordinvan]

Also SR4 has made it reasonably simple to fake money, which you can then launder, and turn into real money to pay for the clones. Or you can shell out for a facility and grow your own.

[Joe Chummer]

Also SR4 has made it reasonably simple to fake money, which you can then launder, and turn into real money to pay for the clones. Or you can shell out for a facility and grow your own.

But there's still the issue of growth rate. I can't recall how fast you can grow a fully adult clone, but just so long as your conscience is fine with draining the life out of a toddler every once in a while...

And this makes me think of a slightly off-topic but valid question:

An unmodified adult human has an Essence of 6, but does a newborn start with 6 Essence the moment it emerges from the womb, or does it gain Essence points as it matures towards adulthood? I mean, I highly doubt a toddler can handle as much cyberware or provide as much drinkable blood as a grownup can.

A cybered toddler. That thought makes me cringe.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

I highly doubt a toddler can handle as much cyberware or provide as much drinkable blood as a grownup can.

A cybered toddler. That thought makes me cringe.

Sure it can. It's just limited by the size of the implants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

When in doubt, don't allow such characters as PCs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Joe Chummer]

Sure it can. It's just limited by the size of the implants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

When in doubt, don't allow such characters as PCs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I wasn't suggesting toddlers as PCs. It was more for the sake of argument of how "nutritious" a clone that's been grown to toddler age would be for a vampire.

I mean, if, say, a toddler had only 1 or 2 points of essence because it's not that big yet, is it worth farming clones to that age if all you're going to get is little more than a snack?

[Dahrken]

There is a glitch : Essence Drain only works on a SENTIENT being, so IMHO a mindless, blank clone fresh from the vat won't provide a vampire with what he need, and neither an adult brain-dead from an accident.

A more ethical possiblity would be Essence-draining voluntary subject, and use the restoration genetic therapy to "repair" what you've taken from them. But it is hideously expensive (275.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per essence point).

[Karoline]

There is a glitch : Essence Drain only works on a SENTIENT being, so IMHO a mindless, blank clone fresh from the vat won't provide a vampire with what he need, and neither an adult brain-dead from an accident.

A more ethical possiblity would be Essence-draining voluntary subject, and use the restoration genetic therapy to "repair" what you've taken from them. But it is hideously expensive (275.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per essence point).

Or you could just offer the dregs of the sixth world 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to let you drain some of their essence. The best part is that people who are drained become addicted, so they would come back to you and beg to be drained again. "Okay, I'll drain you again, but I don't really need it, so I'll only give you 500." "Yeah, sure, whatever man, just do it!"

[Weaver95]

Or you could just offer the dregs of the sixth world 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to let you drain some of their essence. The best part is that people who are drained become addicted, so they would come back to you and beg to be drained again. "Okay, I'll drain you again, but I don't really need it, so I'll only give you 500." "Yeah, sure, whatever man, just do it!"

There's also plenty of people who you could drain that nobody would care about - pimps, gang bangers, low level drug dealers, various and sundry cheap thugs. A vampire could decide to feed only on the 'dregs of society' and probably do quite well for itself. In fact, you could even say they were doing the local community a favor.

[Karoline]

There's also plenty of people who you could drain that nobody would care about - pimps, gang bangers, low level drug dealers, various and sundry cheap thugs. A vampire could decide to feed only on the 'dregs of society' and probably do quite well for itself. In fact, you could even say they were doing the local community a favor.

I'm not a horrible monster, I'm just societies equivalent of a garbage man. I take out the trash (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Traul]

Here comes the horrid truth: Batman is a vampire.

[Stahlseele]

No matter how much you try and justify it, after all is said and done, no matter what justification, ghouls and vampires are still sick and twisted leeches on legs, eating and drinking the flesh and blood of (meta)humans.

[Mordinvan]

There is a glitch : Essence Drain only works on a SENTIENT being, so IMHO a mindless, blank clone fresh from the vat won't provide a vampire with what he need, and neither an adult brain-dead from an accident.

A more ethical possiblity would be Essence-draining voluntary subject, and use the restoration genetic therapy to "repair" what you've taken from them. But it is hideously expensive (275.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per essence point).

Only if you grow it to adult hood.
A nine month old baby clone on the other hand would work just fine.

[Dahrken]

...and would probably qualify as a human being, making the legality of the whole process rather dubious.

Wimps for cloned transplants are grown without the higher brain structures IMHO not only because they are not necessary for their intended purpose, but also to allow their harvesting without possible legal complications.

[nezumi]

I've done a ghoul in SR3 (character was infected during gameplay). The party already knew him, and he had some tools to hide his nature. Since he was an adept, it didn't suck nearly as much as it could have. He didn't last long, unfortunately, when a team member cast fireball nearby in a room coated with highly flammable paranormal monster goo, booby-trapped with napalm bombs, while the character carried half a dozen C-4 detonators and a few parcels of C-4. It was... a quick roll.


I've considered adding a mopey, emo vampire who chastely pursues high school girls, but haven't gotten around to it yet.