![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() ![]()
Post
#1
|
|
Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,272 Joined: 22-June 10 From: Omaha. NE Member No.: 18,746 ![]() |
1) As far as I can see, it's cheaper to take a level of Submersion and a point of Resonance than to simply take that last point of Resonance. Is this correct or am I missing something:
Example: From 5/6 Resonance to 6/6 Resonance costs 25 points. Taking a level of Submersion and buying the Resonance gets you to 6/7 Resonance, gives you and Echo and costs 23 points. Going to 7/8 Resonance from there would cost only 26 points (as compared to 7/7's 25 points) but I wouldn't turn down another Echo for the cost of a single BP. 2) Do Dronomancers need control rigs? As far as I can tell, the control rig exists as a set of inputs and feedback for the node that is connected to the drone. It seems to me that the control rig isn't even connected in any conventional way to the the node that is the will of the Dronomancers/Technomancer. As I read the rules on it, I'm not even sure it gives it's +2 to Dronomancers. "The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is “jumped into” a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix. Is what a Dronomancer does considered full VR or is it something beyond that? |
|
|
![]()
Post
#2
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 23-June 10 Member No.: 18,749 ![]() |
yup. Same goes for magic users.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#3
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
Dronomancers do NOT need a control rig. in 4th, it is not required to jump in(just vr), but it gives a substantial bonus when you do. Additionally, it stacks with the Immersion echo, for when you really need +2 to all vehicle tests, and a further +2 to all tests while jumped in.
Honestly, if you're playing a dronomancer, show your DM unwired 136 - with the new Unrated Complex Forms, point out that they can duplicate smartlink and simrig cyberware, and take a Control Rig complex form. However, you can't Submerge or Initiate in BP gen. But yes, you're right. It would work better in karmagen, but that system doesn't penalize you unfairly(in my opinion) for maxing out a stat, so the necessity of the trick doesn't really apply there. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#4
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
1) As far as I can see, it's cheaper to take a level of Submersion and a point of Resonance than to simply take that last point of Resonance. Is this correct or am I missing something: Example: From 5/6 Resonance to 6/6 Resonance costs 25 points. Taking a level of Submersion and buying the Resonance gets you to 6/7 Resonance, gives you and Echo and costs 23 points. Going to 7/8 Resonance from there would cost only 26 points (as compared to 7/7's 25 points) but I wouldn't turn down another Echo for the cost of a single BP. The 25 cost for capping at 6 Resonance/Magic is only for Chargen. There is no additional or increased cost for raising it to that with karma in-game. And going from 6 to 7 would be 35 karma (new rating x5). 2) Do Dronomancers need control rigs? As far as I can tell, the control rig exists as a set of inputs and feedback for the node that is connected to the drone. It seems to me that the control rig isn't even connected in any conventional way to the the node that is the will of the Dronomancers/Technomancer. As I read the rules on it, I'm not even sure it gives it's +2 to Dronomancers. "The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is “jumped into” a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix. Is what a Dronomancer does considered full VR or is it something beyond that? Drone rigs are not required for jumping into or otherwise rigging. They simply give a dicepool bonus if you have one. In earlier editions they were required, but in 4th Ed it is no longer the case. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#5
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
1) As far as I can see, it's cheaper to take a level of Submersion and a point of Resonance than to simply take that last point of Resonance. Is this correct or am I missing something: Example: From 5/6 Resonance to 6/6 Resonance costs 25 points. Taking a level of Submersion and buying the Resonance gets you to 6/7 Resonance, gives you and Echo and costs 23 points. Going to 7/8 Resonance from there would cost only 26 points (as compared to 7/7's 25 points) but I wouldn't turn down another Echo for the cost of a single BP. Main problem with that is that you cannot submerge in BP chargen, so your tactic isn't viable. You are however slightly better off waiting for play to start and paying 30 karma for that 6th resonance than buying it for 25 BP. Of course on the other hand, that 6th point lets you get rating 6 CFs with BP (which is way cheaper than with karm) and you'll likely have 500 other things to be spending karma on anyway as a TM. As for control rigs, no on needs them, but anyone that will be rigging should have them. And yeah, they work fine for a TM, TMs go VR just like anyone else, except that they don't need any tech to do so. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#6
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,091 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#7
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#8
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,091 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
But a smartlink and simrig work on the same simsense mode of the Control rig, so might as well allow it as a complex form for 2 dice bonus (like a smartlink) A control rig is supposed to be sort of a coprocessor to assist the brain, that's not something which can be emulated by running another "program" inside the brain. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#9
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 ![]() |
A control rig is supposed to be sort of a coprocessor to assist the brain, that's not something which can be emulated by running another "program" inside the brain. A biofeedback filter used to be the same way A smartlink is a coprocessor unit, running a dedicated program to assist the user A simrig is a multi-processor unit that records simsense data generated by the user |
|
|
![]()
Post
#10
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,091 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
OK, so you think it's possible to get another CPU core by running a program on the existing one(s)?
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#11
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 ![]() |
OK, so you think it's possible to get another CPU core by running a program on the existing one(s)? It's not so much getting a cpu core for a TM as emulating the effects. A TM has no CPU! the complex forms account for them altering their neural pathways to work a certain way that emulates having the items in question. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#12
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,091 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#13
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 ![]() |
A TM has his brain. The control rig adds a dedicated coprocessor, which increases the brain's computing power. Emulating the effect of faster hardware by running another program on the existing hardware is not possible. You assume that it works like software, vs a hardware upgrade to the system So explain how a bit of software allows for simsense recording and smartlinks but not the control rig emulation of hardware to be done by a TM's brain? |
|
|
![]()
Post
#14
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,091 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
You assume that it works like software, vs a hardware upgrade to the system ...because hardware upgrades would be echoes. QUOTE So explain how a bit of software allows for simsense recording and smartlinks but not the control rig emulation of hardware to be done by a TM's brain? Does any of the two increase the computing power of the brain? If not for game balance reasons, smartlinks would just be a piece of software. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#15
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 ![]() |
Does any of the two increase the computing power of the brain? If not for game balance reasons, smartlinks would just be a piece of software. Both do, because they are processor units that have hardware in them to run specialized programs. Smartlink: has to run the smartlink software, do multiple calculations for body posture, gun status, etc.. Simrig: has to process the data it is given and run multiple conversions in real time to make it a machine readable format on the storage media (and it's a lot more processor intense than a smartlink hence the higher essence cost of an implant) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#16
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Both do, because they are processor units that have hardware in them to run specialized programs. Smartlink: has to run the smartlink software, do multiple calculations for body posture, gun status, etc.. Not really. You just need a smartlink on a gun (camera) and a smartlink on your glasses (special display). No where is there mention of a computer chip being installed in your contact lens so that it can do all kinds of fancy calculations. And in honesty, if the computer chip is that small, it isn't a major resource hog. I'd imagine the TM's mind could handle that minimal load. QUOTE Simrig: has to process the data it is given and run multiple conversions in real time to make it a machine readable format on the storage media (and it's a lot more processor intense than a smartlink hence the higher essence cost of an implant) Except that a TM already does this naturally anyway. They can naturally turn their thought into computer based instructions, and turn computer based instructions into something their mind can understand. So no, the ability to add their other senses to the equation isn't a point of needing extra processing power to do so, it is simply a point of knowing how to read and transmit the extra senses, hense a CF. There already is an echo that mimics the control rig, so there is no reason to have a CF that also mimics the control rig. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#17
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 ![]() |
forgot about the immersion echo, hadn't really played TM riggers.
But the question was more on implants doing the work vs a pair of goggles or an external module. You can't buy an external control rig for your commlink... |
|
|
![]()
Post
#18
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,091 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
Both do, because they are processor units that have hardware in them to run specialized programs I see you are finally getting closer to understanding the difference: The important thing about smartlinks are the targeting algorithms which generate a certain output from input data. This can easily be emulated in software. A control rig, on the other hand, is about the simple processing power, not about the programs which run on it. That can't be generated by software, not matter what vendors of bogus utilities try to tell you. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#19
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
What exactly is the argument here? There's the Control Rig, and there's the Echo that acts roughly the same. There's no Control Rig software or CF, but who said there was? It looks like someone just misspoke: they meant Echo and said CF. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#20
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
What exactly is the argument here? There's the Control Rig, and there's the Echo that acts roughly the same. There's no Control Rig software or CF, but who said there was? It looks like someone just misspoke: they meant Echo and said CF. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) No, someone was saying that there should be a CF that could mimic the Control Rig. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#21
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Oh, I see it now. Thanks! Carry on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
And, shame on you, MortVent. A CF that replaces an Echo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#22
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
Oh, I see it now. Thanks! Carry on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) And, shame on you, MortVent. A CF that replaces an Echo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) strictly speaking, the echo stacks with the cyberware as i recall. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#23
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
Oh, I see it now. Thanks! Carry on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) And, shame on you, MortVent. A CF that replaces an Echo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It does not replace it. The echo is -far- superior. A control rig is a cyberware only piece of headware(0.5 essence/10K) that provides +2 dice to all Vehicle tests while Jumped in. Immersion is an echo that grants a technomancer a +1 dice pool bonus for all tests while he is "jumped in" and may be taken twice. To clarify, Immersion applies in -every- situation, as long as you're jumped in. Using a drone as a relay to hack? Immersion to Hacking, EW, Matrix perception tests. Using a drone surgeon with a satlink to save someone's life from across the city in the middle ofa firefight? Immersion to Medicine, ECCM tests to resist being jammed on the fly, initiative checks, firewall+analyze tests to detect incoming hackers. Everything while jumped in. Everything everything. Immersion is expensive in terms of karma, but its a seriously underrated echo. They also stack. A TM with a point of ware and immersion gains +4 dice on vehicle tests while jumped in, such as, say, Gunnery. Now factor in the hotsim bonus, gunnery(Ballistic) spec, a Sensors specialty on perception, and the multiprocessing echo to Observe In Detail w/ AR or VR to make Sensor tests - such as Sensor Lockon Tests as a free action, and the extra dice starts to look really, really scary. That being said. A simrig external accessory is a fancy trodenet that costs 1000Y/12A (a portion of 1bp) A simrig can also be a bodyware implant, at 5000Y/8A, and 0.5 essence. (1bp) An external smartgun system accessory costs 400Y/A4Restricted, and gives a +2 to shooting people, but only with a smartlink. A smartlink is a eyeware-only system, with no external accessories available, costing 1000Y/8R and 0.1 essence, and pairs with a smartgun to give a good bonus. A control rig is a headware only implant, that can't be taken elsewhere in the system. It costs 10000Y/8A, and 0.5 essence, and adds +2 dice to Vehicle tests while jumped in. (2bp) A TM can take both Simrig and Smartlink as complex forms, for 1BP or two karma in play. They're both pieces of cyberware, clearly TMs can learn to replicate the ability of some cyberware that deals with VR/Simsense data. (Use some common senseTaking a muscle replacement as a complex form is stupid. Taking a smartlink is not.) I don't see any real reason why a technomancer shouldn't be able to learn a Control Rig complex form, particularly for a stream focusing around the concept of drone manipulation. No, the real issue is costs. What Should a technomancer pay to get a bonus hackers do? There's two sides to the arguement. One, that TM's 'have' to pay essence to get a bonus any hacker gets to enjoy, which means their resonance 5 costs 25bp due to the lowered cap. 13 karma(which can be discounted down to 11 or (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) for a 'mere' +1, even a really good one +1, especially when there's other echoes out there doesn't seem quite right either. Then there's the flipside - isn't it a little unfair to let a TM take a 2BP implant, at no essence loss, for 1bp? Sure, but it counts against their Logx2 limit on complex forms, isn't that a fair trade? Fair trade, hardly, now it doesn't count against the money limit! Et cetera. It goes on. But yeah. I don't think its imbalanced for TMs to have the ability to learn a Control Rig complex form. I would, however, impliment it as a sort of...... Unrated complex form with two levels - in the sense that if you have it, you get the bonus, it can't be threaded up because it just gives a flat +2, just to preserve costs because.... lets face it, a control rig is a fairly powerful bonus. So a TM would pay 2 karma to learn a new complex form(control rig), and two more to bring it to R2, and then they've fully learned it and get the bonus, for a grand total of 4 karma. in BP gen, it'd be two points, the same costs for a cyberhacker. Just, you know, more resonancey. Thats my take on it, anyway. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#24
|
|
Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#25
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
I've always thought that software emulation of existing dedicated hardware would be a major boon for A.I.s.
Technomancers, on the other hand, already have it easy enough that they don't need the boost. Also, why bother with Rigging when you can go Remote Control and throw obscene dice for every task on the books? Jumped-in Riggers Dodge with Response (capped at 6,) Remote Control Riggers Dodge with Command (Thread me to 2x Resonance.) Jumped-in Riggers shoot with Skill + Sensor (capped at 6,) Remote Control Riggers shoot with Skill + Command (yeah, everything is handled by Command.) Also, because Command is a Matrix action, it can benefit from Sprite assistance. Jumped in actions aren't Matrix actions by definition. Being Spoof-proof is a big boon, but you've got to invest a lot to make it worth it. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#26
|
|
Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 ![]() |
Just remember most actions takes longer when using Command to do them.
Control Device, p229 SR4A: "Note that if the action to be performed is normally a Simple Action, performing it through the Control Device action is still a Complex Action." |
|
|
![]()
Post
#27
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
Anything less than a full burst is a cop-out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#28
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 ![]() |
With command being a complex action, most will use focus fire rules on drones
Group A focus attacks on target C Group B focus attacks on target R Another thing is many will simply use a script on the drones, where they are given targeting parameters and operations to do on a set signal (think IC/Agent scripting) If target takes a single round with minimal damage, upgrade to narrow burst fire, loop to full auto narrow So the rigger sends a simple action to transmit target id and the drones operate by their scripts |
|
|
![]()
Post
#29
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
Thats just blatandly wrong, smartlink is a vision enchament and as such can be had in anythink that takes those including contact lenses. Sorry, yes, I should clarify what i meant. As a cyberware system, the only way to get it is through eyeware - no capacity in cyberlimbs, for example. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#30
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
It does not replace it. The echo is -far- superior. A control rig is a cyberware only piece of headware(0.5 essence/10K) that provides +2 dice to all Vehicle tests while Jumped in. Immersion is an echo that grants a technomancer a +1 dice pool bonus for all tests while he is "jumped in" and may be taken twice. And yet, 2 karma for a CF is far cheaper than the cost of two submersions to get the two echos. So sure, the CF wouldn't 'replace' the echo, it would just be about 1/15th the cost for about 9/10ths of the benefit (Remember that gunnery is a vehicle skill) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#31
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
I didn't mean it was an *identical* replacement, but carry on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#32
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
With command being a complex action, most will use focus fire rules on drones Group A focus attacks on target C Group B focus attacks on target R Another thing is many will simply use a script on the drones, where they are given targeting parameters and operations to do on a set signal (think IC/Agent scripting) If target takes a single round with minimal damage, upgrade to narrow burst fire, loop to full auto narrow So the rigger sends a simple action to transmit target id and the drones operate by their scripts funny how this comes up every single time anyone mentions using command program/CF. please, try to understand the rules before giving advice on them. if you don't understand the rules, then *ask* for advice on them. issuing a command is not the same thing as using the command program/CF. in fact, the two have very little in common. issuing a command to a drone is a simple action and the drone performs the task using its own abilities on its own initiative, and never uses the command program/CF at all, in any way, shape, or form. you can issue a command to multiple drones subscribed as one, but it must be the same command to all drones. the drones could misunderstand the command if it is something they are not programmed for, although certain programs can help with this problem. the drone can be spoofed with any order. using the command program/CF to control a drone is a complex action and the controller operates the drone using their own skill and the command program, on the operator's initiative. you can only operate one drone in this manner per action. there is no chance for a misunderstanding, because the drone is directly controlled by the operator, and has absolutely no ability to act on its own. it is probably also immune to most spoofs, other than the spoofed command to switch out of remote operation mode. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#33
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 ![]() |
funny how this comes up every single time anyone mentions using command program/CF. please, try to understand the rules before giving advice on them. if you don't understand the rules, then *ask* for advice on them. issuing a command is not the same thing as using the command program/CF. in fact, the two have very little in common. issuing a command to a drone is a simple action and the drone performs the task using its own abilities on its own initiative, and never uses the command program/CF at all, in any way, shape, or form. you can issue a command to multiple drones subscribed as one, but it must be the same command to all drones. the drones could misunderstand the command if it is something they are not programmed for, although certain programs can help with this problem. the drone can be spoofed with any order. using the command program/CF to control a drone is a complex action and the controller operates the drone using their own skill and the command program, on the operator's initiative. you can only operate one drone in this manner per action. there is no chance for a misunderstanding, because the drone is directly controlled by the operator, and has absolutely no ability to act on its own. it is probably also immune to most spoofs, other than the spoofed command to switch out of remote operation mode. Which is why most will use the issue command option to run scripts on the drones vs a command program. Can use 2 simple actions to handle orders for multiple drones or groups. Hell you can have the drones scripted to respond to a free action spoken word for some orders |
|
|
![]()
Post
#34
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
And yet, 2 karma for a CF is far cheaper than the cost of two submersions to get the two echos. So sure, the CF wouldn't 'replace' the echo, it would just be about 1/15th the cost for about 9/10ths of the benefit (Remember that gunnery is a vehicle skill) Yes, which is why I suggested houseruling it to cost the same as it equivalent karma/BP as it does for a cyberhacker. If a technomancer WANTS to jump in and rig it up, instead of threadwhoring a command of 12 or more, i say let em. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#35
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
Which is why most will use the issue command option to run scripts on the drones vs a command program. Can use 2 simple actions to handle orders for multiple drones or groups. Hell you can have the drones scripted to respond to a free action spoken word for some orders the problem is that the two are not interchangeable. your drone is not going to have anywhere near the kind of ridiculous dicepool a technomancer can get using command. up to 18 dice from the command program *alone* are possible at chargen (CF base at 6, assist operation from a sprite for 6 more, and you can thread the command CF up to double it's base... so another 6). throw in a skill for up to 6 more points, a specialisation for an additional +2 (remote operation for pilot skills, ballistic most likely for gunnery, and vehicle for several other skills like dodge or infiltration), and hot sim for another +2 and you're throwing 28 dice straight out of chargen. as compared to the 10 dice which are about the best you can hope for out of a drone even after chargen (excluding handling, smartlink, and sprite powers that could potentially be applied to either). seriously, a tricked out (and very heavily specialised) technomancer can be throwing down 20 dice on a dodge test before full dodge as soon as you start playing. a drone will be throwing 6, *if* you blow a bunch of money on a rating 6 response chip and pilot program (neither of which are available by default in chargen without the use of qualities). this is not even remotely comparable. heck, there are probably dodge adepts who dream of having that kind of passive dodge pool. (admittedly, 6 of those points use up sprite services, but you at least have the option, and even if it was "only" 12 that's still extremely high... and in any case, i think long term registering would make assist operation much more appealing). |
|
|
![]()
Post
#36
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Yup, that's why Technomancer pools should be capped harder. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#37
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 ![]() |
the problem is that the two are not interchangeable. your drone is not going to have anywhere near the kind of ridiculous dicepool a technomancer can get using command. up to 18 dice from the command program *alone* are possible at chargen (CF base at 6, assist operation from a sprite for 6 more, and you can thread the command CF up to double it's base... so another 6). throw in a skill for up to 6 more points, a specialisation for an additional +2 (remote operation for pilot skills, ballistic most likely for gunnery, and vehicle for several other skills like dodge or infiltration), and hot sim for another +2 and you're throwing 28 dice straight out of chargen. as compared to the 10 dice which are about the best you can hope for out of a drone even after chargen (excluding handling, smartlink, and sprite powers that could potentially be applied to either). seriously, a tricked out (and very heavily specialised) technomancer can be throwing down 20 dice on a dodge test before full dodge as soon as you start playing. a drone will be throwing 6, *if* you blow a bunch of money on a rating 6 response chip and pilot program (neither of which are available by default in chargen without the use of qualities). this is not even remotely comparable. heck, there are probably dodge adepts who dream of having that kind of passive dodge pool. (admittedly, 6 of those points use up sprite services, but you at least have the option, and even if it was "only" 12 that's still extremely high... and in any case, i think long term registering would make assist operation much more appealing). You are comparing one drone vs several drones. Don't need a tricked out drone for a group of drones (combat drones have security rated systems and hardware.. iirc 4, so add ECCM 4 + Encrypt 4 + Stealth 4 + Analyze 4 to run on them in regards to software) And a scripted dog brain is not subject to jamming (if it can take orders verbally given) and multiple units working in a tacnet is better than 1 unit without. And where is your uber TM rigger? Is he riding behind the drone in a wheelchair while rigged into it? Meaning he has no dodge roll to attacks against his meat body. What happens when he loses connection? And heaven forbid your drone have to deal with some HTR security armed with the right tools to render it scrap, like grenades or area effect spells. Or something as simple as a smart jammer or static spell. And lets not forget a personal favorite: glue/web spells or equipment like freeze foam. I'd rather have a couple dog brains working under my control with decent skills and tech, where I'm not dead meat slung over someone's shoulder or on a mobile chair because I can't remote rig the uber drone. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#38
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
I don't understand what you're arguing against. It's the Technomancer that's tricked out, not the drone(s). That's kind of the whole point. You can jump from one drone to another. You can get matrix access from anywhere on the planet, and jamming problems affect all riggers equally… except, perhaps, for the nifty Resonance cheats that Technomancers can get. You can also be in a vehicle, safe and sound, instead of out in the open for no reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#39
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
You are comparing one drone vs several drones. you still seem to be missing my point. the situations in which you would use either method is completely different. comparing them as if they are both equivalent options is absurd. they are not. neither option is used for the same thing. there is never a time when the two options are in direct competition to each other. you are never going to decide whether you should use the command program/CF to control multiple drones, or to get other drones to do things using their own actions. you are never going to decide whether to use issuing orders to directly control one drone, or to use one drone more effectively than you could many drones. the two choices are never in direct competition with each other as to which is better. they are used for different purposes. treating them as if they are used for the same thing is only going to lead to confusion. you don't spend an awful lot of time trying to decide whether you should use a hammer or a screwdriver to put a nail into a wall, and you don't spend much time trying to decide whether to use a hammer or a screwdriver to put a screw into a wall. if i am talking about how to put a screw into a wall, and you just walk up and start suggesting someone try a hammer, and we're giving advice to someone who doesn't know much about screws, screwdrivers, hammers, and nails is just going to get very frustrated trying to pound a screw into the wall with a hammer. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#40
|
|
Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,272 Joined: 22-June 10 From: Omaha. NE Member No.: 18,746 ![]() |
we're giving advice to someone who doesn't know much about screws, screwdrivers, hammers, and nails is just going to get very frustrated trying to pound a screw into the wall with a hammer. Actually, it's worse than that. I KNOW I don't know the rules, but parts of this have made me wonder if anyone does. Looking at the top of page 247 at the common rigger/drone tests table the picture is a lot clearer than this thread has been. Jumped in = Response while Remote Control = Command with the exception of Attack, where Remote Control has the Uber Advantage of ignoring the default level 2 on the Sensors on the drone. A Technomancer can up their control easier and cheaper than they can up their reflex. OK. I get it now. The middle column of that table is for Dog Brains. Regardless of your choice of Remote Control or Jumped in, Dog Brains is your other choice. When you jump out of your Fly-Spy and into the enemy's Steel Lynx, the Dog Brains are what drives your Fly-Spy back to the street to be picked up and dropped into a Faraday cage until you can insure it's untampered. There's a lot of use for Dog Brains but they're the OTHER thing that you do, regardless of your choice between RC or Jumped in. They may even be the thing you do better, but they're still a completely different thing. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#41
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#42
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Rigging dodge, not meat dodge.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#43
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#44
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Jumped-In dodge pool is Command, so I assume that's how.
Edit: Sorry, that's *Remote Controlled*, not Jumped-In. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#45
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
Still curious to know how they manage that. Can't be with a boosted command CF, because using the command CF/program requires a complex action. the action is controlling the drone on their IP. using their already-existing control to dodge is no more an action for someone using a command CF than it is for someone rigging the drone. or perhaps you think that as soon as the controllers action phase is over, their control over the drone ends? if so, that's just silly. the remote control option has you spend your action at one specific point, but that action spent represents your actions over the entire turn. the drone being shot at may be resolved at a different time than the person controlling the drone resolves their actions, but that is for convenience only, because turn-based is a lot easier to resolve than real-time when it comes to pen and paper games. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#46
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
No, command doesn't allow you to dodge for the drone. It allows you to execute a single action for the drone with the command program. Anything other than that single action is done by the drone itself. The command program doesn't give you overarching control over the drone, it simply allows you to issue a single command, which it executes. If you want overarching control over the drone, you jump into it.
The command program isn't the same as being jumped in except with a program. It is the same as telling the drone (very specifically and elaborately, thus the big DP) how to do one thing, after which it is on its own again. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#47
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
No, command doesn't allow you to dodge for the drone. It allows you to execute a single action for the drone with the command program. Anything other than that single action is done by the drone itself. The command program doesn't give you overarching control over the drone, it simply allows you to issue a single command, which it executes. If you want overarching control over the drone, you jump into it. The command program isn't the same as being jumped in except with a program. It is the same as telling the drone (very specifically and elaborately, thus the big DP) how to do one thing, after which it is on its own again. you are directly controlling the drone. the drone is never controlling itself. if it was, then you could pull BS like using command to fire the drone's guns on your IP and then having the drone fire its guns on its IP, which is not the case. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#48
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
*shrug* Check the chart: Jumped-In Defense is Command, Jumped-In Full Defense is Command + Dodge.
Edit: Sorry, *Remote Controlled* in place of 'Jumped-In' in my statement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, that's what the OP was talking about, so it's still right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#49
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 ![]() |
p. 245 Sr4A
Under "ISSUING COMMANDS" "You give a short command to the drone or other device with the Issuing Command action (p. 245).The drone attempts to execute those orders autonomously on its own action phase. You need to be able to communicate with the drone, via the Matrix for example, but do not need to be subscribed to the drone." under "REMOTE CONTROL" "You control a device by running the Command program. You may control only one drone at a time, and must have an active subscription to that drone. You use your Command rating in place of the attribute for the dice pool for any action you take (except for Perception Tests, which use the drone’s Sensor rating in place of your Perception)." Those are the other modes besides JUMPING IN also on the same page "You “jump into” a drone via full VR. This requires a subscription to the drone, vehicle, or device and takes a Simple Action. When jumped in, the rigger essentially “becomes” the drone, perceiving through its sensors and operating it as if it were his own body. A rigger who has jumped into a drone can issue commands to other drones, but cannot control them remotely." |
|
|
![]()
Post
#50
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 ![]() |
That "Issue Command (p. 245 )" is actually supposed to be p. 229 where it is listed as a Simple Action
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#51
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
I edited my posts, so I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I meant directly Remote-Controlled, but kept typing 'Jumped-In' for no good reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Whoops.
A Technomancer can *remote control* a drone for a huge pool in… almost everything, including passive dodge. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#52
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
I can't find the handy chart that says what DPs are used under what circumstances (Stupid bad layout), so I can't confirm. I was under the impression though that the command forced the drone to do a single action (using up its IP, so no shenanigans) and then had the drone do its own thing. Instead it seems to work more like the command program is a video game hooked up to the drone, which seems absurdly cheesy to me. Even without TM foolery, it is generally easier to get a rating 6 command program than to become really good at jumping into a drone (not to mention way less risky).
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#53
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
No, Issue Command, a Simple Action tells a drone to do XYZ under its own power, with its own dice pool.
Control Device, a complex action, does indeed give you a video game interface hooked up to the drone. You override the drone, and perform the action yourself. A minor quirk of the rules is, nomatter the action taken on the end of the line, you have to spend a complex action to do it, which makes Commanding/Control Devicing action inefficient. In doing so, you swap Command for the Attribute in the test you make. (it is in fact a double swap, because the matrix in general swaps Program Rating for Attribute, which means you default for Program-1 on the matrix. See Control Device and Attributes in the Matrix for more details). Its not so much that Command is cheesy, as ANY attribute at 9+ is GOOD. Command just lets you use it for everything. On the other hand, consider the implications if another archetype, such as a samurai, could do the same thing. They have an agility of 14! Amazing! They get to roll it for EVERYthing! Excellent! They HAVE to roll it for everything. Moving. Reloading. Perception tests. Taking aim. Firing a semi-auto weapon. Uh oh. What do you mean I can't fire two shots in one pass with command? When you consider all the actions you normally take: Complex/2 simple +1 free, then realize you need a complex action for -every- one you want to do if you want to use your Command rating.... then it becomes a bit less good. Also, for balancing Commandthreading, keep in mind that "No threaded complex form can have a rating greater than twice the technomancer's resonance." And that sprite assist operation "a registered sprite can add its rating to any single complex form used by the technomancer. This assistance lasts a number of combat turns equal to the sprites rating: A rating 3 sprite for example, can boost the rating of the technomancer's Armor complex form by 3, for a maximum of 3 combat turns per task." Sprite assist operation does NOT cancel out the rating cap from threading, and as the rules show, actually does boost the rating of the CF directly(if temporarily). SO..... You can't have a Command of 18 out the door with a combination of Threading and Assist Operation. You can only have a command of 18 if you have a Resonance of 9, or if you don't thread at all. Basically: CF+Threading+Sprite < Resonance x2. The most you can get out the door of character creation is a rating 12 CF. You *could* get 13, buy using a CF of 6 base and a force 7+ sprite..... but then you have to bind and register a force 7+ sprite, and the fading is probably going to kill you if you get unlucky. Once in play, you can submerge once and raise your resonance, and increase the threaded cap to rating 14. Which is.... pretty good. A threaded Command of 14 is excellent, despite its restrictions. And.... is it really unbalanced if a TM has paid 48 karma for that capability? Yes, rating times 5 attribute cost fucks over TMs as hard as it does mages. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#54
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
So use Full Auto. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#55
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
On the other hand, consider the implications if another archetype, such as a samurai, could do the same thing. They have an agility of 14! Amazing! They get to roll it for EVERYthing! Excellent! Which is... you know, kinda the point.QUOTE They HAVE to roll it for everything. Moving. Reloading. Perception tests. Taking aim. Firing a semi-auto weapon. Uh oh. What do you mean I can't fire two shots in one pass with command? When you consider all the actions you normally take: Complex/2 simple +1 free, then realize you need a complex action for -every- one you want to do if you want to use your Command rating.... then it becomes a bit less good. Moving doesn't require an action, nor do perception tests. And as Yeram said, if you're using a complex action anyway, may as well use FA. Also, most drones aren't really set up to be able to reload. And with 20+ dice, you should have killed everything long before reloading comes up as a problem (especially with 100 ammo belts) Oh, and lets not forget that you are basically immune to damage. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#56
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
Actually, Perception Tests DO require a complex action. Controlling a vehicle does indeed require a Complex action every pass. Walking is a non-action. Running, however, is a free, and sprinting is a Simple - for pedestrians. I am wrong about one thing: Control Device apparently only upgrades Simple actions to Complex, it doesn't say anything about Free ones.
Because.... they're Sensor tests. and Observe In Detail is a simple action. Which becomes a complex action via Control Device. Then again, Active Sensor Targeting just became that much better. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#57
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
So. It's a minor tradeoff, for massive single-attribute-dependence on the *one* thing you can boost to like 18. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And that's only Observe in Detail, not normal 'Spot' checks. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#58
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
So. It's a minor tradeoff, for massive single-attribute-dependence on the *one* thing you can boost to like 18. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And that's only Observe in Detail, not normal 'Spot' checks. Observe in Detail IS the normal spot check. Its the action SR uses for pretty much everything, including astral/matrix perception checks. Its a good thing it does, else using the Perception skill would be a Complex Action. (use skill is a complex action. I think its made more for doing stuff like picking locks in combat, but, hey, it applies here too). Also, see above. A TM can't generally boost a CF to 18. The capability to do so would cost a hundred and twenty karma. (resonance 7+8+9=24, times 5 karma to raise it.) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#59
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
No, I think it was CF to 12, and then Sprite'd or something. It's not my suggestion, someone said it above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Observe in Detail is definitely not the reflexive 'Spot check'. Page 135 in SR4A makes that clear, because it distinguishes between the two. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#60
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Observe in Detail IS the normal spot check. Its the action SR uses for pretty much everything, including astral/matrix perception checks. Its a good thing it does, else using the Perception skill would be a Complex Action. (use skill is a complex action. I think its made more for doing stuff like picking locks in combat, but, hey, it applies here too). No, Observe in Detail is the normal "I want to look really closely at something." check. You can still glance over an area (and thus get a perception test) without an action, and if someone is trying to sneak past you, you still get a perception check without having to do anything at all. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#61
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
No, I think it was CF to 12, and then Sprite'd or something. It's not my suggestion, someone said it above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yeah, and that trick doesn't work, because they're ignoring some of the rules for threading. No, Observe in Detail is the normal "I want to look really closely at something." check. You can still glance over an area (and thus get a perception test) without an action, and if someone is trying to sneak past you, you still get a perception check without having to do anything at all. You actually don't get it - the GM rolls for you in secret, with a -2 penalty for being distracted, if you're relying on passive observation. In fact, it even says the GM should -not- tell the players a perception test is being made so they don't start metagaming. Yeah, passive observation is not reliable at -all-. Sadly, there's no rules for 'a glance', but you can observe in detail over an area just fine. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#62
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
That's ridiculous. *If* you're distracted, a piddling -2. It's definitely, as I said, the SR4 version of the spot check. It's definitely not an action.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#63
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#64
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
Also, see above. A TM can't generally boost a CF to 18. The capability to do so would cost a hundred and twenty karma. (resonance 7+8+9=24, times 5 karma to raise it.) i see things that say you can't thread a complex form to more than double. is sprite assist operation threading? no it is not. nobody performs a threading test, nobody takes drain from threading, nobody is threading anything, therefore it is not restricted by rules dealing with threading. so, you thread your command up to 12 (which is likely going to hurt) and then have a rating 6 registered sprite assist it up to 18 (which rating 6 registered sprite is not trivial to obtain, and you can only use it for a very short duration relatively speaking). is it very powerful? yes it is. but while it's really easy to *say* that you can get that 18, it shouldn't be assumed that it is trivial or that the technomancer doesn't pay through the nose for it just because it is possible right out of chargen. (it should be noted that to pull this off literally right out of chargen you need to have spent BP on having registered sprites, but later on it will require only time and luck to get registered sprite services, though at rating 6 it won't be easy) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#65
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
Not exactly, Jaid. If you Thread a complex form, well, its threaded, and can't have a rating more than twice resonance. As long as the CF is threaded, the restriction applies.
Sprite assist operation adds the sprites rating to the CF's rating. (see the example in 4a). You can add Assist Operation all you like to a threaded complex form! No problem there! .... up until the 2x resonance cap. Because the threading restriction doesn't go away. Watching. Waiting. Laughing at your sprite bouncing its rating against the ceiling. Cause Assist Operation rules don't magically nullify Threading rules. If you're using both, the rules or both apply, and that includes the restriction for threading. Its one of the most important things for people to remember when balancing technomancers, and a small, very easy piece of text for people to forget about, especially if they're not familiar with the matrix. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#66
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
QUOTE When using most of the skills in the Stealth skill group— Infi ltration, Palming, and Shadowing—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target’s Perception + Intuition. Apply any appropriate Perception modifi ers (see p. 117) to the target. QUOTE To determine how observant a character is of her surroundings, the gamemaster can call for Perception Tests. Unless a character specifi cally takes an Observe in Detail Simple Action to perceive, she is considered to be distracted by whatever task is at hand (suff ering a –2 dice pool modifi er). QUOTE Gamemasters may call for Perception Tests for any situation that involves sight, hearing, smell, touch, or taste QUOTE Gamemasters should limit their uses of Perception Tests, only calling for them when something is not immediately noticeable or when a situation is so hectic that certain things might be overlooked. So yeah, you'll be taking the -2 distracted penalty for not using an action, but you certainly don't need to spend an action to be able to perceive things. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#67
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Udoshi, there's nothing to prove. It's totally obvious from the very clear written rules.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#68
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Udoshi has a good point about the threading. The book says that
QUOTE No threaded complex form can having a That means if it is being threaded, it's rating cannot be above resonance x 2. It doesn't matter if that extra rating comes after the threading action or not, as long as the CF is still being threaded (ie. the threading is being sustained) its rating cannot become higher than resonance x 2.
rating of more than twice the technomancer’s Resonance. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#69
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Ah, well there you go. Still, a 12 as an (actually, all) *attribute* is nothing to sneeze at. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I assume that was the OP's point.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#70
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
Man, Karoline. you left out bits I'd quoted earlier. I'm dissappointed. Lemme add em back in.
QUOTE (4a 135 @ [b) Using Perception[/b]] To determine how observant a character is of her surroundings, the gamemaster can call for Perception Tests. Unless a character specifically takes an Observe in Detail Simple Action to perceive, she is considered to be distracted by whatever task is at hand (suffering a –2 dice pool modififer). For tactical reasons, the gamemaster should make this test secretly on behalf of the character, so the the character is unaware of exactly how well her character succeeded or failed. In fact, it may be advisable in certain cases to not let the player(s) know that a Perception test is being made, in order to avoid rasing their suspicions. when an entire group of characters has a chacne to notice something, the gamemaster can simplify matters by making a single perception test for the entire team, using the largest dice pool available +1 per extra character (maximum+5). Such group perception tests should not be made when surprise is possible Out of curiosity, is your quote from 4th or 4A? QUOTE (4a 147 @ Observe in Detail) A cahracter may make a detailed observation by taking a simple action. This allows a Perception test ( see using perception, p135) Note that characters should always be able to observe what is immediately obvious (gamemaster's discretion, keeping in mind any perception enhancements the characters may have) without having to spend a simple action and make a perception test. For example, a character might automatically be aware that someone is running towards him with a gun in hand; however, the gamemaster may decide that the character cannot tell if it is a friend or foe without taking an Observe in Detail action. The point is, do you -really- want to rely on the Gm to tell you everything automatically? And I don't even mean in the 'players vs GM, gm takes every opportunity to screw the players' sense. I know that our GM, who's a great guy and not out to get the character at every turn is.... human. He gets tired, he drops details, and doesn't remember every rule all the time. He splits his attention to the other players, and doesn't have time to constantly tell one person exactly what is going on. My point is.... passive perception isn't exactly reliable. And to get any further information, you need to spend an action to look around. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#71
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Man, Karoline. you left out bits I'd quoted earlier. I'm dissappointed. Lemme add em back in. Yeah, because you quoted them earlier. It doesn't really matter if it is the GM or you making the test, it still gets made.QUOTE Out of curiosity, is your quote from 4th or 4A? 4thQUOTE The point is, do you -really- want to rely on the Gm to tell you everything automatically? And I don't even mean in the 'players vs GM, gm takes every opportunity to screw the players' sense. I know that our GM, who's a great guy and not out to get the character at every turn is.... human. He gets tired, he drops details, and doesn't remember every rule all the time. He splits his attention to the other players, and doesn't have time to constantly tell one person exactly what is going on. My point is.... passive perception isn't exactly reliable. And to get any further information, you need to spend an action to look around. I don't really have a problem with it, he tells me everything automatically anyway. If it is something that requires a perception check, it'll get made for everyone, if it is something that doesn't require a perception check, then a perception check isn't at issue. If there is something about the surroundings you want to know, you ask, and he tells you, and life moves on. If there is some obscure detail he forgot, rolling a check isn't going to jog his memory. I'm curious as to exactly what sort of thing you're so afraid will get forgotten if you don't spend an action every round on 'observe in detail'. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#72
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
My point is that passive perception is super reliable, not that you'd *never* want to make an Observe in Detail test. If anyone's going to be thinking of what details are available to be observed, it's the GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#73
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
I can't find the handy chart that says what DPs are used under what circumstances (Stupid bad layout), so I can't confirm. It's on Unwired p 105. Common Rigger/Drone Tests. Even without TM foolery, it is generally easier to get a rating 6 command program than to become really good at jumping into a drone (not to mention way less risky). Yeah, Joystick Jockies are insane, but Spoof their bots and they're boned. Here's something funny though. A low-logic bruiser can spend a 900¥ on a rating 6 Command program with the Optimization 3 option, slap it in his generic R3 comlink, and he's got an easy way to sub in 4 (six minus the two for Remote Operation,) Command dice for his piddly Logic in a First Aid test - just by using a Controller instead of his weak-ass noggin. It's like idiot-proofing. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#74
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
It's like idiot-proofing. Successful idiot-proofing. Which moves it more into the realm of fantasy than pixies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#75
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
-2 for Remote Operation?
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#76
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#77
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
OH, he's talking about medicine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sorry!
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#78
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
OH, he's talking about medicine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sorry! Think it applies to First Aid as well. Any of the stuff from that group. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#79
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Right, I had it in my head that we were still talking about vehicles.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#80
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#81
|
|
Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 ![]() |
Given that the drone would have to be a medic drone
I'm okay with that. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#82
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#83
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
Yup, your typical medkit is also somehow a drone or something, innately capable of remote operation. It's a magical box that heals bullet wounds; who knows how it's supposed to work? Heh, I don't make the rules, I just use 'em.
Bet you didn't think you'd have to slave your bandages to your PAN though... |
|
|
![]()
Post
#84
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
You can remote-control a medkit? :/
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#85
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
You can remote-control a medkit? :/ Of course, this is the future. Your standard medkit is also capable of (nearly) instantly healing anything up to but not including death. It is constructed from unobtainum and fueled by handwavium, just like all healing items in all games ever. Edit: I want to use the 'round up' rule on turrets to put a weapon mount on my medkit. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#86
|
|
Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 ![]() |
WHy do you have to round up all drones have 4 modification slots, regardless of body.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#87
|
|
Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 ![]() |
WHy do you have to round up all drones have 4 modification slots, regardless of body. Becouse unless you round up the limit on weapon mounts, medkid doesn't have hight enought body to hold a weapon mount (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#88
|
|
Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 ![]() |
weapon mount: normal size 1
Turret Flexibility: +3 remote control - Your R6 medkit can have a totally obvious turret mounted smg no problem. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#89
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
It's not a question of mod slots. Weapon mounts require Body as well, although Karoline is making a joke about how stupid it is to round *up* for the '1 mount per 3 Body' rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#90
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
It's not a question of mod slots. Weapon mounts require Body as well, although Karoline is making a joke about how stupid it is to round *up* for the '1 mount per 3 Body' rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#91
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
Does 0 body round up to one still?
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#92
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#93
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#94
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 182 Joined: 22-January 07 Member No.: 10,736 ![]() |
one thing I am having difficulty finding
(I appologize if this has been covered elsewhere but my search options are having issues finding it) if a Techno runs into a matrix system that is off of the wireless network as mentioned in SR4A pg 264 under matrix security how do they access it ? Do they need a datajack or some such physical connection ... or will the Reso Trodes work for that |
|
|
![]()
Post
#95
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Why would they have Resonance Trodes, for one? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But, you mean Skinlink. If they have Skinlink, they can just touch it. If they don't, they can just hook a commlink to it, or use one of those wiretapper drones, or (perhaps?) just wear normal trodes and hook *that* to it.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#96
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 182 Joined: 22-January 07 Member No.: 10,736 ![]() |
hmmmm thought I read somewhere they couldnt use normal devices ... I may be wrong
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#97
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Indeed, I'm not sure about the trodes. However, anything connected to the target node is certainly fair wireless game for the Technomancer, if he doesn't already have the Skinlink Echo.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#98
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 182 Joined: 22-January 07 Member No.: 10,736 ![]() |
Wiretap drones sound like the best way to go since they just open the wireless link
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#99
|
|
Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
And if there physically is no wireless, they make their own. There are nanites that do the same thing, IIRC; I'm not sure if they work on inanimate objects, but I think they could. Still, the very *easiest* thing is disposable commlink. You can assume it comes with a wire; connect wire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#100
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 182 Joined: 22-January 07 Member No.: 10,736 ![]() |
wouldnt a commlink Limit the Living persona ... Commlink ratings vs. Persona ratings .... or are we talking about simply a routing path
making a techno for the 1st time so forgive the stupidity of some of these questions |
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 6th August 2025 - 05:13 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.