Biowire and the Skillwire Expert System, Why Writers need to cross check. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Sixgun_Sage]

I'm a big fan of technomancers, they start off relatively limited but sink some karma in them and they become digital gods, they are also decent second tier combatants when done right (I'm looking at you Accel echo), but I have a question about the biowire echo. Namely it specifies it mimicing the skillwire system, however in Augmentation the expert skillwire specifis it's greater integration in the system as te reason for allowing edge to reroll failure. If this is so shouldn't Biowire as an organic adaptation gain the same benefit (at least)to the system of the technomancer, an individual with a natural affinity for electronic information manipulation and processing. Has this been addressed somewhere I am unaware of such as in 4A or a piece of errata?

[Aaron]

The name "expert system" suggests that there's not merely integration going on, but a system that augments the normal skillwires beyond merely the integration. Technomancers wouldn't have the additional electronics, and wouldn't have any way to properly mimic it anyway.

[Sixgun_Sage]

The name "expert system" suggests that there's not merely integration going on, but a system that augments the normal skillwires beyond merely the integration. Technomancers wouldn't have the additional electronics, and wouldn't have any way to properly mimic it anyway.

Except the only justification they offer for the expert system's function is the enhanced integration leading to improved transmission, one could easilly make a case fo Technomancers getting an even better functional increase from a skillwire CF since it is functionally part of them in a way a skillwire expert system cannot mimic.

[Dumori]

If it really irks you let then have an echo for it or include it in the echo.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Eh, it isn't a huge issue for me, it just seems like an odd distinction to go "this system allows people to use skillwires even better then the people that can copy a skillwire directly to their brain."

[Marcus]

Except the only justification they offer for the expert system's function is the enhanced integration leading to improved transmission, one could easilly make a case fo Technomancers getting an even better functional increase from a skillwire CF since it is functionally part of them in a way a skillwire expert system cannot mimic.

I think its a reasonable house rule to give it. Its clearly not part of the stated ability, but I can see how you reach that conclusion. Echo and deep Echo still have bugs (lol) to be worked out imo.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Eh, it isn't a huge issue for me, it just seems like an odd distinction to go "this system allows people to use skillwires even better then the people that can copy a skillwire directly to their brain."

Without the little drawback of actually NEEDING wires to run that downloaded software.... sometimes there are tradeoffs, and not everything is equal...

The fact that a Technomancer does not need anything but an Emulated CF to use any skill in the book is extremely powerful... Why complain that you do not get the benefits of the Skillwire expert system to boot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Marcus]

Without the little drawback of actually NEEDING wires to run that downloaded software.... sometimes there are tradeoffs, and not everything is equal...

The fact that a Technomancer does not need anything but an Emulated CF to use any skill in the book is extremely powerful... Why complain that you do not get the benefits of the Skillwire expert system to boot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Your asking why gamers are sad when we can't have our cake and eat it too? lol

[Sixgun_Sage]

Without the little drawback of actually NEEDING wires to run that downloaded software.... sometimes there are tradeoffs, and not everything is equal...

The fact that a Technomancer does not need anything but an Emulated CF to use any skill in the book is extremely powerful... Why complain that you do not get the benefits of the Skillwire expert system to boot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Not so much a complaint as an observation but I will point out a skillwire sammy does not have to pay 2 karma for every skillchip he gets. when you factor that into the already exacting karma costs of improving a TM...

Not that I don't think the TM gets a nice benefit from biowire, I just don't think having it be less efficient than skillwire expert system makes much sense.

[Aaron]

Except the only justification they offer for the expert system's function is the enhanced integration leading to improved transmission, one could easilly make a case fo Technomancers getting an even better functional increase from a skillwire CF since it is functionally part of them in a way a skillwire expert system cannot mimic.

If that's the case, then it's hardware doing the enhancing. Technomancers seem to have the ability to interpret and generate RF signals, but they don't seem to have the ability to grow hardware out of their floppy biological bits.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not so much a complaint as an observation but I will point out a skillwire sammy does not have to pay 2 karma for every skillchip he gets. when you factor that into the already exacting karma costs of improving a TM...

Not that I don't think the TM gets a nice benefit from biowire, I just don't think having it be less efficient than skillwire expert system makes much sense.

But I would disagree that it is less effecient than a Skilwire expert system.... you are taking a Skillsoft and emulating it WITHOUT THE NEED OF ANY MECHANICAL INTERFACE WHATSOEVER (which no one else can even attempt, let alone succeed at))... and you do not have to pay 2 Karma to have the skillsoft... You can emulate it and NEVER purchase it as a CF... I would argue that buying it as a CF keeps you from having to emulate it, and then it acts, for all intents and purposes as a True Skill (Far less Karma Expenditure involved there if you look at the figures)...

[Sixgun_Sage]

But I would disagree that it is less effecient than a Skilwire expert system.... you are taking a Skillsoft and emulating it WITHOUT THE NEED OF ANY MECHANICAL INTERFACE WHATSOEVER (which no one else can even attempt, let alone succeed at))... and you do not have to pay 2 Karma to have the skillsoft... You can emulate it and NEVER purchase it as a CF... I would argue that buying it as a CF keeps you from having to emulate it, and then it acts, for all intents and purposes as a True Skill (Far less Karma Expenditure involved there if you look at the figures)...

Oh, I won't argue the cost of actually buying a skill against the cost of biowire and learning the CF version, honestly I consider skillwires a bad idea and try to limit their use in my games, but when you look at the experience cost of submersion or learning the echo on it's own plus the karma expense of learning the CF... I won't argue you don't have to learn the Skillwire as a CF, you could emulate it and suffer the sustaining penalty.

I guess my point is the inclusion of the expert system and having biowire inferior to it seems to be somewhat arbitrary. Yes you don't have to spend cash and karma for the systems if you have biowire, but you do have to spend a significant amount of karma. was hoping for a reason other than "game balance" when I do in fact find even that justification suspect.

[Marcus]

But I would disagree that it is less effecient than a Skilwire expert system.... you are taking a Skillsoft and emulating it WITHOUT THE NEED OF ANY MECHANICAL INTERFACE WHATSOEVER (which no one else can even attempt, let alone succeed at))... and you do not have to pay 2 Karma to have the skillsoft... You can emulate it and NEVER purchase it as a CF... I would argue that buying it as a CF keeps you from having to emulate it, and then it acts, for all intents and purposes as a True Skill (Far less Karma Expenditure involved there if you look at the figures)...

mmmm. Given that the mechanics you need can be totally internal I'm not so sure I'd give you the first point. But your completely correct on the 2nd part. However echos aren't cheap in and of themselves, and anything that draws Karma away from getting more of them, is certainly slowing things down.
If you read the section on it you can indeed buy it as a CF, and even cooler sense really what your doing is Copying over the actual program you can put the cool program option on it. Which is nice all be it a little more expensive but all good.

[Yerameyahu]

It's simple. Biowires duplicates basic Skillwires. You want additional emulation, use additional Echoes. The fluff doesn't matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Alternatively, you can house-rule that the Biowires *are* the best kind of skillwires (Expert, etc.). I wouldn't argue that it's a travesty that they're not… nor even a writer error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I agree that Technomancers should, at least in theory, be able to emulate almost any personal electronics/'wires'. They're the electro-Bene-Gesserit. It just shouldn't be *easy*.

[DMiller]

The TM could also use the DIMAP program option when he emulates the skill. This would also allow the use of Edge, as a trade off the skill would be more expensive to buy with karma as a CF, but hey, still cheaper than learning a skill at rating 4.

-D

[Sixgun_Sage]

The TM could also use the DIMAP program option when he emulates the skill. This would also allow the use of Edge, as a trade off the skill would be more expensive to buy with karma as a CF, but hey, still cheaper than learning a skill at rating 4.

-D

Exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much.

[Yerameyahu]

They're both only for rerolling failed Tests, which is nice, but one of the weakest Edge options. :/

[Sixgun_Sage]

They're both only for rerolling failed Tests, which is nice, but one of the weakest Edge options. :/

But it addresses my original concern exactly.

[Yerameyahu]

I know, but someone implied that it was better than actually getting the skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I just wanted to point out the difference, even for Technomancers. It is cheaper, but you get what you pay for.

[Walpurgisborn]

was hoping for a reason other than "game balance" when I do in fact find even that justification suspect.

You're right, it's pretty damn broken as is.

[Dumori]

Of corse with swap maxed an TM can just on the fly any skill they need. Bar there special TM skills. With a goodenough DP thats every skill at 4+ with a reroll. Sure its unlikely and require a good few echos but can be done. In my eyes TMs have the most fun options in the game. From brainwashing by touch to jack of all trades they need to be. Hell they can already be classed as a 4 in any knowledge skill as they can emulate knowsofts too.

[DMiller]

Keep in mind to emulate a skill they need to gain access to a software version of it. I know that's not a major factor if you have pirated software in your games, but it does slow them down a bit.

-D

[Yerameyahu]

Well, only if they have access to the information. Luckily, accessing information is their whole raison d'être, but they still have to go through the hoops.

[Marcus]

Well, only if they have access to the information. Luckily, accessing information is their whole raison d'être, but they still have to go through the hoops.

As long as it getting paid for and the chance of failure is there, Just the way the game is played. No one gonna beat a Edged up threaded + Edged up hack on the fly roll for having the very best possible chance for jump straight to Admin. It is one of those things about 4E that makes me slightly concerned. Lacking stat linked to decking theoretically means you could do as other have suggested and dump basically everything and just buy up Hacking gear and try and roll faces that way, I feel fairly certain it would crash in burn in long run. But it's really a discussion for another thread.

[Yerameyahu]

I just meant that they can't 'magically' have KnowSoft 4 in everything, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They still have to steal the info from somewhere.

[Marcus]

I just meant that they can't 'magically' have KnowSoft 4 in everything, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They still have to steal the info from somewhere.

True true. The Matrix is mother the matrix is father. But Mommy and Daddy make you work for it.

[Dumori]

I just meant that they can't 'magically' have KnowSoft 4 in everything, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They still have to steal the info from somewhere.

True but it's an almost ingnorable cost for one or two knowsofts at rating 1

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not sure what you mean. KnowSofts are only available if the information is available, and higher-rating information is rarer. I guess you're saying that they could buy everything at 1, and 'magically' add information to it with their Technomancer powers, but a GM wouldn't allow that. It's not the same as making an Armor program run better, after all.

[sabs]

Don't the rules specifically say that TM's can't thread Know/Active softs?

[Dumori]

Don't the rules specifically say that TM's can't thread Know/Active softs?

No try that the other way round.

[Dumori]

I'm not sure what you mean. KnowSofts are only available if the information is available, and higher-rating information is rarer. I guess you're saying that they could buy everything at 1, and 'magically' add information to it with their Technomancer powers, but a GM wouldn't allow that. It's not the same as making an Armor program run better, after all.

Mecanicaly it is. Wy you thread better you pull better code from around the martix/resonance all you do with knowsofts is pull them from around the matrix/resonance .

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not talking about the RAW; obviously, many crazy things are legal. I'm saying that a GM shouldn't let secret information appear from nowhere because the guy 'optimizes' the rating 1 Knowsoft. It doesn't make sense, unless we're handwaving that the Resonance goes and (again, 'magically') pulls the information from everywhere for you. Given that there's an Echo more or less for that, it seems incorrect.

That's a possible fluff, but not one that makes any sense. CFs aren't made of normal code, after all. And it is simply fluff. *shrug* Again, I'm not saying RAW doesn't allow it. I'm saying a GM shouldn't. There are many things in the RAW that don't make sense, after all. Free knowledge skills hardly matters, but since you mentioned it… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

No try that the other way round.

Ah kinda
They have to have the active/knowsoft and then they can use threading to 'convert it' into a Complex Form that they can temporarily sustain, or pay karma for to memorize.

That's different than being able to thread it out of whole cloth all the way to rating 12 (for example)

[Marcus]

Don't the rules specifically say that TM's can't thread Know/Active softs?

With the correct Echo, they can Emulate an existing piece of Activesoft/Knowsolft/Linguasoft subject to
a some Limitations, further they can choose to Purchase said Emulation as a CF. However the point is
That software exists somewhere in the Matrix. So theoretically you can go find it. Subject to the rule
easier said then done.

[Dumori]

With the correct Echo, they can Emulate an existing piece of Activesoft/Knowsolft/Linguasoft subject to
a some Limitations, further they can choose to Purchase said Emulation as a CF. However the point is
That software exists somewhere in the Matrix. So theoretically you can go find it. Subject to the rule
easier said then done.

Nah TMs are uber dataminers they'll find it or there spirtes will.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, but they should be required to *actually* go find it, or make a Sprite do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Marcus]

Nah TMs are uber dataminers they'll find it or there spirtes will.

Most stuff I generally agree. But its alway the edge cases you use to make a point. So we know people use Skillwires to prevent there labor force from developing the skill they need to do their jobs (Thus making them dependent upon there Corp). This logic could be made to apply to other things. If there is information so sensitive that they can't risk someone actually knowing it they might very well stick it in a skillwire. Just imagen how crazy hard that piece of software could be to hack up.

[sabs]

DIMAP coding makes the skillwire expert system a waste and fixes your problem entirely.

DIMAP
Program Types: Simsense (Skillsoft)
The Direct Interpretive Memory Augmentation Programming
(DIMAP) option allows the user to better interpret the skillsoft’s
programming and more easily incorporate that information with
the user’s own memories. Since this brings the skillsoft skill closer
to a real skill learned over time, this option exceptionally allows
players to use Edge to reroll a failed test when using that skillsoft.

[Yerameyahu]

Welcome to 20 posts ago, sabs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Although, the Expert *is* cheaper if you're buying your 'softs legal.

[sabs]

CF's don't suffer from degradation.
Why would you bother?

[Yerameyahu]

That assumes you're buying them all with Karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also, CF-ing DIMAP costs Karma as well.

I'm only pointing out the differences. It's not like I care either way.

[sabs]

it's true
Getting a new skill from rating 0 to rating 5 = 32 Karma
Getting a CF with all those optimizations to the same effective rating would cost you 46 karma.

So it's not exactly a win, you're better off just learning the skill.

Course, you could /buy/ the skill all legal like, so it automatically stays updated and you CF it when you need it.

[DMiller]

it's true
Getting a new skill from rating 0 to rating 5 = 32 Karma
Getting a CF with all those optimizations to the same effective rating would cost you 46 karma.

So it's not exactly a win, you're better off just learning the skill.

Course, you could /buy/ the skill all legal like, so it automatically stays updated and you CF it when you need it.

sabs,

I think your math might be a bit off.
For your CF cost, are you including the submrsion costs? If you're not the cost for a skillsoft 5 (with personalized and DIMAP) to CF conversion would be 7 karma. THis will get you 8 dice + attribute and the ability to reroll failures.

You really can't include the karma cost of the submersion as that is something the TM would likely be doing anyway, and as you add skills to the CF library the submersion cost should be divided between the number of skills you acquire thus reducing the cost per skill ratio (again assuming the sumbersion cost is included).

-D

[sabs]

No I'm not including the karma cost for submersions.

Look at the costs of CF in karma expenditures.

new CF 2 karma
raising CF by 1 Rating Karma

Skillsoft rating is 4
Personalized, DIMAP, codeplus 3 is 5 additional optimizations
so that gives us a rating of 9 for CF costs.
Rating 1 = 2
Rating 2= 2
Rating 3 = 3
Rating 4 = 4
Rating 5 = 5
Rating 6 = 6
Rating 7 = 7
Rating 8 = 8
Rating 9 = 9

Full cost of CF = 46

[Marcus]

No I'm not including the karma cost for submersions.

Look at the costs of CF in karma expenditures.

new CF 2 karma
raising CF by 1 Rating Karma

Skillsoft rating is 4
Personalized, DIMAP, codeplus 3 is 5 additional optimizations
so that gives us a rating of 9 for CF costs.
Rating 1 = 2
Rating 2= 2
Rating 3 = 3
Rating 4 = 4
Rating 5 = 5
Rating 6 = 6
Rating 7 = 7
Rating 8 = 8
Rating 9 = 9

Full cost of CF = 46

Unwired page 149
To learn a Skillwire you have been emulating you pay its rating in karma +1 for each program option.
So Rating 4 skill soft = 4 +1 for DIMAP = 5.
Any questions?

[sabs]

Unwired page 149
To learn a Skillwire you have been emulating you pay its rating in karma +1 for each program option.
So Rating 4 skill soft = 4 +1 for DIMAP = 5.
Any questions?

Personalize +1
DIMAP +1
CODEPLUS + 3

are you really that dense?

[Marcus]

Personalize +1
DIMAP +1
CODEPLUS + 3

are you really that dense?

lol generally. I'm really trying to understand what your saying bro. But there's clearly a failure in transmission I can see what you would want Personalized as option for another +1, I doubt if i'd let that one got as a GM, but clearly its within the rules. I can't even find Codeplus, if you mean Pluscode,well "the maximum rating Limit" I assume it referring to the number of Skillsoft it can run at once, which is irrelevant given that you can run unlimited CFs. As to the rest of your math its a mystery to me. 149 is clear, and i don't see anyway to translate a rating 4 into 46. Given that the cost list to learn an emulated Skillsoft is it's rating in karma +1 for each option or +1 per option rating. So unless you got a page reference that proves otherwise I can only assume some issue beyond my understand are at work here.

[sabs]

It's +1 for each option or option rating
You start with 4 for the Knowsoft Rating
You add +1 for Personalize making it 5
You add +1 for DIMAP
You ad +3 for PlusCODE 3

That gets you to 9

TM Cannot run as many CF as they like when it comes to biowires.

In game terms, it operates with a rating equal
to the submersion grade of the technomancer. In all other regards,
it follows the basic rules for skillwire systems.

that means that at submersiong rade 5 it works like skillwires 5.
Rating * 2 total points
Rating is the max rating a program can have.

The plus code lets you have a rating 4 activesoft only cost you 1 point.
So you can run 10 Activesofts, instead of 2

[Marcus]

It's +1 for each option or option rating
You start with 4 for the Knowsoft Rating
You add +1 for Personalize making it 5
You add +1 for DIMAP
You ad +3 for PlusCODE 3

That gets you to 9

TM Cannot run as many CF as they like when it comes to biowires.


that means that at submersiong rade 5 it works like skillwires 5.
Rating * 2 total points
Rating is the max rating a program can have.

The plus code lets you have a rating 4 activesoft only cost you 1 point.
So you can run 10 Activesofts, instead of 2

It's an interesting point on the limit. 9 I can see, I just can't see 46. However I don't think i'd pay 3 more karma when i could just switch out which one was active at any given time, especially given that submersion rating is gonna keep going up.

[sabs]

Page 270 of the SR4A the Character Improvement Table
Improvement:Karma Cost
New Complex Form: 2
Improving a Complex form by 1: New Rating

You don't pay 4 Karma for the Dodge 4 CF
You pay 11

If that Dodge CF has Personalize, DIMAP, and PlusCode 3.
You don't pay 9, you pay 46


That is btw, and interesting point:
Skillwire systems are limited to rating 5.
Would you let biowires go up to 12?

[Yerameyahu]

That still doesn't make sense…

[sabs]

Okay, I'll bite
What doesn't make sense?

CF's have the same karma cost as knowledge skills from what I can tell.
So think of them as knowledge skills for buying with karma.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, program options count exactly as an entire extra level? I didn't think that was true:

Complex Forms and Program Options: Options for complex forms must be purchased at a cost of 2 Karma per program option or program option rating (1 BP per option or point at character creation).

Now, that means that Rating 4 (11 Karma) + your 5 option-levels (10 Karma) = 21 Karma (not 46). However, this may also be relevant to us:

A complex form can be equipped with a number of options equal to half its rating. For threading of program options, see p. 148. Once an option is purchased, the technomancer can choose whether or not to use that option each time he uses the complex form.

Does this mean options, or option-levels? I assume the former; still, that means you can't have Personalized, DIMAP, *and* Pluscode without a rating 6 CF. You'll need to Thread them:

If the Threading Test is successful, all hits can be distributed among program ratings, program options, and program option ratings. Note that a complex form can only be equipped with a number of options equal to half its rating.

That last sentence implies that you can thread more Options onto a CF if its Rating is also increased by the Threading; however, a non-Threaded CF can't have more Options than half-Rating, even if the options are Threaded on.

[sabs]

Except that the BIOWIRE infor says somethign slightly different.
OOOh I miss read (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) the emulation section:

Emulation
Technomancers with the Biowire echo can use threading to
convert skillsofts (in storage accessible to the technomancer) into complex
forms that their neuromuscular system can process. To set up the
emulator, the technomancer makes a Threading (skillsoft rating) Test.
If the program contains other program ratings, raise the threshold by
the number of program options or rating points. If he succeeds, he has
converted the program into a complex form. He can now either sustain
the program as a normal threaded complex form of the same rating
or memorize the skillsoft as a complex form by paying an amount of
Karma equal to the rating (+1 for any program option or program
option rating).

Bolded for emphasis.

So,couple of points
It looks like I can put as many Program options into a skillsoft as I want, unlike other CF's
I was completely off about the cost it would only cost 9 Karma to get a Rating 4 skillsoft with all those options.

It's possible the rules for threading CF's apply, but there are definitely alternate rules for creating a Skillsoft CF compared to other CFs

[Yerameyahu]

So we were both wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) That's kinda stupid, though: Options should still cost 2/point, not 1, and I'm not sure the RAW even says that you can exceed the general half-Rating Options limit. If so, you shouldn't be able to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Another issue that's been raised before is whether you can Thread CF'd Activesofts higher. By the general rules, yes. However, the fact that the Threading test to emulate doesn't do that implies that you can't (and we know that Activesofts are intended to be limited). Another place where the book is a little mismatched and unclear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

you cant' get Skillsofts over rating 4 though.

and yes we were both wrong :grin:

and Emulation CF's are clearly different.
I don't know how I feel about it.
On one hand, It makes biowires so much cooler than skillwires.
On the other, biowires require you to be Initiate rating 5, have spent at least 1 echo on it
Find these skillsofts and then spend karma to thread them up and learn them.

Still, spending 9 karma for a rating 5 skill
that's pretty cool, being able to have 10 of those running at once.
That's amazing.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree that this isn't for free: you have to have the super-Biowires in the first place, and then you have to at least buy the pirated version of each 'soft you want to emulate (and save), as you said. Note, also, that you're not *adding* Options beyond the base 'soft being copied (which is max 2 for Rating 4).

I'm still not positive about some things:
1. Whether or not you can *later* Thread your CF'd 'softs higher than 4,
2. Whether they can have more than 2 Options (Rating/2, if you *can* Thread them above 4),
3. Whether they can be improved with Karma as normal CFs (expensive, of course),
4. Whether (houserule) it shouldn't be 2 Karma per Option-Level.

[sabs]

Can't i legally buy the skillsoft with all those options already built in?
Forget pirating it.
Just freaking buy it straight up from the Corps.

How do you handle emulating the skillsuites?

[Yerameyahu]

You can only buy the 'soft with Rating/2 Options already in, is my point. And buying it 'straight up' is ungodly expensive, and a waste: you're going to CF-ize it anyway, right?

[sabs]

You're a technomancer what are you using money on anyways?
It's not like you pay for your lifestyle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose that limit of rating/2 makes my equivalent hacker character look a bit better.

he gets 10 rating 5 skills for straight up nuyen, no karma needed.

[Dumori]

You're a technomancer what are you using money on anyways?
It's not like you pay for your lifestyle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose that limit of rating/2 makes my equivalent hacker character look a bit better.

he gets 10 rating 5 skills for straight up nuyen, no karma needed.

how are you going to load it on to your biowires with you dont emulate it any way?

[Sixgun_Sage]

Even better is when you buy the skillchip and then return it next week for a refund or store credit.

[sabs]

I did say /hacker/ character.

My hacker character with skillwires 5, and wired reflexes I

as opposed to a technomancer.

[Dumori]

I did say /hacker/ character.

Where?

[sabs]

You're a technomancer what are you using money on anyways?
It's not like you pay for your lifestyle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose that limit of rating/2 makes my equivalent hacker character look a bit better.

he gets 10 rating 5 skills for straight up nuyen, no karma needed.

Right here Dumori ^^^^^

[Yerameyahu]

No clue, because the limit is Rating/2 and Rating 4 for everyone. Let's focus, people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

It is?
I must reread Unwired

So it does.
Well, I'd skip DIMAP then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) PlusCode is much more useful.

I see now, page 114 of Unwired.

[Yerameyahu]

It's the general Option rule. Yeah, DIMAP sucks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Well it sucks for mundanes who can get expert skill wire systems.

it's potentially cool for a Technomancer who cant.

One of my favorite characters has:

skillwire 5
expert skillwire system
wired reflexes I
encephalon 2
PuSHeD
The neocortial nanites

electronics 4
cracking 4
Data Search 6

Knowledge skills:
Data Havens
Warez Sites

Black Market Pipeline: software
Contact: Pirate VPN

He's great fun, when ever the team needs a skill, he just slots it. It's a weakish build at the beginning, but after a few sessions/missions it really starts to get fun.

[Marcus]

I agree that this isn't for free: you have to have the super-Biowires in the first place, and then you have to at least buy the pirated version of each 'soft you want to emulate (and save), as you said. Note, also, that you're not *adding* Options beyond the base 'soft being copied (which is max 2 for Rating 4).

I'm still not positive about some things:
1. Whether or not you can *later* Thread your CF'd 'softs higher than 4,

Based upon the wording of Emulation I would say no.

2. Whether they can have more than 2 Options (Rating/2, if you *can* Thread them above 4),

The issue here is once the damn thing is a complex from can you thread it?
I don't think the intent was to let it be threaded, but given the wording I can't prove anything. It says memorize the skillsoft as a complex form. I don't see them wanting to let TM start running around with activesofts at 12s, but the real issue is the hard cap on skill soft can't be 4, (b/c the cyborg rules specifically talk about rating 5 skillsofts) so there needs to be clarification here what if any is max of skillsofts? Are they in fact threadable?

3. Whether they can be improved with Karma as normal CFs (expensive, of course),

No. Emulation does not discuss raising them. But i'd probably house rule that if it ever came up and just charge the difference in the two ratings. (Which is really just me saying Yes, but more round about.)

4. Whether (houserule) it shouldn't be 2 Karma per Option-Level.

Eh. I don't really have a problem with the cost in general, especially if the hard cap is in fact 4. Any Karma they aren't spending on raising resonance is adding breadth to the character imo.

[Yerameyahu]

Mhm. Well, cyborgs could be a special exception, but good point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're right that it depends on the interplay of factors: *if* you can raise them (Karma or Threading), *then* the initial Karma cost being so cheap is an issue. And so on; it depends on how these various things work together, which is kind of what the OP asked, 'did the writers talk?'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Udoshi]

You're right that it depends on the interplay of factors: *if* you can raise them (Karma or Threading),

You can't raise it, actually. The unwired errata puts the foot down on buying up learned CFs with karma, or threading them up.
Sprite assistance is the only method left of boosting biowire cfs, and that's short term.
The fact that its a complex form, however, opens up some interesting options with lifestyles - if you have a resonance well or In-Tune, you can claim the +dice on resonancey-stuff with your emulated CF's while at home. This has some nice implicatons for technical skills.

That being said, on the ops question, I do think biowires and skillwire expert systems are compatable.
Why?
Because the FAQ says a technomancer can benefit from a Simsense Booster cyberware, gaining an extra pass with their bionode, which means that tech and resonance actually -can- play well together. This should satisfy any out-of-rules/background fluff/'it doesn't work like that!" issues.
Then there's the rules:
A biowire says this:" In game terms, it operates with a rating equal to the submersion grade of a the technomancer. in all other regards, it follows the basic rules for a skillwire system."
An Expert system says this: "This implant allows a character with a skillwire system to use edge to reroll a failed test when using skillsofts"
does an expert system fall under other "all other regards?" Yes.
Problem solved.

[Yerameyahu]

Interesting!

[DMiller]

The FAQ does say that you can't thread-up a skillsoft that has been converted to a CF. Sorry I don't know how to link the exact post, but it is in the official FAQ.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

-D

[Dumori]

The FAQ does say that you can't thread-up a skillsoft that has been converted to a CF. Sorry I don't know how to link the exact post, but it is in the official FAQ.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

-D

Official FAQ is BS it contradicts RAW and such in places. In some it can be read as self contradictory. It's hardly gospal its more like surgested house rules that soem people involved with CGL had.

[Marcus]

Official FAQ is BS it contradicts RAW and such in places. In some it can be read as self contradictory. It's hardly gospal its more like surgested house rules that soem people involved with CGL had.

I think the Errata is best for everyone. It's pretty clear.

[Dumori]

I think the Errata is best for everyone. It's pretty clear.

True the offical errata reads

p. 149 Emulation
Add the following sentence to the end of this section:
“Memorized Complex Forms emulating skillso s are
limited to the rating of the original skillso and cannot be
improved either by  reading or Karma-expenditure.”

I recall the FAQ/dev chat line being yep you can thread you skill over 7 if you want.

[Yerameyahu]

On the face of it, that just sounds bad, Dumori. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I like the clear limitation of the Errata (which I apologize that I didn't really read before participating in this thread).

[Udoshi]

edit: oops. Didn't see page 4. someone beat me to it.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Right. So, that pretty much answers all my questions, I guess?

It only leaves #4: is it a fair price to CF-ize ActiveSofts+Options at a cost of 1 Karma per Rating/Option? Given that that max out at 4 (with 2 options max), that'd be 8 Karma per Rating 4 pseudo-Skill (with Personalized and PlusCode 3; just 4 without those). A real skill costs the same 8 Karma just for level 2, and 22 Karma for level 4. Should it be compared to level 5 (32 Karma), though, because of Personalized?

Hmm. If you wanted to make it a little more expensive, there are two good options: double the list cost, or 2 Karma per Rating and 1 Karma per Option. Double is 16 (half of a real Skill 5), while the split version is 12 (about half of real Skill 4). Yes, everyone would always get Personalized this way, but still; they would anyway.

[Marcus]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Right. So, that pretty much answers all my questions, I guess?

It only leaves #4: is it a fair price to CF-ize ActiveSofts+Options at a cost of 1 Karma per Rating/Option? Given that that max out at 4 (with 2 options max), that'd be 8 Karma per Rating 4 pseudo-Skill (with Personalized and PlusCode 3; just 4 without those). A real skill costs the same 8 Karma just for level 2, and 22 Karma for level 4. Should it be compared to level 5 (32 Karma), though, because of Personalized?

Hmm. If you wanted to make it a little more expensive, there are two good options: double the list cost, or 2 Karma per Rating and 1 Karma per Option. Double is 16 (half of a real Skill 5), while the split version is 12 (about half of real Skill 4). Yes, everyone would always get Personalized this way, but still; they would anyway.

I do think its fair to point out the personalized is going to make acquiring said software difficult, the wording on personalized is that it has to be customized specifically for your character. I can totally buy finding base rating soft on the net, i can even buy pluscode on the net. But I can't buy that someone happens to have personalized activesofts sitting around waiting for you. Which isn't to say you can't get them, just that you will have to ether program them yourself or lay out the cash for them.

[sabs]

You're a technomancer with software skill, you can probably program them yourself.
Or you can lay out the cash for them pretty easily. It's like 48K per skill.

What else are you spending your money on as a technomancer.
Drones?

[Marcus]

What else are you spending your money on as a technomancer.
Drones?

Beer and Pizza? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Dumori]

On the face of it, that just sounds bad, Dumori. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I like the clear limitation of the Errata (which I apologize that I didn't really read before participating in this thread).

Same I think its the ONLY errata. CGL put out before a a reprint of the book. Why can't they fix the others too.

[sabs]

Beer and Pizza? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

you spend money on beer and pizza?
you are a horrible technomancer!

[Marcus]

you spend money on beer and pizza?
you are a horrible technomancer!

LOL fair point.

[jakephillips]

Hey when the same guy delivers pizza to your place and the names on the account are never the same twice. Might send up a couple of real world flags.

[sabs]

Hey when the same guy delivers pizza to your place and the names on the account are never the same twice. Might send up a couple of real world flags.

am I not spoofing Lifestyle, and changing locations every couple of weeks anyways?

[Udoshi]

Which isn't to say you can't get them, just that you will have to ether program them yourself or lay out the cash for them.

TM: Hey! registered machine sprite! You have the Software autosoft, cause the resonance cheats like that. Make me a personalized program option, and rush the job because you have stability.

*two weeks of occasionally reregistering two sprites*
TM: "Hey! now use Patching to add it into this pirated autosoft before it degrades."
*one week later*
TM: Emulates a newly-personalized skillsoft, and learns it.

Additionally, if you're looking to really optimize your emulations, grab Pluscode 6, not 3.

3 may seem like the sweet spot, because it lets you run a r4 with only 1 'skillwire slot' taken up.
However, sprite assistance adds the sprites rating to the rating of the complex form. Which means its suddenly going to hog a lot of memory on your biowires if you use this trick.
There's -usually- no reason to have an Optimized 6 option, but as a Rated complex form, it does go up that high.
For a technomancer, being able to reduce a R4 emulation boosted to r7 down to 1 slot may be worth planning for.

[Yerameyahu]

I still don't think anything should be allowed to use Software, but oh well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

*Can* you use anything (including Sprites) to raise an ActiveSoft (emulated into a CF)? Can an Option exceed the rating of its program?

[Marcus]

TM: Hey! registered machine sprite! You have the Software autosoft, cause the resonance cheats like that. Make me a personalized program option, and rush the job because you have stability.

*two weeks of occasionally reregistering two sprites*
TM: "Hey! now use Patching to add it into this pirated autosoft before it degrades."
*one week later*
TM: Emulates a newly-personalized skillsoft, and learns it.

Additionally, if you're looking to really optimize your emulations, grab Pluscode 6, not 3.

3 may seem like the sweet spot, because it lets you run a r4 with only 1 'skillwire slot' taken up.
However, sprite assistance adds the sprites rating to the rating of the complex form. Which means its suddenly going to hog a lot of memory on your biowires if you use this trick.
There's -usually- no reason to have an Optimized 6 option, but as a Rated complex form, it does go up that high.
For a technomancer, being able to reduce a R4 emulation boosted to r7 down to 1 slot may be worth planning for.

Your concept is a fair point, and it will work. But your still are looking at 3 months even with stability to preventing things from becoming an epic screw up. The patching is fine in general but if you check unwired 114 you will find a program can only be equipped with number of options equal to half its rating. So, you can get R4 Autosoft, with Personalization and Pluscode 1 if you feel so inclined. (All be it you add another month to the process, but thats not huge deal.) Its worth mentioning that the bigger downside imo is the karma cost.

[Laughing One]

TM: Hey! registered machine sprite! You have the Software autosoft, cause the resonance cheats like that. Make me a personalized program option, and rush the job because you have stability.

*two weeks of occasionally reregistering two sprites*
TM: "Hey! now use Patching to add it into this pirated autosoft before it degrades."
*one week later*
TM: Emulates a newly-personalized skillsoft, and learns it.

Additionally, if you're looking to really optimize your emulations, grab Pluscode 6, not 3.

3 may seem like the sweet spot, because it lets you run a r4 with only 1 'skillwire slot' taken up.
However, sprite assistance adds the sprites rating to the rating of the complex form. Which means its suddenly going to hog a lot of memory on your biowires if you use this trick.
There's -usually- no reason to have an Optimized 6 option, but as a Rated complex form, it does go up that high.
For a technomancer, being able to reduce a R4 emulation boosted to r7 down to 1 slot may be worth planning for.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=817120

[Yerameyahu]

See, exactly what I asked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks!

[Dumori]

So did I but the ability to long time serrise a sprite or just reregister it while it programs you some skill softs that still dont cost you much to emulate karma wise isn't a bad deal.

[Marcus]

So did I but the ability to long time serrise a sprite or just reregister it while it programs you some skill softs that still dont cost you much to emulate karma wise isn't a bad deal.

I agree that it is a good deal. And if i ever make TM i promise i'd pick that echo up around 2nd or 3rd. The only real downside is the time. Software hacking and creation isn't a huge deal programming wise, the difficulty isn't very high, but intervals are big, programing environments can cut that in half. But even so activesoft are 6 months! Not a lot you can do about it, and if you don't score 8 hits on that test well your not gonna like it. (Not that 8 hit should be hard, given all the ways to modify it.)

[MuscaDomestica]

Can you use a Tutor Sprite to run the skill soft as a service?

Can you then learn it off them and then buy it as a CF?

[Yerameyahu]

It appears that you have to have access to actual ActiveSofts to emulate them.

[Udoshi]

Well, it appears the devs have put their foot down on boosting emulation. Oh well. Putting that in the 'should have been errata but isn't, cause Catalyst is lazy' files.

but if you check unwired 114 you will find a program can only be equipped with number of options equal to half its rating. So, you can get R4 Autosoft, with Personalization and Pluscode 1 if you feel so inclined. (

Minor nitpick: Options, not option ratings. An option, if present, can be rated from 1-6 unless its says it has its own cap, or if its unrated, in which case it counts as rating 3.
The slots you have for an option don't care about the rating of the option inside it. Just thought I'd clarify that. The only thing using a higher rating on an option does is increase the cost.

It appears that you have to have access to actual ActiveSofts to emulate them.

Yes you certainly can do that, but is there any reason you can't use threading to make one up from scratch?

Can you use a Tutor Sprite to run the skill soft as a service?

Can you then learn it off them and then buy it as a CF?

To the first, I don't think so. you need an echo in order to share complex forms and widgets with your technomancer group - or have a networking resonance bond with a free sprite.
To the second, I think you actually can, because one of the mainpurposes of sprites is to aid study, and learning a complex form directly from a sprite bypasses the emulation rules by using the generic 'learn a new complex form' rules.
However, a tutor sprite only has access to Technical, Vehicle or Knowledge skillsofts. Datasprites have Linguasofts
Machine sprites, sadly, don't work - they have autosofts, but those aren't activesofts.

I don't get it, though. Limiting technomancers to the hardware-equivalents of a ware-limited sammy doesn't seem right, when sprites just WHEEE and fly past the rating 4 limit on activesofts and programs all the time (except on expert defense and expert offense, oddly, such as on paladin sprites).

[Yerameyahu]

Yes you certainly can do that, but is there any reason you can't use threading to make one up from scratch?

Yes. The rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

Yes. The rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

would you kindly point out where it says you *must* do that?