Concealment Power too powerful? Options

[camberiu]

Please bare with me, as I am still learning the SR4 system (I am a SR2 vet).


It seems to me that the Concealment Power as described in the core book is way too powerful and would allow the players to basically waltz in almost anywhere with impunity.


Let's take for example, a character with an infiltration skill of 4 and an agility stat of 5. Now let's imagine that a friendly Force 6 Spirit uses his Concealment power on this character. Basically, from that point on anyone trying to perceive that character on the physical plane would be subjected to a -6 dice modifier AND with whatever dice pool left, would have to beat the character's Infiltration 4 + Agility 5 on a perception roll? I can't think of many places that this fella would not be able to get into. Yeah, he probably would not be able to waltz into the Aztechnology Pyramid and a few similar places, but pretty much any other lesser places would be wide open to him. Or am I missing something here?

Now, let's say this guy gets really daring and manages to convince his mage friend with Magic Attribute of 6, to summon a Force 12 Spirit. Let's say the mage friend manages to summon a force 12 spirit (and survive). Now this force 12 spirit could conceal this guy on our example and cause anyone trying to perceive him to suffer a -12 penalty on perception tests, both physically and astrally.

Now, if this I described so far is correct, my question is: Where would'd this fellow be able to sneak into? Worse, with a Force 12 spirit with concealment power, I could potentially turn any crappy commuter plane into a Stealth bomber for hell.

I must be missing something, because this power seems to be too unbalanced to make the game practical. Please let me know what I might not be considering here. Thanks.

[Fatum]

Yeah, Concealment is broken. This is partly evened out by the fact that most mages can't realistically summon Force 12 spirits, at least not without risk of injury or death; and more so by houseruling spell-like powers to be resistible. Still broken, though.

[TheOOB]

Concealment is good, but I don't think it's broken persay. Remember that is lights you up on the astral, can't be taken through a ward, leaves an astral trail to the magician, and you can still find people. Not everyone has a high infiltration+agility, but many guards have a high intuition+perception, and with perhaps dozens of guards, drones, and cameras, someone might make the check to see the runner.

I do perception checks a little differently, when there are multiple people such as grunts making a check, I uses the highest dice pool among them and add 1 for each additional person, this helps balance measures like chameleon suits and concealment.

[camberiu]

Concealment is good, but I don't think it's broken persay. Remember that is lights you up on the astral,

I don't think it "lights you up astrally", quite the opposite actually.

According to the SR4A core book, page 293:

"Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal themselves and others from astral detection."

Also, how can it leave an astral trail to the magician as it is a spirit power, not a spell?

[LurkerOutThere]

I've found the biggest check to place on concealment is a thematic one. Concealment is where the spirit does something with the enviroment according to it's nature to help hide the character, dpending ont he type and the local enviroment this activity can be unsubtle as all hell. An air spirit summons a fog bank, a plant spirit manipulates the local vegetation, etc etc, I find this helps keep the power much more in check and I seem to recall it's how the original power was worded.

But yea, it is pretty insane and falls under one of those things that people love to use but hate having used against them.

[Nath]

Force 12 spirits are too powerful, no matter which of their power you are considering.

You can argue that Concealment only applies when there would be Perception Test in the first place. As the 20th Anniversary put it, "Gamemasters should limit their uses of Perception Tests, only calling for them when something is not immediately noticeable or when a situation is so hectic that certain things might be overlooked."
Also, there is no Perception Test with trip beams, pressure pads and motion sensors, it's a fixed Threshold.

If there ought to be a Perception Test, six guards watching a well-lighted small room would get a +7 modifier (+1 per guard after the first one if they do a single group roll, +2 because the character is going to stand out in the otherwise empty room). With Intuition 3, Perception 4 (Sight 6) and Enhancement 3, there would still be 13 dices against a Power 6 spirit Concealment power.

Otherwise, one Magician with Detect Life spell or Detect Magic spell (which is gonna pick up the spirit itself). In this case, it is not a Perception Test, it's a Resistance Test, Spellcasting+Magic against Willpower+Counterspelling.

[Mardrax]

Otherwise, one Magician with Detect Life spell or Detect Magic spell (which is gonna pick up the spirit itself). In this case, it is not a Perception Test, it's a Resistance Test, Spellcasting+Magic against Willpower+Counterspelling.

A spirit can turn a power on (on up to F targets simultaneously, including itself) and sustain it quite comfortably from the astral, miles away if it chooses. No way in hell anyone's going to see the spirit.

[Summerstorm]

Pretty much ALL powers are overpowered. The simple fact that most of them can't really be resisted is harsh enough.
I mean come on: Will against crap like magic+stat makes every power pretty much impossible to keep at bay, if the monster in question is powerful enough. Things like Fear, Influence maybe Paralyzing Howl are pretty harsh.

Others, even most get resisted with TWO attributes: Desire reflection, Compulsion. And other, like Confusion at least don't cripple you THAT bad. Those should be the norm.

In regards to concealment: At least you can get the "invisible" people still with chokepoints {A door will know if it is opened, no matter how concealed the dude is}, also perception is one of the easiest to boost and easiest to gain bonus dice for. So it isn't THAT bad overall.

[Critias]

Don't forget that Concealment only helps against actual Perception tests. Security systems can still go off, they still need to get past doors or through windows, that sort of thing. It helps with one aspect of infiltrating a facility, sure, but it's not an automatic "get into anywhere" power.

[Yerameyahu]

It is indeed a great power, though. It's good against many things, stacks, etc. Be creative with it, and against it, and if it's making your games unfun, dial it back.

[Bodak]

Concealment is good, but I don't think it's broken persay.

Was that a glitched attempt at writing "per se"?

Otherwise, one Magician with Detect Life spell or Detect Magic spell (which is gonna pick up the spirit itself).

Detect Life doesn't pick up spirits.

A spirit can turn a power on (on up to F targets simultaneously, including itself) and sustain it quite comfortably from the astral, miles away if it chooses. No way in hell anyone's going to see the spirit.

If it's a physical power, it does need to materialise / possess first before it can activate. But then as you say it can go back to the astral and go over the hills and far away while sustaining that power. That might forfeit remaining services but it can still do it. If it keeps travelling toward the setting sun / away from the rising sun so that it never experiences dawn / dusk, does that postpone its departure back to the metaplanes indefinitely?

[Saint Hallow]

I play at Camberiu's game & can tell you first hand the insane power that Concealment has & how we've abused it with our mage.

[Critias]

I play at Camberiu's game & can tell you first hand the insane power that Concealment has & how we've abused it with our mage.

So why aren't the NPCs doing the same thing? Why aren't security patrols roaming the compounds you're infiltrating while Concealed, for instance? If it's something that's so "insane" and being "abused," it sounds to me like something that's certainly fair game for the GM (or, rather, the NPCs) to know about and be willing and able to use.

And, again, how is Concealment helping with security systems and locked doors and wards and the like? Perception/Infiltration rolls are just one part of a multi-step process, I'm a little surprised it's affecting the game as much as you say it is.

[Saint Hallow]

Our mage summons a powerful spirit to use it concealment power on us, then as we're sneaking in/around, the mage then uses trid phantasm to make whatever door/window we're about to open look like it's shut. Shape Metal the door open, we go through, shape it close, drop the phantasm. That's how we've been bypassing metal doors & cameras.

[Manunancy]

Our mage summons a powerful spirit to use it concealment power on us, then as we're sneaking in/around, the mage then uses trid phantasm to make whatever door/window we're about to open look like it's shut. Shape Metal the door open, we go through, shape it close, drop the phantasm. That's how we've been bypassing metal doors & cameras.

There's a little problem with that door-breaching method : how does the mage know what the door's looking like on the inside ? If a grunt or a cam see the door chaging colors (no reason it's the same color inside as outside) or the panic bar turning into a keypad-and handle setup similar to what's on the outside, odds are he'll sound the alert. A radar or ultrasound sensor on the inside will also pick the hole appearign in the door and might sound an alarm (not as bad as someone moving around, but possible)

And depending on the door's structure, 'shape metal might not be enough : if it's a fire door, the fire-resistant core won't be metal and you will spill it out when passing thorough. And almost every outer door will include thermal insulation - wether styrofoam or rockwool and you're going to spill it around as you go through the door.

A high security door is also likely to include some security against breaching by checking the door's physical integrity, to prevent tht sort of shenanigans.

you method is effective but not foolproof, it can still fail (and if you rely on it over and over with little checking it's going to raise the alert sooner or later)

[Irion]

you method is effective but not foolproof, it can still fail (and if you rely on it over and over with little checking it's going to raise the alert sooner or later)

It is even quite cartoon style. I mean, it is so obvious hidden...
Going to a Store, wraping up stuff in a green cloth and carry it out of the door.
Yes, nobody sees you are stealing the laptop. But even if you are invisible they see a green bag floating out of the door...

[Aerospider]

Our mage summons a powerful spirit to use it concealment power on us, then as we're sneaking in/around, the mage then uses trid phantasm to make whatever door/window we're about to open look like it's shut. Shape Metal the door open, we go through, shape it close, drop the phantasm. That's how we've been bypassing metal doors & cameras.

If you're using at least two spells and decent infiltration stats as well as the power then it's a bit of a stretch to call it broken. Especially when (as has been shown) the GM is going easy on you by allowing that to be enough.

Remember that in the grand scheme of things, all the tools you are applying to the infiltration effort are rare and powerful. Shadowrunners are paid well for their abilities as well as the willingness to play for high stakes. What you have here is a power that does what it's supposed to do and you'd have more right to qualms if it didn't.

[Machiavelli]

Did you all recognize that most of the so broken powers, items, spells, gear, armor, machinery etc. are only broken because the players OR the GM lacks the specific knowledge how exactly the game mechanics are used? Magic particularily can me massively broken because of the very vague descriptions. This seduces powergamers to interpret rules in ways they like, but if you have some common sense you can stop them immediately. If you don´t use counterspelling, sensors, wards etc. you cannot complain. Summerstorm pointed it out very good: fear for example is something broken because you defend with only one stat, while he attacks with 2. But this works the other way round as well. As you know we are running Ghost Cartels at the moment and a force 6 shedim used his fear power on me. After getting sane again, i used one of my force 4 spirits to do the same with him....and now he was the running one. He is as defenseless against this kind of powers as anybody else...so what? About concealment: Summoning a force 6 spirit can kill or incapacitate you, while it only subtracts 6 dices from one of the usually highest dicepools in the game. No DP is easier to raise, no DP has more (especially positive) modifiers. So what? I would never depend solely on this power and higher force spirits are possible, but not very common. IF you are able to summon such an entity AND sustain multiple spells (as i remember shape element AND trid phantasm has a rather high drain) you earned to sneak in facilities very easy.

[ikarinokami]

I had to smile at this thread. The mage in question does all those because if he didnt she we would die.

There is no dodge in this game. if we are ever deteched the likley hood of our death is pretty high. we have been detected a few times, and each time i barely make it out alive.

now as to why my mage would summon a force 12 spirit. let see she just by the luckiest roll in my life survive a 21P meleee hit from a force 12 spirit, and before she could heal got attacked by another force 6 spirit and thanks to an awesome roll by the adapt that was carrying her lived. so if i going to die, i would rather die trying to summon a force 12 spirit then get eating by one. needless to say our GM takes the Geek the mage first rule to heart.

of course what did we use to the force 12 spirit to do, well to run. As far as i am concerned im just happy if we make it out alive on any these runs alive or even under my own power.

so dont want to hear any of this poor GM stuff, and I assure you, that everything we use again them, they use against us.

and quite frankly if we didnt so some power and paranora on inflitration, we would be dead already. If we have to fire a shot or are in combat on run of these runs, something has gone wrong, and more likley than not, the pc are not going to survive. So whatever it takes to be as undetectable as possible is my motto.

The way i see it. The character exists in a world were a 12 year old with a gun kill you, so you take every precaution you have to, you use every skill and power at your disposal to live to see another day, because a rent a cop with any fire arm who gets the drop on you is just likely to kill you as red samarui team or force 12 spirit in this world

This post has been edited by ikarinokami: Sep 12 2011, 09:50 AM

[Traul]

*grabs popcorn*

[Blade]

A thermal smoke grenade + a flash-pak + a loud explosion wil give perception modifiers, but they won't be subtle ways to get past guards.

The same might be said about the concealment power. A Force 12 spirit manipulates the environment in order to conceal the target, giving a -12 perception modifier to notice it. To grant such a high modifier, the concealment effect might be pretty obvious.

[Shortstraw]

Screw the sensors I just set monowire all over my hallways then all you have to do is follow the blood.

[Irion]

So it is the same result as usally:
Summoning is broken!
It is in no way sane that a stupid little fucker with 50 Karma is able to command a beeing godlike intelligenz just for the heck of it.
A Force 12 Spirit gets an intellect of 24 (kombination of Logic and Intuition).
Thats beyond even the most augmented human. A Pixi might be able to get that high, if you go for crome critters and genetically altered pixies.

And you know, the powers do also scale with the force.
Concealmet is broken to begin with. No defance against it, you do not even need to know about the guy you are hitting with this.
It hits all kinds of perception. I mean a simple troll does not care about the camelion suite. Concealment reduces his dice too.

Broken spirit + broken power =broken? How would have thought of that?


So if I get you group problem right, the GM is abusing high force spirits as is the group. Maybe both of you should stop doing that, because there is no way a Sam is able do do anything against a force 12 spirit. (Well, there are very special builds for sams out there, who can....)

[ikarinokami]

The Gm was not abusing the spirits. Within the context of the mission it was perfectly reasonable and logical that, that level astral security would exits.

Our characters knew that going in, but having failed a few missions before the last couple of successful ones, we can't exactly turn down jobs.

This post has been edited by ikarinokami: Sep 12 2011, 12:00 PM

[Seriously Mike]

There is no dodge in this game. if we are ever deteched the likley hood of our death is pretty high. we have been detected a few times, and each time i barely make it out alive.

No dodge? Well that's freakin' news. First, there IS such a skill as Dodge, to say nothing of the Full Defense action - if you're getting shot at, it's wiser to cartwheel your ass behind the nearest obstacle, be it a corner, a copy machine, a large crate or a car, than stay in the open and return fire.