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camberiu
Please bare with me, as I am still learning the SR4 system (I am a SR2 vet).


It seems to me that the Concealment Power as described in the core book is way too powerful and would allow the players to basically waltz in almost anywhere with impunity.


Let's take for example, a character with an infiltration skill of 4 and an agility stat of 5. Now let's imagine that a friendly Force 6 Spirit uses his Concealment power on this character. Basically, from that point on anyone trying to perceive that character on the physical plane would be subjected to a -6 dice modifier AND with whatever dice pool left, would have to beat the character's Infiltration 4 + Agility 5 on a perception roll? I can't think of many places that this fella would not be able to get into. Yeah, he probably would not be able to waltz into the Aztechnology Pyramid and a few similar places, but pretty much any other lesser places would be wide open to him. Or am I missing something here?

Now, let's say this guy gets really daring and manages to convince his mage friend with Magic Attribute of 6, to summon a Force 12 Spirit. Let's say the mage friend manages to summon a force 12 spirit (and survive). Now this force 12 spirit could conceal this guy on our example and cause anyone trying to perceive him to suffer a -12 penalty on perception tests, both physically and astrally.

Now, if this I described so far is correct, my question is: Where would'd this fellow be able to sneak into? Worse, with a Force 12 spirit with concealment power, I could potentially turn any crappy commuter plane into a Stealth bomber for hell.

I must be missing something, because this power seems to be too unbalanced to make the game practical. Please let me know what I might not be considering here. Thanks.
Fatum
Yeah, Concealment is broken. This is partly evened out by the fact that most mages can't realistically summon Force 12 spirits, at least not without risk of injury or death; and more so by houseruling spell-like powers to be resistible. Still broken, though.
TheOOB
Concealment is good, but I don't think it's broken persay. Remember that is lights you up on the astral, can't be taken through a ward, leaves an astral trail to the magician, and you can still find people. Not everyone has a high infiltration+agility, but many guards have a high intuition+perception, and with perhaps dozens of guards, drones, and cameras, someone might make the check to see the runner.

I do perception checks a little differently, when there are multiple people such as grunts making a check, I uses the highest dice pool among them and add 1 for each additional person, this helps balance measures like chameleon suits and concealment.
camberiu
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Sep 11 2011, 11:24 PM) *
Concealment is good, but I don't think it's broken persay. Remember that is lights you up on the astral,


I don't think it "lights you up astrally", quite the opposite actually.

According to the SR4A core book, page 293:

"Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal themselves and others from astral detection."

Also, how can it leave an astral trail to the magician as it is a spirit power, not a spell?
LurkerOutThere
I've found the biggest check to place on concealment is a thematic one. Concealment is where the spirit does something with the enviroment according to it's nature to help hide the character, dpending ont he type and the local enviroment this activity can be unsubtle as all hell. An air spirit summons a fog bank, a plant spirit manipulates the local vegetation, etc etc, I find this helps keep the power much more in check and I seem to recall it's how the original power was worded.

But yea, it is pretty insane and falls under one of those things that people love to use but hate having used against them.
Nath
Force 12 spirits are too powerful, no matter which of their power you are considering.

You can argue that Concealment only applies when there would be Perception Test in the first place. As the 20th Anniversary put it, "Gamemasters should limit their uses of Perception Tests, only calling for them when something is not immediately noticeable or when a situation is so hectic that certain things might be overlooked."
Also, there is no Perception Test with trip beams, pressure pads and motion sensors, it's a fixed Threshold.

If there ought to be a Perception Test, six guards watching a well-lighted small room would get a +7 modifier (+1 per guard after the first one if they do a single group roll, +2 because the character is going to stand out in the otherwise empty room). With Intuition 3, Perception 4 (Sight 6) and Enhancement 3, there would still be 13 dices against a Power 6 spirit Concealment power.

Otherwise, one Magician with Detect Life spell or Detect Magic spell (which is gonna pick up the spirit itself). In this case, it is not a Perception Test, it's a Resistance Test, Spellcasting+Magic against Willpower+Counterspelling.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Nath @ Sep 12 2011, 12:51 AM) *
Otherwise, one Magician with Detect Life spell or Detect Magic spell (which is gonna pick up the spirit itself). In this case, it is not a Perception Test, it's a Resistance Test, Spellcasting+Magic against Willpower+Counterspelling.

A spirit can turn a power on (on up to F targets simultaneously, including itself) and sustain it quite comfortably from the astral, miles away if it chooses. No way in hell anyone's going to see the spirit.
Summerstorm
Pretty much ALL powers are overpowered. The simple fact that most of them can't really be resisted is harsh enough.
I mean come on: Will against crap like magic+stat makes every power pretty much impossible to keep at bay, if the monster in question is powerful enough. Things like Fear, Influence maybe Paralyzing Howl are pretty harsh.

Others, even most get resisted with TWO attributes: Desire reflection, Compulsion. And other, like Confusion at least don't cripple you THAT bad. Those should be the norm.

In regards to concealment: At least you can get the "invisible" people still with chokepoints {A door will know if it is opened, no matter how concealed the dude is}, also perception is one of the easiest to boost and easiest to gain bonus dice for. So it isn't THAT bad overall.
Critias
Don't forget that Concealment only helps against actual Perception tests. Security systems can still go off, they still need to get past doors or through windows, that sort of thing. It helps with one aspect of infiltrating a facility, sure, but it's not an automatic "get into anywhere" power.
Yerameyahu
It is indeed a great power, though. It's good against many things, stacks, etc. Be creative with it, and against it, and if it's making your games unfun, dial it back.
Bodak
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Sep 12 2011, 08:24 AM) *
Concealment is good, but I don't think it's broken persay.
Was that a glitched attempt at writing "per se"?
QUOTE (Nath @ Sep 12 2011, 08:51 AM) *
Otherwise, one Magician with Detect Life spell or Detect Magic spell (which is gonna pick up the spirit itself).
Detect Life doesn't pick up spirits.
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Sep 12 2011, 09:02 AM) *
A spirit can turn a power on (on up to F targets simultaneously, including itself) and sustain it quite comfortably from the astral, miles away if it chooses. No way in hell anyone's going to see the spirit.
If it's a physical power, it does need to materialise / possess first before it can activate. But then as you say it can go back to the astral and go over the hills and far away while sustaining that power. That might forfeit remaining services but it can still do it. If it keeps travelling toward the setting sun / away from the rising sun so that it never experiences dawn / dusk, does that postpone its departure back to the metaplanes indefinitely?
Saint Hallow
I play at Camberiu's game & can tell you first hand the insane power that Concealment has & how we've abused it with our mage.
Critias
QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Sep 11 2011, 10:12 PM) *
I play at Camberiu's game & can tell you first hand the insane power that Concealment has & how we've abused it with our mage.

So why aren't the NPCs doing the same thing? Why aren't security patrols roaming the compounds you're infiltrating while Concealed, for instance? If it's something that's so "insane" and being "abused," it sounds to me like something that's certainly fair game for the GM (or, rather, the NPCs) to know about and be willing and able to use.

And, again, how is Concealment helping with security systems and locked doors and wards and the like? Perception/Infiltration rolls are just one part of a multi-step process, I'm a little surprised it's affecting the game as much as you say it is.
Saint Hallow
Our mage summons a powerful spirit to use it concealment power on us, then as we're sneaking in/around, the mage then uses trid phantasm to make whatever door/window we're about to open look like it's shut. Shape Metal the door open, we go through, shape it close, drop the phantasm. That's how we've been bypassing metal doors & cameras.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Sep 12 2011, 05:24 AM) *
Our mage summons a powerful spirit to use it concealment power on us, then as we're sneaking in/around, the mage then uses trid phantasm to make whatever door/window we're about to open look like it's shut. Shape Metal the door open, we go through, shape it close, drop the phantasm. That's how we've been bypassing metal doors & cameras.


There's a little problem with that door-breaching method : how does the mage know what the door's looking like on the inside ? If a grunt or a cam see the door chaging colors (no reason it's the same color inside as outside) or the panic bar turning into a keypad-and handle setup similar to what's on the outside, odds are he'll sound the alert. A radar or ultrasound sensor on the inside will also pick the hole appearign in the door and might sound an alarm (not as bad as someone moving around, but possible)

And depending on the door's structure, 'shape metal might not be enough : if it's a fire door, the fire-resistant core won't be metal and you will spill it out when passing thorough. And almost every outer door will include thermal insulation - wether styrofoam or rockwool and you're going to spill it around as you go through the door.

A high security door is also likely to include some security against breaching by checking the door's physical integrity, to prevent tht sort of shenanigans.

you method is effective but not foolproof, it can still fail (and if you rely on it over and over with little checking it's going to raise the alert sooner or later)
Irion
QUOTE
you method is effective but not foolproof, it can still fail (and if you rely on it over and over with little checking it's going to raise the alert sooner or later)

It is even quite cartoon style. I mean, it is so obvious hidden...
Going to a Store, wraping up stuff in a green cloth and carry it out of the door.
Yes, nobody sees you are stealing the laptop. But even if you are invisible they see a green bag floating out of the door...
Aerospider
QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Sep 12 2011, 04:24 AM) *
Our mage summons a powerful spirit to use it concealment power on us, then as we're sneaking in/around, the mage then uses trid phantasm to make whatever door/window we're about to open look like it's shut. Shape Metal the door open, we go through, shape it close, drop the phantasm. That's how we've been bypassing metal doors & cameras.

If you're using at least two spells and decent infiltration stats as well as the power then it's a bit of a stretch to call it broken. Especially when (as has been shown) the GM is going easy on you by allowing that to be enough.

Remember that in the grand scheme of things, all the tools you are applying to the infiltration effort are rare and powerful. Shadowrunners are paid well for their abilities as well as the willingness to play for high stakes. What you have here is a power that does what it's supposed to do and you'd have more right to qualms if it didn't.
Machiavelli
Did you all recognize that most of the so broken powers, items, spells, gear, armor, machinery etc. are only broken because the players OR the GM lacks the specific knowledge how exactly the game mechanics are used? Magic particularily can me massively broken because of the very vague descriptions. This seduces powergamers to interpret rules in ways they like, but if you have some common sense you can stop them immediately. If you donīt use counterspelling, sensors, wards etc. you cannot complain. Summerstorm pointed it out very good: fear for example is something broken because you defend with only one stat, while he attacks with 2. But this works the other way round as well. As you know we are running Ghost Cartels at the moment and a force 6 shedim used his fear power on me. After getting sane again, i used one of my force 4 spirits to do the same with him....and now he was the running one. He is as defenseless against this kind of powers as anybody else...so what? About concealment: Summoning a force 6 spirit can kill or incapacitate you, while it only subtracts 6 dices from one of the usually highest dicepools in the game. No DP is easier to raise, no DP has more (especially positive) modifiers. So what? I would never depend solely on this power and higher force spirits are possible, but not very common. IF you are able to summon such an entity AND sustain multiple spells (as i remember shape element AND trid phantasm has a rather high drain) you earned to sneak in facilities very easy.
ikarinokami
I had to smile at this thread. The mage in question does all those because if he didnt she we would die.

There is no dodge in this game. if we are ever deteched the likley hood of our death is pretty high. we have been detected a few times, and each time i barely make it out alive.

now as to why my mage would summon a force 12 spirit. let see she just by the luckiest roll in my life survive a 21P meleee hit from a force 12 spirit, and before she could heal got attacked by another force 6 spirit and thanks to an awesome roll by the adapt that was carrying her lived. so if i going to die, i would rather die trying to summon a force 12 spirit then get eating by one. needless to say our GM takes the Geek the mage first rule to heart.

of course what did we use to the force 12 spirit to do, well to run. As far as i am concerned im just happy if we make it out alive on any these runs alive or even under my own power.

so dont want to hear any of this poor GM stuff, and I assure you, that everything we use again them, they use against us.

and quite frankly if we didnt so some power and paranora on inflitration, we would be dead already. If we have to fire a shot or are in combat on run of these runs, something has gone wrong, and more likley than not, the pc are not going to survive. So whatever it takes to be as undetectable as possible is my motto.

The way i see it. The character exists in a world were a 12 year old with a gun kill you, so you take every precaution you have to, you use every skill and power at your disposal to live to see another day, because a rent a cop with any fire arm who gets the drop on you is just likely to kill you as red samarui team or force 12 spirit in this world
Traul
*grabs popcorn*
Blade
A thermal smoke grenade + a flash-pak + a loud explosion wil give perception modifiers, but they won't be subtle ways to get past guards.

The same might be said about the concealment power. A Force 12 spirit manipulates the environment in order to conceal the target, giving a -12 perception modifier to notice it. To grant such a high modifier, the concealment effect might be pretty obvious.
Shortstraw
Screw the sensors I just set monowire all over my hallways then all you have to do is follow the blood.
Irion
So it is the same result as usally:
Summoning is broken!
It is in no way sane that a stupid little fucker with 50 Karma is able to command a beeing godlike intelligenz just for the heck of it.
A Force 12 Spirit gets an intellect of 24 (kombination of Logic and Intuition).
Thats beyond even the most augmented human. A Pixi might be able to get that high, if you go for crome critters and genetically altered pixies.

And you know, the powers do also scale with the force.
Concealmet is broken to begin with. No defance against it, you do not even need to know about the guy you are hitting with this.
It hits all kinds of perception. I mean a simple troll does not care about the camelion suite. Concealment reduces his dice too.

Broken spirit + broken power =broken? How would have thought of that?


So if I get you group problem right, the GM is abusing high force spirits as is the group. Maybe both of you should stop doing that, because there is no way a Sam is able do do anything against a force 12 spirit. (Well, there are very special builds for sams out there, who can....)
ikarinokami
The Gm was not abusing the spirits. Within the context of the mission it was perfectly reasonable and logical that, that level astral security would exits.

Our characters knew that going in, but having failed a few missions before the last couple of successful ones, we can't exactly turn down jobs.
Seriously Mike
QUOTE (ikarinokami @ Sep 12 2011, 11:35 AM) *
There is no dodge in this game. if we are ever deteched the likley hood of our death is pretty high. we have been detected a few times, and each time i barely make it out alive.
No dodge? Well that's freakin' news. First, there IS such a skill as Dodge, to say nothing of the Full Defense action - if you're getting shot at, it's wiser to cartwheel your ass behind the nearest obstacle, be it a corner, a copy machine, a large crate or a car, than stay in the open and return fire.
ikarinokami
Nope no dodge skill or reaction roll on firearms. No stick and shock. A fire fight will get you killed. Fighting spirits will get you killed. Stay hidden, and run like hell if you get spotted.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Irion @ Sep 12 2011, 11:35 AM) *
So it is the same result as usally:
Summoning is broken!
It is in no way sane that a stupid little fucker with 50 Karma is able to command a beeing godlike intelligenz just for the heck of it.
A Force 12 Spirit gets an intellect of 24 (kombination of Logic and Intuition).
Thats beyond even the most augmented human. A Pixi might be able to get that high, if you go for crome critters and genetically altered pixies.

And you know, the powers do also scale with the force.
Concealmet is broken to begin with. No defance against it, you do not even need to know about the guy you are hitting with this.
It hits all kinds of perception. I mean a simple troll does not care about the camelion suite. Concealment reduces his dice too.

Broken spirit + broken power =broken? How would have thought of that?


So if I get you group problem right, the GM is abusing high force spirits as is the group. Maybe both of you should stop doing that, because there is no way a Sam is able do do anything against a force 12 spirit. (Well, there are very special builds for sams out there, who can....)

It's not much of a challenge to show something as broken if you don't factor in any of the negative aspects. Not very enlightening either.

A Force 12 spirit will deal an average of 8 physical drain, assuming the "stupid little fucker" doesn't have Magic 12. Specifically, there's a 61% chance of at least 8P, 37% chance of at least 10P and 18% chance of at least 12P, at which point we're at instant death levels if the drain roll isn't good. And that's assuming the spirit doesn't use Edge, which it really would.

For players, particularly starting ones, this is a really big deal – especially since a lot of BP/Karma needs to be sunk into the summoning pool just to have a reliable chance of achieving some net hits in order to actually make use of the spirit. And you might only need 50 Karma to be able to do it (not quite sure how you came to this, since Magic 6 alone is 50 BP minimum) but if you don't pile the BP/Karma into your drain attributes too then your prospects are even worse.

For the megas? They'll want bound spirits for their patrols (since security is constant whilst infiltration is ad hoc) and binding a Force 12 spirit is even more unfeasible. You're now looking at an 74% chance of at least 14P drain and 58% chance of at least 16P drain, again without Edge. The expense of a mage who has the minimum Magic rating to even try is very high, so no corp is ever going to put their wage-mages' lives at such risk on this level of defence.

To surmise – yes, a Force 12 spirit should not be expected in any kind of corporate security that isn't guarding something that will bring down the entire AAA on its own. But it is not broken that magicians are able to dabble in the great power of spirits because the costs and risks are also great. The balance may not be quite right for you, but a one-sided argument focused on the most extreme and rare of cases is not a good one.
Seriously Mike
QUOTE (ikarinokami @ Sep 12 2011, 01:20 PM) *
Nope no dodge skill or reaction roll on firearms. No stick and shock. A fire fight will get you killed. Fighting spirits will get you killed. Stay hidden, and run like hell if you get spotted.
Well now that's weird, since you specifically have a reaction roll against being shot and if you declare Full Defense, you can add Dodge to that (SR4, p. 151). And that, kids, is the difference between a Killer Game Master and a schmuck that can't even be bothered to read the bloody rulebook.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 12 2011, 10:59 AM) *
A thermal smoke grenade + a flash-pak + a loud explosion wil give perception modifiers, but they won't be subtle ways to get past guards.

The same might be said about the concealment power. A Force 12 spirit manipulates the environment in order to conceal the target, giving a -12 perception modifier to notice it. To grant such a high modifier, the concealment effect might be pretty obvious.
???? You are joking, arenīt you? Blade...master of english humor and sarcasm.^^ ....."so unsuspicious that you are flashy again"....funny.
ikarinokami
QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 12 2011, 07:18 AM) *
Well now that's weird, since you specifically have a reaction roll against being shot and if you declare Full Defense, you can add Dodge to that (SR4, p. 151). And that, kids, is the difference between a Killer Game Master and a schmuck that can't even be bothered to read the bloody rulebook.



Its a house rule. Full defense and reaction is still allowed on melee and thrown weapons but not on firearms, indirect combat spells or elemental power attacks. The game is extremely lethal. We know the rules. The Gm just likes a very lethal game.
Mardrax
QUOTE (ikarinokami @ Sep 12 2011, 02:35 PM) *
Its a house rule. Full defense and reaction is still allowed on melee and thrown weapons but not on firearms, indirect combat spells or elemental power attacks. The game is extremely lethal. We know the rules. The Gm just likes a very lethal game.

And really, (ab)use of options to stay out of said combat is what it results in.
For the players: don't forget the chameleon suit with thermal dampening for another -4 on normal perception and -6 on thermal. wink.gif
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (ikarinokami @ Sep 12 2011, 07:35 AM) *
Its a house rule. Full defense and reaction is still allowed on melee and thrown weapons but not on firearms, indirect combat spells or elemental power attacks. The game is extremely lethal. We know the rules. The Gm just likes a very lethal game.

Here we go again. If you're discussing house rules, please say so up front, otherwise everyone will think you are discussing the rules as written and confusion will abound.




-k
Machiavelli
KarmaInferno is right. If you donīt like to dodge, play SR3. ^^
camberiu
wait, what dodge has to do with the concealment power? How did this discussion veer into that? Whatever dodge is allowed or not has NOTHING TO DO with the concealment power discussion. Just wanted to make that clear.
Critias
QUOTE (camberiu @ Sep 12 2011, 09:51 AM) *
wait, what dodge has to do with the concealment power? How did this discussion veer into that? Whatever dodge is allowed or not has NOTHING TO DO with the concealment power discussion. Just wanted to make that clear.

Except that it pretty obviously does, because one of the players brought up the lack of dodging as the reason they're being so concerned with stealth and perception (IE, "abusing" the concealment power). You're insisting that the AIDS epidemic has nothing to do with condom usage, basically. If your players are terrified of getting into a fight, it's only natural they're going to find everything they can find that increases their methods of avoiding those fights.
Machiavelli
Sometimes you bring it down to the point...i like that.^^
camberiu
QUOTE (Critias @ Sep 12 2011, 03:57 PM) *
If your players are terrified of getting into a fight, it's only natural they're going to find everything they can find that increases their methods of avoiding those fights.



I have no problem with them being terrified of firefights. I have no problem with them doing everything they can to avoid those fights. I am all for them trying to be as stealthy, discreet and "black ops" as possible. I just want to make sure we are reading, interpreting and using the concealment rules correctly. I don't see what the discussion of the correct use of the concealment rules has anything to do with dodge.
Saint Hallow
First off, let me say sorry for omitting some info here. We appreciate the info people are giving us about spirit powers & such...

1. GM has decided to make the game more lethal, a la SR3 combat rules regarding firearms. No Dodge or Reaction rolls to avoid gunfire, Indirect Spells, & other forms of high-speed ranged attacks.
2. You are right the GM has NOT thought about ways to circumvent our mage(s) from summoning a really powerful spirit & having it use its Concealment powers on us & other abilities to overcome a majority of obstacles.
3. I feel the things we have done were in reaction to prior runs we had, in which we failed utterly, due to being quickly overwhelmed by the GM's use of op-forces. 1 of our very first games had us going against a squad of Red Samurai in a VTOL. There was also a dragon in another session.
4. Some of you have brought some good points about how Conceallment doesn't work against pressure plates, laser tripwires, MAD scanners, or cameras focused on other things than people.
5. The Concealment power is rather vague on if it's Physical or Mana based & agaisnt which sense it applies to. So far, from what we can tell, Concealment affects visual & hearing. We haven't tried taste, touch, or smell.
6. I think a majority of the things we have NOT encountered (on the technical side of things) is due to fact we lack a Hacker & Rigger. So B&E stuff that require technical skills have been out of our domain.

I saw a majority of people were in agreement that Spirit powers are awesomely overwhelming & powerful. Magic (when strong enough) means you can do anything.
Traul
The problem is not Concealment, it is Concealment from a Force 12 Spirit. Players are not supposed to summon such a beast on a regular basis, and when they do, it is certainly not supposed to be to cast Concealment. It is your houserule that made the drain from a Force 12 spirit look like the safe solution.

Concealment is good against astral perception, it is good because it stacks with gear, but it is not more powerful than gear as long as the mage does not oversummon.
QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Sep 12 2011, 04:12 PM) *
6. I think a majority of the things we have NOT encountered (on the technical side of things) is due to fact we lack a Hacker & Rigger. So B&E stuff that require technical skills have been out of our domain.

B&E does not require a lot of skill: the tools almost work on their own, but they are expensive. A decent logic and a couple of ranks in Hardware should be enough, so it's an easy branch even for an hermetic mage. The hacker's job is more to shut the sensors down.
Saint Hallow
We have no houserule regarding drain. Our mage is uber-specialized, & such has always somehow avoided suffering any type of major drain. How she has been able to summon force 12 sapirits is beyond me. I don't say anything b/c I wanna live & hope all my runs are milk runs with a Force 12 backing us up. As I posted before, it seems with Magic, you can do anything... get it high enough & powerful enough that is.
Traul
QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Sep 12 2011, 04:21 PM) *
We have no houserule regarding drain.

Let me rephrase that: it is the no dodge houserule that made taking the drain from a Force 12 Spirit look safer than risking to get spotted.
Critias
QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Sep 12 2011, 10:21 AM) *
As I posted before, it seems with Magic, you can do anything... get it high enough & powerful enough that is.

Well, if your group sees mundane combat as an automatic failure and you don't have a rigger or a hacker (so that you GM is ignoring electronics and technology, pretty much) then sure. You guys are then going to (naturally) see magic (the only staple of the setting that remains) as the answer to all life's little problems.
ikarinokami
I survived the summoning on the force 12 spirit because of luck. the GM rolled one 1 hit on the opposed test.

I usally stick with a force 6 spirit. Again in the context the ONLY reason we lived is because i had a force 12 spirit. it was not overkill, and it and oursevles barely made it out alive. Yes our opposition was that intense.

And saint hollow is right, i really don't like summoning that much, but we didnt have a hacker or a rigger, or anyway to deal with tech. we did a few runs without summoning, and needless to say, it did not go well, a hairs breath from a TPK.

To Me the game is working about right, if you are on a run and you get caught, the likelyhood of death and a TPK is high.

We are definately applying the concealment rules correctly. as for being overpowered, i dont think so. There are counter measures like wards. We have another house rule, where attacking disrupts the power.

The majority of time on our runs, is spent planning, and thinking of ways to make quietest and most undectable entry possible, and to leave unnoticed. and for that we use, our magic, every tech, and every skill and lot time to make that endevour possible.
Fortinbras
Don't forget that to use the Critter powers literally is against the rules.

QUOTE (SR4A)
The game mechanics given for the powers below are not intended
as hard and fast rules, but as guidelines for the gamemaster. Players
should never be absolutely certain of the capabilities of a critter, particularly
Awakened ones. There is always a chance that a power may work
slightly differently for one particular paracritter, especially one designated
as a prime runner critter. Uncertainty is a wonderful dramatic tool.


If you play the Critter powers as written, you aren't playing by the rules as written. If that helps to scale it down or interpret the ability of what ever you like.
DamienKnight
First... Force 12 spirits have 12 edge... they are almost always going to use at least one point of that on the summoning test. Force 12 spirits KILL mages.

Second.. Concealment can always be beaten by a spirit of equal force. Spirits have intuition = force, and perception= force max of 6. A force 6 spirit will have 12 perception dice, with 6 left over to spot another force 6 spirit after concealment is factored in.

It is very powerful. It gives magic a ridiculous edge over anything physical. Spirits are pwn.

If you are having difficulty accepting the unbalanced spirit powers, here are two house rules I recommend:

1. Concealment grants bonus dice to stealth tests, instead of reducing opponents perception dice.

2. Mages can use their banishing dice as a kind of counter-spelling again spirit powers.

The second rule makes banishing an actually useful skill, and still only adds a few dice to defend against what is usually Spirit Force x 2, so its not unbalancing.
Seriously Mike
Uhhh... Isn't the drain value a constant you have to soak with Willpower+Logic? My guess is that mage thought about that in advance and has at least decent pool for that, like 7-8 dice. But it still can tear the mage's ass off, pretty literally.
Draco18s
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Sep 12 2011, 11:47 AM) *
Spirits have intuition = force, and perception= force max of 6.


Uh. Spirit skill ratings aren't capped...A force 12 spirit has, quite literally, a Perception skill rating of 12.
Nath
QUOTE (Nath @ Sep 12 2011, 12:51 AM) *
Otherwise, one Magician with Detect Life spell or Detect Magic spell (which is gonna pick up the spirit itself). In this case, it is not a Perception Test, it's a Resistance Test, Spellcasting+Magic against Willpower+Counterspelling.
QUOTE (Bodak @ Sep 12 2011, 04:55 AM) *
Detect Life doesn't pick up spirits.
Yes. Detect Life will instead pick up the invoker or his friends, if they did intend on using Concealment to sneak in.
ikarinokami
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Sep 12 2011, 12:47 PM) *
First... Force 12 spirits have 12 edge... they are almost always going to use at least one point of that on the summoning test. Force 12 spirits KILL mages.

Second.. Concealment can always be beaten by a spirit of equal force. Spirits have intuition = force, and perception= force max of 6. A force 6 spirit will have 12 perception dice, with 6 left over to spot another force 6 spirit after concealment is factored in.

It is very powerful. It gives magic a ridiculous edge over anything physical. Spirits are pwn.

If you are having difficulty accepting the unbalanced spirit powers, here are two house rules I recommend:

1. Concealment grants bonus dice to stealth tests, instead of reducing opponents perception dice.

2. Mages can use their banishing dice as a kind of counter-spelling again spirit powers.

The second rule makes banishing an actually useful skill, and still only adds a few dice to defend against what is usually Spirit Force x 2, so its not unbalancing.


spirits using edge on a summoning test seems alot lame to me. on a binding test sure, but for a summoning test?
ikarinokami
QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 12 2011, 12:55 PM) *
Uhhh... Isn't the drain value a constant you have to soak with Willpower+Logic? My guess is that mage thought about that in advance and has at least decent pool for that, like 7-8 dice. But it still can tear the mage's ass off, pretty literally.


no the drain value is not constant. its the number of hits it rolls on an opposed test x2. its dice pool is its force. so again, i got very lucky. the gm could have roll 12 in which case it is 24p. again it would not have mattered because if i hadnt summoned it, we were going to die.
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