Why would a Nigh Invulnerable God-like being want to serve such a squishy entity? You are absolutely nothing to him, literally. It is sheer hubris on the Mage's part to even think that he has a right to command such an Entity, let alone summon him. Spirits above a certain Power should ALWAYS Spend Edge to resist summoning. At our table, that Ranking is 4+. Some set it at Greater than the Mage's Magic Rating. I like our better. Either way does work.

Besides, Edge expenditure is at the whim of the GM. Spend it is my motto.

I'm not normally an advocate of Spirits boning the PC by spending Edge to resist a summoning test -- but when someone's summoning a powerful spirit (like they just were) and that spirit flubs it and rolls just a single success out of twelve dice? Yeah. I think it's perfectly reasonable for the GM to go ahead and have it plink away and Edge point, to reroll those failures.

I like this plan.

it's lame for the same reason that offering 10 years jail and 2.5 years post release supervision for Criminal Sale of controlled substance in third to both the guy with the book lenght rap sheet and the guy with the first arrest.

it's just tacky, can you do it sure, but that doesnt make it right.

Is it equally tacky for the spirit to use its own Edge to help with fulfilling the summoner's wishes?

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. why you would bone a player summoning a level 12 spirit the shadowrun equivilent of a hail mary pass, when they just got attacked by level 12 spirit, a level 6 spirit. more are l on the way, and not to mention a group of high level soldiers (6) on way each one more than enough to take out the team. if you are going to use to use edge on a test that normally doesnt call for it in that situation. then you should cease with the illusion of a game and kill the players outright, or switch to call of cathulu.

When you remove the ability to survive firearms then you should expect the group to turn to the next most powerful thing. The GM got exactly what he set himself up for, and that is a group that will never be shot.

in our game, a spirits edge comes from the summoners own dice pool. So it's very rarely used. edge in our game is usally used to save our skins. like resisting a 22P hit from a level 12 spirit, with only a 14 dice pool. Again i find it amusing, that everyone thinks we are waltzing through these missions.

I have been personally carried out on quite a few of them.
one of the characters had a blanked rule of no barren missions.

we are just happy when we survive these missions.

Hey, at our table, the NPC's suffer under the same rules as the PC's. You would never have faced that Force 12 Spirit at our table to start with. A Hail Mary Pass is a Force 7 Spirit, Maybe. Force 12 is something way different, in my opinion. That is the point where you run (Well anything above Force 6 really, unless you knew that going in). You do not stay around and play "Summoning" games.

You make me think of someone but who... Oh snap, that's just me (SR1 vet)


Until the spirit vanish, yes.


I don't know but not that far from the non concealed mage.

If the character have no dicepool to divide while infiltrating, and if you consider conceal to be a P+M power (it's a P power, that don't work on unliving things), yeah he can be unspot by guards, spirits and dogs. Climbing a wall and managing to bypass security systems while infiltrating is another problem.

There's a lot of cameras in Archologies.

(could say BS, still learning aswell)

We still get shot alot, but it is true, we try our very hardest not be shot, because more likely than not, at least one of us would not survive.

I think we are being rational shadowrunners. if you live in a world that is so lethal, that some punk kid can take out a prime runner, you use every trick at your disposal to hide and evade fights. For the record i don't think we have been cheesy or cheap. even with concealment we have detected a few times.

honestly i am suprised by this conversation. it was an absolute miracle we didnt have a TPK on the last mission. there is no way we make it out alive without concealment.

All we can do is share our opinions and give our advice based upon the information your group is giving us. Your GM came on here talking about how he feels the Concealment power isn't balanced. Then, a smidgen of data at a time, we've learned other parts of the story.

One part was that a Force 12 Spirit was summoned basically consequence-free, which was a concern to your GM. Then, slowly, we were told that it happened due to strange luck. When we commented that "luck" is something with a mechanic built right in to be manipulated (IE, Edge), it was only after we made those sort of suggestions that...slowly...more information trickled to us about more house rules in play. These are big things, these house rules you guys keep conveniently not mentioning, when first asking for input or advice.

Ranged combat being absurdly dangerous? Yeah, that's kind of a big deal and is naturally going to shift the nature of a campaign.

The group being absolutely worthless when it comes to electronics/technology (and as such that aspect of security being largely ignored, in-game)? Hey, that's also kind of important, and explains why there's such a magical focus going on.

Spirits only getting Edge from their spellcaster? Hey, guess what, that's nice to now when someone's bitching about spirits, and spirit summoning being too easy, and how spirits work.

Noticing the pattern here? We get a statement like "I think X is a problem," and then when we make suggestions about how to get around X, or reasons X normally isn't broken, or ways to mitigate X, or ways we got by X in our games, or ways for corporate security to be able to handle X, we get a response like "Well that won't work in our game because sky yellow moon cheese platypus rhubarb," and then we realize that you guys have yet another table rule in play that changes the whole nature of X.


You can be "amused" at what we think all you want to, but please keep in mind that the only opinions we can form are opinions based on the stuff you and your buddies tell us. So maybe to you you guys are barely surviving, but to us? All we know is:

And:

So maybe instead of being amused (and then defensive) at the suggestions people are making, you guys could be a little more communicative to begin with.

If your GM comes in here asking for help because Concealment is so powerful his players aren't being challenged, and then another player clarifies and points out that yeah, you guys are "abusing" the "insane power," and just totally "bypassing" doors and cameras all the time...well, guess what? That's the mental image we're going to get of your game, okay?

I don't think getting past Camera is that powerful. when failing to get past on detected means your death, or when they are sufficient counter measures to stop it.

I think "over powered" really depends on context, and given the rules we have regarding range combat, and the fact, that things like mono filament wire, attacking from concealment breaks the concealment, wards, doesnt work lifting objects or opening doors, to makes the power just about right.

do we use it alot, yep, is it fool proof, no. has it ever been fool proof no. if the GM wants to be ban, I'm fine with it, but I can't imagine our characters surviving more than a couple of missions or much less completeing them.

First off... as was stated in the 1st post, our GM (Camberiu) is an SR2 vet & not an SR4 person & he wanted people's opinions & thoughts about Concealment.

I think many folks here shared the consensus that Critters/Spirits & their powers do share some possible game unbalancing ramifications. Concealment being the primary power of concern.

As for how our game plays, the houserules, the checkered past/history of our runs & how our current modus operandi came about by abusing this power really isn't all that relevant anymore. Though from what people have seen here blame (if you can even call it that) is shared by both ends of the table & sides of the screen.

Well if spirits don't have their own Edge in your game then of course it will seem odd for it to use it when resisting the summoning!

It's tremendously bad form to act aloof and condescending to people trying to help you balance your game when you've totally redefined core aspects of RAW and wonder why it's all out of whack.

+10 Karma for Critias

well i wasnt being condescing. I was however disagreeing with the your fundemental point that the game is out of whack. it is not. nor do i think concealment is being abused or broken, within the context of the game it is played it is fine. The game as it stands is deadly and extremely fun, we all feel a sense a relief when we finally complete a mission which is awesome.

I did appreciate the persons, who pointed out the varies magical and technological counter measures that can be used against concealment.

I do agree though that our wonderful GM did not give proper context to the question. things like we had for the most part had only 2 or 3 players at time. that the three main players were a street sam, a sport rifle adapt and a mage. so in general our game are magic heavy, as previously we had no means of electronic counter measures, so our GM righly so did not really look into the varied varity of sensors that are possible.

I thinkwhat our GM was looking for was the different means to defeat concealment besides brute means which he had on the last run and were perfectly reasonable within the context of run.


So Thanks to everyone who gave excellent mundane choices. and apolgies to those who thought i was being condesending.

I'd vote for Engulf as the primary power to worry about. As spirit able to tag you with it, then zip off to the astral to sustain it from over yonder until you drop is quite worrisome. Or possibly Fear. That power that has you roll Will vs 2Force at LoS ranges. Or how about Movement? Ever seen a troll run 1000kph? How's about a motorcycle clocking in a safe speed of Mach 1.35? Or Mach 2.3 when used by a Force 12 spirit? And that's not even a customised motorcycle yet. Concealment really isn't all that bad.

I do not think that he was referring to the dodge skill. I read that as there is a defense or counter to any option the players or NPC’s use. Whether it is spirits, guns or hacking, you can counter everything. But I could be wrong....

Spirts above force 6 tend to be out of sanity. That is quite obvious. There are some things holding up, but in general...
And honestly, if they use edge for the summoner or not is just icing on the cake, not the real deal...

In this instance, you are. They're talking about some house rules in use at their local game, that takes away the defense rolls that are normally in place, turning every ranged attack into a resisted roll. There is no defense (reaction, or reaction + skill) roll against ranged attacks in their game.

Duh, my bad. But a lesson for the future: in a situation where you're going to die, just summon the biggest, baddest combat spirit you can, sic him on the enemies and haul ass in the opposite direction, taking advantage of the confusion.

With the weight of House Rules they are working under we really can't help them much. The reason RAW is RAW in the first place is because it works (most of the time, within reason). When you start altering what the professional game designers have made you shouldn't be surprised when the game starts really frakking up. It's like popping the hood of the car and removing things that you don't think are important... and then the AC doesn't work, or the lights don't work, or the brakes don't work.

EDIT:
My land speed record with a 400 BP character is Mach 4.93.

Just curious...how did your character survive going that fast?

Magic.

See, I agree that it's harder and harder to help them the more house rules they use, but I don't mind the usage of house rules in the first place. There's nothing magical about game designers. They're not automatically always right, and they don't know the players and GM of your game (using the generic "your" there), so they don't automatically know exactly what'll work best for you and your group. Game books are just pixels in a pdf or ink on paper, not sacred images carved in stone tablets from Moses, y'know? House rule to your heart's content, if that's what you and your buddies like.

But say so at the start of any conversation asking for help, advice, or opinions, for pete's sake. And understand that those house rules have moved your game away from the game anyone else is playing (which isn't innately bad, don't get me wrong!), which cuts down on the ability of other people to converse about your game in a meaningful manner, or make helpful comments, or give good advice. Because the one thing RAW has going for it is that everyone can read it, and be talking about the same thing, and be "on the same page," basically.

So if a game isn't using RAW, that's all well and good, and I hope folks are having a blast -- but it makes these sort of "ack, please help me, I need advice or opinions!" threads go crazy sometimes.

I don't have anything against house rules per se, in fact I'm working on an extensive houserule template that'll alter a lot of the SR game, but when you severely alter the rules of the game then you should expect problems. That was the intent of my post. I'm putting a lot of thought and work into my rules template to try and make sure it'll at least have a semblence of balance - this group, on the other hand, seems to have simply changed or altered things without pausing a moment to try and think about the reason those rules are there.

Heh. I always found Movement funny that way. It mentions allowing you to move that fast but nothing about the results of being able to move that fast(friction, control, slamming into brick walls....)

Thank you to all the folks who provided kind and constructive feedback for my original question and scenario. I think I got the information I needed to validate my interpretation of the Conceal power and also some great suggestions on how to balance the game when players are using it. I think it is this kind of generous and friendly attitude that makes the board so great.So, thank you very much for your good will and help.

It was really not my intention to turn this into a virtual trial of my gaming group and how we choose to play SR. It is unfortunate that the discussion veered out of the original scenario and question that I raised, as those were general questions and not directly tied to my particular game or adventure.

Finally, I'd like to point out that not using dodge for ranged attacks is actually an optional rule listed on the SR4A core book page 75, and not something we pulled out of our asses:

"Rather than handling all combat as an Opposed Test, you can handle
ranged combat as a success test with a threshold based on range (1 short,
2 medium, 3 Long, 4 extreme). some situational modifiers will affect
threshold rather than dice pool, such as blind fire, cover, etc."

With this I end my participation in this topic.

Except for the most part, it didn't veer off course, and that's. I'm not going to say the magic system isn't abusable(many things in SR are), but in a by-the-book campaign, so long as the GM understands the rules there are plenty of tools to deal with it.

You're campaign has a number of rules that encourage people to abuse the magic system, and a GM who doesn't fully understand the magic system and how to counter it, as evidenced by the houserules and the impact the magic system is making on the game. The problem isn't that concealment is broken, it is rather powerful yes, but I don't think any more broken that anything else spirits can do, and most people allow spirits in their game with little problems, the problem is that concealment is breaking your game.

camberiu:
Just a thought: The stealth bomber idea you had would have to fly relatively low. The higher you go, the less mana there is and the less powerful conceal becomes.

Theres also background counts to contend with.Wards and other astral barriers would work as well. A quickened astral barrier, for instance.

Side note: I don't think anyone is putting how you play the game on trial. But it can be frustrating when you ask for help and then shoot down our advice because it doesn't fit your houserules. Now that we know your houserules, I'm sure this discussion can be even more helpful assuming you are still willing to participate.

Please do tell which advice I shot down?

Well, no, actually, we can't. I mean, not for lack of trying, and there's nothing wrong with his house rules -- but they're responding in a way that makes sense, as players, given their circumstances.

1) The players are terrified of mundane combat, so will go to terrific lengths to avoid it.

2) Since there's no "electronics guy" on the team, they don't seem to be running into electronics-guy-work-to-do, or worrying about high-tech details (like how doors are made). So there's not a lot of electronics security to worry about, just guards with eyes (who, because of #1, they're desperate not to fight).

3) Spirits are great at helping you to avoid mundane guards-with-eyes security.
(a) High Force spirits are even better at it.
(b) Spirits don't spend Edge to resist being summoned, no matter what.

Add it all together? And yeah. Summoning a high Force spirit, in order to help with resisting guards-with-eyes security, kind of seems like the way to go. Mundane combat is terrifying, mundane security/electronics is a non-issue, so only two facets of the game really even remain; magic, and social skills. They're relying on magic, because they've kind of been funneled towards it -- and it sounds like the NPCs are relying on magic, too -- and they're both going right for the gusto with Force 6-12 spirits, because why not?

So it's a tough one to fix. Some of the players seem to feel it's not even broken, so I don't know if he's actually out to "fix" anything or not, to be honest.

Please see the original post.


1 - I never asked for help on house rules.

2 - I never asked for help on how my players are reacting to any house rule.

3 - I never said that anything on my game was broken.

I gave a few simple scenarios, all under the assumption of strict SR4A rules and asked for feedback. That is all. A few people were kind enough to give their input and even valuable suggestions. That was great. Thank you. Anything else is just beating a dead horse on something that should be a non-issue.

The title of the thread is "Concealment Power too powerful", you're first post talks about how you think the power breaks the game and uses an in game example. So far it's been express that a large part of why concealment is so powerful in your game is the way your game is run. If the game was run RAW with a more diverse party and the GM used effective magic counters, concealment would not be such a big problem.

You can't say that how the game is being run is irrelevant, because it's entirely relevant. If I use a house rule that says that gel rounds do 8S damage and ignore armor, and then complain about how gel rounds are overpowered, the forums would be right in mentioning that it's my rules making gel rounds overpowered, not gel rounds as per RAW.

Great... now that he knows of alternate ways around the Concealment power, there goes our "black trenchcoat", sneaking method. I better make sure I buy some hand held scanners to pick up pressure sensors & other stuff when we have to be all sneaky. I also better start a thread on advice on how to be a good covert ops person when you don't have the skills or toys...

I was wondering when you'd find a wooden door instead of a metal one myself. Let you guys have concealment.

On the internet, conversations sometimes do that. Relax. It's not that big a deal.

The internet... designed to allow simple comments/conversations to develop into full on wars over nothing... and porn.

Now I am wondering: what are you guys playing? Your table does not look like the most hospitable place for a sammy, and you have no technical skills. Is it a mage-only group?

I believe they said they have a street samurai, a "sport rifle adept," and a mage. I can't seem to find the post now that I'm looking for it, of course.

Out of respect to the GM, no more is to be said about our game. Allow me to say that it's been through many IRL & IG changes. Players who have come & gone. Characters who have done the same. It's current incarnation is slightly shifted towards 1 direction/theme.

I will say that with all the changes, it's been pretty fun. Sure, we've had headaches & such, but some also great memories. Sonic Ball-Tap. Greatest melee attack ever made... if there was such a thing as a critical success on a critical failure when meeting a Johnson, those 3 words describe it.

It is difficult to have a productive conversation when the goalposts representing the base background assumptions keep getting shifted.




-k

Sounds like a normal game to me, no reason to get defensive and almost reverent all of a sudden.

Honestly: What do you expect, if high force spirits do not use edge to resist summoning.
Every half a brain player is going for a mage.
At what point do you think a sam is able to take on a force 12 spirit?
If I was to build such a sam in BP I would guess around 800 to 1000 BP no limitation on cash and availability.

(If we would look at a human spirit, using his "spells without any sustaining modifier" and Edge you will be looking at 1500+ BP)

This is so far of the scope of any campaign, it can not work.

But in magic run, concealment is not a problem. Because a force 12 Spirit, still has 12 dice to spot you.

And of course the players are scared as hell of mundane combat. Everything able to deal with a force 12 spirit will instant kill any PC of less than 400 Karma.

(It is like using Karmagen letting a player start with an ally spirit and wonder why this force 12 ally spirt for cheap 96 Karma is kicking the shit out of your game...)
High force spirits are off the scope of SR. If you let those things in your game, the game starts to break apart.
I guess there hundreds of topics like this...

Wrong. It's easy to get a dicepool for firearms over 20 and SnS ammo chews spirits down. It's worse if you FA Narrow Burst them.

Hell, you can afford laser weapons on a 400 BP character, or flamethrowers, or sniper rifles with appropriate ammo, any of which will do substantial damage while laughing at the spirit's ItNW.

@Neraph
SnS needs 7 net hits against a force 12 spirit. ( 21 dice)
Not to mention you would need to hit it first. A reaction from 14 to 16 (core book) means you are looking at about 35 to 37 dice.
Thats quite beyond the scope of a starting char...

Yes, Flamethrowers and Laserweapon look a bit better (8P and 9P). But it will still take 4 net hits to scratch the spirit.
Sniper rifles are off the table anyway.
(The only way it would work is to insist, that the armor penetration mod would stick with the armor penetration mod of SnS. But than again it can be argued, that armor penetration does not apply to ITNW...)
The only weapon to hit a spirit of force 12 or higher is the Ares Gauss rifle.

But having the theoretical ability to hurt something, does not mean you are able to kill it.
How would it go?
Spirit flys on the astral.
Spirt finds the sam it likes to kill.
Spirits goes physical behind him. Now it is time for a surprise test, the spirit getting the +3 or even +6.
But it does not matter, because he is up to 26+X anyway.
So first action: Spirit hits the sam with natural weapon, inflicting 12+ hits damage(24+ dice translate in 8 damage) resulting in 20 damage.
(Or the poor spirit does not have any natural weapon but the energy aura instead. Making not much of a differance. Or is using elemental attack or whatever...
Having a water spirit with acid damge is quite evil, since the restriction for acid spells would not apply...)
Now it depends on how you handle ranged weapon in melee,if the sam survives.
Well, sure it will depend. But I guess if you try to get such a high dicepool for firearms, there is not left that much for armor.
But, well I guess it is somehow possible, but this won't help if the spirit is using an elemental attack or something like that.
Not to mention engulf.
And we are not even hitting on powers like fear and influance.

That's what the Guard power is for - just summon a spirit with both and at least two services.

In prevoius editions "movement" was described as the spirit makes traveling easier, moving obstacles out of the way etc. I always asked myself how this makes you walk with 200m/round.^^

I know I have said this before, but there are arguments being made here that have also been said before.

Magic has the potential to override other aspects of the game, if and only if the GM does not apply the constraints to magic built into the game, both in the explicit rules and in the 'fluff'.

As I understand it, the incident in question here was a 'do or die' situation. The PC figured he was dead if he didn't pull out all the stops, so he went for it. That's great. It makes for a good story over a few beers: "Remember when Flammo saved our asses with that mofo big spirit?"

But:

1) Use of Edge or not, repeated use of this level of magic will sooner or later kill the user. Russian roulette, anyone?

2) The world in many places is antithetical to magic use, either in its own intrinsic magical nature, or because of the existence of all kinds of technology. NPCs know this. The tougher the NPCs, the more they know it.

3) As per SR4A, page 192, "Magical skills and abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected
by them, which is detectable using assensing." So a force 12 spell or the summoning of a Force 12 spirit will leave a tell-tale signature for 12 hours, unless overtly erased. In a world in which magic over Force 3 is illegal for most people, this signature will draw the most lethal response available. No matter how tough your PC, someone/something in the world is tougher. Every time the spirit (the one whose signature links directly to the PC) does something magical, like Concealment, it leaves the same trace. "You want me to clean up after myself? That will be another service, sir."

And cleaning the signature up would take 12 complex actions. So, not to leave calling cards everywhere the PC goes, he is taking, not 1 complex action, but 13 to do one thing undetectably.

4) The list goes on....

I have seen in someone's signature in his DS posts a quote something like, "If a GM doesn't understand the hacking rules, hacking gets weaker. If a GM doesn't understand the magic rules, magic gets stronger." Perhaps a little black and white, but he does have a point. As a GM myself, I worry about work in the matrix, because I don't understand it (not having bothered to spend the time to figure it out), and welcome players' help when we go there. As a GM, I am not the least bit afraid of PCs with magic, and I don't have to go out of my way to gimp them. The world as written in the books already has it out for them.