Dual Weapon's and Smartgun Links Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Paul]

I'm sure this has been debated in great length, so feel free to point me in the right direction but in the 20th Anniversary Edtion on page 150 it says:

Two gun attacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.

Okay some of this I get. But the one thing I guess I'm not wrapping my head around is why does it negate the smartgun link bonus? Beyond game balance, that is?

[Yerameyahu]

I don't understand 'beyond game balance'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) There's a game, and the fluff is added to match. Presumably, it's something like 'you can't process both at once, not without a penalty that happens to cancel the bonus'. There are other penalties for distraction and sensory overload in the game.

[Draco18s]

Dual Weapon's

Cough.

Dual. Weapons. Plural. Not possessive.

http://www.apostropheabuse.com/

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, give credit for not saying 'duel weapons'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Anyway, I think you're going to be disappointed if your goal is to find a 'realistic' explanation. There's plenty of unrealism on both sides (things allowed and things disallowed).

[Paul]

Damn spell check. Maybe I should use it....(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

Damn spell check. Maybe I should use it....(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Spellcheck is no replacement for knowledge of the language.

...

And I'm totally a hypocrite for saying that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

Okay some of this I get. But the one thing I guess I'm not wrapping my head around is why does it negate the smartgun link bonus? Beyond game balance, that is?

But what if you got two smartgun systems (not the gun, but in the cybereyes)?

[JonathanC]

But what if you got two smartgun systems (not the gun, but in the cybereyes)?

Okay. A smartgun works by using a camera in the gun and feeding that info to your eyes (either via cybereyes or some kind of glasses/contact lenses). It takes both of your eyes to properly interpret the information from that camera, enabling your improved aim.

Now you want to add a second camera, giving both of your eyes two different sets of visual targeting information, that you still have to intepret at the SAME TIME, and you expect this to give you a BONUS?!

Frankly, I think it should give you a penalty for trying it. It'd be like watching two different television feeds superimposed over one another.

[Yerameyahu]

Total Aside: Why're you using cybereyes, though? That's what trodes are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

JonathanC, the problem is that you basically do that 24/7 in 2070. It's all direct brain goodness with *many* multiple sensory inputs, overlays, etc.

[Paul]

See this is some of where the disconnect is coming in for me. And I admit some of it's because I already have the bias in place of thinking of the smartlink in terms of "movies I've seen." But given the technology available, and the processing power that's out there...I guess I'm in for disappointment. I don't plan changing this rule at my table, but I do want to be able to coherently present why it's there when asked.

[JonathanC]

Total Aside: Why're you using cybereyes, though? That's what trodes are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

JonathanC, the problem is that you basically do that 24/7 in 2070. It's all direct brain goodness with *many* multiple sensory inputs, overlays, etc.

There's a difference between passively watching 3 video feeds out of the corner of your eye while you're reading a screamsheet, and having to make split-second life-or-death decisions based on those three different video feeds at the same time.

Dual-wielding smartlinks makes absolutely no sense. The human brain isn't designed to work that way, and there's nothing in Shadowrun suggesting that people in the Sixth World can do it either. I'd believe that a drone or AI could do it, but not a Metahuman.

[Yerameyahu]

See, you're just inventing fluff there. Excellent game designer-ship. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The fact is that, in combat, you're enjoying the effects of maybe 3 kinds of optics (which are overlays, just like the smartlink), plus the smartlink(s), plus a diverse TacNet overlay, plus group comms, etc., and none of that is typically judged to fall under the rules for AR distraction (-2, usually). Neither does any of it interfere with Perception tests (beyond the Distracted -2, which applies to essentially everything). That's no less 'split-second life-or-death' than a potentially calm, aimed 2-weapon smartlink shot.

It's purely about game balance, which is 100% fine.

[Paul]

I've always wondered if that's what the Math SPU and the Encephalon were for. Add in an orientation system....Ah 3E...

[Paul]

It's purely about game balance, which is 100% fine.

Which in the end will probably be my fall back answer.

[Yerameyahu]

The alternative, which is also acceptable, is to adjust the crunch to better match a 'reality' you're comfortable with. You can then make it more expensive, or reduce their effectiveness in tandem, or whatever else you want. Balance is something you can work at different ways.

[JonathanC]

See, you're just inventing fluff there. Excellent game designer-ship. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The fact is that, in combat, you're enjoying the effects of maybe 3 kinds of optics (which are overlays, just like the smartlink), plus the smartlink(s), plus a diverse TacNet overlay, plus group comms, etc., and none of that is typically judged to fall under the rules for AR distraction (-2, usually). Neither does any of it interfere with Perception tests (beyond the Distracted -2, which applies to essentially everything). That's no less 'split-second life-or-death' than a potentially calm, aimed 2-weapon smartlink shot.

It's purely about game balance, which is 100% fine.

I'm not looking for a fight here, but the info you're describing isn't the same as having two separate smartlink feeds.

The way human vision works, you can only focus on one point at a time. Everything else in your field of vision is peripheral. This means that you can't really read text outside of your field of vision that well, but you can detect movement, changes in color, etc. Some people with retinal detachment undergo therapy to make better use of their peripheral vision (it's all they have left), but for the average person it's completely useless.

Augmented reality feeds are like walking around with a series of rear-view mirrors. If you see something in a feed that catches your attention, you shift your focus. But you can't have two simultaneous visual focuses. You'd go crosseyed trying to, and your brain wouldn't be able to make proper sense of the data...this might be okay if you were watching security cams looking for movement, but if you were trying to target two different guys at once? Absolutely not. Aiming requires focus. This is why double-gunning in real life is laughed at by most (read: any I've ever talked to) combat veterans. Unless you're just trying to put a lot of bullets in the air for suppressive fire, you're not getting anywhere.

And that's double-gunning with a clear, single field of vision. Trying to do so with two disparate visual angles would be impossible for a human. The only way it would make sense in SR would be if you had two full cyberarms, cybereyes, and some kind of targeting computer (math SPU/Encephalon wouldn't cut it; Maybe a Pilot Program linked to your nervous system?)

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think you're correct. AR can be separate windows, but it can also be overlays; predominantly the latter, I think. The smartlink is described as nothing more than a laser dot in your head, a quite modest overlay pointing out where the computer estimates your bullet will land. I don't know why you think there are different visual angles, unless you think the typical use-case for smartguns is 'blind fire'. If we're talking about someone hiding behind a barrier and sticking just the two guns out, that's something different. It's more along the lines of using two *scopes* at once.

You lose the smartlink bonus even if you're attack the same exact spot with both, using your unified normal vision.

[JonathanC]

Smartlink gun cameras are canon, as far as I know, hence the separate windows.

[Zaranthan]

A Smartgun system DOES include a camera, but the bonus doesn't stem from having the video feed on your image link. The system calculates the trajectory of your shot, and projects THAT information to your vision. After all, the bonus applies to indirect fire weapons, having the camera feed wouldn't help you there.

[HunterHerne]

Smartlink gun cameras are canon, as far as I know, hence the separate windows.

Smartlink also has a visual display for your ammo count, so it's not just ballistic data.

I agree it shouldn't be allowed to be used at the same time. The only way to make use of both smartlinks would be to have complete multi-tasking capabilities, which is only possible in two ways in SR, neither of which is completely useful in combat (The observe in detail as a free is helpful, as is the removal of the minor distraction modifier; but the additional free actions can't be used)

[Miri]

An Adept with Ambidexterity, Kinesis (in addition to the unconscious control it has been described as always knowing exactly where your body is..) and Multitasking should, in my opinion, have enough physical and mental control to gain the bonuses of two smartgun linked weapons at once. My GM disagreed and I scrapped the dual pistol gun bunny Aadept concept I was working up.

[Critias]

You scrapped your whole character over two bonus dice?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You scrapped your whole character over two bonus dice?

Amazing, Isn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

Smartlink gun cameras are canon, as far as I know, hence the separate windows.

Witch don't really have anythink to do with the shooting bonus, that is just an AR overplay of targeting data(a reticule showing you the expected point of impact calculated by the software)
Actually if you wan't to get the smartlink bonus while targeting through the gun cam you need to add a smartlink visual enchament to that camera.

[JonathanC]

Witch don't really have anythink to do with the shooting bonus, that is just an AR overplay of targeting data(a reticule showing you the expected point of impact calculated by the software)
Actually if you wan't to get the smartlink bonus while targeting through the gun cam you need to add a smartlink visual enchament to that camera.

What are you talking about? The camera is part of the Smartlink enhancement to the gun, as far as I know.