I'm sure this has been debated in great length, so feel free to point me in the right direction but in the 20th Anniversary Edtion on page 150 it says:



Okay some of this I get. But the one thing I guess I'm not wrapping my head around is why does it negate the smartgun link bonus? Beyond game balance, that is?

I don't understand 'beyond game balance'. There's a game, and the fluff is added to match. Presumably, it's something like 'you can't process both at once, not without a penalty that happens to cancel the bonus'. There are other penalties for distraction and sensory overload in the game.

Cough.

Dual. Weapons. Plural. Not possessive.

http://www.apostropheabuse.com/

I mean, give credit for not saying 'duel weapons'.

Anyway, I think you're going to be disappointed if your goal is to find a 'realistic' explanation. There's plenty of unrealism on both sides (things allowed and things disallowed).

Damn spell check. Maybe I should use it....

Spellcheck is no replacement for knowledge of the language.

...

And I'm totally a hypocrite for saying that.

But what if you got two smartgun systems (not the gun, but in the cybereyes)?

Okay. A smartgun works by using a camera in the gun and feeding that info to your eyes (either via cybereyes or some kind of glasses/contact lenses). It takes both of your eyes to properly interpret the information from that camera, enabling your improved aim.

Now you want to add a second camera, giving both of your eyes two different sets of visual targeting information, that you still have to intepret at the SAME TIME, and you expect this to give you a BONUS?!

Frankly, I think it should give you a penalty for trying it. It'd be like watching two different television feeds superimposed over one another.

Total Aside: Why're you using cybereyes, though? That's what trodes are for.

JonathanC, the problem is that you basically do that 24/7 in 2070. It's all direct brain goodness with *many* multiple sensory inputs, overlays, etc.

See this is some of where the disconnect is coming in for me. And I admit some of it's because I already have the bias in place of thinking of the smartlink in terms of "movies I've seen." But given the technology available, and the processing power that's out there...I guess I'm in for disappointment. I don't plan changing this rule at my table, but I do want to be able to coherently present why it's there when asked.

There's a difference between passively watching 3 video feeds out of the corner of your eye while you're reading a screamsheet, and having to make split-second life-or-death decisions based on those three different video feeds at the same time.

Dual-wielding smartlinks makes absolutely no sense. The human brain isn't designed to work that way, and there's nothing in Shadowrun suggesting that people in the Sixth World can do it either. I'd believe that a drone or AI could do it, but not a Metahuman.

See, you're just inventing fluff there. Excellent game designer-ship. The fact is that, in combat, you're enjoying the effects of maybe 3 kinds of optics (which are overlays, just like the smartlink), plus the smartlink(s), plus a diverse TacNet overlay, plus group comms, etc., and none of that is typically judged to fall under the rules for AR distraction (-2, usually). Neither does any of it interfere with Perception tests (beyond the Distracted -2, which applies to essentially everything). That's no less 'split-second life-or-death' than a potentially calm, aimed 2-weapon smartlink shot.

It's purely about game balance, which is 100% fine.

I've always wondered if that's what the Math SPU and the Encephalon were for. Add in an orientation system....Ah 3E...

Which in the end will probably be my fall back answer.

The alternative, which is also acceptable, is to adjust the crunch to better match a 'reality' you're comfortable with. You can then make it more expensive, or reduce their effectiveness in tandem, or whatever else you want. Balance is something you can work at different ways.

I'm not looking for a fight here, but the info you're describing isn't the same as having two separate smartlink feeds.

The way human vision works, you can only focus on one point at a time. Everything else in your field of vision is peripheral. This means that you can't really read text outside of your field of vision that well, but you can detect movement, changes in color, etc. Some people with retinal detachment undergo therapy to make better use of their peripheral vision (it's all they have left), but for the average person it's completely useless.

Augmented reality feeds are like walking around with a series of rear-view mirrors. If you see something in a feed that catches your attention, you shift your focus. But you can't have two simultaneous visual focuses. You'd go crosseyed trying to, and your brain wouldn't be able to make proper sense of the data...this might be okay if you were watching security cams looking for movement, but if you were trying to target two different guys at once? Absolutely not. Aiming requires focus. This is why double-gunning in real life is laughed at by most (read: any I've ever talked to) combat veterans. Unless you're just trying to put a lot of bullets in the air for suppressive fire, you're not getting anywhere.

And that's double-gunning with a clear, single field of vision. Trying to do so with two disparate visual angles would be impossible for a human. The only way it would make sense in SR would be if you had two full cyberarms, cybereyes, and some kind of targeting computer (math SPU/Encephalon wouldn't cut it; Maybe a Pilot Program linked to your nervous system?)

I don't think you're correct. AR can be separate windows, but it can also be overlays; predominantly the latter, I think. The smartlink is described as nothing more than a laser dot in your head, a quite modest overlay pointing out where the computer estimates your bullet will land. I don't know why you think there are different visual angles, unless you think the typical use-case for smartguns is 'blind fire'. If we're talking about someone hiding behind a barrier and sticking just the two guns out, that's something different. It's more along the lines of using two *scopes* at once.

You lose the smartlink bonus even if you're attack the same exact spot with both, using your unified normal vision.

Smartlink gun cameras are canon, as far as I know, hence the separate windows.

A Smartgun system DOES include a camera, but the bonus doesn't stem from having the video feed on your image link. The system calculates the trajectory of your shot, and projects THAT information to your vision. After all, the bonus applies to indirect fire weapons, having the camera feed wouldn't help you there.

Smartlink also has a visual display for your ammo count, so it's not just ballistic data.

I agree it shouldn't be allowed to be used at the same time. The only way to make use of both smartlinks would be to have complete multi-tasking capabilities, which is only possible in two ways in SR, neither of which is completely useful in combat (The observe in detail as a free is helpful, as is the removal of the minor distraction modifier; but the additional free actions can't be used)

An Adept with Ambidexterity, Kinesis (in addition to the unconscious control it has been described as always knowing exactly where your body is..) and Multitasking should, in my opinion, have enough physical and mental control to gain the bonuses of two smartgun linked weapons at once. My GM disagreed and I scrapped the dual pistol gun bunny Aadept concept I was working up.

You scrapped your whole character over two bonus dice?

Amazing, Isn't it?

Witch don't really have anythink to do with the shooting bonus, that is just an AR overplay of targeting data(a reticule showing you the expected point of impact calculated by the software)
Actually if you wan't to get the smartlink bonus while targeting through the gun cam you need to add a smartlink visual enchament to that camera.

What are you talking about? The camera is part of the Smartlink enhancement to the gun, as far as I know.

Yes.. let us hold slavishly to the rules instead of working with the player to make the character he wants to make to help enjoy the GAME..

I want to make a character that hits people with trees.

500 pound trees.

Uprooted.

Fresh.

I can do that, yeah?

A Scottish Troll Cabertosser? Sounds interesting.

No one's saying you can't house rule it if you want to. They're just pointing out that the rule exists, that the rule is pretty clear, and sharing what we think to be the primary reasons for the rule (game balance).

It's worth pointing out that even in canon the rule's been broken -- Teachdaire, back in Prime Runners -- so there's a "canon" precedent that's been set for dual-smartlink-technology being possible. If you want to allow it for a PC, if you want to encourage a PC to tap their contacts and sink some money and Essence into a custom rig, if you want to just say by the mid 2070s every smartlink is capable of handling multiple weapons...that's perfectly okay. No one's gonna come to your house and demand your books and dice, or anything.

I demand that my mage be the only mage who can teleport. Also, I have infinity health. Also, I get 4 free successes on all skill rolls, and I am trained in all skills.



Let's not pretend like it's impossible to have fun within the boundaries of the rules. He's losing two dice on a firearms test; it's not the end of the world. Who the hell expects guns akimbo to be hyper-accurate anyway? This isn't Equilibrium: The Game.

Given how die pool splits work, it's actually scarily effective.

Then nobody should be complaining about the lack of smartlink bonuses.

Yes the smartlink package includes a camera, but the camera has nothing to do with the shooting bonus you get from smartlink.
Just as my last post said, what part of it are you having trouble understanding?

Well, no. They're free to complain if they want to. It's just that such complaints might not be terribly justified, in the opinion of the rest of us.

Oh hell, now you make me want to get two compact laser pointers for my airsoft Berettas to check how hard it really is!

Fluff-wise, at least as far as I understand it, it doesn't work while dual wielding because its incredibly disorienting to deal with two crosshairs at once.

If you want to get a bonus for using two smartlinks/guns at once, the best option you have is with a rating 1 Tacsoft. Smartgun systems come with a laser range finder and a camera, which provides the two necessary sensor channels. With two guns and yourself(assuming, oh, a simrig, or even cybereyes), you meet the minimum-participant requirement.
Its only a +1 bonus, but if you throw in an Optimization: Tactical AR soft hardware mod(its in unwired), you can bump that back up to a +2.

The system is roughly equivalent to a smartlink, but you can share it with your team if you like.

I dunno, Mäx, I thought I made the some point very clear myself. Better stop trying.

Just has to wait for him to enlighten us on what part he's not getting

The part where you don't understand how human vision works, I guess.

*shrug* Like I said.

I have a question that's related. If you have two guns with smartlinks but only fire one of them per simple action, does the smartlink bonus apply? My current character has a pair of Rugers that only fire in SS and he only fires them one at a time.

It's a driver conflict when you have two smartgun links going at the same time.

That's perfectly fine, crash2029.

Have you ever tried experimenting with this? I have. I took two laser pointers and tried toying around to see if I could keep them "locked" on two separate targets that were far enough away where I had to move my eyes to keep track of both of them, even if just a little. It was a chore under calm circumstances. Trying to do it with the adrenalin pumping, the targets moving, and... I don't even want to think about trying to do it then.

Sure, keeping them both on a single target is a lot easier, but it's still challenging especially if you're going for precision rather than, say, center mass.

Oh, sure. I'm all for the Additional Target Penalty being bigger, and it should penalize the primary as well (like D&D, hehe); -2/-4/etc.? Maybe more. I just don't agree that, in SR4, the smartlink should magically stop working altogether just because you're aiming two guns (potentially at the same exact point) based on a 'realistic distraction' argument.

What's the difference between "no bonus" and "a +2 bonus with a -2 penalty?"

Consistency, mostly. It also produces different results if you don't have a smartlink to begin with, which is harsh but probably appropriate. Again, I'm fine with it being (very) hard to aim two guns at *different* targets; that's only fair. And I'm no great fan of the 'omg, dual-wielding is cool' concept, personally. But it is a weird little glitch that the smartlink wouldn't work on the RAW-approved single target version. In that situation, I bet 2 smartlinks/laser sights would help a lot.

You bet? Based on what?

Obviously not an understanding of how human eyes work; or even actual experimentation, given that someone already stated that they tried this out and it didn't work. If you're shooting at an idiot who is standing perfectly still while you line up two separate guns on him, you shouldn't be getting smartlink bonuses anyway because at that point, it can't possibly be easier to hit him. In anything resembling a combat situation, it makes no sense to give the bonus, and the idea of negating the bonus with a penalty for "your brain doesn't work that way, moron" is just stupid. Piling on random bonuses and penalties slows down combat and ruins the experience in play because people spend forever looking up their goddamn bonuses.

Keep it sensible.

1. the smartgun system on a gun is a combination camera, range-finder, & mini-computer that feeds the sensors/mechanical systems on a gun. The system controls pieces of the gun & delivers data from the gun to whatever processor that interprets the info & displays it.

2. the smartgun system in eyes is what interprets the data from a smartgun & displays it on the eyes.

3. Using information from the eyes, the brain interprets that data & allows a person to "see" the image. The human brain requires 2 separate inputs & feeds in order to gauge distance. If someone only has 1 eye, they have great difficulty gauging distance do to the lack of a 2ndary reference perspective.

4. To shoot a gun, it takes more than pointing the gun at the target. Anticipation of wind & the bullet dropping & angle of the shot will require nuanced adjustments to hit a target. Especially if the target is far away.

So from it seems, the electronic hardware for smartguns is still limited by the human brain's need for 2 eyes, 2 separate perspective/references, & if you have 2 feeds coming in from 2 cameras, for 2 separate, independent guns... it causes issues. Like rubbing your tummy with 1 hand & patting your head with the other. Some folks can do it, some cannot. Either case... separation of brain, eyes, & muscles is complicated.

All in all though... I think it's probably a game balance issue.

I bet, based on nothing. Sue me, or show my your peer-reviewed evidence. I think you'll find he [Ol' Scratch] didn't say he tried *this*. He performed a distinct task, one which I specifically mentioned: multiple targets. He then compared to the single target case, and called it 'easier but challenging'. I'm going to give that a soft rating, personally.

In fact, it *can* be easier to hit a stationary target in the open. That's why there's a dice pool.

Given that we're already using the smartgun in *all* other cases, and the multiple-target penalties are independent, I think you'll find that my proposal is actually less time 'looking up bonuses'.

Anyway, you seem pretty agitated about this, though I appreciate that you're taking it out on the hypothetical targets.

--
See, Saint Hallow, I'm just not feeling it. All we're talking about is a dot on things you're seeing. There's no mucking around with your natural binocular vision at all; there is only ever *one* feed (caveat: see earlier post). The smartgun is handling all the physics already, so it's not that, either. You're getting a +2 bonus for having a calculated dot seamlessly integrated into your vision. The laser sight gives a +1 in a nearly identical way, except without the handy calculations. Either way, the dot helps you aim. Having two dots does not *hurt* your aiming ability, and there's already a separate penalty for trying to aim at multiple targets. Dots can only help with that (difficult) task, and dots can only help with the much simpler task of aiming two guns at one target.