multiple ally spirits Options

[Boomer1985]

Can you summon for your self more than one ally spirit. I don't remember readding anything that would say i couldn't.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Very, Very Karma Intensive...

[SpellBinder]

Ver, Very Karma Intensive...

QFT

Especially at a base cost of Force × 8 in karma to the summoning magician/mystic. But yeah, I don't recall reading anything saying that you're limited to one.

[BishopMcQ]

I'd say that like Foci, you can only get the benefit from one Ally spirit at a time for things like Aid Sorcery. Otherwise, having multiple Allies is fine.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'd say that like Foci, you can only get the benefit from one Ally spirit at a time for things like Aid Sorcery. Otherwise, having multiple Allies is fine.

Indeed... But Ally Spirits can be greatly useful. Ditto for multiple Allies... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Ritual Sorcery Comes to mind... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Boomer1985]

Cool that's what I thouht

But doesn't it say that ally spirits don't count against the limit of one spirit aideing for aide sorcery

But it could also depend on the gm (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Ha! Technically, everything could depend on the GM. He could let you shoot lightning from your eyes, but it wouldn't be the normal rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neraph]

Ver, Very Karma Intensive...

I believe the term is "prohibitively expensive."

Cool that's what I thouht

But doesn't it say that ally spirits don't count against the limit of one spirit aideing for aide sorcery

Are Ally Spirits spirits? If so then they count against the limit of one spirit using Aid Sorcery. Check Aid Sorcery and Aid Study, page 105, Street Magic. They count for Aid Sorcery but not Aid Study.

[Boomer1985]

I believe the term is "prohibitively expensive."


Are Ally Spirits spirits? If so then they count against the limit of one spirit using Aid Sorcery. Check Aid Sorcery and Aid Study, page 105, Street Magic. They count for Aid Sorcery but not Aid Study.

But when you read about ally spirits they modify that rule to say that the ally itself does not count toward that limit

[pbangarth]

But when you read about ally spirits they modify that rule to say that the ally itself does not count toward that limit

Wow. I just read over that section about spirit services in SR4A, and while the limit of one is specified for Aid Study, it isn't for Aid Sorcery. Does that mean more than one spirit can Aid the casting of a single spell?

[Tanegar]

Wow. I just read over that section about spirit services in SR4A, and while the limit of one is specified for Aid Study, it isn't for Aid Sorcery. Does that mean more than one spirit can Aid the casting of a single spell?

Possibly, if the GM is an idiot or a pushover.

[Neraph]

But when you read about ally spirits they modify that rule to say that the ally itself does not count toward that limit

An ally spirit may use Aid Sorcery and Aid Study (see p. 178, SR4) exactly as if it were a normal bound spirit. An ally spirit is considered to be appropriate for every spell category for this purpose, and does not count against the limit of one bound spirit aiding in the learning of a spell.

Underlined the part about not counting, and bolded the pertinent specification. Like I said above, they do not count against the limit for Aid Study only.

Wow. I just read over that section about spirit services in SR4A, and while the limit of one is specified for Aid Study, it isn't for Aid Sorcery. Does that mean more than one spirit can Aid the casting of a single spell?

Possibly, if the GM is an idiot or a pushover.

Do you allow multiple rounds from a BF/FA gun to increase damage? How about overlapping or confined explosions? This is just magic's version. Also note that it costs a service from a bound spirit, the spirit must be a same type, and the spirit's Force must equal or exceed the Force of the desired spell. I don't see how allowing this is a sign of an idiot or pushover - if a player really wants to burn through services and nuyen that fast, let them. Remember that it's only a dicepool bonus, not a Force increase or anything, and that successes are still limited by the Force of the spell. All of this together makes this little more than a novelty.

[The Jopp]

Magician Magic 6
Lower that to 4
Train up X2 Ally spirits F4
Forms:
Cute Female Human
Invisible Human
Skills:
Pistol
Dodge
Spellcasting

Now you give them Formfitting Body Armor and Secure Longcoats and a Heavy pistol

8 points of hardened armor and also regular armor.

1 mage almost became a runner team by himself

[Yerameyahu]

Not a *good* runner team, of course… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) 'Invisible' is a form? Gotta love how a fluff decision lets your spirits wear armor and wield pistols.

[Neraph]

Not a *good* runner team, of course… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) 'Invisible' is a form? Gotta love how a fluff decision lets your spirits wear armor and wield pistols.

Allowable by FAQ also.

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't say it wasn't allowed. I implied that it's moronic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[toturi]

I didn't say it wasn't allowed. I implied that it's moronic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If it is effective and by RAW, then the moron is the person not using it or allowing its use.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh man, your point is totally right! Unless, for example, you don't want vehicles vulnerable to poisons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Not everything in the RAW is good or correct. Everyone agrees with this, or there wouldn't be house rules.

Even if you wanted spirits to have those abilities, it's sloppy to have zero crunch for it.

[toturi]

Not everything in the RAW is good or correct. Everyone agrees with this, or there wouldn't be house rules.

Everything in the RAW is correct. Everyone agrees with this, otherwise house rules would be wrong.

[Yerameyahu]

That doesn't even pretend to make sense. What's the sound of one tree clapping in the woods with no one around? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If the game is meant to have a functional distinction between various spirit forms, then there have to be rules for them. Animal shapes, human shapes, 12-armed flying invisible things, microscopic ones? … can't be left up to imagination-power, because all spirits have the same basic abilities in the rules. Summoning Chlorine or Titanium Elementals isn't clever, it's abuse.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not a *good* runner team, of course… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) 'Invisible' is a form? Gotta love how a fluff decision lets your spirits wear armor and wield pistols.

Well, it is hard to argue that at least SOME spirtits can't utilize Equipment. As for Ally Spirits, I don't generally have an issue with them using Equipment, assuming they have an appropriate Form and Skill...*shrug*

Not that we have an abundance of Ally Spirits in Game (I think 2 over the course of about 6 years).

[Yerameyahu]

I'm saying there would ideally be crunch for crunch effects like that. Initially, I was just making an offhand comment about this funny situation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Then someone randomly insulted me and made the ludicrous claim that the RAW is perfect, so I explained the principle.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm saying there would ideally be crunch for crunch effects like that. Initially, I was just making an offhand comment about this funny situation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Then someone randomly insulted me and made the ludicrous claim that the RAW is perfect, so I explained the principle.

No worries. I get it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still think that the Spirit Ruls are purposefully left vague so as to facilitate the Individual Traditions that the spirits can be associated with. The Fire spirit of Hermetic is FAR different than the Elemental Fire Spirit of the Wuxing Traditionalist or the Demonic Entity of a Black Magician following Adversary. On paper they are the same, but by Tradition/Mentor interaction, they are very different entities.

Does this force a level of responsibility on both the Player and GM to protray the Traditions as Different, rather than cloned copies with different spirits and Drain Stats? Of course. I think this is a Good thing, though. If the portrayal of Hermeticism and Black Magicians are not different, then why have them as different Traditions?

[Yerameyahu]

As far as the rules are concerned, those differences aren't supposed to extend to things like invisibility, the (in)ability to use armor and weapons, or something like size (e.g., for Perception or targeting). I'm fine with those crunch factors existing, but something like that goes in the rules. It's the equivalent of the game saying that all pistols have the same stats… but players can use their imagination to give them more DV, AP, mag size, etc.

[pbangarth]

I can see the Invisibility being a bone of contention, but am I missing something about Skills and form? Ally Spirits are allowed to be given Skills the Conjuror has, so they could have Skills such as Pistol, along with Skills available to spirits of their type, and they can have a humanoid form to which armour can be fitted.