Can you summon for your self more than one ally spirit. I don't remember readding anything that would say i couldn't.

Very, Very Karma Intensive...

QFT

Especially at a base cost of Force × 8 in karma to the summoning magician/mystic. But yeah, I don't recall reading anything saying that you're limited to one.

I'd say that like Foci, you can only get the benefit from one Ally spirit at a time for things like Aid Sorcery. Otherwise, having multiple Allies is fine.

Indeed... But Ally Spirits can be greatly useful. Ditto for multiple Allies...
Ritual Sorcery Comes to mind...

Cool that's what I thouht

But doesn't it say that ally spirits don't count against the limit of one spirit aideing for aide sorcery

But it could also depend on the gm

Ha! Technically, everything could depend on the GM. He could let you shoot lightning from your eyes, but it wouldn't be the normal rules.

I believe the term is "prohibitively expensive."


Are Ally Spirits spirits? If so then they count against the limit of one spirit using Aid Sorcery. Check Aid Sorcery and Aid Study, page 105, Street Magic. They count for Aid Sorcery but not Aid Study.

But when you read about ally spirits they modify that rule to say that the ally itself does not count toward that limit

Wow. I just read over that section about spirit services in SR4A, and while the limit of one is specified for Aid Study, it isn't for Aid Sorcery. Does that mean more than one spirit can Aid the casting of a single spell?

Possibly, if the GM is an idiot or a pushover.

Underlined the part about not counting, and bolded the pertinent specification. Like I said above, they do not count against the limit for Aid Study only.




Do you allow multiple rounds from a BF/FA gun to increase damage? How about overlapping or confined explosions? This is just magic's version. Also note that it costs a service from a bound spirit, the spirit must be a same type, and the spirit's Force must equal or exceed the Force of the desired spell. I don't see how allowing this is a sign of an idiot or pushover - if a player really wants to burn through services and nuyen that fast, let them. Remember that it's only a dicepool bonus, not a Force increase or anything, and that successes are still limited by the Force of the spell. All of this together makes this little more than a novelty.

Magician Magic 6
Lower that to 4
Train up X2 Ally spirits F4
Forms:
Cute Female Human
Invisible Human
Skills:
Pistol
Dodge
Spellcasting

Now you give them Formfitting Body Armor and Secure Longcoats and a Heavy pistol

8 points of hardened armor and also regular armor.

1 mage almost became a runner team by himself

Not a *good* runner team, of course… 'Invisible' is a form? Gotta love how a fluff decision lets your spirits wear armor and wield pistols.

Allowable by FAQ also.

I didn't say it wasn't allowed. I implied that it's moronic.

If it is effective and by RAW, then the moron is the person not using it or allowing its use.

Oh man, your point is totally right! Unless, for example, you don't want vehicles vulnerable to poisons. Not everything in the RAW is good or correct. Everyone agrees with this, or there wouldn't be house rules.

Even if you wanted spirits to have those abilities, it's sloppy to have zero crunch for it.

Everything in the RAW is correct. Everyone agrees with this, otherwise house rules would be wrong.

That doesn't even pretend to make sense. What's the sound of one tree clapping in the woods with no one around?

If the game is meant to have a functional distinction between various spirit forms, then there have to be rules for them. Animal shapes, human shapes, 12-armed flying invisible things, microscopic ones? … can't be left up to imagination-power, because all spirits have the same basic abilities in the rules. Summoning Chlorine or Titanium Elementals isn't clever, it's abuse.

Well, it is hard to argue that at least SOME spirtits can't utilize Equipment. As for Ally Spirits, I don't generally have an issue with them using Equipment, assuming they have an appropriate Form and Skill...*shrug*

Not that we have an abundance of Ally Spirits in Game (I think 2 over the course of about 6 years).

I'm saying there would ideally be crunch for crunch effects like that. Initially, I was just making an offhand comment about this funny situation. Then someone randomly insulted me and made the ludicrous claim that the RAW is perfect, so I explained the principle.

No worries. I get it.

I still think that the Spirit Ruls are purposefully left vague so as to facilitate the Individual Traditions that the spirits can be associated with. The Fire spirit of Hermetic is FAR different than the Elemental Fire Spirit of the Wuxing Traditionalist or the Demonic Entity of a Black Magician following Adversary. On paper they are the same, but by Tradition/Mentor interaction, they are very different entities.

Does this force a level of responsibility on both the Player and GM to protray the Traditions as Different, rather than cloned copies with different spirits and Drain Stats? Of course. I think this is a Good thing, though. If the portrayal of Hermeticism and Black Magicians are not different, then why have them as different Traditions?

As far as the rules are concerned, those differences aren't supposed to extend to things like invisibility, the (in)ability to use armor and weapons, or something like size (e.g., for Perception or targeting). I'm fine with those crunch factors existing, but something like that goes in the rules. It's the equivalent of the game saying that all pistols have the same stats… but players can use their imagination to give them more DV, AP, mag size, etc.

I can see the Invisibility being a bone of contention, but am I missing something about Skills and form? Ally Spirits are allowed to be given Skills the Conjuror has, so they could have Skills such as Pistol, along with Skills available to spirits of their type, and they can have a humanoid form to which armour can be fitted.

Very True... I see what you are saying now... and I agree with it 100%.
Thanks for the clarification...

Ah, but mine also has extra telescoping arms in case I want to wield 10 pistols, or take things off the top shelf without a ladder. Why not, it's all free?

But TJ's also right: the GM is there to stop things like this when it's not appropriate. I just like for everything to be clear ahead of time, so the GM doesn't have to make more decisions and then inform the players about them. Ideally, they can read the book and know what's (im)possible.

I agree that extreme examples should be stopped but there are things to think about when using humanoid forms.

-An invisible human form wearing armor defeats the purpose - its no different than using a spirit on the astral plane that pops out.
I do think that one would use the invisbility spell rules against such a specific form - not to mention that the players cannot see said spirit either and it might get in the way of fire. Otherwise you could just say its a human clear/ice shape in the case of water elemental or river spirit.

-Spirits wearing clothes is perfectly allright if the spirit form is fitting with the tradition or perhaps hermetic mages conjuring up a fire elemental ally spirit who is a woman with fiery hair. A dog shaman summoning a human ally spirit feels...wrong.

Also, an ally can only learn what the caster/summoner knows so unless they have extensive firearm skills they would most likely be limited by pistols. Not to mention the fact that either a pair of F4 ally spirits or all that karma to be a whoopass mage - If i was the GM i would have more fun with character development of said ally spirits...

"what do you mean one of my spirits are jealous of the other one because I give it more attention..."

No, I don't think there's much abuse potential for multiple ally spirits, agreed. I was just, and only in passing, pointing out the vague rules for crunch effects like 'can wear armor'. And invisible is just ridiculous, in or out of armor. It's very different from the Materializing that all spirits can do.

As matter of fact, the form of the spirit has no influance on his stats.



In redard to the aid sorrcery question:
Yeah, that is a nasty one. The problem here is, that it can get out of hand fast. (But here you have to use the rule, giving a comulative -2 modifier per spirit present)

In general you need a lot of spellcasting dice, to later on crack the counterspelling.
Counterspelling beeing Willpower (easy up to 9 or even 12), Skill (6 to 9)+spec, Mentorspirit, Adeptpower, Initiation grade, helping spirits...
But just adding spirits*Force dice is to much here, too. (Two spirits force 5->10 dice->3 hits)
So the rule limiting the max. Dicepool to (Skill+attribute)*2 is reasonable.
And even with this rule, you should be thinking about limiting it to 1 "normal"spirit and only allow additional ally spirits or free spirits...

Right, Irion, and that's as it should be. However, does that imply that any spirit can pick up an actual weapon, regardless of its form? I'd say yes: everything should have the same basic abilities. What about wearing armor? How many things can it 'pick up', and using what appendages? And of course, invisibility, size, etc. As long as we're just talking about 100% aesthetic stuff with zero crunch effects, it's all fine.

Excuse me for believing in the principle that RAW is/should be perfect.

Meh... I'm on the fence when it comes to armoring spirits. I don't see why not... but at the same time could see why others would object. From a GM's perspective... I'd probably try and find some middle ground of having to design some custom armor specific to the ally's form using both arcana and armorer skills.

There'd still be the issue that they'd have to put the things on. Though then again, given that these are ally spirits with spellcasting ability. The same ends can be attained through the use of 'innate spell' power. (spirit can sustain a number of critter powers including innate spell equal to force without penalty). So at that point, rather than armor... you could load him up with 'combat sense', 'deflection', armor spell... even combat reflexes and increase reaction as innate spells. Still the issue of spelling up... and drain... after they materialize for the non-mana ones... but a bit more fitting.

Then again... right now I'm researching a second force 7 ally to use as a lab rat... (arcana and enchanting). I know already my first pick in new spell design will get shot down ('turn to goo', no, 'statue'... no 'turn to c4' YES :)). (hey chummer how much you think that troll weighs? about how much blast when it goes off).

toturi, it's just inexcusable; there's a huge difference between 'is' and 'should be', and you said 'is'.

Yeah, Falconer, it's not the possibility that's the problem. It's just crunch effects being ruled by variable fluff that's an issue.

However, there are these options for a caniform spirit:

LINK

Which got me thinking - Arent there rules for animal armors?

I can see a potential problem with escalating firepower if people start armoring their spirits but it could give weaker spirits a way of surviving (stopping a rating 3-4 spirit is not very difficult).

We already have the problem that either a spirit is easy to kill or almost impossible to kill due to how the ForceX2=Hardened Armor so giving spirits some extra armor and allowing them to shoot back isnt too bad - I guess it also depends on the kind of game you are playing in the end.

I can definitely see a GM banning the use of a F8 Blood Spirit in heavy military grade armor armed with a panther assault cannon.

When I speak of the RAW, there is no difference between the two. "Is" is "should be" and "should be" is "is", because they must be.

cocaine's a helluva drug

Well, they ARE ally spirits unlike regular spirits so they would be rather rare AND have abilities not normally found in regular spirits.

For sheer game balance I would have no problem with a human form ally spirit wearing armor but invisible would be another issue...

And then it decides to wear a chameleon suit.

Well, for one I will support this idea because :

RAW is the only referential that define the SR world and the way it is simulated so RAW is basically by itself, innerently(splg) perfect.

Now, is RAW balanced or does RAW make sense is an entirely different question.

toturi, that one was even more koan-like that the last one. Are you going to start making sense, or are you just teasing? I know the answer, but I ask out of politeness.

IKerensky, that's not what 'perfect' means. You can certainly say, 'the RAW is the RAW', but that's meaningless. We're specifically talking about issues of balanced/makes sense here.

RAW is not perfect and the odds of it being perfect probably most closely fit a logarithmic curve. It will approach 1 but it will never reach it. You can continually put effort into creating RAW but eventually the cost/benefit ratio will reach a point that it's not worth the time spent achieving it. Plus a perfect RAW would likely require the publisher to develop a new method of binding....

The only word needed to describe RAW is authoritative.

If you know the answer, then politeness compels me to congratulate you on gaining a glimmer of wisdom.

I really need to stop reading all those L5R stories so much.

L5R for the Win...

Ha! I meant I know the answer to *my* question ('Are you going to start making sense…').

That's what he was referring to.

Can't be, because I always knew that one. It's not like blind devotion to the broken RAW is a new thing.