Hacking Cyberware, Wargarbbbbbbl RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE Options

[Neurosis]

I have never done this before, but there is a first time for everything. Someone is wrong on the internet nerd rage GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I have a terrible confession to make. I was one of the writers of Shadowrun 5th Edition. Actually, that in and of itself isn't the terrible confession, but I can see why you'd think so with some of the incendiary threads floating around here. The terrible confession is...I'm not sure I like SR5 all that much. I'm not sure I'd want to play it over SR4. Which is doubly fucked because I wrote the first full length adventure for SR5, I've been thinking about/working on SR5 since like 2011, my career progress/job security depends on working on sourcebooks and supplements for SR5, I get paychecks from a company whose revenue stream comes from selling SR5, and so on. But still, nothing about being a Catalyst Freelancer requires me to blindly champion SR5 or sing its praises; I can't lie about the fact that I have serious issues about SR5. I can't get into what those issues are, because that gets way too much into "how the sausage is made" and even now that the book is out, would probably violate NDA.

But one of the most common complaints I've seen people make about SR5, one of the things that some people are up in arms about, is just so overwhelmingly stupid that I can't remain silent about it. There are plenty of at least subjectively valid reasons to dislike SR5...I doubt even any one of the people who wrote it was 100% satisfied with the game, such is the nature of collaborative process...but complaining about the fact that cyberware can be hacked is completely idiotic. And I can address that without even cracking open an SR5 rulebook and getting into the nitty gritty rules on just how goddamn difficult and expensive it is for a decker to even attempt to hack someone's wireless enable cyberware (spoiler: it's way too expensive, and really goddamn hard).

First, before I go any further, I want you all to watch this video. Then, when I'm done making all my counter-arguments to common complaints I've seen, go back and watch this video again. Don't worry, it's under a minute.

SORRY PAL

Gut-check time. Was that...

A) SUPER FREAKING AWESOMSE!
B) Awesome
C) Pretty Cool
D) Laaaaaaaaaaaaame. (If you select this option, get off the internet, you can't be reasoned with.)

You see the primary reason I am baffled by the hue and cry about hacking cyberware is that HACKING CYBERWARE IS FUCKING COOL. It lets your PCs do what Batou just did to that Umibozu commando. And that's fucking awesome. It gives "Combat Hackers" something to hack during combat! Here are the secondary reasons that complaining about cyberware being hackable is stupid. And yes, as the list goes on, liberal use is made of Straw Man arguments (deal; these straw men are based on actual things actual people have actually said).

1) This is not a new thing. Cyberware was hackable in 4th Edition.

Ok....deep breath. Yes, you could switch your cyberware to DNI only, and skinlink everything, and effectively, in Frank Trollman terminology, "set hacking to off". But in casual, non-Missions play, not everyone did this. At my table, we certainly didn't do this. At my table, PCs could hack NPCs, NPCs could hack PCs, and the world went on. Hacking someone's gear was just another avenue of attack and another avenue to defend, like guns and magic. The SR4(A) rules don't explicitly state that cyberware can or cannot be hacked; there are certainly no "wireless bonuses", but I went with the default assumption that yes, Cyberware is a Device, has a Device Rating like anything else, and I could see plenty of in-universe reasons why it should be "always on". Hell, look at the XBone, and that's just a generation away from happening for real, let alone 2075. Think about how often your phone or your XBox or your computer's software needs to install updates. Almost daily, right? Cyberware is the same way, and needs to install firmware packages to stay current and stay relevant; the easiest solution to keeping the firmware up to date would be having it "always online". The security considerations of that are secondary...because no one is supposed to have the tools/talent to be able to hack cyberware anyway!

At my table, you could totally have something like what happened in that video occur in actual play.

That was the rational in my SR4 game. And outside of SR Missions...I am pretty sure that some other people were already running SR4 games where hacking cyberware as a thing you could do!

2) "Wahhhhhhhhhhhh! Hacking cyberware is not realistic! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" SHUT UP!

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a time traveling computer science major FROM THE FUTURE.

In that case, elves dragons wizards vampires bug spirits and shape-changing fox people would like to have A FUCKING WORD WITH YOU about "REALISM".

2) "Wahhhhhhhhh! Corporations wouldn't make and sell cyberware that could potentially be hacked! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" SHUT UP!

This is such a ridiculous and laughable argument it makes me seethe with rage. Because phone companies wouldn't make and sell smartphones that could be cracked, right? Because game companies wouldn't make and sell PS3s that could be cracked, hacked, and 'sploited, right? Because corporations are made of people that are infallible and never make mistakes, right? Because megacorporations--especially in Shadowrun--care WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY more about the safety and security of their customers than the bottom line and making a quick buck? Oh, oh wait...oh yeah.

NONE OF THAT IS TRUE.

Megacorporations don't give a SHIT about the safety and security of their customers. You'll buy it because it's like the last one, only better. Then when shit does get hacks'd, they'll spin things to make them look like big damn heroes for trying to catch the hackers/closing the loophole.

And don't forget they make the 'warez and tools that are used for hacking shit...and for anti-hacking defense. So...cha-ching!

3) "Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! No one would ever install cyberware that could be hacked! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" SHUT UP!

What. The. Fuck. This. Is. Shadowrun. Have you READ Shadowrun, at all? Have you read ANY of the classic SR Novels, at all? They tell the story of street criminals who are responsible members of society that never do anything short-sighted for a quick boost in power that they might one day come to regre---oh, oh wait.

Yeah, that's right, I remember now. In the Shadowrun fiction, people install Cyberware even though it GIVES THEM FUCKING CANCER. People install wired reflexes even though it gradually breaks down over time and stops working and gives them EPILEPSY FOR LIFE! Why? Because they WANT TO BE FASTER, AND DAMN THE CONSEQUENCES. The fact that someone some day might haxor it PALES in comparison to the fact that it could riddle your body with tumors or leave you a helpless twitching mass of SEIZURES, and those things literally don't stop people from installing all the cyberware they can afford.

4) "Wahhhh! Wahhhh! I JUST DON'T LIKE cyberware being hacked! It's icky! Wahhhhh!"

SHUT UP! WATCH THE VIDEO AGAIN!

And I'm done.

*drops mike, feedback squeals, lurches drunkenly off stage and back into obscurity*

[quentra]

Hey buddy, I think a lot of people agree with you. Hacking cyberware is cool, is pretty fucking cyberpunk, and has a place in Shadowrun. We just have issues with the implementation, is all. Also, thanks for you honesty - it's nice to see an opposing viewpoint from someone who actually worked on the damn thing.

[Mach_Ten]

I like you. You're funneh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kruger]

TL:DR

That, and you'd said some patently stupid and entirely subjective stuff before you'd even finished paragraph two. Besides, we didn't want to play Ghost in the Shell, we wanted to play Shadowrun.

[Sengir]

So, you made a threat to regurgitate the "batons extend faster with Facebook access, because dragons" argument once more, and to declare that Neo hacking is cool because you say so. Seriously?

[Mach_Ten]

So, you made a threat to regurgitate the "batons extend faster with Facebook access, because dragons" argument once more, and to declare that Neo hacking is cool because you say so. Seriously?

But he had a cool 'tude and a video.... no one else used video yet.

[quentra]

TL:DR

That, and you'd said some patently stupid and entirely subjective stuff before you'd even finished paragraph two. Besides, we didn't want to play Ghost in the Shell, we wanted to play Shadowrun.

I've run GitS-style games in Shadowrun. Players were literally agents of GOD (and had their own corporate agendas, infighting, while also combating 'terrorists', aka shadowrunners.) Saying you want to play Shadowrun instead of GitS makes no sense, because if you're playing Shadowrun, you're playing Shadowrun. Now, if there are certain elements of GitS cyberpunk you dislike and don't want in your Shadowrun, that's one thing. But the way you phrased it is pretty much nonsense. Hell, without any real fluff modifications, you can even fucking run Section 11 in the SR setting.

[Sendaz]

Batou DOES make everything better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Daedelus]

So, you made a threat to regurgitate the "batons extend faster with Facebook access, because dragons" argument once more, and to declare that Neo hacking is cool because you say so. Seriously?

And they are still no less valid that your arguments. Please point out to me Specific arguments against it that are not a. Opinion based (non-concrete), or b. Speculative (trying to predict future technology).
It all comes down to a Simulationist vs. Gamist perspective difference. The answer is the same either way. Play with the rules or house rule them out. There are a lot of us here that like the rules as well, so please don't dismiss us out of hand. Our opinions are just as valid as yours.
If you got your way and they were removed then those of us who like them have lost an aspect that we FEEL was missing from the immersive nature of Shadowrun. If they remain, and you don't use them (house ruled out, or simply turn the wireless off and not take the benefit), then we all win. You don't ever have to look at them again, and we get our needs met. How is that a bad thing?

[Sunshine]

I like you. You're funneh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think this is funneh, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

This "discussion" isn't one since about 500 Posts, so this will just lead to this.

[Jonny Reload]

Wow this is a really awkward thread... I'm pretty sure right now Catalyst is starting to rethink their hiring practices on Freelancers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Unless the original thread poster is just doing an "Inception" level of trolling right now pretending to be one of the people who worked on SR5... Then I tip my hat to you for being teh funneh!)

[Tashiro]

TL:DR

That, and you'd said some patently stupid and entirely subjective stuff before you'd even finished paragraph two. Besides, we didn't want to play Ghost in the Shell, we wanted to play Shadowrun.

Actually, I want to play Ghost in the Shell with magic and elves and dragons. YMMV.
He has some very sound arguments. This is stuff that's in the world, right now, and makes sense in the near future. This suits everything that a megacorporation would do, or that runners would do. And, Batou is cool, but the Major is god. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[bannockburn]

Very bad form, Devon.

[nezumi]

I am a computer science major from the future (just not from your future. Some other, past-guy's future.)

Hacking cyberware is perfectly reasonable. Right now people are finding that hacking pacemakers is a problem:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/singularity/20...al-devices-too/

If you have a device in you, the easiest way for it to get necessary updates, tuning, and monitoring is via a wireless connection. Security non-withstanding, a wireless pacemaker/arm/eye/whatever will likely have more and better functionality than a non-wireless one. And since most consumers want most functionality at least cost, they'll buy wireless. And by its nature, wireless will ALWAYS be less secure than wired.

The exception here is security/professional grade stuff. A cop does not need his car to have an mp3 player or tell him the temperature outside, so the police department is not likely to spring for that sort of functionality. The military certainly isn't going to install a wireless functionality on something that can be wired-only. Police departments may buy wireless-enabled consumer gear because of price constraints, but they're most likely going to turn off the wireless functionality unless there's a definite advantage worth that trade-off. Paramilitary and military units should never let price considerations get ahead of safety (not saying it doesn't happen, but it's the exception).

Shadowrunners generally fall into that paramilitary/military category, competing against paramilitary/military competition. So for 90% of what they do, wireless cyberware hacking should be impossible. For that remaining 10%, it should be so ridiculously hard as to be impractical, except for very specific gambits.

That video was cool, but so are videos of people jumping their motorcycles up a ramp so high that they turn into a spaceship and blow up a thousand nazis. That doesn't mean it's fun to play, or makes sense in a seting.

[Draco18s]

I had to null vote because the choices are loaded.

You also used:

Black-and-White
No True Scotsman
Strawman

Good day, sir.

In any case, you didn't address my problem with it:

Having your cyberware hacked is not fun. It is the D&D equivalent of constantly hitting the fighter with Mind Control spells after hitting the mage with Disintegrate.

[Sendaz]

so this will just lead to this.

Awesome video (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As for the hacking, a lot of people are concerned by what they see as the relative ease of being hacked, especially potentially via items that they don't see as needing to be connected. But until we can see what a decker can do both offensively hacking someone and defensively protecting the team from being hacked, it will be a sensitive area.

But the same could be said for the general paranoia one has about mages. Sure YOUR mage is a kind hearted upstanding citizen, but then you get the guys like Haze who literally F up your mind.

It's just a quirk we all have. Shoot us in the leg / toss down a fireball and its ticking some boxes off the sheet. Mess with our minds or our gear and its personal.

[Tashiro]

Having your cyberware hacked is not fun. It is the D&D equivalent of constantly hitting the fighter with Mind Control spells after hitting the mage with Disintegrate.

1) It can be fun. PCs hacking opponent's cyberware as part of a plot can be great fun. (Been done by my group), and I'm going to have one of the PCs get hacked in the near future as a set-up for something.

2) Geek the Mage is a tried-and-true in D&D. Disintegrate is a good tool for that. Then control the warrior. Why not? Seriously, if the bad guys have an ounce of common sense, this is the path to go. (The other tactic I like doing is having the bad guys be reasonable and charming, so the PCs feel disinclined to fight - the bad guy continues to do his Evil Stuff, but the PCs have trouble finding justification for killing him, because in context, his actions are 100% justified. Just ruthless).

I've actually had a succubus Charm an entire PC party except for one person -- and it all happened through conversation, so the players were cool with it (since it felt appropriate by context, instead of hammer), and the one person not charmed was left twisting in the wind trying to figure out how to get the other PCs rescued. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Fun times.

[Tashiro]

But the same could be said for the general paranoia one has about mages. Sure YOUR mage is a kind hearted upstanding citizen, but then you get the guys like Haze who literally F up your mind.

It's just a quirk we all have. Shoot us in the leg / toss down a fireball and its ticking some boxes off the sheet. Mess with our minds or our gear and its personal.

Excellent point. It's really strange how 'agency' works in roleplaying games. Combat doesn't seem to remove agency - unless your character is killed, but as soon as you get into control issues, things can go horribly south. And I've heard far too many people who think that actually killing PCs is Wrong Fun or some sort of horrible sin, which really confuses the hell out of me. (You're playing characters in an occupation where death is expected sooner rather than later - why are you expecting to be immune?)

But yeah. Illusions, mind control, emotion control, fear effects, and the like seem to cause a strange, knee-jerk reaction. Sure, some groups don't mind using it on NPCs, but the second it is turned on the PCs you get a minor riot on your hands. Just... strange.

[Draco18s]

1) It can be fun.

Can. Emphasis on can.
That doesn't mean it always is. And if it's not always fun, then it needs to be relegated to Plot Device, not Standard Practice.

For example, there was a D&D game my friend was in, and he made a character that had enough Break Object bonuses that he could Kool-ade Man through walls. The party enters some po-dunk village in the middle of nowhere.

All of the walls were reinforced with Wall of Force.

For no reason.

Just to keep the character from busting through the floors (and ceilings and floors...)

Another character in the same game focused on being able to push opponents around the field. What kinds of enemies did the GM throw at him? Immovable Monks.

[Tashiro]

Can. Emphasis on can.
That doesn't mean it always is. And if it's not always fun, then it needs to be relegated to Plot Device, not Standard Practice.

I've heard a similar argument with Vampire, re: Presence / Dominate. Some game masters completely refuse to have those powers available, because they have serious issues with mind / emotion control. And I can agree, Presence / Dominate powers can be seriously not fun if used as a hammer. That doesn't mean they should be removed from the game or relegated to plot device.

For example, there was a D&D game my friend was in, and he made a character that had enough Break Object bonuses that he could Kool-ade Man through walls. The party enters some po-dunk village in the middle of nowhere. All of the walls were reinforced with Wall of Force. For no reason. Just to keep the character from busting through the floors (and ceilings and floors...)

I would call that metagaming, and bad form. If the players have taken the means to perform 'action X', then you should fully let them use these abilities. Actually, this came up with Pathfinder last Wednesday - the GM's getting frustrated at our tactics for dealing with threats (invisibility, stealth, teleportation, use of Wall of Thorns). He's been looking at ways to nerf or mitigate our capabilities, not understanding that this is par for the course for a game at our level. :\ As a GM, I tend to applaud players breaking the adventure, because I don't have any vested interest in controlling the players - I let them act as they will, and I just handle the consequences.

Another character in the same game focused on being able to push opponents around the field. What kinds of enemies did the GM throw at him? Immovable Monks.

Yeah. Very bad GM.

[cndblank]

I had to null vote too.
You are missing the point.

The hacking cyberware is not the problem.
That is plenty cool, I just don't think that the military and para military would leave themselves exposed like that.
I think a decker can have plenty of fun targeting the non military hardware.
To be fair, the only players that should be allowed to vote on this are the ones that have a GM with a "What goes around - Comes around" attitude and will be trying to hack the PC's cyberware right back. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The problem is that SR5 is forcing everything to be matrix connected and writing out the skinlink (real technology existing today) and the DNI link so that the Pros are just as exposed as everyone else is a bad idea.
And don't say you don't have to go wireless. You can just stay offline. All the technology that made that possible has been removed or ignored.

Also a good idea like bonus for being Matrix Connected is being forced to be universal when it shouldn't be.
If I have a data jack or a smartgun link induction pad in my hand so that I have a DNI link to my LMG, how come I can't deploy the bipod/tripod as a free action unless the LMG is connected to the matrix (leaving a nice set of digital fingerprints as it meshes with every device in range)? And Smartgun links are now worthless for anyone not an expert with a firearm unless they are matrix connected. Which makes the GM's job harder since the 4th Edition Smartguns gave a lot more benefit to the GM's Mooks than the PCs. Plus 2 dices for someone with Automatics 3 is a lot more useful than plus 2 dice to some one with automatics 5 and a specialization.

The poll should be about how exposed military cyberware should be or should some Matrix Bonuses be dropped or set up to also work with DNI interfaces.

Like "Who thinks that some of the matrix bonuses (like the one for Bipod/Tripod) should also apply if the user had a DNI (via skinlink, fibercoptic cable, or smartgun link induction pads)?"

Or "Who thinks that the skinlink should be added back in to the SR5 main rule book via errata?"

I'm expecting great things from SR5 and I'm sorry you and the rest on feeling the heat like this on something that you should be proud of.
The delayed rollout of the PDF is certainly not helping and I know you guys have nothing to do with that.

[Jonny Reload]

I've heard a similar argument with Vampire, re: Presence / Dominate. Some game masters completely refuse to have those powers available, because they have serious issues with mind / emotion control. And I can agree, Presence / Dominate powers can be seriously not fun if used as a hammer. That doesn't mean they should be removed from the game or relegated to plot device.

Players who can't surrender control of their character for the sake of the storyline shouldn't be role playing period.

GM's who don't know when to reign in their power of controlling their player's characters should not be allowed to GM.

People have to understand that any rpg is an agreement of trust and mutual cooperation between the person running the game as well as the people participating in it. Unfortunately there are some people out there who really need therapy yet they feel entitled to their own way just because they can buy some RPG material and claim to know what's best.

[Mäx]

Video is pretty cool(as is all of GitS) but you poll is utter crap and has nothing to do with the real issue.
Problem isn't truly cyber hacking(not for me at least) its the horrible and utter crap like the so called matrix bonuses(actual real matrix bonuses that make sense might have been cool, too bad writers where too lazy to come up with any) that was added to the game to try and make it possible.

[Draco18s]

Problem isn't truly cyber hacking(not for me at least) its the horrible and utter crap like the so called matrix bonuses(actual real matrix bonuses that make sense might have been cool, too bad writers where too lazy to come up with any) that was added to the game to try and make it possible.

This. Very much this.

On a conceptual level, I have no issue with cyberware hacking. I have issues with hacking in general. Because type A (breaking into a network and stealing data/taking control of a device) is too hard, but type B (spoofing a guy's arm into choking himself) is too easy and too slow.

The new rules haven't fixed that, as far as I can tell, and only made it worse.

Only now instead of type B being too easy, type B has become too hard, and now we have a new "type" that is just as easy as type B was, faster, but screws with gear. Gear that has no right being wireless (extendable batons? really?).

[cndblank]

Video is pretty cool(as is all of GitS) but you poll is utter crap and has nothing to do with the real issue.
Problem isn't truly cyber hacking(not for me at least) its the horrible and utter crap like the so called matrix bonuses(actual real matrix bonuses that make sense might have been cool, too bad writers where too lazy to come up with any) that was added to the game to try and make it possible.

It is still plenty possible.
Instead of hacking the cybereyes of the Corporate Strike Team (who would know better), how about hacking the cyber eyes of the semi truck driver heading their way.