Object resistance in SR5 - seriously? Options

[Machiavelli]

Ok, i think most of you already know that i hate SR5 and i don´t want to start another flaming- and ranting-thread. But i am not absolutely sure if i understood the rules correctly and at least i am asking for advice before i hate SR5 even more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Acc. to the object resistance table, computers, drones and similar high-technological equipment have an object rating of 15+. Does this mean, that even an absolutely maxed out mage (character creation-wise), would only barely be able to affect a drone? My character now has Spellcasting 6, a specialization for manipulation spells (+2) and a magic rating of 7. Means, that i roll 15 dice...which is equal to a common drone!!! If this i correct, can i assume that you need immortal elves or dragons to do the following jobs?:

a) checking out for drones with the (upcoming) version of the detect [object] spell?
b) levitating of a comlink or computer?
c) sneaking by a drone, with an improved invisibility spell?
d) detroying a drone with an energy-bolt-spell?

[Mantis]

Yeah that is exactly what it means. However all this table is is taking the object resistance table from SR4A and multiplying the thresholds by 3 to get the dice pools. Not sure which is actually harder to deal with, a threshold of 5 or going against 15 dice. I suppose the dice pool is harder since there is always a chance that the GM will roll better than average (5 hits) and make your spell (more) useless. Though even with average hits, you still need to have at least an 18 pool so you get a net hit for some sort of effect.
Hey, good thing they upped the skill cap so you can still try to amass the pool you need to levitate that drone. Not that your starting character can get a pool like that. Suppose you are supposed to spend all the karma from your first adventures on increasing your magic skill.
I'm with you on not liking this edition but I'm playing with it to see if there are bits I can lift for our 4th edition game. Most notably the matrix rules without the bricking.

[Machiavelli]

*High-Five for not liking SR 5 from continent to continent* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Bigity]

Ugh, that seems way way off.

[BishopMcQ]

Which part Bigity?

The Object Resistance is correct from the book, and the [OR]x3 seems consistent. One thing to remember is that the drone or commlink etc, won't have Edge, which the character will, so that can change things in favor of the player. Otherwise, the transition to a Dice Pool sticks with the trend that effecting something else is an Opposed Test.

This means that sometimes you can get lucky with a low Force spell, or pull out the big cannons and get kicked in the teeth--it makes Magic and technology a riskier combination to try.

[FuelDrop]

Also, it's not like mages have no options when it comes to high-OR opposition. They still get all the counters mundanes do, and with how frail drones are now indirect spells are more powerful than ever.

[Bigity]

I went back and re-read. I was reacting to the idea that the thresholds were in the 15 range, not the die pool you were rolling against.

[Epicedion]

There's also a little bit of "you're doing it wrong" in this.

Specifically with Levitate, the wording precludes a drone or a computer or whatnot from making a resistance test. Objects set a threshold based on their mass (attended objects get a resistance roll from whoever's trying to keep hands on). Only unwilling, specifically living targets get to resist the spell directly. Drones typically aren't "living" or "attended" (not in the sense that they're being held down, anyway, so the Str+Bod roll wouldn't apply).

On to Mana damage spells -- yeah, you're boned. Though you've always been pretty boned, anyway. Use a lightning bolt.

When you get down to the detection spells, well, you're probably more boned that you used to be, but at the same time "Detect Drones" is more in the Decker's realm of expertise. Doing magic against technology is hard.

Then we come down to the physical illusions, like Improved Invisibility. Cameras rank in at OR 9, which means they're a fairly tough nut, but probably not at a serious advantage. Drones make things difficult, requiring somewhat more clever solutions that don't target OR -- Shadow is a good one, or Physical Barrier (in a dome, around the drone).

[Smash]

a) checking out for drones with the (upcoming) version of the detect [object] spell?

Well, should you auto-succeed at this? Besides isn't detecting devices what Deckers are for?

b) levitating of a comlink or computer?

Reading the spell suggests that only living beings can resist.

c) sneaking by a drone, with an improved invisibility spell?

Again, should this always just work? Even if the spell doesn't work is the dog brain likely to spot you if you just sneak past?

d) detroying a drone with an energy-bolt-spell?

Don't drones resist with body and armour like everything else?

[Draco18s]

Don't drones resist with body and armour like everything else?

Replace "energy bolt" with "wreck [object]." IIRC, the Wreck spell still opposes OR with the irony being that the spell doesn't get a bonus for being typed appropriately.

[BishopMcQ]

Draco -- The general benefit of Wreck was the lower Drain Value. SR4 didn't change OR based on the spell being typed appropriately.

[Draco18s]

Draco -- The general benefit of Wreck was the lower Drain Value. SR4 didn't change OR based on the spell being typed appropriately.

One more reason I am my own game designer.

[Machiavelli]

My english seems to be too bad for this conversation. So a little "WHAT???" from me. ^^

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My english seems to be too bad for this conversation. So a little "WHAT???" from me. ^^

Specific Question to which statement, Machiavelli?
I believe that Draco prefers object resistance to be diminished against a spell specifically designed to affect a specific thing. Like Wreck Automobiles potentially having less resistance against Automobiles as opposed to Guns (which it is not designed for, but could still potentially affect). Of course, SR has never worked that way, adjusting Drain and Targeting for specificity rather than OR.

[Draco18s]

Specific Question to which statement, Machiavelli?
I believe that Draco prefers object resistance to be diminished against a spell specifically designed to affect a specific thing. Like Wreck Automobiles potentially having less resistance against Automobiles as opposed to Guns (which it is not designed for, but could still potentially affect). Of course, SR has never worked that way, adjusting Drain and Targeting for specificity rather than OR.

Well, not precisely that Wreck (cars) could effect guns, rather that low-magic characters got no benefit from taking Wreck over anything else. Sure the drain was lower, but big frakking deal if you can't cast at a force high enough to matter.

It should have had the same drain, but reduced OR thresholds.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, not precisely that Wreck (cars) could effect guns, rather that low-magic characters got no benefit from taking Wreck over anything else. Sure the drain was lower, but big frakking deal if you can't cast at a force high enough to matter.

It should have had the same drain, but reduced OR thresholds.

I see where you are going... Difference of opinion, I guess...

I have NEVER actually seen a PC (SR4A or previous Editions) who could not hit the OR Thresholds (some easily, and some with a little effort).
Problem with the new edition is that now those Average Magicians (you know, the most common levels of ability trending throughout the world) that I play will be nigh useless for certain things more often than not due to a Dice pool opposed test (for OR) rather than the simple test for success of a Static OR. Even Resistance for Living targets is not as brutal as OR tends to be in SR5. Especially once your Spell Resistance (Counterspelling) runs out.

I FAR prefer static OR over Opposed OR. *shrug*

[Draco18s]

I FAR prefer static OR over Opposed OR. *shrug*

Oh, agreed.

[Machiavelli]

Well, should you auto-succeed at this? Besides isn't detecting devices what Deckers are for?

I agree, but should it be something that mages are not able to do at all? Besides, what sense does it make to have this spell in the grimoire, if you only manage to detect stuff that has never been touched by a human? Do you see many uses in the spell "detect stone"? Do you really want to tell me that Magic "is not intended to deal with reality" - while reality easily can affect magic? I always thought magic is the power to alter reality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Doesn´t seem to be balanced. And a mage that can´t even do an inventory at a computer store is so stupid...

Reading the spell suggests that only living beings can resist.

Wrong. Re-read the rules. Levitation is a transformation spell. Transformations are resisted with either body+strenght (living things) or object resistance (non-living things). Means, you cannot even levitate your fu**ng 30 grams comlink.

Again, should this always just work? Even if the spell doesn't work is the dog brain likely to spot you if you just sneak past?

We are not talking about "should automatically work", we are talking about "average mage should at least have the chance to succeed. SR5 is: "mage has no chance against technology"...which is bull**t.

Don't drones resist with body and armour like everything else?

Agains indirect spells, yes. But energy bolt, etc. are direct spells. No armor, resisted with body. In the german book they say "Konstitution" which means "body", but the "body" of a drone is called "Rumpf", which is not mentioned in the rules. So i think this needs more clarification.

[Jack VII]

Wrong. Re-read the rules. Levitation is a transformation spell. Transformations are resisted with either body+strenght (living things) or object resistance (non-living things). Means, you cannot even levitate your fu**ng 30 grams comlink.

The direct quote from the book concerning Physical Manipulation spells is:

Physical: These spells affect physical forms and are usually defended against with a living target’s Body + Strength or an inanimate object’s Object Resistance dice pool.

Emphasis added. Whether the specifics of the Levitation spell description are meant to override the standard rules (although why would they reiterate them if they weren't overriding them?) is inevitably up to the GM to arbitrate.

[Machiavelli]

The direct quote from the book concerning Physical Manipulation spells is:

Emphasis added. Whether the specifics of the Levitation spell description are meant to override the standard rules (although why would they reiterate them if they weren't overriding them?) is inevitably up to the GM to arbitrate.

Because of what? Of the word "usually"? What is "usually"? Monday to Friday but not on weekends or on holidays? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jack VII]

Because of what? Of the word "usually"? What is "usually"? Monday to Friday but not on weekends or on holidays? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Typically, it means if the specific spell description explains otherwise.

[Machiavelli]

I see your point, but the wording is quite weak.

[Epicedion]

I see your point, but the wording is quite weak.

Actually the wording on Levitate is rather explicit -- objects set a threshold based on mass. Unwilling living things get a resistance roll.

[Machiavelli]

Right, but you can also read it as "transformation" says: non-living things defend (as usual) with object resistance and in addition you have to beat the threshold, based on the weight".

[Epicedion]

Right, but you can also read it as "transformation says non-living things defend as usual with object resistance and in addition you have to beat the threshold, based on the weight".

No, you really can't. This might be a translation nuance thing, but the phrase "usually does X" isn't an indication that it always does X, as usual. It means that it most often does X, though you should expect this to occasionally be superseded by other rules. In the case of Levitate, the spell explicitly states that objects set a threshold based on mass. Not a threshold + OR roll.