Ok, i think most of you already know that i hate SR5 and i don´t want to start another flaming- and ranting-thread. But i am not absolutely sure if i understood the rules correctly and at least i am asking for advice before i hate SR5 even more.

Acc. to the object resistance table, computers, drones and similar high-technological equipment have an object rating of 15+. Does this mean, that even an absolutely maxed out mage (character creation-wise), would only barely be able to affect a drone? My character now has Spellcasting 6, a specialization for manipulation spells (+2) and a magic rating of 7. Means, that i roll 15 dice...which is equal to a common drone!!! If this i correct, can i assume that you need immortal elves or dragons to do the following jobs?:

a) checking out for drones with the (upcoming) version of the detect [object] spell?
b) levitating of a comlink or computer?
c) sneaking by a drone, with an improved invisibility spell?
d) detroying a drone with an energy-bolt-spell?

Yeah that is exactly what it means. However all this table is is taking the object resistance table from SR4A and multiplying the thresholds by 3 to get the dice pools. Not sure which is actually harder to deal with, a threshold of 5 or going against 15 dice. I suppose the dice pool is harder since there is always a chance that the GM will roll better than average (5 hits) and make your spell (more) useless. Though even with average hits, you still need to have at least an 18 pool so you get a net hit for some sort of effect.
Hey, good thing they upped the skill cap so you can still try to amass the pool you need to levitate that drone. Not that your starting character can get a pool like that. Suppose you are supposed to spend all the karma from your first adventures on increasing your magic skill.
I'm with you on not liking this edition but I'm playing with it to see if there are bits I can lift for our 4th edition game. Most notably the matrix rules without the bricking.

*High-Five for not liking SR 5 from continent to continent*

Ugh, that seems way way off.

Which part Bigity?

The Object Resistance is correct from the book, and the [OR]x3 seems consistent. One thing to remember is that the drone or commlink etc, won't have Edge, which the character will, so that can change things in favor of the player. Otherwise, the transition to a Dice Pool sticks with the trend that effecting something else is an Opposed Test.

This means that sometimes you can get lucky with a low Force spell, or pull out the big cannons and get kicked in the teeth--it makes Magic and technology a riskier combination to try.

Also, it's not like mages have no options when it comes to high-OR opposition. They still get all the counters mundanes do, and with how frail drones are now indirect spells are more powerful than ever.

I went back and re-read. I was reacting to the idea that the thresholds were in the 15 range, not the die pool you were rolling against.

There's also a little bit of "you're doing it wrong" in this.

Specifically with Levitate, the wording precludes a drone or a computer or whatnot from making a resistance test. Objects set a threshold based on their mass (attended objects get a resistance roll from whoever's trying to keep hands on). Only unwilling, specifically living targets get to resist the spell directly. Drones typically aren't "living" or "attended" (not in the sense that they're being held down, anyway, so the Str+Bod roll wouldn't apply).

On to Mana damage spells -- yeah, you're boned. Though you've always been pretty boned, anyway. Use a lightning bolt.

When you get down to the detection spells, well, you're probably more boned that you used to be, but at the same time "Detect Drones" is more in the Decker's realm of expertise. Doing magic against technology is hard.

Then we come down to the physical illusions, like Improved Invisibility. Cameras rank in at OR 9, which means they're a fairly tough nut, but probably not at a serious advantage. Drones make things difficult, requiring somewhat more clever solutions that don't target OR -- Shadow is a good one, or Physical Barrier (in a dome, around the drone).

Well, should you auto-succeed at this? Besides isn't detecting devices what Deckers are for?



Reading the spell suggests that only living beings can resist.



Again, should this always just work? Even if the spell doesn't work is the dog brain likely to spot you if you just sneak past?



Don't drones resist with body and armour like everything else?

Replace "energy bolt" with "wreck [object]." IIRC, the Wreck spell still opposes OR with the irony being that the spell doesn't get a bonus for being typed appropriately.

Draco -- The general benefit of Wreck was the lower Drain Value. SR4 didn't change OR based on the spell being typed appropriately.

One more reason I am my own game designer.

My english seems to be too bad for this conversation. So a little "WHAT???" from me. ^^

Specific Question to which statement, Machiavelli?
I believe that Draco prefers object resistance to be diminished against a spell specifically designed to affect a specific thing. Like Wreck Automobiles potentially having less resistance against Automobiles as opposed to Guns (which it is not designed for, but could still potentially affect). Of course, SR has never worked that way, adjusting Drain and Targeting for specificity rather than OR.

Well, not precisely that Wreck (cars) could effect guns, rather that low-magic characters got no benefit from taking Wreck over anything else. Sure the drain was lower, but big frakking deal if you can't cast at a force high enough to matter.

It should have had the same drain, but reduced OR thresholds.

I see where you are going... Difference of opinion, I guess...

I have NEVER actually seen a PC (SR4A or previous Editions) who could not hit the OR Thresholds (some easily, and some with a little effort).
Problem with the new edition is that now those Average Magicians (you know, the most common levels of ability trending throughout the world) that I play will be nigh useless for certain things more often than not due to a Dice pool opposed test (for OR) rather than the simple test for success of a Static OR. Even Resistance for Living targets is not as brutal as OR tends to be in SR5. Especially once your Spell Resistance (Counterspelling) runs out.

I FAR prefer static OR over Opposed OR. *shrug*

Oh, agreed.

I agree, but should it be something that mages are not able to do at all? Besides, what sense does it make to have this spell in the grimoire, if you only manage to detect stuff that has never been touched by a human? Do you see many uses in the spell "detect stone"? Do you really want to tell me that Magic "is not intended to deal with reality" - while reality easily can affect magic? I always thought magic is the power to alter reality. Doesn´t seem to be balanced. And a mage that can´t even do an inventory at a computer store is so stupid...



Wrong. Re-read the rules. Levitation is a transformation spell. Transformations are resisted with either body+strenght (living things) or object resistance (non-living things). Means, you cannot even levitate your fu**ng 30 grams comlink.



We are not talking about "should automatically work", we are talking about "average mage should at least have the chance to succeed. SR5 is: "mage has no chance against technology"...which is bull**t.



Agains indirect spells, yes. But energy bolt, etc. are direct spells. No armor, resisted with body. In the german book they say "Konstitution" which means "body", but the "body" of a drone is called "Rumpf", which is not mentioned in the rules. So i think this needs more clarification.

The direct quote from the book concerning Physical Manipulation spells is:

Emphasis added. Whether the specifics of the Levitation spell description are meant to override the standard rules (although why would they reiterate them if they weren't overriding them?) is inevitably up to the GM to arbitrate.

Because of what? Of the word "usually"? What is "usually"? Monday to Friday but not on weekends or on holidays?

Typically, it means if the specific spell description explains otherwise.

I see your point, but the wording is quite weak.

Actually the wording on Levitate is rather explicit -- objects set a threshold based on mass. Unwilling living things get a resistance roll.

Right, but you can also read it as "transformation" says: non-living things defend (as usual) with object resistance and in addition you have to beat the threshold, based on the weight".

No, you really can't. This might be a translation nuance thing, but the phrase "usually does X" isn't an indication that it always does X, as usual. It means that it most often does X, though you should expect this to occasionally be superseded by other rules. In the case of Levitate, the spell explicitly states that objects set a threshold based on mass. Not a threshold + OR roll.

I really tend to your kind of explanation, but "clear wording" is something different.

PS: it also would make more sense if you compare it with the - quite clear - detection spells. ^^

It's also worth noting that neither Magic Fingers nor Fling mention resistance tests for the objects being manipulated, either - all 3 being telekinetic effects that only move objects rather than modify them, it makes sense that they are basically similar in treatment. Other (non-telekinetic) Physical Manipulation spells that target objects and directly modify them, like Animate and Ignite, explicitly specify an Object Resistance test.

They have a chance - in fact, the only real shift in terms of what the probability for success is comes from the fact that ties resolve for the defender. Meaning that OR pools could, potentially, do with being modified down a touch.

This does make spellcasting less reliable for technological sensors all the same, though, as two cameras (for example) can roll differently for OR.

1e and I think 2e actually did work that way the wreck/ram spell lines were not just power bolt with limitations they had specific benefits. IIRC the barrier rating of object was halved. I tend to agree that they should be better at the job and not just easier to cast. A force 6 power bolt is only 3 drain after all, and with a minimum drain of 2 the value add of less drain is pretty small.

As for the OR argument in general. I prefer the die roll, I think the lack of predictability adds tension and makes magic seem more magicky.

I'm not sure where you get 'no chance' from. Yes a magic 4 spellcasting 4 magician probably isn't going to have 'much of a chance' but a 6/6 magician with a specialisation in manipulation spells has pretty much a 50/50 chance at creation. He will automatically succeed (pretty much) when he's at rolling 23 dice towards the end of his career. Sometimes I think people are so addicted to starting this game at the end-game they just don't understand that there is scope for characters to improve in 5th Ed.

I guess what you're suggesating is that perhaps OR shouldn't just be a set number (15+) for all devices? This is can agree with however the only way to deal with it would be to attach OR to every item in shadowrun which I think we've missed the boat on.

Really, i don´t have a problem with casting spells being not easy. But I have a problem with magic that is not intended to work. Or IS working, but under so hard conditions, that the chance is so small (and for a “regular” mage near impossible) that it doesn´t pay out to try.

I also don´t get the whole point of the latest arguments. Everbody is trying to argue, that the mage CAN do it, but it is hard, but not THAT hard, blablabla…but would the discussion be the same, if only maxed sams with aptitude in firearms are able to hit a target? What was here the intention of the Devs? Hyper-Specialisation of characters if they want to do a good job? Powergaming and Min-Maxing, because otherwise you can´t deal with anything?

Smash was saying the right thing: at the END of the career, you have ONE skill on is max, and these characters are then able to fool a drone? C´mon, do you think this makes fun?

So, where do you figure the success rate should sit?

They're mages. their single skill should cover everything at 100% success rate or it isn't fair on them.

No, you're wrong. It should sit at a 0% success rate or it isn't fair to everyone else.

Technomancers should be able to do some Mage-y stuff to technology, but inversely proportional to OR.

Not sure where you are getting 23 Dice as an End of Career DP. I have been playing a Mage for 400 Karma (SR4A; with Magic 3, 5 Spellcasting and a Manipulation Specialty) and am at 12-13 Dice in my Specialty Category (Manipulation Spells) and at about 8 Dice in every other category. I would consider the character I play as a "Normal" magician in that he trends the average levels of power one would expect an Average Spellcaster in the world to attain in his career. I would consider the Caster with 23 Dice to be an Edge Case in every way.

I think most people would (and do) choose to play an exceptional character rather than "Average Guy".

I don't disagree that a 23 dice pool is exceptional, but it's intended to be, and not completely ludicrous for a 400-karma character: Magic 8, Spellcasting 8, Spellcasting focus 2, Power focus 2, and a specialization will get you 22 dice, and that's not even 150 Karma if you started with 6's, which leaves tons of room for rounding out.

Rules should be built for the Average occupant of a world, not the Exceptional or Hyper Specialized, otherwise the Exceptional or Hyper Specialized isn't.

Would you not agree that a mage casting a spell that is intended to effect technology needing to have ~20 dice to do better than the resistance roll, on average, be outside the "average occupant" ideals you adhere to?

That is:
The rules, as written, encourage hyperspecialization as the number of dice needed to effect an OR5 camera are more than the "average occupant" will have.

Depends on if the mage is supposed to have an easy time on it or not. If technology is supposed to be their weakness requiring specialization to hit it on the norm fits as the average occupant is supposed to fail. It's like saying why didn't i notice the Tir Ghost sneaking up on me I have the perception skill of the average occupant of the world.

Side note sensors are OR 9, so illusions even when going against a drone probably go against OR 9 just like in 4e it was OR 3 for sensors and OR 5 for drones.

an opposed roll is much more hit and miss because both sides could have amazingly good/bad rolls, but a treshhold is simply a:"no" button, if the treshhold is above dice pool right?

Yes. Excepting edge.
Ditto if the threshold is above the maximum force the mage can cast.
I.e. TH3 is not reachable for a Magic 1, Spellcasting 6, Specialization+2 mage, no matter what.

Sure, but the thresholds were 1-5ish in 4e and having less than 5 dice was rare. Realistically you needed 15+ dice to hit the OR threshold of 5 in 4e, now its close to the same probability but it is more swingy.

Magic 1 mage buiilds. Not really common in my games. So yes at the extrem where you were force capped out of beating the threshold or have a really low dicepool due to lets say background count in 4e thresholds were impossible to hit.

The Average Occupant isn't a successful Shadowrunner. Maybe they were, back in 1st edition when the game's archetypes included options like Rock Star, but the focus of Shadowrun has since moved away from "normal people falling between the cracks" and towards "highly skilled specialists".

I'm not so sure of that. I think the average is supposed to be the average and people who fall between the cracks is the norm for a shadowrunner. But I don't think the average mage shadowrunner or otherwise is supposed to succeed against every challenge. Drones and high tech devices are their weakness, they should be falling back on their team against them instead of muscling through it with awesome magical power.

Simply THIS. What more can you say?

Just hyperbole in the other direction.

That's why we are working on the Bypass Object Resistance Grenade, utilizing a tiny amount (0.1 milligram) of AM so that when it goes off, resistance is futile.

(yield is equivalent to 4 tons of TNT: (4 tons is 3632 kg. TNT is rating 5 explosive, so 5 * square root of 3632 [60.27] for DV 301P )

Granted it is a bit over 1.5 Million nuyen for a single grenade, launcher and lead lined underwear costs extra- the tan you will get is free, but sometimes you have to say it with science, preferably out of a flying vehicle so as to clear the blast area.

When the smoke clears, then you can use the spells for mopping up.

Many, many things. But I'd still like to know what you think the rate of success for mages trying to defeat technology should be.