Question about GOD, militaries and deckers Options

[Drace]

First off, this is mostly speculation and will hopefully be answered in th matrix sourcebook in 6months-2years.

How does the matrix work for militaries, military engagements and the like?

I assume if it's black ops/off the book then like normal since the military decker won't be sanctioned, but what about if there is an engagement between two militaries (corp or national)? Do the military deckers build up OS as they carry out actions defending or engaging? Or would they be sanctioned personas operating agaisnt sanctioned persona/legitimate hosts/devices?

Example: Salish and Tshimish go to war again. A Salish military decker is attempting to shutdown the security grid of a Tshimish military base. They are legally at war so what would happen? Would the decker eventually get dumped and reported?

As well, how would remote installations work? I would assume they would have their own grid, but not be a host (and therefore findable on the whole matrix). Would it be a private grid with a series of private and secured nodes, or would it be a private grid with a private host only on the one grid? If the grid connected to the rest I the matrix could you then not use the public (free but drek) grid to then access it?

[Smash]

I anint touching this with a 10' pole.

except to say 'Check out this thread http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=40269

It gets derailed with military decking at some point.

In short, there is no defined way this works because Shadowrun is written from the perspective of a very selective niche.

[Jaid]

his first question, at least, is fairly new.

my personal opinion:

GOD is a corporate-run organization. if the military organizations in question have paid their bills and are in good standing with the corporate court, the corporate court doesn't care if they're trying to shoot each other. neither side has to deal with OS.

but if you're talking about, say, aztlan vs the assorted rebels in the yucatan peninsula (not that the situation is quite the same over there), you'd have the corporate-sponsored forces free of OS, but not the rebels.

GOD doesn't exist to enforce the law or peace or anything like that. it exists to make sure the matrix favours their corporate masters. so long as you're giving them enough money and not harming their ability to make money, they don't much care what you're doing.

edit: to the second question, the matrix pretty much reaches everywhere there isn't jamming. they probably have their own grid, such as it is (and it's probably the only one), but it wouldn't be impossible to find since it would (so far as we know presently) still be a part of the regular matrix. also, hosts in hidden mode are pretty hard to find, so there's no reason such a facility couldn't use a host.

[binarywraith]

Given the rules as written, no sane military has any real need for a decker in the field because using wireless-active gear is suicide for ground troops if the opposing electronic warfare unit is any good at all. Even a milspec host is compromised the very moment a single piece of gear connected to it is in enemy hands.

Military usage (or field usage in general) was poorly thought out in the rules as published and may possibly be filled in with devices and rules that will be released in later books.

[Sendaz]

Given the rules as written, no sane military has any real need for a decker in the field because using wireless-active gear is suicide for ground troops if the opposing electronic warfare unit is any good at all. Even a milspec host is compromised the very moment a single piece of gear connected to it is in enemy hands.

Military usage (or field usage in general) was poorly thought out in the rules as published and may possibly be filled in with devices and rules that will be released in later books.

Yet the preview #4 is up and they are talking about decking for small unit tactics, so the fluff is still being pushed for this. Will have to see what the rest of the chapter offers for this in the game info section.

[Happy Trees]

With the ability to turn off wireless connectivity and the fact that wired interaction is a useable security measure, I would think military deckers would be both relevant, often required, and relatively able to remain silent.

[ProfGast]

I imagine that militaries are governed by the same Matrix Rules as anyone else. After all the GOD are there to ensure the sanctity of their creation and any ways for militaries to bypass their kingdom would be pretty quickly diseminated into the shadows a la Bradley (Angela?) Manning style.

That said the military forces would definitely have their own proprietary hosts or even minor grids to run off of, depending on relative wealth or influence. I also imagine that established Corp forces may be able to grease the wheels a bit when it comes to Overwatch scores:

"Sergeant, the GODs have seen fit to grant us a Six-Zero minute opening. Get your boys moving and make the most of it before it expires."

[DeathStrobe]

Given the rules as written, no sane military has any real need for a decker in the field because using wireless-active gear is suicide for ground troops if the opposing electronic warfare unit is any good at all. Even a milspec host is compromised the very moment a single piece of gear connected to it is in enemy hands.

Military usage (or field usage in general) was poorly thought out in the rules as published and may possibly be filled in with devices and rules that will be released in later books.

I don't understand why they wouldn't have deckers on the frontlines? Clearly the person that controls the frontline's Matrix gets access to seemingly instantaneous communications and your units get to use their wireless boni with impunity.

You have illustrated a pretty good reason to not use hosts, which makes sense. But if you compromise a master device, it does not get you access to all of a unit's gear. Thus decks would probably be prefered. Like the book says, hosts are usually limited to the number of devices that can securely be slaved to it. So probably a military base, not every persons gear on the frontline, since they can't guarantee protection fort every person's gear on the frontline.

[Jaid]

the problem with assuming decks all over the place is that it is ridiculously cheaper to jam everything so that even if you lose the matrix battle, the other side won't get their matrix bonuses.

so even if one side has a ridiculously superior matrix presence (which is going to cost enough money that you could probably outfit another two regular soldiers with a lot of cyberware, at the very least), the other side can relatively easily negate the wireless bonuses obtained through it.

i mean, it's 345,000 just for the cyberdeck. and then the other side just pulls out a 1200 nuyen rating 6 directional jammer (assuming military organizations don't have access to stronger ones) and there goes all your stupid wireless bonuses. won't shut down riggers, but just about anything else is gonna get wrecked. if we presume they stack (RAW they would, RAI is about as clear as mud on this), it's impossible to defend against it (if it doesn't stack it's just really hard to defend against) once you're in range. not to mention they could just lob area jammers at you if they want, which greatly extends the range.

[psychophipps]

the problem with assuming decks all over the place is that it is ridiculously cheaper to jam everything so that even if you lose the matrix battle, the other side won't get their matrix bonuses.

so even if one side has a ridiculously superior matrix presence (which is going to cost enough money that you could probably outfit another two regular soldiers with a lot of cyberware, at the very least), the other side can relatively easily negate the wireless bonuses obtained through it.

i mean, it's 345,000 just for the cyberdeck. and then the other side just pulls out a 1200 nuyen rating 6 directional jammer (assuming military organizations don't have access to stronger ones) and there goes all your stupid wireless bonuses. won't shut down riggers, but just about anything else is gonna get wrecked. if we presume they stack (RAW they would, RAI is about as clear as mud on this), it's impossible to defend against it (if it doesn't stack it's just really hard to defend against) once you're in range. not to mention they could just lob area jammers at you if they want, which greatly extends the range.

Umm...how would a Rating 6 directional, broad spectrum jammer screw up all decking but still allow Riggers using wireless links to work with impunity?

[DeathStrobe]

the problem with assuming decks all over the place is that it is ridiculously cheaper to jam everything so that even if you lose the matrix battle, the other side won't get their matrix bonuses.

so even if one side has a ridiculously superior matrix presence (which is going to cost enough money that you could probably outfit another two regular soldiers with a lot of cyberware, at the very least), the other side can relatively easily negate the wireless bonuses obtained through it.

i mean, it's 345,000 just for the cyberdeck. and then the other side just pulls out a 1200 nuyen rating 6 directional jammer (assuming military organizations don't have access to stronger ones) and there goes all your stupid wireless bonuses. won't shut down riggers, but just about anything else is gonna get wrecked. if we presume they stack (RAW they would, RAI is about as clear as mud on this), it's impossible to defend against it (if it doesn't stack it's just really hard to defend against) once you're in range. not to mention they could just lob area jammers at you if they want, which greatly extends the range.

Lets pretend we're Aztlan, and we're fighting the dangerous Amazonian rebels. Presumably Amazonia will have a lot of area jammers on the frontline to deny us our wireless boni. But assuming they want to keep their wireless boni, they run the jammers with their wireless on. So our Aztlan deckers will have to fight the jammers with a -6 from the noise, but assuming that the decker is half decently skilled say 10dp, that's still 4 DP to brute force and data spike the jammers. Of course, the Amazonian decker won't have any of that, so will attempt to brick the Aztlan decker's deck. So of course, Aztlan deploys its own jammers to even the odds and now they're both on even footing and both taking a -6.

So lets say, that the Aztlan decker wins in this annoyingly noisy frontline combat. The Amazonian Decker turns off all wireless on the jammers, so they're still jamming, but are now jamming all signals, which does hurt the Amazonian forces, but it also hurts the Aztlan forces.

I thought, there might be an ECCM action like in SR4...but nope. that's kind of annoying. But an interesting symbiosis is that RCCs have noise reduction. So if Aztlan has a rigger, they can have the unit's gear slaved to the RCC and get their wireless boni that way, since the RCC should be able to cut through the noise. And since the Aztlan decker won the decker duel, Aztlan now controls the Matrix on the frontline, so the RCC can cut through that noise with no problem.

I think I like the idea of giving RCCs and Decks their own niche in Matrix defense/offense. You slave to the RCC, when someone is jamming you. You slave to the deck when you want to run your gear silent. And you slave to a commlink, when you're a Technomancer or have no Matrix defense otherwise. I don't like that last one as much.

[Jaid]

why would the rebels even bother having their own cyberdecks?

if they know they're going to get pwned in the matrix, they just opt out of the matrix, and spend the much smaller amount of resources required to force aztlan out of the matrix as well. particularly since devices out in the jungle are already going to be suffering noise, in that particular conflict it's quite possible even an RCC won't get you a clear connection (and in any event, you couldn't wirelessly connect to the RCC for it; you'd need each soldier to be carrying around high rating RCCs with cables to each and every one of their devices).

seriously. the rebels have the choice of spending hundreds of thousands of nuyen for every few soldiers to lose in the matrix, or they can just decide to opt out themselves, spend a tiny fraction of that amount, and take away aztlan's advantage entirely. well, take away their wireless bonuses anyways. there's always the "we have a truly obscene amount of resources" advantage, which is not so easily countered, unless aztlan is foolish enough to actually outfit their military with hundreds of thousands of nuyen worth of hardware (probably 1 deck per 2-3 soldiers, which adds up really fast when the per unit cost is crazy high) instead of spending that money on more effective ways to win the fight.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

instead of spending that money on more effective ways to win the fight.

More dakka?

[DeathStrobe]

why would the rebels even bother having their own cyberdecks?

if they know they're going to get pwned in the matrix, they just opt out of the matrix, and spend the much smaller amount of resources required to force aztlan out of the matrix as well. particularly since devices out in the jungle are already going to be suffering noise, in that particular conflict it's quite possible even an RCC won't get you a clear connection (and in any event, you couldn't wirelessly connect to the RCC for it; you'd need each soldier to be carrying around high rating RCCs with cables to each and every one of their devices).

seriously. the rebels have the choice of spending hundreds of thousands of nuyen for every few soldiers to lose in the matrix, or they can just decide to opt out themselves, spend a tiny fraction of that amount, and take away aztlan's advantage entirely. well, take away their wireless bonuses anyways. there's always the "we have a truly obscene amount of resources" advantage, which is not so easily countered, unless aztlan is foolish enough to actually outfit their military with hundreds of thousands of nuyen worth of hardware (probably 1 deck per 2-3 soldiers, which adds up really fast when the per unit cost is crazy high) instead of spending that money on more effective ways to win the fight.

I fail to see why the RCC noise reduction isn't 2 way. That'd make the RCC's noise reduction pointless because any jammer would make it so that an RCC cannot connect to its drones. Since drones will have as much noise filtering as a smartgun.

For some reason, I was thinking the frontline was actually going to be in a city. Though, I do have to admit, that in the jungle, there would be so much noise do to plant life that any Matrix warfare wouldn't be effective there. Though, I do think it is worth wild to have wireless on when assaulting a city, because its not guarantied that you will lose in the Matrix. And if you can win, then your side has the advantage on the battlefield.

[Happy Trees]

I fail to see why the RCC noise reduction isn't 2 way. That'd make the RCC's noise reduction pointless because any jammer would make it so that an RCC cannot connect to its drones. Since drones will have as much noise filtering as a smartgun. assaulting a city, because its not guarantied that you will lose in the Matrix. And if you can win, then your side has the advantage on the battlefield.

The bonuc supposedly only applies to the link between the rigger and his RCC, not between teh RCC and its slaved drones.

[binarywraith]

I don't understand why they wouldn't have deckers on the frontlines? Clearly the person that controls the frontline's Matrix gets access to seemingly instantaneous communications and your units get to use their wireless boni with impunity.

You have illustrated a pretty good reason to not use hosts, which makes sense. But if you compromise a master device, it does not get you access to all of a unit's gear. Thus decks would probably be prefered. Like the book says, hosts are usually limited to the number of devices that can securely be slaved to it. So probably a military base, not every persons gear on the frontline, since they can't guarantee protection fort every person's gear on the frontline.

Mutally assured destruction and cost. If you're not using a host, due to the even more restrictive slaving limits of a 'deck you need a trained decker and his massively expensive cyberdeck in each squad to do ECM/ECCM and keep their gear running. Since the general assumption of the setting right now is that people don't just do the smart thing and turn off all their wireless.

So on one hand, you have very expensive hosts that are easily compromised as soon as you start taking casualties, if the opponents have any Matrix assets in the field. On the other, you have an even more expensive problem of fielding enough deckers and tech to secure a force. This leads to a situation where a low-tech insurgent force like the rebels are actually at a fairly strong advantage, as they don't have to worry about any of that in exchange for a minor decrease in effectiveness... and a lesser investment in deckers of their own will have a much higher return on investment as they can get strong benefits out of much less expenditure.

In short, the way it's written leads to a very counter-intuitive result when extrapolated from the squad size the game is usually played on to the game world at large.

[DeathStrobe]

Mutally assured destruction and cost. If you're not using a host, due to the even more restrictive slaving limits of a 'deck you need a trained decker and his massively expensive cyberdeck in each squad to do ECM/ECCM and keep their gear running. Since the general assumption of the setting right now is that people don't just do the smart thing and turn off all their wireless.

So on one hand, you have very expensive hosts that are easily compromised as soon as you start taking casualties, if the opponents have any Matrix assets in the field. On the other, you have an even more expensive problem of fielding enough deckers and tech to secure a force. This leads to a situation where a low-tech insurgent force like the rebels are actually at a fairly strong advantage, as they don't have to worry about any of that in exchange for a minor decrease in effectiveness... and a lesser investment in deckers of their own will have a much higher return on investment as they can get strong benefits out of much less expenditure.

In short, the way it's written leads to a very counter-intuitive result when extrapolated from the squad size the game is usually played on to the game world at large.

That's bullshit though. Without communication the rebels would be at a complete tactical disadvantage and would never win, and only hope for a war of attrition with gorilla tactics. While the opposition has complete, if slightly noisy, Matrix control. They'll be able to have coordinated attacks, drones, sensors, maybe a tac-net assuming we get rules for that, wireless boni on their gear, and other things that wireless communications can help with.

And thinking it over, even if an RCC couldn't help cut a teams noise down (which I say it can), the highest rating commlink is rating 7. Meaning the highest rating 6 jammer can't jam it.

[Jaid]

those rating 7 commlinks are bleeding edge tech. outfitting an entire army with it is improbable.

also, you're presuming that noise doesn't stack. that may or may not be the case.

also, oddly enough no amount of jamming prevents a microtransceiver from working. you can limit the range (which is what the wireless bonus increases - dramatically, i might add), but you can't make it not work. so the rebels will still have communication available to them.

[DeathStrobe]

those rating 7 commlinks are bleeding edge tech. outfitting an entire army with it is improbable.

also, you're presuming that noise doesn't stack. that may or may not be the case.

also, oddly enough no amount of jamming prevents a microtransceiver from working. you can limit the range (which is what the wireless bonus increases - dramatically, i might add), but you can't make it not work. so the rebels will still have communication available to them.

If you're going to spend a few hundred thousand nuyen to cyber up your commandoes, why would you not spend 8,000 nuyen to give them a commlink that can't be jammed, and also allows them to have better Matrix defense if something happens to the team's decker.

Noise stacks, just not noise generators. There is only so many bands of communications you can fill before you've filled the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

The micro transceiver has a sub vocal mic, which is device rating 3, so a noise of 3 would shut it down. But since there are no specific rules that say a micro transceiver's sub vocal mic is immune to jamming, the general rule still applies.

[RHat]

If you're going to spend a few hundred thousand nuyen to cyber up your commandoes, why would you not spend 8,000 nuyen to give them a commlink that can't be jammed, and also allows them to have better Matrix defense if something happens to the team's decker.

Noise stacks, just not noise generators. There is only so many bands of communications you can fill before you've filled the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

The micro transceiver has a sub vocal mic, which is device rating 3, so a noise of 3 would shut it down. But since there are no specific rules that say a micro transceiver's sub vocal mic is immune to jamming, the general rule still applies.

Yes, but the rules for what that jamming does aren't what you seem to think - jamming only denies wireless bonuses (one of Aaron's FAQ thread answers); the non-wireless function of the transceiver would still work.

[DeathStrobe]

Yes, but the rules for what that jamming does aren't what you seem to think - jamming only denies wireless bonuses (one of Aaron's FAQ thread answers); the non-wireless function of the transceiver would still work.

Until its in Errata (or the Matrix book), I don't agree with Aaron's ruling being RAW.

[SpellBinder]

True, why not spend 8,000¥ a pop for a Fairlight Caliban now? Before 2075/01/01 a device rating 7 commlink ran at least 67,500¥ and was at least at availability 32F, and that didn't include any software.

[RHat]

Until its in Errata (or the Matrix book), I don't agree with Aaron's ruling being RAW.

Well, the book says "loses it's wireless functionality". Aaron's ruling, obviously, is that "wireless functionality" refers to the "wireless" entry on an item's description. What is it you think is the RAW meaning of that undefined phrase?

It's a weird ruling, certainly, but it's at least internally consistent.

[DeathStrobe]

Well, the book says "loses it's wireless functionality". Aaron's ruling, obviously, is that "wireless functionality" refers to the "wireless" entry on an item's description. What is it you think is the RAW meaning of that undefined phrase?

It's a weird ruling, certainly, but it's at least internally consistent.

I guess that I have to concede, that does make "sense."

But I don't think I like the idea of jammers not being able to jam some types of wireless communication while others are not effected. Like in this case.

[Drace]

those rating 7 commlinks are bleeding edge tech. outfitting an entire army with it is improbable.

also, you're presuming that noise doesn't stack. that may or may not be the case.

also, oddly enough no amount of jamming prevents a microtransceiver from working. you can limit the range (which is what the wireless bonus increases - dramatically, i might add), but you can't make it not work. so the rebels will still have communication available to them.

You also got to remember that the rt7 is bleeding edge for the private/corp sector.

It's always been a staple of shadowrun that govt military forces and some elite corp forces (less so for corp forces for the same reason corp militaries are usually lesser quality, corps are about cost/benefit more than govts) had access to programs, decks/commlinks, gear, weapons etc at a much higher rating/quality. They wouldn't b running around with te fairlight, but the specialized version made in small batches and custom ordered for a higher cost and with a much higher rating.

[RHat]

I guess that I have to concede, that does make "sense."

But I don't think I like the idea of jammers not being able to jam some types of wireless communication while others are not effected. Like in this case.

Like I say, it's a bit weird.

[Umidori]

Shouldn't militaries simply have their own Grids?

The way I see it, a Military Grid would technically be a Local Grid - unless you're within range of the infrastructure that provides the connectivity, you can't access the grid. The caveat is that the military doesn't only use fixed infrastructure - they also use mobile infrastructure.

Naturally the military is going to have a portion of their grid which is static to provide access from permanent positions such as military bases, regimental headquarters, the Pentagon, et cetera. But they're also going to want to be able to set up mobile command centers, forward communications bases, relay outposts, and that sort of thing. Additionally, they'll certainly have communications vehicles, like some updated form of AWACS soaring in the lofty upper limits of the atmosphere, acting as airborne "cell towers" for Military Grid access.

So we've got Grunt Greg on a mission to blow up a supply depot. All his personal electronics like his smartgun system and his helmet's vision enhancements and image recorder are controlled by his commlink's PAN; and his commlink connects wirelessly to the Military Grid. He's deep in enemy territory, which means his only access to the Military Grid is through the cutting edge stealth AWACS circling somewhere overhead, temporarily making the region into part of the Local Military Grid. His squad or platoon will probably also have their own remote Spider or two assigned to them, monitoring their communications for the duration of the mission.

Now, if the Military runs their own Grid, then surely they have their own demiGOD dedicated to policing that Grid. However, I suspect that Military Grids are actually unaffiliated with GOD proper - after all, they're not part of the Corporate Council or subject to its wishes, nor are they using corporate infrastructure.

Since the point of a military grid is to provide communications to the military in question while preventing non-authorized personnel from gaining access, I imagine a Military Grid has much less forgiving protocols than ordinary Corporate Grids intended for everyday consumer Matrix connectivity. This would translate to either an increased gain rate for Overwatch Score, or a lower threshold for Convergance, or possibly both.

So let's start connecting the dots, pluggin in numbers, and seeing how this concept works.

Grunt Greg and the rest of his squad reach their destination and engage the enemy forces at the supply depot. The enemy returns fire, but also starts trying to cut off their communications. Naturally they have a few options for doing this.

1) The enemy can directly hack the individual commlinks and other devices that Grunt Greg and his squad are each carrying.
2) The enemy can instead hack the circling AWACS - assuming they can manage to detect it, as well as manage the difficult hack.
3) The enemy can deploy Jammers (hopefully Military Grade with very high Ratings) against Greg's squad, drowning them in Noise.
4) The enemy can shoot down the AWACS - again assuming they can manage to detect it, as well as hit it with something.

Since Grunt Greg and his allies are on their military's own private Grid, any hack attemps made against them from a different Grid suffer the standard -2 dice. (In fact, since Military Grids probably are independent from GOD and probably have their own custom Overwatch Score settings, they also probably have their own more restrictive custom penalties for unauthorized access. Maybe -4 dice? Maybe -6?)

The enemy hacker doesn't like the sound of operating at a hefty penalty, so they instead decide to Hack on the Fly in order to change Grids, gaining illegitimate access to Greg's Military Grid. A normal Local Grid defends against such an act with 4 dice, but this isn't a "normal" Grid: it's Milspec, and that means just like the beefed up Overwatch Score accumulation, reduced Convergence threshold, and increased off-grid penalty, getting Hack on the Fly access is harder too. Maybe the Military Grid rolls 6 dice to defend itself. Maybe it rolls 8. Who knows.

Whatever the case, the enemy hacker gets lucky and manages to fake access and hop onto the Military Grid. The cost is high, however, as they were going up against an increased defense pool which scored more hits than your average Grid would. On a normal Grid, your OS increases by 1 for every hit a target gets on their defense tests. On a Military Grid, maybe your OS increases by 2 for every hit, or even 3 or 4.

So in this case, with the Military Grid rolling 8 dice and getting a pretty average roll of 3 hits, that gets multiplied by.. hrm... let's say 3... and the enemy hacker is already at an OS of 9, just for changing grids. Of course, now that they have access to the Military Grid, they can avoid dealing with that pesky off-grid penalty to their actions, so it might be worth it.

The enemy hacker decides to go for the (comparatively) simple route and attempts to hack Grunt Greg's PAN via his commlink, hoping to gain access and wreak havoc with his gear. Greg's busy shooting his gun, and his squad's remote Spiders are busy handling an attempted intrusion from one of the enemy team's other hackers, so Greg's commlink will have to fend for itself. The enemy hacker decides to try for two Marks and rolls to Hack on the Fly.

The Milspec Firewall on Greg's commlink puts up a valiant fight, but the enemy hacker manages to get through - although not before Greg's Firewall gets 4 hits, raising their OS by another 12 points. The enemy hacker is now up to a total OS of 21, over halfway to Convergence - they'll have to work quickly before the Military Grid's demiGOD brings the hammer down!

Of course, maybe Military Grid's have a lower Convergence threshold. Maybe instead of 40 points, you only have to rack up 30. Although, with Milspec devices and programs typically being higher Rating than others, that already means they'll typically score more hits on defense rolls, which means a Hacker's OS will already be rising more quickly than normal. Having a multiplier on OS accumulation might be too harsh, especially if you also combine that with a reduced Convergence threshold. Naturally the numbers would need to be looked at in detail, but you could tweak it in various ways to strike a proper balance.

Overall, I don't really see the problem with Militaries using the extant system, so long as they operate their own Grids independent of GOD and have better gear and more punishing restrictions than than is normal for Matrix work.

~Umi

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

The idea is sound, but increasing the penalty of off-grid hacking AND increasing the amount of dice to hack on the fly AND increasing the amount of OS gained for hits AND reducing the convergency score seems like a lot too me. 1 or 2 of these things being changed I think is reasonable, all of these seems too far fetched (military are as much about at cutting costs as the corps)...

[Happy Trees]

I imagine militaries would also employ physical countermeasures, such as narrow-beam Line-of-sight systems whenever possible.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's bullshit though. Without communication the rebels would be at a complete tactical disadvantage and would never win, and only hope for a war of attrition with gorilla tactics. While the opposition has complete, if slightly noisy, Matrix control. They'll be able to have coordinated attacks, drones, sensors, maybe a tac-net assuming we get rules for that, wireless boni on their gear, and other things that wireless communications can help with.

And thinking it over, even if an RCC couldn't help cut a teams noise down (which I say it can), the highest rating commlink is rating 7. Meaning the highest rating 6 jammer can't jam it.

You do realize that the Tactical Disadvantage you think exists really doesn't right? You can communicate effectively and completely with a Micro-Transceiver, and do so without ever once pinging on the Matrix. And in fact is the ideal method to communicate since it completely removes the Decker's effectiveness, especially if you do go the low-tech route and completely disable all Matrix connections prior to any attack (like any good shadowrunner team should do anyways, because, you know, broadcasting in the middle of a Zero Zone is such good business for remaining undetected).

EDIT: OOoops, already addressed. My bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Jaid]

If you're going to spend a few hundred thousand nuyen to cyber up your commandoes, why would you not spend 8,000 nuyen to give them a commlink that can't be jammed, and also allows them to have better Matrix defense if something happens to the team's decker.

Noise stacks, just not noise generators. There is only so many bands of communications you can fill before you've filled the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

The micro transceiver has a sub vocal mic, which is device rating 3, so a noise of 3 would shut it down. But since there are no specific rules that say a micro transceiver's sub vocal mic is immune to jamming, the general rule still applies.

You also got to remember that the rt7 is bleeding edge for the private/corp sector.

It's always been a staple of shadowrun that govt military forces and some elite corp forces (less so for corp forces for the same reason corp militaries are usually lesser quality, corps are about cost/benefit more than govts) had access to programs, decks/commlinks, gear, weapons etc at a much higher rating/quality. They wouldn't b running around with te fairlight, but the specialized version made in small batches and custom ordered for a higher cost and with a much higher rating.

rating 6 devices are considered bleeding-edge, with typical examples including "Billion-nuyen experimental devices, space craft"

so, no, i don't think there are mass-produced versions of rating 7 commlinks that you can outfit entire armies with. frankly, i think it was a mistake to even make a rating 7 commlink available, considering how silly it looks next to the information about what kinds of devices have a given rating.

the kinds of things that have device rating 6 tells me that neither the corps nor the military are going to be outfitting their soldiers with them. because if a single soldier was worth DR 7, then you can bet they'd have something better than that on a passenger airplane that costs millions of nuyen and similar other expensive things.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

rating 6 devices are considered bleeding-edge, with typical examples including "Billion-nuyen experimental devices, space craft"

so, no, i don't think there are mass-produced versions of rating 7 commlinks that you can outfit entire armies with. frankly, i think it was a mistake to even make a rating 7 commlink available, considering how silly it looks next to the information about what kinds of devices have a given rating.

the kinds of things that have device rating 6 tells me that neither the corps nor the military are going to be outfitting their soldiers with them. because if a single soldier was worth DR 7, then you can bet they'd have something better than that on a passenger airplane that costs millions of nuyen and similar other expensive things.

And yet, 8000 Nuyen on a communications device for a grunt is peanuts compared to the cost of the rest of their training and gear. I could see it in a heartbeat. This only goes to show that the Developers do not really have a grasp of the content they are creating.

And, much like SR4A, I fully expect to eventually see electronics that will exceed the Rating 6 Barrier.

[psychophipps]

And yet, 8000 Nuyen on a communications device for a grunt is peanuts compared to the cost of the rest of their training and gear. I could see it in a heartbeat. This only goes to show that the Developers do not really have a grasp of the content they are creating.

And, much like SR4A, I fully expect to eventually see electronics that will exceed the Rating 6 Barrier.

Shiiit, SEAL 6 and the D-boys wish their comms gear only ran $8000 a unit....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Shiiit, SEAL 6 and the D-boys wish their comms gear only ran $8000 a unit....

Which is my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The Crypto Gear I carried in the 1st Gulf War ran more than that, all by itself.

[Drace]

rating 6 devices are considered bleeding-edge, with typical examples including "Billion-nuyen experimental devices, space craft"

so, no, i don't think there are mass-produced versions of rating 7 commlinks that you can outfit entire armies with. frankly, i think it was a mistake to even make a rating 7 commlink available, considering how silly it looks next to the information about what kinds of devices have a given rating.

the kinds of things that have device rating 6 tells me that neither the corps nor the military are going to be outfitting their soldiers with them. because if a single soldier was worth DR 7, then you can bet they'd have something better than that on a passenger airplane that costs millions of nuyen and similar other expensive things.

Several things I want to point out.

1) te ratings in the boom you are talking about are for devices that AREN'T commlinks or Cyberdeck. Those are ratings for devices with primary functions other than matrix connectivity. It's the ratings for tanks, chocolate bars, guns and steel beams (who yes are wireless enabled in sr5, the bonus is +1 to structure and integrity reports to owner (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). The devices that have a main purpose and are wireless enable able. Comms and decks are primarily devices for matrix usage and would be much stronger ad have higher ratings by any sense of logic.

2) when looking at the costs for a rating 7 Commlink, it's 8k. Easily in the mass producible range for corporations making tens of billions a quarter if they're unlucky, and if there is a demand, which for that price there easily would be. Te money that goes into training a soldier out weights the cost of equipping them in nearly every modern country.

3) the airplane argument is tied to my first point. Airplanes are meant to fly. Commlinks are meant to acces the matrix. Different purposes entirely and therefore not ridiculous in te least. The money that goes into the cost of making said airplane isn't going to be going into its connectivity (which dr is a measurement of) but in making the plane not a falling death trap.

[Jaid]

a plane losing the ability to communicate is in many cases turning it into a flying death trap, which is only marginally better than a falling death trap.

if boeing could spend 20,000 bucks to make a 747 pretty much always able to communicate without a problem, do you think they would hesitate for even a second to spend that money, when so much of airplane safety is based on clear communication with various navigational aids and with the air traffic control tower?

if nobody cares enough to spend a flat one-time fee of 8,000 nuyen to protect an airplane that costs millions of nuyen from crashing, nobody cares enough to spend a flat one-time fee of 8,000 nuyen to protect a soldier that is considerably more able to function when denied wireless connectivity.

particularly when said wireless connectivity essentially removes your ability to hide.

[binarywraith]

I'm actually curious what kind of suicidal idiots get in planes in the SR5 universe. After all, all it would take is one good decker...

[Umidori]

You're assuming that all planes can be Rigged, or that they accept some form of remote control. It's far more likely that most planes (at least airliners and whatnot) operate how they do today - manual controls for fine detail work, with an autoPilot program for the majority of the workaday stuff.

Not every device ever made grants full and complete access to every facet of it's systems via wireless link. If you Hack a commlink, you can't magically make it eject it's batteries, for example. Likewise if you hack a plane, all you can probably do is turn off the guidance systems or muck with the autopilot, at which point the actual pilots will take over manually.

~Umi

[Happy Trees]

If you Hack a commlink, you can't magically make it eject it's batteries, for example.

You can if it has a command function for that. Just like you can hack a smartgun and make it eject its magazine.

[RHat]

You can if it has a command function for that. Just like you can hack a smartgun and make it eject its magazine.

I believe his point could be interpreted as "there are not command functions for certain things".

Frankly, I expect planes probably have some sort of Manual Control Override anyways, just in case they get hacked or something. Just because we don't have the rules for it yet doesn't mean it can't exist in-setting - especially when it's already existed in previous editions.

[psychophipps]

To be honest, trying to immediately crash the plane is dumb for the aforementioned reasons. Hacking the autonav system to subtly change the planes course over time, however, has all sorts of fun possibilities. Remember, most cockpits have full AR suites, if not DNI VR, that pilots use for their pre-flight checklists, constant navigation updates, fuel checks and tank switching for in-flight balance control, etc. If you can spoof the external cameras, you can make the plane do nighttime one-gee maneuvers all damn day long and nobody on board without an auto-gyro system or something similar will know anything is amiss. I can't even tell you how many pilots have died while tapping their instruments thinking they were fucking up when they were really telling the pilot, "Homie, you best be paying attention to me because you're about to fucking die."

[Happy Trees]

Frankly, I expect planes probably have some sort of Manual Control Override anyways, just in case they get hacked or something. Just because we don't have the rules for it yet doesn't mean it can't exist in-setting - especially when it's already existed in previous editions.

In my game, I imagine that pilots (at least commercial ones) are riggers and they are required to be manually jacked in while flying. This would prevent a hacker from simply taking over.

[binarywraith]

You're assuming that all planes can be Rigged, or that they accept some form of remote control. It's far more likely that most planes (at least airliners and whatnot) operate how they do today - manual controls for fine detail work, with an autoPilot program for the majority of the workaday stuff.

Not every device ever made grants full and complete access to every facet of it's systems via wireless link. If you Hack a commlink, you can't magically make it eject it's batteries, for example. Likewise if you hack a plane, all you can probably do is turn off the guidance systems or muck with the autopilot, at which point the actual pilots will take over manually.

~Umi

You don't need to control it, just brick it. After all, what works on a sammy's nervous system should work any pretty much any other functioning device.

Be kinda fun to watch an airplane when the navigation systems and autopilot cease functioning in a 'never non-dramatic' manner!

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Be kinda fun to watch an airplane when the navigation systems and autopilot cease functioning in a 'never non-dramatic' manner!

The nav-system and autopilot would show up blue screen of death and auto-format c: but the manual control would still work.
Sure, a pilot could have trouble flying at night over an ocean, but if enough fuel was given, he could navigate through the stars and find land...

[SpellBinder]

You're assuming that the pilots of the 2070's know how to navigate in such an old fashioned and outdated way, or that aircraft have a form of "manual control override" that'll work in the eventuality that the aircraft's whole electrical system is now a Roman candle.

[Drace]

Or they could be flown by jacked in riggers who have all the sensors ect linked to them and the only wireless being th communication devices to the outside world. Kinda like how PC vehicles are done. Otherwise it just seems ridiculously stupid on the companies part.

And not like "let's cuts corners and save money and if crap happens whoops" stupid.

More like "let's give winter night some nukes, bugs equal rights and only elect lobotomies politicians and corp execs" stupid.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

You're assuming that the pilots of the 2070's know how to navigate in such an old fashioned and outdated way, or that aircraft have a form of "manual control override" that'll work in the eventuality that the aircraft's whole electrical system is now a Roman candle.

And why wouldn't they?
About learning to navigate through the stars, might seem far fetched, maybe, I don't know, I really don't see any reason why wouldn't they know about this and about the manual override what kind of vehicle doesn't have such a thing?
I have yet to see mankind dumbing down that hard not to make a manual override inside a vehicle..

[SpellBinder]

With it an option as a vehicle mod in Arsenal for SR4, I'd think it's safe to say that humanity in the 2070's has dumbed that far down. So far, only motorcycles come with a manual override standard.

And with the prevalence of GPS in every commlink, who needs to know how to find Polaris when you've got a mapsoft that'll guide you to the nearest StufferShack.

[Jaid]

Or they could be flown by jacked in riggers who have all the sensors ect linked to them and the only wireless being th communication devices to the outside world. Kinda like how PC vehicles are done. Otherwise it just seems ridiculously stupid on the companies part.

And not like "let's cuts corners and save money and if crap happens whoops" stupid.

More like "let's give winter night some nukes, bugs equal rights and only elect lobotomies politicians and corp execs" stupid.

i'm not sure what you think PC vehicles are like, but unless you specifically rip out all the extras, PC vehicles are just as vulnerable to being bricked as PC commlinks.

[Umidori]

The major problem I have with the concept of "bricking" an aircraft is that it's just not how aircraft are BUILT. There isn't one single master control computer managing everything that you could conceivably destroy.

Most of the controls in aircraft are technically "manual", even if they aren't "analog". You have wires running through the craft which control various devices, but they'll all only accessible via knobs and levers and buttons in the cockpit. Air Traffic Control can't send out a signal to a plane to tell it where to go, or tell it to deploy landing gear, or tell it to dump its fuel, or really tell it to do much of anything. They can instruct the pilots about what to do, or if the pilots are incapacitated they can direct a brave passenger on how to fly, but they can't fly the damn thing themselves remotely. Someone on-board is always going to have to do the steering - be it a human or the onboard autoPilot Program.

The only parts of a commercial aircraft that rely upon "wireless connections" are the actual two-way radio system, and select weather and navigation systems. So sure, you could knock out radio communications, and you could stop the plane from receiving accurate weather information and GPS positioning, but everything else works like normal, because none of it has any connection to "wireless signals".

I can see why bricking a smartgun is feasible - the smartgun system is doing more than just projecting firing angles into your field of view, it also has direct control of the weapon's loading and chambering and firing mechanisms and whatnot. If you brick a device, you also brick the components that the device controls, hence why you can no longer operate the weapon.

But anything the bricked device doesn't directly control isn't affected. If your smartgun gets bricked, but the flashlight on the underbarrel mount isn't wired into the smartgun system, the flashlight still works.

There's simply no reason for an aircraft to have anything vital to its basic operations connected to the Matrix. An onboard pilot program with preloaded navigational data can find its own way through the sky without any trouble at all, and any changes or corrections that need to be made can be done by the pilots. Making it so any idiot with a wireless connection can muck with the plane is like making it so any idiot with a garage door opener can extend or retract the landing gear of a passing jet.

Cars are a different matter. Their basic control systems are designed for remote wireless control because that's considered to be a consumer feature - remember, most people want to be able to communicate with the GridGuide system. Sure, they could drive the car themselves if they wanted, or simply let the built in Pilot Program drive it for them if they didn't - in both cases requiring absolutely zero wireless connectivity - but they connect to the Grid because doing so has the benefit of powering their vehicles for them electrically, meaning they don't have to use gas or waste battery charge.

~Umi

[Drace]

The major problem I have with the concept of "bricking" an aircraft is that it's just not how aircraft are BUILT. There isn't one single master control computer managing everything that you could conceivably destroy.

Most of the controls in aircraft are technically "manual", even if they aren't "analog". You have wires running through the craft which control various devices, but they'll all only accessible via knobs and levers and buttons in the cockpit. Air Traffic Control can't send out a signal to a plane to tell it where to go, or tell it to deploy landing gear, or tell it to dump its fuel, or really tell it to do much of anything. They can instruct the pilots about what to do, or if the pilots are incapacitated they can direct a brave passenger on how to fly, but they can't fly the damn thing themselves remotely. Someone on-board is always going to have to do the steering - be it a human or the onboard autoPilot Program.

The only parts of a commercial aircraft that rely upon "wireless connections" are the actual two-way radio system, and select weather and navigation systems. So sure, you could knock out radio communications, and you could stop the plane from receiving accurate weather information and GPS positioning, but everything else works like normal, because none of it has any connection to "wireless signals".

I can see why bricking a smartgun is feasible - the smartgun system is doing more than just projecting firing angles into your field of view, it also has direct control of the weapon's loading and chambering and firing mechanisms and whatnot. If you brick a device, you also brick the components that the device controls, hence why you can no longer operate the weapon.

But anything the bricked device doesn't directly control isn't affected. If your smartgun gets bricked, but the flashlight on the underbarrel mount isn't wired into the smartgun system, the flashlight still works.

There's simply no reason for an aircraft to have anything vital to its basic operations connected to the Matrix. An onboard pilot program with preloaded navigational data can find its own way through the sky without any trouble at all, and any changes or corrections that need to be made can be done by the pilots. Making it so any idiot with a wireless connection can muck with the plane is like making it so any idiot with a garage door opener can extend or retract the landing gear of a passing jet.

Cars are a different matter. Their basic control systems are designed for remote wireless control because that's considered to be a consumer feature - remember, most people want to be able to communicate with the GridGuide system. Sure, they could drive the car themselves if they wanted, or simply let the built in Pilot Program drive it for them if they didn't - in both cases requiring absolutely zero wireless connectivity - but they connect to the Grid because doing so has the benefit of powering their vehicles for them electrically, meaning they don't have to use gas or waste battery charge.

~Umi

^this was what I was unelegently trying to say in my own poor words. When I said PC vehicles I meant their aircraft.

[binarywraith]

The major problem I have with the concept of "bricking" an aircraft is that it's just not how aircraft are BUILT. There isn't one single master control computer managing everything that you could conceivably destroy.

Most of the controls in aircraft are technically "manual", even if they aren't "analog". You have wires running through the craft which control various devices, but they'll all only accessible via knobs and levers and buttons in the cockpit. Air Traffic Control can't send out a signal to a plane to tell it where to go, or tell it to deploy landing gear, or tell it to dump its fuel, or really tell it to do much of anything. They can instruct the pilots about what to do, or if the pilots are incapacitated they can direct a brave passenger on how to fly, but they can't fly the damn thing themselves remotely. Someone on-board is always going to have to do the steering - be it a human or the onboard autoPilot Program.

The only parts of a commercial aircraft that rely upon "wireless connections" are the actual two-way radio system, and select weather and navigation systems. So sure, you could knock out radio communications, and you could stop the plane from receiving accurate weather information and GPS positioning, but everything else works like normal, because none of it has any connection to "wireless signals".

I can see why bricking a smartgun is feasible - the smartgun system is doing more than just projecting firing angles into your field of view, it also has direct control of the weapon's loading and chambering and firing mechanisms and whatnot. If you brick a device, you also brick the components that the device controls, hence why you can no longer operate the weapon.

But anything the bricked device doesn't directly control isn't affected. If your smartgun gets bricked, but the flashlight on the underbarrel mount isn't wired into the smartgun system, the flashlight still works.

There's simply no reason for an aircraft to have anything vital to its basic operations connected to the Matrix. An onboard pilot program with preloaded navigational data can find its own way through the sky without any trouble at all, and any changes or corrections that need to be made can be done by the pilots. Making it so any idiot with a wireless connection can muck with the plane is like making it so any idiot with a garage door opener can extend or retract the landing gear of a passing jet.

Cars are a different matter. Their basic control systems are designed for remote wireless control because that's considered to be a consumer feature - remember, most people want to be able to communicate with the GridGuide system. Sure, they could drive the car themselves if they wanted, or simply let the built in Pilot Program drive it for them if they didn't - in both cases requiring absolutely zero wireless connectivity - but they connect to the Grid because doing so has the benefit of powering their vehicles for them electrically, meaning they don't have to use gas or waste battery charge.

~Umi

Unfortunately the bricking rules have absolutely nothing to do with how the tech would actually work, as seen by how they work on cyberware. There is absolutely no reason your wired reflexes need to be online, and zero reason they should accept self-destructive signals from the outside, and making it so any idiot with a wireless connection can muck about with your nervous system is deeply dumb. However, that's what the system is predicated on, and why it causes majorly bad implications for the entire game world.

That plane is, by necessity, going to be online. IFF, aircraft control, and monitoring require it. Given how the rules work, that means it is going to be inherently vulnerable, albeit likely well protected. However, it won't be too protected, simply because the costs of doing so would make commercial air travel impossibly expensive.

Catch 22, neh?

[Jaid]

that's what aircraft are like today.

in shadowrun, people are dumb enough to think it's a good idea to connect your spinal cord or your arm to the matrix by default, and there's no good reason for either of those things to be wireless either.

if the question was about what i would use for my houserules, then certainly i would give a different answer. as it stands, people in the shadowrun universe are complete and utter morons who believe that not only should everything be connected to the matrix, but that it's a good idea to arbitrarily make a portion of every device's function completely dependant on being connected to the matrix instead of just building the device to handle all the stuff it should do by itself in the first place.

though to be fair, in-universe connecting things to the matrix appears to enable time travel, so...

aircraft wireless bonus: the aircraft arrives at it's destination before it even lifts off.

[RHat]

Unfortunately the bricking rules have absolutely nothing to do with how the tech would actually work, as seen by how they work on cyberware. There is absolutely no reason your wired reflexes need to be online, and zero reason they should accept self-destructive signals from the outside, and making it so any idiot with a wireless connection can muck about with your nervous system is deeply dumb. However, that's what the system is predicated on, and why it causes majorly bad implications for the entire game world.

That plane is, by necessity, going to be online. IFF, aircraft control, and monitoring require it. Given how the rules work, that means it is going to be inherently vulnerable, albeit likely well protected. However, it won't be too protected, simply because the costs of doing so would make commercial air travel impossibly expensive.

Catch 22, neh?

However, based on the text for what happens when you brick a rotodrone, it's fair to assume that the plane doesn't simply crash.

[Umidori]

in shadowrun 5E, people are dumb enough to...

Fixed that for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Seriously, Bricking as a concept and as a game mechanics is fine - but it needs to be limited to things that are actually based on wireless control.

~Umi

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

that's what aircraft are like today.

in shadowrun, people are dumb enough to think it's a good idea to connect your spinal cord or your arm to the matrix by default, and there's no good reason for either of those things to be wireless either.

Just because it has the feature, doesn't mean everyone will use it.
I mean, it's like saying that just because anyone could let their smart phones with open access to anyone pinging them, it doesn't mean every one would let that happen...

[DMiller]

aircraft wireless bonus: the aircraft arrives at it's destination before it even lifts off.

That happen to me every time I go home for a visit... And I haven't flown on a plane with wireless enabled yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

However, based on the text for what happens when you brick a rotodrone, it's fair to assume that the plane doesn't simply crash.

A Rotodrone can auto-rotate, and a Glider can Glide. A Large Passenger Liner without propulsion does not glide all that well, and it does not auto-rotate at all. Ergo... Crash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[RHat]

A Rotodrone can auto-rotate, and a Glider can Glide. A Passenger Liner without propulsion does not glide all that well, and it does not auto-rotate at all. Ergo... Crash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Actually, passenger aircraft have been known to glide in cases of engine failure, from my understanding. Their lift is generated from forward motion, after all.

[Jaid]

Just because it has the feature, doesn't mean everyone will use it.
I mean, it's like saying that just because anyone could let their smart phones with open access to anyone pinging them, it doesn't mean every one would let that happen...

devices that have no legitimate use outside of fields where stealth and a lack of exploitable vulnerabilities are of utmost importance are designed to require the matrix to access their full features. what makes you think the rocket scientists who design aircraft are not just as dumb as the brain surgeons who design the cyberware?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, passenger aircraft have been known to glide in cases of engine failure, from my understanding. Their lift is generated from forward motion, after all.

They do not glide well enough to not come apart when they hit the ground, however. But you are right, they do have a VERY minimal glide profile, just not one good enough to actually survive impact, at least not very well. All depends upon how far up they are when they lose those engines, and what they are trying to land upon.

[Umidori]

A Rotodrone can auto-rotate, and a Glider can Glide. A Large Passenger Liner without propulsion does not glide all that well, and it does not auto-rotate at all. Ergo... Crash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Why the frag would the plane lose propulsion? It's not even remotely imaginable. There isn't a wireless command which turns the planes engines on and off. The engines are in no way connected with the part of the system a Hacker could "brick".

People don't build planes that way. There is zero reason to build a plane that way.

"But devices can be bricked, ergo any 'device' which has a wireless connection can be disabled in its entirety, affecting every portion of it equally!"

No. We went over this. If you brick a pistol's smartgun system, it doesn't cause the separate underbarrel flashlight to stop working (unless you wired the two together and gave the smartgun system control over the flashlight for some reason). If you brick a plane's commlink, it doesn't cause the separate engine systems to stop working.

The Corporations aren't stupid. They may not care about Average Joe having his every personal device vulnerable to wireless attack, but they damn sure are gonna care about their own gear. They don't leave their vital information in non-isolated computer systems, and they don't give wirless access to every single vital system of an airplane packed full of hundreds of wrongful death lawsuits waiting to happen. I don't see how any sane player or GM could argue otherwise.

~Umi

[Smash]

You guys and your reality tangents. Seriously..........

What's an airliner worth $300,000,000? If there is a threat of hackers then this is going to be protected in the highest possible way. Why can't the pilot be a decker with the best deck (maybe it's built into the plane? Maybe the friggin plane is for all intensive purposes a deck), approaching pretty good skills? 7+ in their skills and stats? An aircraft of this value probably has a device rating of 6 and would be slaved to the deck and the pilot probably has at least a control rig rating 1 or higher, therefore it would be immune to control device actions, unless it is hijacked.

Planes are probably way more efficient that now, carry more passengers and have more streamlined procedures, so paying a pilot a lot more is probably not that much of a big deal.

Or alternatively, this could not be a realistic threat and deckers tend to not go around painting targets on their own ilk by doing stupid shit like crashing planes on regular occurances and as such, the airlines don't need to be paranoid, which I think is meant to be the status quo in 2075.

Maybe planes are like credstick? Awesome matrix magic just makes them unhackable?

There's 3 completely workable solutions to this non-problem.

[Jaid]

Why the frag would the plane lose propulsion? It's not even remotely imaginable. There isn't a wireless command which turns the planes engines on and off. The engines are in no way connected with the part of the system a Hacker could "brick".

People don't build planes that way. There is zero reason to build a plane that way.

"But devices can be bricked, ergo any 'device' which has a wireless connection can be disabled in its entirety, affecting every portion of it equally!"

No. We went over this. If you brick a pistol's smartgun system, it doesn't cause the separate underbarrel flashlight to stop working (unless you wired the two together and gave the smartgun system control over the flashlight for some reason). If you brick a plane's commlink, it doesn't cause the separate engine systems to stop working.

The Corporations aren't stupid. They may not care about Average Joe having his every personal device vulnerable to wireless attack, but they damn sure are gonna care about their own gear. They don't leave their vital information in non-isolated computer systems, and they don't give wirless access to every single vital system of an airplane packed full of hundreds of wrongful death lawsuits waiting to happen. I don't see how any sane player or GM could argue otherwise.

~Umi

people don't build *guns* that way, either, and there is zero reason to build guns that way.

people especially don't build black ops gear that way, and there is no reason to build black ops gear that way.

what makes you think airplanes are so special?

[binarywraith]

However, based on the text for what happens when you brick a rotodrone, it's fair to assume that the plane doesn't simply crash.

Rotary wing aircraft do not 'simply crash' when unpowered because of the physics behind how they generate lift in the first place. Especially in something as small and relatively light as a drone, which will have significant air resistance compared to it's size when falling. This has absolutely no bearing on a passenger jet liner, which can only create meaningful amounts of lift via massive forward thrust.

Why the frag would the plane lose propulsion? It's not even remotely imaginable. There isn't a wireless command which turns the planes engines on and off. The engines are in no way connected with the part of the system a Hacker could "brick".

People don't build planes that way. There is zero reason to build a plane that way.

"But devices can be bricked, ergo any 'device' which has a wireless connection can be disabled in its entirety, affecting every portion of it equally!"

No. We went over this. If you brick a pistol's smartgun system, it doesn't cause the separate underbarrel flashlight to stop working (unless you wired the two together and gave the smartgun system control over the flashlight for some reason). If you brick a plane's commlink, it doesn't cause the separate engine systems to stop working.

The Corporations aren't stupid. They may not care about Average Joe having his every personal device vulnerable to wireless attack, but they damn sure are gonna care about their own gear. They don't leave their vital information in non-isolated computer systems, and they don't give wirless access to every single vital system of an airplane packed full of hundreds of wrongful death lawsuits waiting to happen. I don't see how any sane player or GM could argue otherwise.

~Umi

If the Matrix Condition Monitor of a device is completely
filled, the device ceases functioning. This is
called bricking a device. Devices that are bricked never
fail non-spectacularly. Smoke, sparks, pops, bangs, sizzles,
nasty smells, and occasionally even small fires are
common features of a device in the process of becoming
a brick. If you’re using your deck in VR when it gets
bricked, you are dumped from the Matrix and suffer
dumpshock (see p. 229). A bricked device is damaged
and useless until it is repaired (described in the next bit,
Repairing Matrix Damage).
If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries
are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed
up with melted internals, and so on. That said, not all
devices are completely useless when bricked. A vibrosword
is still sharp, a roto-drone glides to the ground
on auto-gyro, a lock stays locked. The firing pin on an
assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just
fine for stabbing smug hackers. And you can’t exactly
brick a katana, ne? And don’t panic when your trickedout
combat bike gets bricked; it will ride again … if you
know a competent technician.

Note that even the rules on bricking explicitly bring up that it works on 'your trickedout combat bike', which has absolutely no reason to have any vital components besides nav be Matrix connected, yet it is clearly brickable. Planes, trains, and automobiles, chummer. It's right there in hardcopy.

[RHat]

Rotary wing aircraft do not 'simply crash' when unpowered because of the physics behind how they generate lift in the first place. Especially in something as small and relatively light as a drone, which will have significant air resistance compared to it's size when falling. This has absolutely no bearing on a passenger jet liner, which can only create meaningful amounts of lift via massive forward thrust.

And, equally, a passenger aircraft doesn't "just crash' due to the physics in how IT generates lift, at least by my understanding. Whether a fixed-wing aircraft of a 2070's design and construction could safely land is a different question, certainly, but they're not simply going to drop out of the air. Their forward momentum doesn't simply vanish on bricking - physics doesn't work that way.

[binarywraith]

And, equally, a passenger aircraft doesn't "just crash' due to the physics in how IT generates lift, at least by my understanding. Whether a fixed-wing aircraft of a 2070's design and construction could safely land is a different question, certainly, but they're not simply going to drop out of the air. Their forward momentum doesn't simply vanish on bricking - physics doesn't work that way.

Of course they're not going to 'just drop out of the air'. What kind of idiocy is that?

They're going to be incredibly expensive lawn darts on roughly parabolic arcs instead! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[RHat]

Of course they're not going to 'just drop out of the air'. What kind of idiocy is that?

They're going to be incredibly expensive lawn darts instead! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Isn't there some method by which a pilot can descend to pick up speed, and then level off, in order to control the glide? Seem to remember reading about something of the sort.

[binarywraith]

Isn't there some method by which a pilot can descend to pick up speed, and then level off, in order to control the glide? Seem to remember reading about something of the sort.

Sure, and more than likely they can make a rough belly landing on the flattest piece of terrain the pilot can get to, assuming that his controls have not also been bricked. Since, as we know from the rules, even simple mechanical parts of a bricked device like the firing pin on an assault rifle stop functioning if the device is bricked.

[RHat]

Sure, and more than likely they can make a rough belly landing on the flattest piece of terrain the pilot can get to, assuming that his controls have not also been bricked. Since, as we know from the rules, even simple mechanical parts of a bricked device like the firing pin on an assault rifle stop functioning if the device is bricked.

If we don't assume the existence of something like Manual Control Override to get around this, which seems like an entirely reasonable assumption. And after the events of Storm Front, you can bet that any planes that didn't have them would have been retrofitted.

[Jaid]

If we don't assume the existence of something like Manual Control Override to get around this, which seems like an entirely reasonable assumption. And after the events of Storm Front, you can bet that any planes that didn't have them would have been retrofitted.

what, you mean just like after 2 complete collapses of the matrix that caused probably trillions of nuyen in damage and killed millions if not hundreds of millions (or perhaps even billions) of people, nobody would ever be stupid enough to build everything in the world to require a matrix connection in order to function fully?

why do the people who design aircraft get to not be complete and utter morons when the people who build every other thing in the setting are?

[RHat]

what, you mean just like after 2 complete collapses of the matrix that caused probably trillions of nuyen in damage and killed millions if not hundreds of millions (or perhaps even billions) of people, nobody would ever be stupid enough to build everything in the world to require a matrix connection in order to function fully?

why do the people who design aircraft get to not be complete and utter morons when the people who build every other thing in the setting are?

Actually, I'm referring to the part where the nanopocalypse caused planes to fall out of the sky like bricks. Though that may have involved actual gumming of the mechanics, too. In any case, they'd have done SOMETHING to be able to say it couldn't happen again.

And in a near perfectly secure Matrix - it does the work for them, and only some pretty freaking above-average people have a shot at hacking it, and even then only with some damned expensive equipment - it's quite believable that people might think it's secure enough. Especially if planes are slaved up to traffic control hosts prior to takeoff.

[psychophipps]

Aircraft, particularly the engines, are well-known to be...finicky...about their internal workings slowly being turned into nanomush.

[Umidori]

Actually, people do build guns that way.

Right this second, we have robotic weapons that are remotely controlled via wireless command. The weapons are designed to accept certain remote commands which direct them to automatically perform certain actions, such as chambering rounds and firing them. Why are they designed to do this? Because they operate remotely, without a pilot or gunner present to pull manually perform those tasks.

Now, would it be a stupid idea to employ this sort of system on a handgun rather than a mounted vehicle weapon, essentially turning it into a handheld drone? Probably. Would it smarter and safer to transfer any digital signals you want to send to the weapon via cables rather than over radio waves? Abso-fraggin-lutely. But if you want to operate a device remotely, you don't really have a choice.

So why would the Corps make personal weapons like handguns that can be remotely controlled? Well, for control, you see.

If they give Guard Greg a heavy pistol and one day at work his mind finally snaps and he tries to blow away the assistant manager, they have the power to wirelessly disable the gun. If he tries to take it off-site, they can detect that and put a stop to it. If he loads unauthorized ammunition, the gun automatically reports the breach of protocol. Even if he just has it out of his holster and is fooling around with the other guards in the break room, just waving it around and laughing like an idiot, they'll know about it and he'll be having a chat with his supervisor or boss real soon.

If they sell Average Joe a light pistol for home and self defense, they can monitor how he uses it. They can collect data about his shooting style when he practices at the local range, using that information to custom-tailor a slew of AR advertisements just for him. Joe's a terrible shot and uses tons of ammunition, even with his smartgun system? Sell him some fancy new shooting glasses that are supposedly better than his current smartlink, and then offer him "bulk rates" and "special deals" on practice ammo. Joe typically goes to the range on Saturdays? Offer him a "daily special" deal which just so happens to be for Saturdays. Joe suddenly takes his gun with him to work? Remotely lock the workings and notify Knight Errant so they can question him.

So no, there are plenty of reasons to build guns that way.

But you're right - Black Ops gear should NOT be built that way. Neither should aircraft.

Which is why the new system of Wireless Incentives is insane and divorced from all reality, both our own and Shadowrun's. It might be workable if the Wireless Bonuses made any kind of sense, but they entirely operate on Bizarro World logic, so it ends up one giant mess.

And that's also why assuming that just because an airplane is a "device", that means every single aspect of it is vulernable to being hacked simply if mere portions of it (like the navigational system and radio communications) are.

~Umi

[RHat]

If they give Guard Greg a heavy pistol and one day at work his mind finally snaps and he tries to blow away the assistant manager, they have the power to wirelessly disable the gun.

Related: Control Thoughts.

By the way, I've been rolling around ideas for better wireless bonuses in my head... Would it be considered more "worth it" if a wireless smartgun decreased range, visibility, and/or environmental modifiers by a step or two, and helped negate cover modifiers?

[SpellBinder]

More like worth it if you could just skinlink your PAN, cut all signal, and still get the wireless bonuses.

As I understand it, by RAW that's not possible because everything wireless must do cloud computing for the simplest functions and skinlinks simply do not exist.

[Umidori]

Note that even the rules on bricking explicitly bring up that it works on 'your trickedout combat bike', which has absolutely no reason to have any vital components besides nav be Matrix connected, yet it is clearly brickable. Planes, trains, and automobiles, chummer. It's right there in hardcopy.

The problem is that you're treating the entire machine as a part of the 'device', and you're assuming every vehicle is identical and built for wireless access.

A standard bike? You're right, no reason for it to have wireless access. But what if you want to remotely control it, for whatever reason? Someone, somewhere is going to want to be able to turn the ignition on and off, to turn the radio on and off, to apply the brakes and turn the steering column and perform all the physical functions required for the vehicle to operate, and do so remotely.

What I'm arguing is that individual devices have different components which can or cannot be controlled wirelessly. If you make it so you can start your vehicle remotely, then when it gets "bricked" that portion of the vehicle is going to cease functioning. Conversely, if your ignition isn't controlled wirelessly, then bricking the vehicle doesn't break the ignition, because it isn't a function that ist controlled wirelessly. If you make your headlights wireless enabled, they break when the vehicle gets bricked. If the headlights aren't wireless enabled, they don't.

Ya know what? I'm gonna go ahead and coin some new terminology here to clarify things.

We all agree that a vehicle is a "Device". But here's the twist.

Every device is made up of one or more "Subsystems".
A subsystem can be either "Wireless Enabled", or "Wireless Disabled".
Any "Wireless Enabled Subsystem" can be activated and manipulated via wireless command and remote control.
Any "Wireless Disabled Subsystem" cannot, and must be activated manually.
When a Device is Bricked, all "Wireless Enabled Subsystems" cease functioning.
However, any "Wireless Disabled Subsystems" remain undamaged - although those which depend on the functionality of other "bricked" subsystems of course may fail.

So an example.

I have a Ford Americar. It has five main Subsystems.

1) Engine / Ignition
2) Suspension
3) Brakes
4) Navigation / Radio
5) Power Windows / Locks

Of those Subsystems, only the Power Windows / Locks and the Navigation / Radio are "Wirelessly Enabled". So when some script kiddie hooligan hacks my car on the highway, all he has access to are the doors, windows, and the central display for my music and GPS system, which he immediately starts messing with.

Suddenly I'm stuck listening to Faith Hill's latest album blaring at maximum volume over the roar of the highway-speed wind slapping me in the face through the now open windows, and my GPS screen is cheerfully displaying footage of a pair of greased up dwarves having something unspeakable done to them by a Dominatrix. I try to reset my radio and roll up my windows, but no dice. At this point if I chose to kill the engine (which is not under the hacker's control), it would "reboot" the device and everything would return to normal.

Alternatively, if the hacker decided to just brick my car for shits and giggles, my dashboard would explode in a shower of sparks like a Star Trek computer console; my radio would melt; my GPS would catch on fire; the motors of my windows would go berserk, crack the glass, and start spewing plumes of smoke; but everything else would be normal. My brakes would operate just fine, my suspension would be perfectly peachy, and when I pull over to the side of the highway to investigate this strange new calamity, I can easily turn off the engine. If my doors were locked while I was driving I'm stuck inside, because those got bricked, but if I was driving with them unlocked I can still open the doors.

Not all vehicles are the same. Not everyone is going to want their car's Ignition to be radio controlled. Some will, others will not. If we're going to go with this whole risk/reward notion, surely we owe it to ourselves to be intelligent about it? If you want the benefits of being able to control a portion of a device remotely, that portion has to be "Wireless Enabled". If you don't care about those benefits, or you're willing to trade them for more security, then you can "Disable" that remote functionality.

Is this not a sane and reasonable proposal?

~Umi

[Jaid]

again, that only works if the people in the setting are not complete and utter morons.

now, personally, i prefer it a great deal that the people in the setting not be complete and utter morons. but unfortunately, i'm faced with proof, repeatedly, that they are in fact complete and utter morons. and *especially* the people who are in charge of manufacturing anything that would greatly benefit from not requiring the matrix to function at fully capacity.

so, while i would *like* to believe that humanity is not stupid enough to make all 747s remotely controllable and tie every function of the aircraft to the matrix (and even build the aircraft such that it won't function fully without being actively connected to the matrix) just because they can, i am faced with the new edition of shadowrun telling me that they are in fact that stupid. at least, canonically.

of course, in my home games i can decide that they aren't that stupid. but hey, welcome to fifth edition. please check your brain at the door, and replace it with the new matrix-powered version (wireless bonus: you no longer think it's stupid that everything is powered by the matrix).

[RHat]

script kiddie hooligan

I should point out - you can't have skript kiddies in SR5's Matrix.

[Jaid]

I should point out - you can't have skript kiddies in SR5's Matrix.

sure you can. agents can perform most matrix actions, and if anything is even more fitting to be called a script kiddie than someone who at least has the skill.

[RHat]

sure you can. agents can perform most matrix actions, and if anything is even more fitting to be called a script kiddie than someone who at least has the skill.

Fair enough, but an Agent's dice pool caps out at 12 - it's far less than enough for just about anything. But even that's not gonna be at all common, because we're looking at a damn lot of money and some pretty restricted equipment. The basic point is that the risk of hacking for any individual is very, very small, because hackers are going to be a very rare commodity.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Umidori for '76 Presidency (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Of which nation / corp / secret cabal?

Ideally I'd like something where I have more than just token authority, but not so much that I suddenly become a concern of folks like Lofwyr. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(Unless we're talking about the Lofwyr Fan Club. At which point, I think it'd be best for my health if I just accepted unconditionally and got to work planning various parades and events in his honor. I've got this great idea for painting banners with normal paint which reads "We Love Lofwyr!" as well as invisible astral paint which reads "Please don't eat us!")

~Umi

[Lobo0705]

Is this not a sane and reasonable proposal?

I like your proposal a lot.

That said, you are now going to have to create subsystems for each and every type of device, and then have to know which of those is on or off for all players and NPCs.

Not impossible, but a LOT of work.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Of which nation / corp / secret cabal?

Ideally I'd like something where I have more than just token authority, but not so much that I suddenly become a concern of folks like Lofwyr. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(Unless we're talking about the Lofwyr Fan Club. At which point, I think it'd be best for my health if I just accepted unconditionally and got to work planning various parades and events in his honor. I've got this great idea for painting banners with normal paint which reads "We Love Lofwyr!" as well as invisible astral paint which reads "Please don't eat us!")

~Umi

UCAS presidency
but you can be the president of the Lofwyr fan club if you want to, specially if HE wants you to... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

I like your proposal a lot.

That said, you are now going to have to create subsystems for each and every type of device, and then have to know which of those is on or off for all players and NPCs.

Not impossible, but a LOT of work.

No, I really don't think you do need to literally granulate it out in the rules. Just have a note saying something like:

"Players should work with their GMs to decide what features their devices posses as standard, and which of those features they wish to operate as Wireless Enabled. Remember that while any feature which is Wireless Enabled is susceptible to being hacked, not enabling Wireless connectivity for a specific feature means the player themselves cannot use that feature remotely, and must instead control it manually or via a direct digital connection.

For the sake of simplicity, assume that most devices have all of - or at least most of - their various features Wireless Enabled by default. Also note that disabling Wireless connectivity for certain devices and features may require time, effort, tools, and skill. GMs are encouraged to use their best judgement on a case by case basis and to call for Hardware or other other appropriate Technical Skill rolls where appropriate.

So Runner Randy buys a toaster at Stuffer Shack and takes it home. He doesn't like that it's Wireless Enabled, so he tries to turn the Wireless off via the control menu. Unfortunately, being a cheap mass-produced consumer product, it doesn't have a built in option to turn off Wireless, so he has to use his Hardware skill and toolkit to open it up and manually disable the Wireless Access chip.

~Umi

[Happy Trees]

Of which nation / corp / secret cabal?

Ideally I'd like something where I have more than just token authority, but not so much that I suddenly become a concern of folks like Lofwyr. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(Unless we're talking about the Lofwyr Fan Club. At which point, I think it'd be best for my health if I just accepted unconditionally and got to work planning various parades and events in his honor. I've got this great idea for painting banners with normal paint which reads "We Love Lofwyr!" as well as invisible astral paint which reads "Please don't eat us!")

~Umi

This response is now the poster child in support of adding a "like" function.

[Happy Trees]

That said, you are now going to have to create subsystems for each and every type of device, and then have to know which of those is on or off for all players and NPCs.

Not impossible, but a LOT of work.

Not necessarily. Just like random devices have a single device rating, many devices can simply be assumed to be "wireless" or "wired". For instance, it might be that amateur security uses wireless smartguns, but elite security would have a physical wire or touchlink to their smartguns, making the "elite" guns wired-only. Drones might just be entirely wireless, but a plane (especially one pivotal to a game) would have to be built as a series of devices, some wired, some wireless. It's more work than just sticking to the dumb parts of the rules, but the extra work can be mitigated by keeping the rules when inconsequential, and adding the extra work when it's important.

[Lobo0705]

Not necessarily. Just like random devices have a single device rating, many devices can simply be assumed to be "wireless" or "wired". For instance, it might be that amateur security uses wireless smartguns, but elite security would have a physical wire or touchlink to their smartguns, making the "elite" guns wired-only. Drones might just be entirely wireless, but a plane (especially one pivotal to a game) would have to be built as a series of devices, some wired, some wireless. It's more work than just sticking to the dumb parts of the rules, but the extra work can be mitigated by keeping the rules when inconsequential, and adding the extra work when it's important.

And what you just described is a lot of work. In an adventure, I have to:

1) Come up with subsystems for each type of device. (Granted, for many this is a generic category - I can come up with one set of subsystems for basically all weapons, and not one for the Ares Predator and another for the Viper Slivergun)

2) Decide which parts can be shut off easily, and which require a Hardware test.

3) Allow all the players to manually manipulate each individual device that they own and set it however they wish (in some cases requiring a Hardware check)

4) Decide which NPCs will stick to the corporate line, and simply use the device as is, and which ones don't - and for the ones that don't, how do they differ from the corporate line - i.e. which systems they monkey with. Remember that if what you are going for is verisimilitude, what is good for the runners is good for the opposition.

Now, the end result may very well justify all the additional effort - I'm just saying that it adds a lot of overhead.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why the frag would the plane lose propulsion? It's not even remotely imaginable. There isn't a wireless command which turns the planes engines on and off. The engines are in no way connected with the part of the system a Hacker could "brick".

People don't build planes that way. There is zero reason to build a plane that way.

"But devices can be bricked, ergo any 'device' which has a wireless connection can be disabled in its entirety, affecting every portion of it equally!"

No. We went over this. If you brick a pistol's smartgun system, it doesn't cause the separate underbarrel flashlight to stop working (unless you wired the two together and gave the smartgun system control over the flashlight for some reason). If you brick a plane's commlink, it doesn't cause the separate engine systems to stop working.

The Corporations aren't stupid. They may not care about Average Joe having his every personal device vulnerable to wireless attack, but they damn sure are gonna care about their own gear. They don't leave their vital information in non-isolated computer systems, and they don't give wirless access to every single vital system of an airplane packed full of hundreds of wrongful death lawsuits waiting to happen. I don't see how any sane player or GM could argue otherwise.

~Umi

General comment on Bricking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Since the Engines need monitoring by the computer interface of the plane, they would be susceptible in the 2070's... after all, everything is connected and wireless. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If we don't assume the existence of something like Manual Control Override to get around this, which seems like an entirely reasonable assumption. And after the events of Storm Front, you can bet that any planes that didn't have them would have been retrofitted.

But that is the problem, RHAT... we have to ASSUME that the idiocy of being bricked is just that. The rules are pretty clear in that the plane is a lawn dart, barring any common sense ASSUMPTIONS to the contrary. Too bad the Designers of the game did not use that same common sense when creating the rules and instead went with "What sounded cool."

[Umidori]

@Lobo

You don't actually have to come up with subsystems. You just use common sense, and ask your players how they're running their devices.

If they have a Ford Americar, you ask them if they are running it Wireless or not, and which features or subsystems are wired for remote control. If they say the only thing they have it set for is remote Lock / Window access, then that means the only thing they (or an enemy hacker) can mess with via remote is the Locks and Windows. This means their Ignition can't be killed by bricking the vehicle, but by the same token it also means if some street-kid steals the damn thing for a joyride, the Runner can't kill the engine from a distance and they lose their ride.

It's like asking a player if their commlinks are running in Hidden mode, or asking them what type of ammunition they have loaded, or asking them what devices they have connected to their PAN. If they only have one commlink and it is running Hidden, they might get stopped on the street by Knight Errant for walking around without broadcasting a valid SIN. If they load their shotgun with APDS, they might need to switch out their ammunition if they need to shoot someone non-lethally. If they're running a PAN with two dozen devices, their commlink better be up to the task of handling that many subscriptions and they better have enough pockets and places to stash those different objects to boot.

This is all perfectly normal data for the GM to have to be aware of, and the GM is perfectly within their rights to ask a player how they have their gear set up and then hold them to their answers.

If a player has a device bricked, it should only affect the components of that device which are actually wirelessly accessible. As I said, assume most or even all of those components are wirelessly accessible by default if you want, but if the player says "I want to remove wireless access from my smartgun's ammo and firing system, but leave it active for the actual smartlink and gun camera", you as a GM just say "Alright, but remember you won't be able to eject a clip or fire the weapon via wireless command if you do so."

They lose the benefit of wireless functionality for those parts of the gun they disable the wireless for, but they gain the security of knowing that even if the gun gets bricked, all they lose is the video recording and the aiming bonus, leaving the base functionality of the gun itself intact. And if they don't specifically inform you that they disabled the default wireless? Then it never happened, and they are fully vulnerable.

~Umi

[Umidori]

General comment on Bricking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Since the Engines need monitoring by the computer interface of the plane, they would be susceptible in the 2070's... after all, everything is connected and wireless. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

TJ, I get where you're coming from, I get what you're actually trying to say, but I still find it annoying because clearly you and I both agree: the new rules are obviously WRONG - we both know that.

And I get that you're trying to demonstrate that fact with sarcasm, but damnit man, your playing devil's advocate still ends up pissing me off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ, I get where you're coming from, I get what you're actually trying to say, but I still find it annoying because clearly you and I both agree: the new rules are obviously WRONG - we both know that.

And I get that you're trying to demonstrate that fact with sarcasm, but damnit man, your playing devil's advocate still ends up pissing me off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

Heh... Sorry about that, but no worries... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It just irritates me... the new edition could have been so amazing, and then we get crap like what we got. I really wanted to like it, I really did... It is super frustrating.

[Umidori]

Well clearly it's becoming apparent to even the meanest of understandings that CGL doesn't care about putting out quality products.

I got excited, I bought the SR5 corebook when it first came out, and ended I up getting burned. I was utterly disappointed, and it really was the final straw for absolutely destroying their reputation in my eyes. Clearly I'm not the only one, and I suspect the actual number of dissatisfied customers is rather proportionally high. But our complaints aren't merely being actively ignored, they're being flat out denied and dismissed.

I say it's high time we wrote off CGL as what they are - an unscrupulous bunch of uncaring profiteers. If they can't be arsed to give the community what it wants, I say it's high time the community tells them to shove off and stops paying for their drek. I feel bad for the writers and the freelancers and the well-intentioned contributors who actually care about the game system and who try to work within the limits of the CGL system to put out half-decent material for the community at large, but it's clear they're being hamstringed as content creators just as much as we are as players.

With any luck CGL will go under and someone competant will buy the rights. (Dare I hope for Harebrained Studios?) I'm sick of this settling for less, shelling out for inferior products because nothing else is available. If they won't provide a quality product, then by god I want their competitors to have the chance to do so.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So Very, Very True... *sigh*

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Well clearly it's becoming apparent to even the meanest of understandings that CGL doesn't care about putting out quality products.

I got excited, I bought the SR5 corebook when it first came out, and ended I up getting burned. I was utterly disappointed, and it really was the final straw for absolutely destroying their reputation in my eyes. Clearly I'm not the only one, and I suspect the actual number of dissatisfied customers is rather proportionally high. But our complaints aren't merely being actively ignored, they're being flat out denied and dismissed.

I say it's high time we wrote off CGL as what they are - an unscrupulous bunch of uncaring profiteers. If they can't be arsed to give the community what it wants, I say it's high time the community tells them to shove off and stops paying for their drek. I feel bad for the writers and the freelancers and the well-intentioned contributors who actually care about the game system and who try to work within the limits of the CGL system to put out half-decent material for the community at large, but it's clear they're being hamstringed as content creators just as much as we are as players.

With any luck CGL will go under and someone competant will buy the rights. (Dare I hope for Harebrained Studios?) I'm sick of this settling for less, shelling out for inferior products because nothing else is available. If they won't provide a quality product, then by god I want their competitors to have the chance to do so.

~Umi

I have a dream that one day this setting will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed - we hold these truths to be self-evident: that all shadowrunners are created equal.

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Seattle the sons of former players and the sons of former writers will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even CGL, a desert publisher, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little players will one day live in a setting where they will not be judged by the results of their dice but by the content of their character sheet.

I have a dream today!

[Umidori]

Sometimes I wonder if we're past the point of King's style and need to take things to Malcolm X level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

----

As an aside, some of Malcolm X's speeches would make fabulous SR neo-anarchist materials just by changing around a few names and terms.

The economic philosophy of Anarcho-Nationalism only means that we should own and operate and control the economy of our community. You can’t open up a common store in a Corporate community. The Corporate Man won’t even patronize you. And he's not wrong. He's got sense enough to look out for himself. You're the one who don’t have sense enough to look out for yourself.

The Corporate Man is too intelligent to let someone else come and gain control of the economy of his community. But you will let anyone come in and take control of the economy of your community, control the housing, control the education, control the jobs, control the businesses, under the pretext that you want security. No, you outta your mind.

The political, the economic philosophy of Anarcho-Nationalism only means that we have to become involved in a program of reeducation to educate our people into the importance of knowing that when you spend your dollar out of the community in which you live, the community in which you spend your money becomes richer and richer; the community out of which you take your money becomes poorer and poorer. And because these citizens, who have been mislead, misguided, are breaking their necks to take their money and spend it with The Man, The Man is becoming richer and richer, and you’re becoming poorer and poorer.

And then what happens? The community in which you live becomes a slum. It becomes a ghetto. The conditions become run down. And then you have the audacity to complain about poor housing in a run-down community. Why you run it down yourself when you take your dollar out. And you and I are in the double-track, because not only do we lose by taking our money someplace else and spending it, when we try and spend it in our own community we’re trapped because we haven’t had sense enough to set up stores and control the businesses of our own community.

The man who’s controlling the stores in our community is a man who doesn’t live like we do. He’s a man who doesn’t even live in the community. So you and I, even when we try to spend our money in the block where we live or the area where we live, we’re spending it with a man who, when the sun goes down, takes that basket full of money in another part of the town.

So we’re trapped, trapped, double-trapped, triple-trapped. Anywhere we go we find that we’re trapped. And every kind of solution that some one comes up with is just another trap. But the political and economic philosophy of Anarcho-Nationalism shows people the importance of setting up these little stores and developing them and expanding them into larger operations.

Ares didn’t start out big like they are today. They started out with a dime store and expanded and expanded and then expanded until today, they’re all over the country and all over the world, and they get to some of everybody’s money. Aztechnology is the same way. They didn’t start out like they are. They started out just a little rat race type operation. And it expanded and it expanded until today where it is right now. And you and I have to make a start and the best place to start is right in the community where we live.

So our people not only have to be reeducated to the importance of supporting common business, but the common man himself has to be made aware of the importance of going into business. And once you and I go into business, we own and operate at least the businesses in our community. What we will be doing is developing a situation wherein we will actually be able to create employment for the people in the community.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*Clap-Clap*...
So, who is up for starting a business in the Neighborhoods of Redmond, where we live?

My Oni tried that in the several block radius of his neighborhood. It turned out pretty well, wish I had had more time to continue it.

[binarywraith]

again, that only works if the people in the setting are not complete and utter morons.

now, personally, i prefer it a great deal that the people in the setting not be complete and utter morons. but unfortunately, i'm faced with proof, repeatedly, that they are in fact complete and utter morons. and *especially* the people who are in charge of manufacturing anything that would greatly benefit from not requiring the matrix to function at fully capacity.

so, while i would *like* to believe that humanity is not stupid enough to make all 747s remotely controllable and tie every function of the aircraft to the matrix (and even build the aircraft such that it won't function fully without being actively connected to the matrix) just because they can, i am faced with the new edition of shadowrun telling me that they are in fact that stupid. at least, canonically.

of course, in my home games i can decide that they aren't that stupid. but hey, welcome to fifth edition. please check your brain at the door, and replace it with the new matrix-powered version (wireless bonus: you no longer think it's stupid that everything is powered by the matrix).

At this point I've gone with the assumption that Deus actually managed to make wide-scale mind control via psychotropic IC work for him, and everything utterly boneheaded the corps have done with the Matrix is specifically to make his return as a Fully Rampant AI more successful.

Makes more sense than any explanation coming out of CGL. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)