 Sorcery, And beating people up with it. |
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 Feb 28 2005, 11:07 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499  |
So there i was reading my SR3 and i came across a passage that says this.
Ok now this is the third paragraph under Astral Combat Tests. The first is what you do with Perceiving and other Dual Beings. The second about projecting characters. The third seems to apply to both. Now my First Question is does it apply to both? Also if i had a character that was say a Sorcery Adept with a slant for spirit hunting, with say just Sorcery 6, Charisma 8 and a rating 4 Telescoping Staff would he kick ass vs Spirits in combat? Just in Astral or in Physical combat as well? Side Note: Stun Bolt/ Spirit Bolt. Is it me or is Spirit Bolt weak compared to Stun Bolt as Stunning a Spirit to deadly does distrupt it? |
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Mar 1 2005, 12:07 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 26-February 02 From: The Golden Orchards Member No.: 2,011 |
Yeah, spirit bolt is a bit sucky. Spirit blast on the other hand is very useful, since it doesn't hit your team.
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Mar 1 2005, 12:42 AM
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#3
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the Cha 8 won't be useful. as a dual being, you use your physical attributes for astral combat.
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Mar 1 2005, 02:52 AM
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#4
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
What is a rating 4 telescoping staff?
You would be much better off using the force of will against spirits as your charisma would come into play and you get the reach bonus of the staff. See SR3 Pg. 188 for details. Its is very unlikely that you could hurt a spirit in physical combat unless you are using a weapon focus as you would be using your strength otherwise. The rules do apply to both but adepts can't project so...... Also, sorcery used this way counts as spent until it refreshes in your next pass so no spell defense. |
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Mar 1 2005, 03:24 AM
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#5
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Possibly a rating four weapon focus? |
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Mar 1 2005, 06:34 AM
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#6
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Would it not be available if you needed to defend an astral melee attack? |
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Mar 1 2005, 07:04 AM
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#7
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
I suppose it splits up by specialization: you can use it for astral combat, but if you do you can't use it for anything *but* astral combat until it refreshes.
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Mar 1 2005, 07:24 AM
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#8
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
Nope. Like spell defense, when the sorcery dice are used they are gone until your next pass. Its the penalty for not having a real combat skil.
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Mar 1 2005, 07:48 AM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Sorcery is not worth it for most adepts. If they have astral perception or are dual-natured from SURGE, they are better off simply using their normal armed or unarmed combat skills against astral beings. I can see a sorcerer or mage using it, since they could conceivably lack other melee skills, but most adepts will already have one or more high-rated melee skills, making sorcery redundant.
EDIT: For a sorcerer, like your guy, he would need to be astrally perceiving to get the benefits of sorcery as a melee skill. In normal physical combat, he would be stuck defaulting to Strength or using an opposed Willpower test like mundanes, neither of which are optimal tactics for a sorcerer. Note that Charisma becomes astral Strength only when you are actually projecting - for merely perceiving (all that a sorcerer can do), you use your meat-body's Strength. |
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Mar 1 2005, 08:00 AM
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#10
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
On a side note, having Sorcery as the astral combat skill never really made sense to me. I mean, I guess you can use it to manipulate mana, but conjuring - the skill needed to deal directly with spirits - always seemed to make more sense. I mean, the astral is the spirits' home turf, right? So why isn't prowess at dealing with spirits an indicator of badassitude? Just a thought.
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Mar 1 2005, 10:34 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
You aren't *really* dealing with spirits when using Sorcery as a combat skill when projecting. You're just lobbing mana around in cruel and unusual ways. Which is definitely Sorcery, not Conjuring. |
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Mar 1 2005, 01:34 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Yes. Sorry, my bad. It is a Rating 4 Weapon Focus.
Although that is true it's not 100% true. According to Pg 191 Weapon Foci
Though it may of been an oversight. One way of reading that is that, when using weapon Foci in Astral combat you use Charisma instead of Strength wether you be a Dual being or Purely Astral being (assuming you've bonded the weapon ofcause) So if that is the case i use Sorcery as my skill, The Next question is, does the Weapon focus add it's rating in dice to my Willpower role in a Contest of wills? as under Weapon Foci pg 191 it says
And on Pg 188 under Physical Form
So what the effect of a Focus being used in a Contest of wills then??? |
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Mar 1 2005, 01:39 PM
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#13
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Regular combat pool. "Astral" Combat pool is nothing more than the regular combat pool of a purely astral being. Sorcerers cannot become purely astral, thus you can't have an "astral" combat pool. |
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Mar 1 2005, 05:43 PM
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#14
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
I mean, I kinda see where it comes from, but Conjuring also involves manipulating mana and, generally, in astral combat you *are* dealing with spirits - eihter them or astral magicians, whose astral bodies are made up of astral energy, so... why not conjuring? Makes sense to me. I realize it was probably a fairly arbitrary choice in terms of game design, but it also seems to me that sorcery is already the more powerful of the two skills and conjuring could use a bit of a boost in relation. Just my .02 :nuyen: . |
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Mar 1 2005, 07:48 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 19-July 04 From: N 42° 43.799'. W 84° 27.901' Member No.: 6,496 |
Reach modifiers, mostly like any mundane weapon. Whips are among the best defense for mundanes against spirits. Which is just as well, because aside from the dreaded monofilament whip, they're rather useless most of the time against anything else. |
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Mar 1 2005, 07:56 PM
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#16
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
This would all be true, except spirits don't come from or live on the astral plane normally, do they? They in fact have to be called there, which is the whole point of Conjuring in the first place. In fact, Conjuring appears to have more to do with controlling *metaplanar* energy than astral energy. Manipulating astral energy seems to be the province of Sorcery. |
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Mar 1 2005, 08:05 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915 |
i can't find it in the second edition books i've glanced through, but i used to use an optional rule for my home campaign that allowed people to use Conjuring to combat spirits...the rationale being that people have certain cultural faiths, religions, or other beliefs that allow them to have rituals for banishing, etc that are also effective in fighting spirits, now that magic has returned. For instance, a devout Christian could use a cross, holy water, and other devices to effectively combat a spirit using the Conjuring skill to represent the power of their faith and the understanding of various summoning and banishing rituals (prayers, etc).
maybe it was in Awakenings, but i can't remember... anyways, it allowed adepts and mundanes to combat spirits if they had the Conjuring skill - still no pools though... |
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Mar 1 2005, 08:13 PM
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#18
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The only thing I can remember that resembles this are house rules that I think were from NAGEE, but I don't have Awakenings or the original Grimoire sitting around anywhere near...
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Mar 1 2005, 08:18 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 19-July 04 From: N 42° 43.799'. W 84° 27.901' Member No.: 6,496 |
Isn't that what bansihing is supposed to represent? Admittedly, I'd rather just pound the spirit into astral pulp, myself... but I've never been a big conjurer. Sorcery seems more like on the spot astral energy manipulation--I suppose it could explain the astral combat specialization, but like someone said, it's probably just compensation for the poor projecting magician probably lacking a combat skill. |
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Mar 2 2005, 02:37 AM
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#20
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
You can't use sorcery and use a weapon of any kind. Sorcery for combat is just like deckers using hacking pool to attack with, a poor substitute when you have nothing else. Your telescoping focus would require you to use armed combat polearms and you would do Charisma damage against astral targets plus get the extra dice. When using contest of wills, it makes no difference if you are using a butter knife or a rating 10 great axe focus, the weapon is symbolic only, you are attacking with willpower. |
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Mar 2 2005, 04:58 AM
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#21
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Not necessarily. Think of watchers - they're totally astral. And conjuring creates temporary astral constructs while it's going on - basically wards. And there are several places in the books where they refer to the astral plane as spirits' home turf. They're certainly at home there and reluctant to leave unless they have to. It just makes sense to me to have socery deal exclusively with casting spells - which is badass enough - and have conjuring deal exclusively with manipulating spirits and related astral energy. Anyway, I might put something like this in as a house rule and see how it works out. I've never actually had to deal with any of this stuff in a game yet and I've been playing for a loooong time, so it might just be a moot point. |
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Mar 2 2005, 09:26 AM
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#22
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Do you have any kind of quote to back that up? SR3 p 174 states about Astral Combat ...
Since Sorcery can be used in place of armed combat (which, according to the rules, can only be used if the character is armed with a weapon focus), it stands to reason that a weapon focus can be used to normal effect with the Sorcery skill. |
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Mar 3 2005, 04:46 AM
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#23
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
I been down this road a few times before. Its all about how you interpret the damage tables on the next page. Dual beings have their own listing for damage, STR (M). If sorcery is being used as a substitute for armed combat, why is there difference? Why the double listing? As an adept can only be armed or unarmed, there shouldn't be anything else on the table but those two choices and spirits.
Allow it or not, its still a crappy substitute. All the spirit you are fighting has to do is materialize and then you are defaulting to strength. Also, when it attacks back you only have the focus dice because your sorcery wont refresh until next turn because it got "used up". Contradicting rules, who would have thunk it. |
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Mar 3 2005, 05:05 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
I'm not certain that's how it works. I mean, if Sorcery is substituted for those skills, shouldn't it behave exactly like those skills? So, if you have Sorcery 6, in the astral that should be the exact same as Unarmed 6 (or whatever), without any of this "used up" thing. Of course, the spirit can still attack your meat body while materialized, and you can't use Sorcery if you have to fight in your body, but that's the only real difference I see. JaronK |
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Mar 3 2005, 05:10 AM
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#25
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
It says so in the book. When you use sorcery for spell defense or casting its the same. If you use it up doing one thing, it can't be used for anything else until your next turn. So, no defense allowed unless you don't use it on your turn.
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