 Will CitySpeak make a comeback in SR4?, And being multilingual... |
  |
 Apr 6 2005, 01:45 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375  |
I know its trival compared to the "No Dice Pools, WTF?" and "Hackers, WTF?" threads but I'm curious. In SR1 CitySpeak was a pre req for anyone that worked the streets (much like the film Bladerunner) but it seemed to fall by the wayside in SR2 and even moreso in SR3.
Having CitySpeak as a language pretty much made you "Street" or at least a "Street Poser." It also helped with the pervasive "gritty" feel, IMO. It was a defining factor to the "have" vs. the "have nots." Additionaly, will there be a chance for a character to speak more languages? I'm an American so I pretty much only speak English but I know our European SR friends speak speak several languages fluently IRL. In currant SR its all but impossible to speak more than two languages without a genuis level intelligence. So, can anyone talk about this or will that violate a NDA? Is this a non-issue? Thanks! |
 |
 
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 02:14 AM
Post
#2
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Württemberg, AGS Member No.: 2,068 |
Erm, you do know that you can spend knowledge skill points and normal skill points on language skills too, do you? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 6 2005, 03:24 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
…And karma.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 03:24 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Erm...Yeah, I do.
edit: But I shouldn't have to spend knowledge points on languages...or Karma. Europeans have as wide a (RL) knowledge skill set as Americans, AFAIK. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 03:50 AM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Personally I'd have preferred a system where characters automatically recieved rank 3 in thier native tongue ( rank 1 written) on top of thier intelligence computed language points. If you want more euro flavour you could have it where a native language that is not commonly spoken in the campaign (like african or south american dialects) starts out at 4/2 or stays at 3/1 and you get your intelligence computed skill picks +1 or +2.
That way you can have more characters start out with interesting language choices and still have them capable of interacting with broad sections of humanity. With the new system I guess they might go with languages being intelligence linked so the average person might have int 3 english 3 for a dice pool of 6. Understanding easy things would require one success, technical jargon 2-3 and obscure subdialects (cockney and city speak) might require 5 successes etc. Futher Cityspeak should be a subdialect of a wide variety of donor languages as it's a polyglot system similar to spanglish etc. Thus it would likely be a subdialect of english, spanish and chinese or some similar combo. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 02:53 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I don't know what you guys are talking about, but it sounds double plus ungood.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 02:57 AM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Well some people would like for linguistic specialists to be a bit more playable as a character type in SR4. It's totally unfair for a language specialist to spend an ungodly number of build points and then have the idiot troll street samurai with a 4 slot chipjack bet better than he/she is at languages. Linguistics got the shaft! ;)
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 05:10 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Right, because learning a language is so easy that no one should have to spend any sort of build points for it. Unlike things like "using a basic computer" or "driving a car" or "firing a handgun." Being fluent in half a dozen languages without drawback or cost should be completely normal in the game that's also about to make it cost more for a 4 or higher in any attribute.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 05:17 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Except it doesn't work like that. Skills costs are not (at least in theory) based on difficulty of learning. They're based on applicability to the game. Cooking is a knowledge skill (which is a stupidly named category, and skills should have more accurately been broken down into primary, secondary, and possibly tertiary), and I am pretty sure that it is not really twice as hard to learn to shoot a gun or drive a car as it is to learn to cook. Linguistics are not really a meaningful part of the game in any mechanically functional or direct sense. The costs of learning languages are inflated.
And if you disagree with me, I'll tolchock ya 'cross the glazzies. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 05:19 AM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's because Europeans are created using house rules that give more points for languages. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 6 2005, 05:25 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
The cost of learning a language is inflated? They already cost about half as much as learning a normal skill, and you get free points towards it at creation. I can only assume you are insane.
Languages are cheap enough as it is. If someone wants to make a "linguistics specialist," maybe it's okay that it costs them a few freakin' points. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 05:50 AM
Post
#12
|
|||
|
Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
SKill are indeed not based on difficulty of learning, and that's for simplicity's sake. I've seen games that attempt to make different skill diificulty trees, and all they generally accomplish is making chargen a royal bitch, aqnd meaning you have to go digging through the book almost every time you want to spend karma. Basically for SR3, the dev's, writers, and playtesters realized that almost no one took "useless" skills in Shadowrun, unless it was for a very specific reason. In 2nd and 1st ed, there were no knowledge skills, so everything fell under the category of "skill". Some GMs enforced house rules that play had to take one "hobby" skill at Chargen at a minimal rank, with the reasoning that even the most hardened merc and Shadowrunner would have had some hobby at some point in their life, and it usually gave the character a minor amount of "background", even if the player didn't bother writing one up. With 3rd, it was decided to give players a handful of freebie skills to learn up these generally "useless" skills, allowing that PC's actually "know" things beyond physical skills like Firearms and Decking. Knowledge skills are cheaper than Active SKills for a reason, and that's because in the long run, they don't have as direct an impact on the game. Computer, Stealth, Negotiation, and Combat skills will come into play damn near every game session, one way or another. They're an integral part of the core dynamic of the game (And if they don't come up very often in your home game, well... You're not quite playing a standard SR game, are you? :)). Knowdledge skills are something that often a GM needs to work in, or a player needs to be creative to use. Some skills have more practical application, such as an Area Knowledge, but even then, limited use unless that's where you're at. Knowledge: Barrens does me little good in Bug City. But most, like Cooking or COmic Books or Fine Wines or whatever, are only good if the player seeks out opourtunities to use them or the GM tailors scenes around these skills. As for Language Skills... Yeah, I don't know about you, but most folks I know are not bilingual. a couple years of a language is manditory during High School here, and still most folks don't remember more than a handful of words after High School. Language skills are something people have to work at, and work hard at learning. Even then, it usually requires regular practice to stay sharp. As for Cityspeak... <shrug> Personally, I've never used it, always thought it was kind of a dumb concept. Bull |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 6 2005, 07:14 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 29-July 03 Member No.: 5,137 |
I'd say if you want to have bilingual or multilingual characters without paying a huge # of skill points for it, create an advantage called something like multi-lingual upbringing, with variable point cost depending on the number of languages that gives you extra points for languages depending on level. Trying to represent the actual difficulty of skills in a gaming system is difficult at best. GURPS is the only system I can think of off hand that does it, and it does necessitate I look up the difficulty of a skill every time I learn a new one. I think the current system is fine, and toss in an advantage like the one above if you really want to encourage multi-lingual characters. I tend to take pretty high Int, so have plenty of language points for my needs at least.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 06:18 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Japan Member No.: 5,497 |
Actually there's a difference between that troll with the linguasoft and the person who has learned it naturally and that's the intuitive contexts that no program can mimic (this was mentioned several times and the one that jumps out at me is cyberpirates and the caribean). Let me give an example.
Runner A and B both go to Japan (since that's the language I know). A studied the language in college and spent some time living in the Niigata area (rank 4). B has a rank 4 linguasoft. So the two runners are walking down the streets of Tokyo and need to ask for directions. In this case both would not be a problem and it would be equal. A little ways further they come accross some Bozoku hoods who decide to hurl insults at the people using their local slang. B is in serious problems since the linguasoft doesn't include slang (like modern electronic dictionaries, they aren't up to date and they don't usually include any slang unless it's very commonly used). A is in a bit of a tough spot as it's not from the region he's accustom to, but he can figure things out a bit easier. B tries to make a witty comment and ends up causing the gangsters to burst out laughing as it becomes aparent that B has a linguasoft. Why? Because the linguasoft can't differentiate a situation and puts the words in polite terms (using ~masu) instead of plain or informal (afterall why would a proper person need to use the inpolite stuff. A on the other hand, knows Niigata slang and some of the more choice words and can hold his own much better than B. A ways away our daring trio find some kanji. B's linguasoft can't recognize it (sorry rank 6 kanji) and he's stuck without a clue at what to do about it. A however, as a person who had to learn the hardway knows to bring a kanji dictionary and pulls that out. He also knows how to find the kanji by looking at just part of the kanji. The difference between these is one of adaptability. A linguasoft can't adapt and can't take into account the situations. At most it can probably switch between plain, polite, humble and honorific (honorific at rank 4+). However it lacks the depth of the language such as the ever changing slang, the more colorful insults (I sincerely doubt they'd add 'I'll fucking kill you!' to their program) and the none spoken cues. A person who has studied the language will be much more able to adapt and if they've spent any amount of time in the culture they can pick up the differences (a great example is in Tokyo they use ashita for tomorrow but here in Niigata they use asu) and adapt to them. plus if you add in a complicated writing system like japanese (3000 kanji for high school students) then the system may not be able to tell you what denshi means if the word isn't in the dictionary even though the two kanji are (den being electricity and shi being child) while a person who has put the time into studying will be able to guess that it means electron. As for ranking, I always said this. 1 is very basics (the infamous 'This is a pen' heard here in Japan :( ) two is the basics (Go down this street and turn left at the second traffic light) three is day to day conversation while 4 is buisness level converstations, 5 is specilized and specific systems (wanna talk to the emperor fluently?) and 6 is a phd level. So for those who are fluent in many languages just need to take rank 3 or 4, not 5 or 6 anyways just my 2 :nuyen: |
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 09:03 AM
Post
#15
|
|||
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Then we know entirely different kinds of people, apparently. Or it may be due to the fact that you, unlike me and all the people I know, are an English native. Nowadays, you can litterally not do anything with the internet without at least a basic knowledge of English. Hence, all non-Anglo Europeans who don't want to be left on the wrong side of the digital divide have to be at least bilingual. Now, I know mainly university people, a large number of them foreigners tat that, so they're usually(more or less) proficient in at least German, English, and their respective native languages. Of course, whether this is just a foreign language spoken more or less well or true bilinguality (or something close to that) varies from country to country. Larger countries, like France, Germany, Spain and Italy tend to get, for example, dubbed TV shows. Smaller ones, most notably Scandinavians, don't, and pick up bits and pieces of foreign languages that way almost on the fly. But it remains that at least somewhat educated people outside the Anglo-Saxon lingustitic group usually can be expected to have at least basic knowledge of English. In a world like Shadowrun's, characters who (like a lot of Americans today think learning languages is for losers do have linguasofts at their hands, and thus, may not want to go through the process and learn the language the hardway. However, as Hasagwan pointed out, linguasofts have their limits, and if you really want to be able to blend in with the locals, learning a language is a must. Plus, I'd expect Japanese in SR not to be too appreciative of Gaijin who just slot a chip and then think they know it all (or, for that matter, French towards foreigners who only slot a French 3 soft and think they can blend in now), so a linguasoft should be a social handicap at least in certain cultures. As for Cityspeak, I agree with Bull. It was a stupid concept I never liked, nor used. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 6 2005, 09:36 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Now if they were to throw in taxilingua from Neal Stephensen's Snow Crash, I'd be cool with that.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 08:34 AM
Post
#17
|
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Eh? I'm not familiar with that book, I'm afraid ... could you outline the idea, pelase?
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 10:29 AM
Post
#18
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
Well, I live in Ireland, where the native language is effectively English. Still, more than half the people I know can at least follow the news and have some sort of conversation in Irish, and most of them can make a stab at either German or French. Travelling around Italy, France and Austria has shown me that most Italians, French and Austrians have at least a fair level of English, and most of them are happy to use it (except in Paris...). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 6 2005, 11:22 AM
Post
#19
|
|||||
|
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Second that. EVERYONE I know speaks at least 2 languages (french and english). Obviously because of necessity. Americans are one of the rare cultures that know only 1 language, because they have no one else to talk to or can force other cultures to speak their language. In Shadowrun, North America, the bastion of unilinguism, has been shattered into many countries (the NAN) who all speak differant languages. A modern person in the 6th World will probably know more than 1 language, though admitedly linguasofts can compensate for a lot. Learning a language is a bitch, so I can see linguasofts being more used than actually learningg the language. But "picking up" a secondary tongue, the one of the country closest to you, will be common. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Apr 6 2005, 11:44 AM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
The average person in Shadowrun does know more than one language, unless they've got a fairly low Intelligence score. That's why they get (a) free language points, and (b) free knowledge skill points to spend on languages if they want.
You guys are all going "characters should know more than one language," and the rules -- as written, right now -- are saying "they do." I'm not sure how many more free points you want. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 12:56 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
I'm just being a 'language snob' and want my SR character to be able to speak, read, and write as many languages as I do as fluently as I do while still being moderately playable.
But that's what house rules are for... |
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 12:03 PM
Post
#22
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Oddly enough, I went to google to see if I could get the passage from the book, and came up with an entry the Big Knobi Club's Shadowslang glossary: Taxilingua: n. The language spoken exclusively by cab drivers, rumored to have been originally based on English. It's described in the book as "They said it was based on English but not one word in a hundred was recognizable...Taxilinga is melliflous babble with a few harsh foreign sounds, like butter spiced with broken glass." One of the points of Snow Crash is that there had been a lot of immigration and a general influx of refugees from various third world countries into the balkanized mess Stephensen had visualized the US becoming, and given that there's already an issue in the present day Real World with foreign accents in the drivers seat of taxi cabs, Taxilingua is supposed to be the evolution/exacerbation of that concept taken to the logical conclusion implied by Snow Crash's setting. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 6 2005, 12:50 PM
Post
#23
|
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Heh. Well, I don't see that Problem in Germany and other German-language countries at least ... however badly Turks speak German, some ethnic groups have dialects that are worse ... Swiss are usually subtitled in our news, though *I* usually understand them.
Bavarian and Flat German (spoken in the far north, and has a lot of words borrowed from English) are about as similar as Swedish and Norwegian. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2005, 01:00 PM
Post
#24
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
[Anal]
[/Anal]
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 6 2005, 02:37 PM
Post
#25
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
Could be worse. He could be talking about guns... ;) |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 24th April 2026 - 06:12 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.