I know its trival compared to the "No Dice Pools, WTF?" and "Hackers, WTF?" threads but I'm curious. In SR1 CitySpeak was a pre req for anyone that worked the streets (much like the film Bladerunner) but it seemed to fall by the wayside in SR2 and even moreso in SR3.
Having CitySpeak as a language pretty much made you "Street" or at least a "Street Poser." It also helped with the pervasive "gritty" feel, IMO. It was a defining factor to the "have" vs. the "have nots."
Additionaly, will there be a chance for a character to speak more languages? I'm an American so I pretty much only speak English but I know our European SR friends speak speak several languages fluently IRL. In currant SR its all but impossible to speak more than two languages without a genuis level intelligence.
So, can anyone talk about this or will that violate a NDA? Is this a non-issue?
Thanks!
Full Version: Will CitySpeak make a comeback in SR4?
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| In currant SR its all but impossible to speak more than two languages without a genuis level intelligence. |
Erm, you do know that you can spend knowledge skill points and normal skill points on language skills too, do you?
…And karma.
~J
~J
Erm...Yeah, I do.
edit: But I shouldn't have to spend knowledge points on languages...or Karma. Europeans have as wide a (RL) knowledge skill set as Americans, AFAIK.
edit: But I shouldn't have to spend knowledge points on languages...or Karma. Europeans have as wide a (RL) knowledge skill set as Americans, AFAIK.
Personally I'd have preferred a system where characters automatically recieved rank 3 in thier native tongue ( rank 1 written) on top of thier intelligence computed language points. If you want more euro flavour you could have it where a native language that is not commonly spoken in the campaign (like african or south american dialects) starts out at 4/2 or stays at 3/1 and you get your intelligence computed skill picks +1 or +2.
That way you can have more characters start out with interesting language choices and still have them capable of interacting with broad sections of humanity.
With the new system I guess they might go with languages being intelligence linked so the average person might have int 3 english 3 for a dice pool of 6. Understanding easy things would require one success, technical jargon 2-3 and obscure subdialects (cockney and city speak) might require 5 successes etc.
Futher Cityspeak should be a subdialect of a wide variety of donor languages as it's a polyglot system similar to spanglish etc. Thus it would likely be a subdialect of english, spanish and chinese or some similar combo.
That way you can have more characters start out with interesting language choices and still have them capable of interacting with broad sections of humanity.
With the new system I guess they might go with languages being intelligence linked so the average person might have int 3 english 3 for a dice pool of 6. Understanding easy things would require one success, technical jargon 2-3 and obscure subdialects (cockney and city speak) might require 5 successes etc.
Futher Cityspeak should be a subdialect of a wide variety of donor languages as it's a polyglot system similar to spanglish etc. Thus it would likely be a subdialect of english, spanish and chinese or some similar combo.
I don't know what you guys are talking about, but it sounds double plus ungood.
Well some people would like for linguistic specialists to be a bit more playable as a character type in SR4. It's totally unfair for a language specialist to spend an ungodly number of build points and then have the idiot troll street samurai with a 4 slot chipjack bet better than he/she is at languages. Linguistics got the shaft! 
Right, because learning a language is so easy that no one should have to spend any sort of build points for it. Unlike things like "using a basic computer" or "driving a car" or "firing a handgun." Being fluent in half a dozen languages without drawback or cost should be completely normal in the game that's also about to make it cost more for a 4 or higher in any attribute.
Except it doesn't work like that. Skills costs are not (at least in theory) based on difficulty of learning. They're based on applicability to the game. Cooking is a knowledge skill (which is a stupidly named category, and skills should have more accurately been broken down into primary, secondary, and possibly tertiary), and I am pretty sure that it is not really twice as hard to learn to shoot a gun or drive a car as it is to learn to cook. Linguistics are not really a meaningful part of the game in any mechanically functional or direct sense. The costs of learning languages are inflated.
And if you disagree with me, I'll tolchock ya 'cross the glazzies.
And if you disagree with me, I'll tolchock ya 'cross the glazzies.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| Europeans have as wide a (RL) knowledge skill set as Americans, AFAIK. |
that's because Europeans are created using house rules that give more points for languages.
The cost of learning a language is inflated? They already cost about half as much as learning a normal skill, and you get free points towards it at creation. I can only assume you are insane.
Languages are cheap enough as it is. If someone wants to make a "linguistics specialist," maybe it's okay that it costs them a few freakin' points.
Languages are cheap enough as it is. If someone wants to make a "linguistics specialist," maybe it's okay that it costs them a few freakin' points.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Except it doesn't work like that. Skills costs are not (at least in theory) based on difficulty of learning. They're based on applicability to the game. Cooking is a knowledge skill (which is a stupidly named category, and skills should have more accurately been broken down into primary, secondary, and possibly tertiary), and I am pretty sure that it is not really twice as hard to learn to shoot a gun or drive a car as it is to learn to cook. Linguistics are not really a meaningful part of the game in any mechanically functional or direct sense. The costs of learning languages are inflated. And if you disagree with me, I'll tolchock ya 'cross the glazzies. |
SKill are indeed not based on difficulty of learning, and that's for simplicity's sake. I've seen games that attempt to make different skill diificulty trees, and all they generally accomplish is making chargen a royal bitch, aqnd meaning you have to go digging through the book almost every time you want to spend karma.
Basically for SR3, the dev's, writers, and playtesters realized that almost no one took "useless" skills in Shadowrun, unless it was for a very specific reason. In 2nd and 1st ed, there were no knowledge skills, so everything fell under the category of "skill". Some GMs enforced house rules that play had to take one "hobby" skill at Chargen at a minimal rank, with the reasoning that even the most hardened merc and Shadowrunner would have had some hobby at some point in their life, and it usually gave the character a minor amount of "background", even if the player didn't bother writing one up.
With 3rd, it was decided to give players a handful of freebie skills to learn up these generally "useless" skills, allowing that PC's actually "know" things beyond physical skills like Firearms and Decking.
Knowledge skills are cheaper than Active SKills for a reason, and that's because in the long run, they don't have as direct an impact on the game. Computer, Stealth, Negotiation, and Combat skills will come into play damn near every game session, one way or another. They're an integral part of the core dynamic of the game (And if they don't come up very often in your home game, well... You're not quite playing a standard SR game, are you?
). Knowdledge skills are something that often a GM needs to work in, or a player needs to be creative to use. Some skills have more practical application, such as an Area Knowledge, but even then, limited use unless that's where you're at. Knowledge: Barrens does me little good in Bug City. But most, like Cooking or COmic Books or Fine Wines or whatever, are only good if the player seeks out opourtunities to use them or the GM tailors scenes around these skills.
As for Language Skills... Yeah, I don't know about you, but most folks I know are not bilingual. a couple years of a language is manditory during High School here, and still most folks don't remember more than a handful of words after High School.
Language skills are something people have to work at, and work hard at learning. Even then, it usually requires regular practice to stay sharp.
As for Cityspeak... <shrug> Personally, I've never used it, always thought it was kind of a dumb concept.
Bull
I'd say if you want to have bilingual or multilingual characters without paying a huge # of skill points for it, create an advantage called something like multi-lingual upbringing, with variable point cost depending on the number of languages that gives you extra points for languages depending on level. Trying to represent the actual difficulty of skills in a gaming system is difficult at best. GURPS is the only system I can think of off hand that does it, and it does necessitate I look up the difficulty of a skill every time I learn a new one. I think the current system is fine, and toss in an advantage like the one above if you really want to encourage multi-lingual characters. I tend to take pretty high Int, so have plenty of language points for my needs at least.
Actually there's a difference between that troll with the linguasoft and the person who has learned it naturally and that's the intuitive contexts that no program can mimic (this was mentioned several times and the one that jumps out at me is cyberpirates and the caribean). Let me give an example.
Runner A and B both go to Japan (since that's the language I know). A studied the language in college and spent some time living in the Niigata area (rank 4). B has a rank 4 linguasoft.
So the two runners are walking down the streets of Tokyo and need to ask for directions. In this case both would not be a problem and it would be equal.
A little ways further they come accross some Bozoku hoods who decide to hurl insults at the people using their local slang. B is in serious problems since the linguasoft doesn't include slang (like modern electronic dictionaries, they aren't up to date and they don't usually include any slang unless it's very commonly used). A is in a bit of a tough spot as it's not from the region he's accustom to, but he can figure things out a bit easier.
B tries to make a witty comment and ends up causing the gangsters to burst out laughing as it becomes aparent that B has a linguasoft. Why? Because the linguasoft can't differentiate a situation and puts the words in polite terms (using ~masu) instead of plain or informal (afterall why would a proper person need to use the inpolite stuff. A on the other hand, knows Niigata slang and some of the more choice words and can hold his own much better than B.
A ways away our daring trio find some kanji. B's linguasoft can't recognize it (sorry rank 6 kanji) and he's stuck without a clue at what to do about it. A however, as a person who had to learn the hardway knows to bring a kanji dictionary and pulls that out. He also knows how to find the kanji by looking at just part of the kanji.
The difference between these is one of adaptability. A linguasoft can't adapt and can't take into account the situations. At most it can probably switch between plain, polite, humble and honorific (honorific at rank 4+). However it lacks the depth of the language such as the ever changing slang, the more colorful insults (I sincerely doubt they'd add 'I'll fucking kill you!' to their program) and the none spoken cues. A person who has studied the language will be much more able to adapt and if they've spent any amount of time in the culture they can pick up the differences (a great example is in Tokyo they use ashita for tomorrow but here in Niigata they use asu) and adapt to them. plus if you add in a complicated writing system like japanese (3000 kanji for high school students) then the system may not be able to tell you what denshi means if the word isn't in the dictionary even though the two kanji are (den being electricity and shi being child) while a person who has put the time into studying will be able to guess that it means electron.
As for ranking, I always said this. 1 is very basics (the infamous 'This is a pen' heard here in Japan
) two is the basics (Go down this street and turn left at the second traffic light) three is day to day conversation while 4 is buisness level converstations, 5 is specilized and specific systems (wanna talk to the emperor fluently?) and 6 is a phd level.
So for those who are fluent in many languages just need to take rank 3 or 4, not 5 or 6
anyways just my 2
Runner A and B both go to Japan (since that's the language I know). A studied the language in college and spent some time living in the Niigata area (rank 4). B has a rank 4 linguasoft.
So the two runners are walking down the streets of Tokyo and need to ask for directions. In this case both would not be a problem and it would be equal.
A little ways further they come accross some Bozoku hoods who decide to hurl insults at the people using their local slang. B is in serious problems since the linguasoft doesn't include slang (like modern electronic dictionaries, they aren't up to date and they don't usually include any slang unless it's very commonly used). A is in a bit of a tough spot as it's not from the region he's accustom to, but he can figure things out a bit easier.
B tries to make a witty comment and ends up causing the gangsters to burst out laughing as it becomes aparent that B has a linguasoft. Why? Because the linguasoft can't differentiate a situation and puts the words in polite terms (using ~masu) instead of plain or informal (afterall why would a proper person need to use the inpolite stuff. A on the other hand, knows Niigata slang and some of the more choice words and can hold his own much better than B.
A ways away our daring trio find some kanji. B's linguasoft can't recognize it (sorry rank 6 kanji) and he's stuck without a clue at what to do about it. A however, as a person who had to learn the hardway knows to bring a kanji dictionary and pulls that out. He also knows how to find the kanji by looking at just part of the kanji.
The difference between these is one of adaptability. A linguasoft can't adapt and can't take into account the situations. At most it can probably switch between plain, polite, humble and honorific (honorific at rank 4+). However it lacks the depth of the language such as the ever changing slang, the more colorful insults (I sincerely doubt they'd add 'I'll fucking kill you!' to their program) and the none spoken cues. A person who has studied the language will be much more able to adapt and if they've spent any amount of time in the culture they can pick up the differences (a great example is in Tokyo they use ashita for tomorrow but here in Niigata they use asu) and adapt to them. plus if you add in a complicated writing system like japanese (3000 kanji for high school students) then the system may not be able to tell you what denshi means if the word isn't in the dictionary even though the two kanji are (den being electricity and shi being child) while a person who has put the time into studying will be able to guess that it means electron.
As for ranking, I always said this. 1 is very basics (the infamous 'This is a pen' heard here in Japan
) two is the basics (Go down this street and turn left at the second traffic light) three is day to day conversation while 4 is buisness level converstations, 5 is specilized and specific systems (wanna talk to the emperor fluently?) and 6 is a phd level.So for those who are fluent in many languages just need to take rank 3 or 4, not 5 or 6
anyways just my 2
| QUOTE |
| As for Language Skills... Yeah, I don't know about you, but most folks I know are not bilingual. a couple years of a language is manditory during High School here, and still most folks don't remember more than a handful of words after High School. |
Then we know entirely different kinds of people, apparently. Or it may be due to the fact that you, unlike me and all the people I know, are an English native. Nowadays, you can litterally not do anything with the internet without at least a basic knowledge of English. Hence, all non-Anglo Europeans who don't want to be left on the wrong side of the digital divide have to be at least bilingual. Now, I know mainly university people, a large number of them foreigners tat that, so they're usually(more or less) proficient in at least German, English, and their respective native languages.
Of course, whether this is just a foreign language spoken more or less well or true bilinguality (or something close to that) varies from country to country. Larger countries, like France, Germany, Spain and Italy tend to get, for example, dubbed TV shows. Smaller ones, most notably Scandinavians, don't, and pick up bits and pieces of foreign languages that way almost on the fly.
But it remains that at least somewhat educated people outside the Anglo-Saxon lingustitic group usually can be expected to have at least basic knowledge of English.
In a world like Shadowrun's, characters who (like a lot of Americans today think learning languages is for losers do have linguasofts at their hands, and thus, may not want to go through the process and learn the language the hardway. However, as Hasagwan pointed out, linguasofts have their limits, and if you really want to be able to blend in with the locals, learning a language is a must. Plus, I'd expect Japanese in SR not to be too appreciative of Gaijin who just slot a chip and then think they know it all (or, for that matter, French towards foreigners who only slot a French 3 soft and think they can blend in now), so a linguasoft should be a social handicap at least in certain cultures.
As for Cityspeak, I agree with Bull. It was a stupid concept I never liked, nor used.
Now if they were to throw in taxilingua from Neal Stephensen's Snow Crash, I'd be cool with that.
Eh? I'm not familiar with that book, I'm afraid ... could you outline the idea, pelase?
| QUOTE |
| As for Language Skills... Yeah, I don't know about you, but most folks I know are not bilingual. a couple years of a language is manditory during High School here, and still most folks don't remember more than a handful of words after High School. |
Well, I live in Ireland, where the native language is effectively English. Still, more than half the people I know can at least follow the news and have some sort of conversation in Irish, and most of them can make a stab at either German or French.
Travelling around Italy, France and Austria has shown me that most Italians, French and Austrians have at least a fair level of English, and most of them are happy to use it (except in Paris...).
| QUOTE (Demosthenes) | ||
Well, I live in Ireland, where the native language is effectively English. Still, more than half the people I know can at least follow the news and have some sort of conversation in Irish, and most of them can make a stab at either German or French. Travelling around Italy, France and Austria has shown me that most Italians, French and Austrians have at least a fair level of English, and most of them are happy to use it (except in Paris...). |
Second that. EVERYONE I know speaks at least 2 languages (french and english). Obviously because of necessity. Americans are one of the rare cultures that know only 1 language, because they have no one else to talk to or can force other cultures to speak their language.
In Shadowrun, North America, the bastion of unilinguism, has been shattered into many countries (the NAN) who all speak differant languages.
A modern person in the 6th World will probably know more than 1 language, though admitedly linguasofts can compensate for a lot. Learning a language is a bitch, so I can see linguasofts being more used than actually learningg the language. But "picking up" a secondary tongue, the one of the country closest to you, will be common.
The average person in Shadowrun does know more than one language, unless they've got a fairly low Intelligence score. That's why they get (a) free language points, and (b) free knowledge skill points to spend on languages if they want.
You guys are all going "characters should know more than one language," and the rules -- as written, right now -- are saying "they do." I'm not sure how many more free points you want.
You guys are all going "characters should know more than one language," and the rules -- as written, right now -- are saying "they do." I'm not sure how many more free points you want.
I'm just being a 'language snob' and want my SR character to be able to speak, read, and write as many languages as I do as fluently as I do while still being moderately playable.
But that's what house rules are for...
But that's what house rules are for...
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Eh? I'm not familiar with that book, I'm afraid ... could you outline the idea, pelase? |
Oddly enough, I went to google to see if I could get the passage from the book, and came up with an entry the Big Knobi Club's Shadowslang glossary:
Taxilingua: n. The language spoken exclusively by cab drivers, rumored to have been originally based on English.
It's described in the book as "They said it was based on English but not one word in a hundred was recognizable...Taxilinga is melliflous babble with a few harsh foreign sounds, like butter spiced with broken glass."
One of the points of Snow Crash is that there had been a lot of immigration and a general influx of refugees from various third world countries into the balkanized mess Stephensen had visualized the US becoming, and given that there's already an issue in the present day Real World with foreign accents in the drivers seat of taxi cabs, Taxilingua is supposed to be the evolution/exacerbation of that concept taken to the logical conclusion implied by Snow Crash's setting.
Heh. Well, I don't see that Problem in Germany and other German-language countries at least ... however badly Turks speak German, some ethnic groups have dialects that are worse ... Swiss are usually subtitled in our news, though *I* usually understand them.
Bavarian and Flat German (spoken in the far north, and has a lot of words borrowed from English) are about as similar as Swedish and Norwegian.
Bavarian and Flat German (spoken in the far north, and has a lot of words borrowed from English) are about as similar as Swedish and Norwegian.
[Anal]
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| [...] [Low] German (spoken in the [...] |
[/Anal]
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
[Anal]
[/Anal] |
Could be worse.
He could be talking about guns...
Hey, correcting people about guns isn't being anal!
Bah, it was a 100% translation from German (Plattdeutsch). Low German, duh. Like I studied linguistics in english. 
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Hey, correcting people about guns isn't being anal! |
Which do you do more, shoot people, or talk?
My German teacher was a kind of small cake - er, I mean he was from Berlin, and the only places I ever used my German were in Austria and Bavaria. Guess who got chewed out for his accent all the time...
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Flat German (spoken in the far north, and has a lot of words borrowed from English) |
Other way round!
English is related to Low German. The Angeln tribe (where the "Anglo" in "Anglo-Saxon" comes from) orginally lived in North Germany on the Baltic Sea coast before settling in Britain.
Basically, English is a German dialect heavily influenced by French and Latin.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| Guess who got chewed out for his accent all the time... |
Take it with pride! You're speaking High German while they only mumble their strange dialects.
| QUOTE (Demosthenes) |
| I'm just being a 'language snob' and want my SR character to be able to speak, read, and write as many languages as I do as fluently as I do while still being moderately playable. |
no. you're simply not taking into account the fact that you weren't born with 123 build points. realism doesn't really factor into it; i can point to lots of people who know only one language. where did their extra language points go? come to think, there are also people out there like Greg Graffin, who have both rockstar-level Cha and two PhDs--i think that's kinda munchkin, myself, how many build points did he get?
oh what, in real life, we don't get language points or build points or anything else related to chargen. because SR is a game, see, and the chargen process is intended to create playable characters of the same general level of ability. it's not intended to be able to recreate Demosthenes, Language Guy Extraordinaire.
the average runner is, at a minimum, bilingual. you can split that up to be trilingual or better, or spend knowledge points to do so. i don't see the problem.
| QUOTE |
| Take it with pride! You're speaking High German while they only mumble their strange dialects. |
Hahahaha! I can speak fairly flawless Saxonian (though not as originally Dresden style as my sister can; she's downright frightening!) and decent Bavarian as well. Berlinian ... well, a bit, but I hate it myself. Sounds all like low-life skinheads from Koenigs-Wusterhausen to me.
| QUOTE |
| Other way round! English is related to Low German. The Angeln tribe (where the "Anglo" in "Anglo-Saxon" comes from) orginally lived in North Germany on the Baltic Sea coast before settling in Britain. Basically, English is a German dialect heavily influenced by French and Latin. |
I know, but I always thought these were reimported by sailors ... for all I know, ever since Trafalgar, English has been the inofficial language of the seas. Well, propably you're right.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 6 2005, 03:02 PM) |
| no. you're simply not taking into account the fact that you weren't born with 123 build points. <snip> oh what, in real life, we don't get language points or build points or anything else related to chargen. because SR is a game, see, and the chargen process is intended to create playable characters of the same general level of ability. |
Maybe the part of my post where I said
| QUOTE |
| But that's what house rules are for... |
sort of passed you by? 
Maybe I just find the way SR defines linguistic fluency and literacy a little lacking, just as some people find the firearms and combat rules lacking?
mfb, what exactly are you so pissed off about?
Maybe I just find the way SR defines linguistic fluency and literacy a little lacking, just as some people find the firearms and combat rules lacking?
mfb, what exactly are you so pissed off about?
My group has house ruled every character gets one native language at 5 for free at chargen.
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| Second that. EVERYONE I know speaks at least 2 languages (french and english). Obviously because of necessity. Americans are one of the rare cultures that know only 1 language, because they have no one else to talk to or can force other cultures to speak their language. |
Heyheyhey...To defend Americans:
1. We do learn languages...Until a few years ago, though, it was only maybe 2 years in high school. My younger cousins (like, starting 4 years younger than me), though, started learning in middle school if not grade school.
2. As such, we don't learn it very *well*.
3. Even if we did learn it decently, there are *no* chances to practice. And, as we all know, language skills are *very* perishable (something I think SR would do well to represent).
4. Which leads to the fact that most Americans have *attempted* to learn a foreign language. Actually having facility in that language, however, is another matter. And that is largely attributable to the fact that most people in the US *do* live in areas where: A. You don't need any more than English, B. You couldn't get to a native language area (like crossing the border into Quebec or Mexico) very conveniently anyway. As you get closer to the US-Mexican border, more people know at least a basic amount of Spanish. French, I couldn't say, because Quebec *is* part of Canada.
But most people? The borders in question are a long way away.
A more interesting question, one that would be well-advised to be answered in SR4:
What level is 'fluency' in SR's language skills?
Oh how I wish SR stole the ILR system.
What level is 'fluency' in SR's language skills?
Oh how I wish SR stole the ILR system.
| QUOTE (Demosthenes) |
| mfb, what exactly are you so pissed off about? |
er, sorry. i'm not; i just tend to drive points home as hard as possible so that there are no questions. questions are the enemy.
my basic point is that the SR chargen and character advancement system is not intended to recreate real people. in real life, some people simply learn and do more than other people--all men are not actually created equal, despite what my country's constitution says. the fact that most runners are only bilingual isn't a flaw in the system; it's just an artifact of how RPG systems have to work.
if i were going to fix it, i guess i'd do it with an edge. Multilingual; 2, 4, or 6 points; each level adds 4 language points (enough to be fluent in a single extra language).
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| What level is 'fluency' in SR's language skills? |
Since the average Intelligence is 3, I'd say 3 is fluent.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| if i were going to fix it, i guess i'd do it with an edge. Multilingual; 2, 4, or 6 points; each level adds 4 language points (enough to be fluent in a single extra language). |
Ah, the dreaded Cunning Linguist Edge!
that's the problem with the world. if i killed you, fortune, i'd be the bad guy.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
er, sorry. i'm not; i just tend to drive points home as hard as possible so that there are no questions. questions are the enemy. my basic point is that the SR chargen and character advancement system is not intended to recreate real people. in real life, some people simply learn and do more than other people--all men are not actually created equal, despite what my country's constitution says. the fact that most runners are only bilingual isn't a flaw in the system; it's just an artifact of how RPG systems have to work. if i were going to fix it, i guess i'd do it with an edge. Multilingual; 2, 4, or 6 points; each level adds 4 language points (enough to be fluent in a single extra language). |
I get that.
Hence my comment about "house rules"...
| QUOTE |
| that's the problem with the world. if i killed you, fortune, i'd be the bad guy. |
Indeed. But shouldn't there be a difference between the "linguist" edge...and....and...what he said?
Heh, I've actually seen and thumbed through a Japanese phrase book that provided entries with categories like "If you hear this, walk away slowly and politely.", and "Get out of there immediately" and included various phrases for locating prostitutes and strip clubs. Seems like a handy book to have for most runners.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| Having CitySpeak as a language pretty much made you "Street" or at least a "Street Poser." It also helped with the pervasive "gritty" feel, IMO. It was a defining factor to the "have" vs. the "have nots." |
Agreed. It was a very nice concept, not very new but nice. It still exist somewhat in SR3, with a linguo of your main area language (which may make more sense). Some emphasize on it would be nice.
| QUOTE |
| Additionaly, will there be a chance for a character to speak more languages? I'm an American so I pretty much only speak English but I know our European SR friends speak speak several languages fluently IRL. In currant SR its all but impossible to speak more than two languages without a genuis level intelligence. |
Disagree. SR3 is perfectly nice and balanced on that point, for the basic setting (Seattle) you speak your native tongue. If this native tongue is english, you would use the free point to have some basic knowledge of japanese, maybe some salish, aztlaner, spanish, whatever the guy next door talk.
You want more ? You spend knowledge skill points in it. You want a lot more ? You spend skill point in it. You don't want to train/practice for it ? Go to the next mall, and buy the appropriate chip to speak it.
It make perfect sense.
City Speak is obviously a variant on Bladerunner etc where it's assumed that the melting pot of massive cities with diverse populations causes languages to merge in strange ways that are sometimes incomprehensible to outsiders.
Living in Texas it's not uncommon to experience speaking Spanglish which tends to mix english and various spanish dialect with the occasional smattering of Nahuatl. If you assume that such blending becomes the norm in the future where most people can get along with a pidgin tongue that borrows terms from a wide number of languages it's very evocative of the pressing masses of metahumanity in the middle of the 21st century. Now whether cityspeak should be able to get across complex subjects is a debatable topic but various subdialects like the prototypical thieves cant might be able to get across a narrow range of exceedingly complex topics.
Back to the languages issue if your standard gameplay is largely fixed in an area where only one or two languages is the norm then the standard ruleset is perfectly acceptable but if you do a lot of campaigning in the jetsetting type crowd where the runners fly from country to country then a house rule that better simulates the extreme aptitude some people have towards languages would be a very good ruleset.
Living in Texas it's not uncommon to experience speaking Spanglish which tends to mix english and various spanish dialect with the occasional smattering of Nahuatl. If you assume that such blending becomes the norm in the future where most people can get along with a pidgin tongue that borrows terms from a wide number of languages it's very evocative of the pressing masses of metahumanity in the middle of the 21st century. Now whether cityspeak should be able to get across complex subjects is a debatable topic but various subdialects like the prototypical thieves cant might be able to get across a narrow range of exceedingly complex topics.
Back to the languages issue if your standard gameplay is largely fixed in an area where only one or two languages is the norm then the standard ruleset is perfectly acceptable but if you do a lot of campaigning in the jetsetting type crowd where the runners fly from country to country then a house rule that better simulates the extreme aptitude some people have towards languages would be a very good ruleset.
| QUOTE (Bull) |
| Computer, Stealth, Negotiation, and Combat skills will come into play damn near every game session, one way or another. They're an integral part of the core dynamic of the game (And if they don't come up very often in your home game, well... You're not quite playing a standard SR game, are you? ). |
When my players refuse to take Negotiation, Stealth or Computer skills, and in fact just prefer blowing the drek out of people to negotiate with, observers, or data terminals with their Assault Rifles, Launch Weapons and Demolitions skills, it ain't my fault.
No, this wasn't a non-standard table top campaign... this was the first four tables of Shadowrun Missions that I ran.
Players take what skills they want, and it's the GM's responsibility to either make life hard for them to get them to spend karma on those other skills, or let them turn the game into the fragfest they so obviously want it to be.
About the language thing.
I can only speak one language so can most of the people I know. But I am an American. We seem to be linguistically xenophobic. I have taken German and Spanish classes. I have also picked up a few things from other languages. Of course I have forgotten most of what I learned. My problems lies in the fact that I have no exposure to any other language. I used to work at a place with a number of hispanics. I learned more spanish by listening to them at breaktime then I did in two years of high school spanish. Those of you who live across the pond often have more exposure to other languages as well as a more accepting attitude.
In the SR world. Things are likely different in North America. A wider variety of cultures and laguages in will increase the proximity factor as well as exposure. I would assume the average North American in SR in more likely to be bilingual.
I can only speak one language so can most of the people I know. But I am an American. We seem to be linguistically xenophobic. I have taken German and Spanish classes. I have also picked up a few things from other languages. Of course I have forgotten most of what I learned. My problems lies in the fact that I have no exposure to any other language. I used to work at a place with a number of hispanics. I learned more spanish by listening to them at breaktime then I did in two years of high school spanish. Those of you who live across the pond often have more exposure to other languages as well as a more accepting attitude.
In the SR world. Things are likely different in North America. A wider variety of cultures and laguages in will increase the proximity factor as well as exposure. I would assume the average North American in SR in more likely to be bilingual.
| QUOTE (KnightRunner) |
| About the language thing. I can only speak one language so can most of the people I know. But I am an American. We seem to be linguistically xenophobic. I have taken German and Spanish classes. I have also picked up a few things from other languages. Of course I have forgotten most of what I learned. My problems lies in the fact that I have no exposure to any other language. I used to work at a place with a number of hispanics. I learned more spanish by listening to them at breaktime then I did in two years of high school spanish. Those of you who live across the pond often have more exposure to other languages as well as a more accepting attitude. In the SR world. Things are likely different in North America. A wider variety of cultures and laguages in will increase the proximity factor as well as exposure. I would assume the average North American in SR in more likely to be bilingual. |
If population growth rates etc remain as predicted it's quite simple to assume that more and more americans might evnetual speak english as a second language. Further the balkanization of North America might certainly lead to greater prominence of several languages.
Even if you assume the vast majority of the NAN speaks English instead of Tribal languages there is certainly a potential increase there. If Aztlan adopts Nahuatl I can see that gaining some adherents as well. Increases in Japanese language use are built into the system. Increases in Chinese and Hindi language use should also be evident.
Overall despite the incredibly crappy job the US education system does in teaching native English speakers other languages there is really not reason to expect that increased literacy in other languages (if only pidgin forms thereof) would be evident in the future.
That's a US centric point of view. A lot of people speak several languages, maybe not very good but they can transmit ideas, questions, needs. Mainly because english is so usd around the world these days, most french people I know have at least basic notion of english, and something like one on two can read en english newspaper. But that's already covered in SR3 rules.
In SR world, it depend of the location. But, even without talking about linguo, in Seattle english and japanese are the norm, my guess is most non-isolated people talk at least a bit of both. Of course, you don't expect the Renraku Arcology shaikujin to speak anything else than japanese, but that's easy to house rule if you want to create that kind of PC (and BECKS already does it).
For Shadow or Street people, in top of that, come linguo. The SR3 rules are not perfect, but mainly they get the job done. They just lack some non technical data about them, and more use for them in sourcebook, adventures, and so on.
Frankly, the 6th world could have gone the other way around... with linguasoft, electronics and computer translation software (even audio/real time), most people *could* have stop bother about it, take a chip or a software for english and japanese and be done with it. I guess some are. Not on the shadows or the streets, the 6th world has gone somewhat the other way around, part because of awakened people, part because of the shadow jobs needing real skills and not electronic aproximations.
And don't forget that several centuries ago the "world language" was french, mid 20th it was both english and russian, nowadays it's english, and in the 6th world it may well be japanese at least in the corp and tech standards. They have the most used worldwide money, they have/had more economic weight than all other countries united (5 AAA over 8, and some bigs AA and A too ? For on small forsaken island ?
), and on a lot of cities streets their culture is omnipresent.
In SR world, it depend of the location. But, even without talking about linguo, in Seattle english and japanese are the norm, my guess is most non-isolated people talk at least a bit of both. Of course, you don't expect the Renraku Arcology shaikujin to speak anything else than japanese, but that's easy to house rule if you want to create that kind of PC (and BECKS already does it).
For Shadow or Street people, in top of that, come linguo. The SR3 rules are not perfect, but mainly they get the job done. They just lack some non technical data about them, and more use for them in sourcebook, adventures, and so on.
Frankly, the 6th world could have gone the other way around... with linguasoft, electronics and computer translation software (even audio/real time), most people *could* have stop bother about it, take a chip or a software for english and japanese and be done with it. I guess some are. Not on the shadows or the streets, the 6th world has gone somewhat the other way around, part because of awakened people, part because of the shadow jobs needing real skills and not electronic aproximations.
And don't forget that several centuries ago the "world language" was french, mid 20th it was both english and russian, nowadays it's english, and in the 6th world it may well be japanese at least in the corp and tech standards. They have the most used worldwide money, they have/had more economic weight than all other countries united (5 AAA over 8, and some bigs AA and A too ? For on small forsaken island ?
), and on a lot of cities streets their culture is omnipresent.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Heh, I've actually seen and thumbed through a Japanese phrase book that provided entries with categories like "If you hear this, walk away slowly and politely.", and "Get out of there immediately" and included various phrases for locating prostitutes and strip clubs. Seems like a handy book to have for most runners. |
I have heard from one of my friends about an Italian phrase book which contained the phrases "I am an anarchist" and "I have a venereal disease".
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