 NSRCG - 4th Edition ?, Looking for programmers |
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 Aug 22 2005, 01:54 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450  |
I'm making this topic, expecting it to die. Was there anyone that was going to make an SR4 CG such as the creator of the NSRCG? If there wasn't, I was proposing this...
I'm a stupid programming student, starting my second year in tech college at WWTC in Wisconsin. I love SR and I like how someone made the NSRCG. Props to them. However, I'd like to contribute something to the SR cause as well. Poor me...stuck in a small tech college learning about bussiness programming rather then engineering programming. But I want to get better! I want to learn as much about programming as I can...and I know a simple tech college won't do it. But it's a start. So here's what I'm proposing. I'd like to start getting together with maybe a team of experienced programmers to start work on SR4's CG. It'd be an interesting challange to program an application like that, and I'd get to learn more about programming for school and work. I understand a lot of you good programmers are rolling your eyes at this point. "God, he's such a n00b." "I can code in my sleep." "I can reverse engineer Half-Life 2...in basic!" I understand this and will shut up now. ;_; It was just a thought, but I know none of you would want to work with a lowly tech-college student like myself. You could do better...so never mind. |
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Aug 22 2005, 02:01 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450 |
Well...frag.
Please ignore this topic now. I just saw the topic on the other page and know there's no way I could help or compete. Sorry to waste space, guys. |
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Aug 22 2005, 02:05 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
Don't be so hard on yourself. If you are focused you can contribute. Python is not very difficult to learn. There is a lot of source out there for you to learn from.
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Aug 22 2005, 02:12 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
<Rolling my eyes> "What an amateur, only amateurs would re-engineer Halflife-2 in Basic! Professionals use E-Lisp" :D
I think for an SR4 Chargen one should wait until: a) The books (at least Basic Rules) are available in the b) McMackie has stated wether he wants to tackle it c) Ask TPTB wether they plan to do one If b) and c) decline (And as one who plans his switch in 12-18month if not later I hope McMackie does and keeps up his great SR3 work) than we should think about setting up a project on sourceforge, agree on a language (I suggest JAVA, alternatively JAVA or maybe JAVA) and other stuff and get the thing going. Birdy |
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Aug 22 2005, 02:29 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450 |
O.o
o.O O.O o.o -.- ;_; Ok...I'm lost now. What's e-lisp? And what's python? And why does Java seem so appealing when my instructors still refuse to teach me to design my own window layouts? God, I'm so out of my league... |
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Aug 22 2005, 02:43 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
I personally recommend using Konfabulator:
- the framework is small (<10MB) and free (it cost $20.00USD previously) - uses Javascript (no compiler required) and XML - the GUI is easy to build and customize - cross-platform (no Linux version - yet) - since Konfabulator widgets include all source code, end-users can review code and submit bugfixes, customizations, and enhancements |
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Aug 22 2005, 03:11 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450 |
Konfabulator looks more like a novalty programmer then an actual programming enviroment. Sure, it uses neat graphics, but that's not programming. That's making things look neat.
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Aug 22 2005, 03:18 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 30-May 03 From: Tulsa, OK Member No.: 4,652 |
Why not just forge ahead with your program? Just because one team is doing it, doesn't mean another program is a bad idea. And if it gets to that point, everyone can just agree on an XML data format so people can use whichever program they prefer.
Choice is good! |
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Aug 22 2005, 03:24 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
E-Lisp: Under that strange text adventure claiming to be an Operating System (UNIX of which LINUX is but one version) there is a great LISP Interpreter that also functions as a useable Text-Editor (EMACS). Well actually it was designed as a text editor with an integrated LISP Interpreter so that one can enhance it's functionallity. LISP is one of the so-called AI languages based IIRC on logic comparisons and such. E-LISP is the version build into the EMACS editor system. PHYTHON is a scripting language for IIRC Web-generation Btw: EMACS is rumored to stand for "Eight megabytes and continualy swapping" Back when it was designed, 8MegaBytes was a HUGE! main memory. As for JAVA: + Use a non-SUN Layout manager like Table-Layout + Use an IDE like ECLIPSE or JBUILDER + JAVA's Windowing System (SWING) is powerful but complicated. You have to understand the language (Not! The libraries) before you can make use of it. Birdy |
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Aug 22 2005, 03:30 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450 |
Well, I've been taught on Eclipse, and I believe that that is what we're learning. But remember, I don't have the money for a nice 4-year computer science degree. I had to settle for a 2 year bussiness programming degree. So everything I'm learning is bussiness oriented. Which means, for some wacky reason, that I'm learning RPG and VB above nice programming languages like Java. Java is being taught, but we've been told it will never be our focus. ;_;
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Aug 22 2005, 04:48 PM
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#11
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Kage and I intend to give a generator a go at this time despite the lack of many supplimental books simply because of that lack of information. With only the main rules in hand, we can forge ahead an make a generator for now with what will -- hopefully -- be an extensible architecture that can incorporate supplimental rules at a later date. We're going to work in python -- because Kage knows it and I want to learn it anyway -- and I'll probably be doing an online component as well to provide the ability to generate and/or store characters online for reference, back-up, or -- of course -- online gaming.
At this point we aren't worrying about sourceforge or other development platforms of that type only because we're not even through the planning phases (hell, I haven't finished reading the rules) so we'll burn this bridge when we get to it. |
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Aug 22 2005, 04:49 PM
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#12
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Who? Edit: ah -- the powers that be. had to look that one up. |
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Aug 22 2005, 07:42 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
I fail to see how having pretty graphics makes Konfabulator less of an 'actual' programming environment. That's as absurd as saying Mac OS X isn't a real OS because it's just too beautiful. Don't be so quick to judge a book by its cover... Konfabulator is a free, small, and easy-to-use scripting framework; that sounds perfect for a hobbist project. Consider the people that are going to be working on this; some may be professional programmers (who'll have no problem picking up Javascript if they don't already know it). Others will be web developers or bloggers with Javascript experience already. Finally, some will just be enthusiastic kids or amateurs with little or no programming experience; they'll need something quick and easy to learn. Among the short list of languages that fit that bill, Javascript stands out. I've tried Python, and I have nothing personally against it, but I think may be overkill for a project like this. |
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Aug 22 2005, 07:54 PM
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#14
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
nevermind -- i was confused as to what konfabulator was but found the link above. Actually looks like it could probably be applied to this task but the downside is that people would need to download konfabulator to make it work. Not a major problem, I know, but we were looking for a solution with as little downloading as possible.
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Aug 22 2005, 08:46 PM
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#15
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
lemme toss in my word for going for it. Hell, i have NO programming experience, and i'm semi-working on an SR-3 Vehicle Garage, that if nothing else might give me the experience to move things along more quickly for an SR-4 version... I'm working in Flash BTW, which is, for the most part, definately not a "programing" environment.
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Aug 22 2005, 09:02 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,420 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,776 |
You and I both know you haven't worked on The Garage in a couple weeks now, and even before that your last real update hasn't been in over a month (closer to two). Sorry, but I just don't think you'll be up to helping that much on this. |
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Aug 22 2005, 09:35 PM
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#17
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Easy now. Not making any judgement calls here, but I think we can probably use help from just about any source. Be it with entering information on gear statistics to testers to UI designers to whatever. If your niche isn't applicative programming, then we can hopefully find the help for you elsewhere.
Also, I would argue that flash is a programming environment with a tightly bound interface system, but that may be just me. I rarely use flash for anything more than simple tools, but I've done some pretty wonderful things with it. The downside is that there's no standalone player for flash files without having a full instalation of Macromedia Flash to work from. |
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Aug 22 2005, 10:09 PM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Does he own the intellectual property or a first-refusal license to such? I was not aware.
Well, since it's the lightest-weight fully-featured language I've worked with yet, I'm not sure I'd agree with the "overkill" estimation… care to expand?
Ugh, you have my sympathies. We'll do our best to make sure you get a taste of computer science, not just code-monkeying.
Sourceforge muyo. We've got resources enough to set up some variety of version control system ourselves. Incidentally, that's a question that we should address up-front: my personal preference is to release the program under the BSD license. Any thoughts?
Already planning on having everything be in a format with a well-constructed W3C scheme for use in other tools. *Phew* Anything else? ~J |
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Aug 23 2005, 12:58 AM
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#19
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
I wasn't saying i'd be joining in the effort, i was just giving him my support, lack of experience or not. But maybe i will work on the garage tonight. |
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Aug 23 2005, 02:24 AM
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#20
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I have no experience with releasing licensed programs so I'm willing to defer to someone who understands what they all mean. Or, you can try to explain it to me, but I've had little luck understanding such things before.
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Aug 23 2005, 02:37 AM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
In this case it's very simple: the terms of the BSD license are, translated from Legalese to plain English, as follows: "do whatever you want with the code as long as you give me/us credit."
The other primary option would be the GPL (which I have issues with, but could live with producing software under), which roughly states "if you alter and redistribute the code you must offer the source to your changes to them at request under this license and free of further restriction." ~J |
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Aug 23 2005, 03:55 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
Do you plan on doing anything with TCP/IP sockets, or filesystem calls? Will the application run as a multiuser server of some sort? Does it need threading? Encryption? Will you be coding any parts of the program in C for speed or efficiency? As for the GUI, with the default Tcl/Tk serve all your needs? Or would you want to use something more substantial, such as Qt? WxWindows even? Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but I'm thinking you need basic file I/O capabilities to read (and possibly update) several data tables (gear lists, spell lists, etc.). If the data is kept in flat text/XML files, then you'll also need an XML parser. A relational database would be nice, but then you've got to consider how the end-user is going to update their tables. You record the end-user's selections as they move from screen to screen, prompting them for additional info when necessary, or warning them of incompatable choices. When the choices are complete, you write them out to an XML text file and put them in a directory (along with any essential graphics or stylesheets). Or, you could output the file as a graphic, or even a PDF. Short of the graphic output, nothing strikes me as really needing anything from Python's hefty module catalog. In fact, I'd say just about any language with basic file I/O could do the trick. This doesn't mean Python is the wrong language for the tool; but it doesn't make it stand out from the pack, either. The only negative to Python (as I see it) is if you'll be relying heavily on volunteers for coding; you may not find as many coders familar with Python as you might with other languages. But then again, the same could be said of just about any language short of Java or C these days.
There's also the Creative Commons licenses, but they're really just shades of gray between BSD and GPL. Unless someone really feels the need to split hairs, my recommendation would be BSD. |
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Aug 23 2005, 06:00 AM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
As far as I can tell it will—it's what I've planned on using. Our graphical needs are not likely to be large.
Certainly—the task doesn't lend itself to being best implemented in a specific language, at least not one that I can see. The advantage to Python is that it's easy to learn, easy to use, and fast to develop in.
Python's pretty easy to pick up, though—we may not have as much deep familiarity, but honestly it doesn't sound like it will be necessary. On a more complex project having a tool that everyone was already familiar with would be more important, but I don't see it being an issue now. Thanks for the feedback, though, I do appreciate other perspectives. ~J |
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Aug 23 2005, 12:12 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450 |
The thing about new languages in programming, as many of you may already know, is that no matter what the new languages, they all follow a set of syntax rules. If statements, arrays, calling modules. No matter the language, the way these things work is the same. Once you know how to make these things work and how the logic is put together, new languages become easier and easier to understand.
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Aug 23 2005, 12:57 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
Fair enough. I'm an experienced scripter, but a relative Python novice. If there's anything I can do to help, you know how to reach me :).
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