I'm making this topic, expecting it to die. Was there anyone that was going to make an SR4 CG such as the creator of the NSRCG? If there wasn't, I was proposing this...

I'm a stupid programming student, starting my second year in tech college at WWTC in Wisconsin. I love SR and I like how someone made the NSRCG. Props to them. However, I'd like to contribute something to the SR cause as well. Poor me...stuck in a small tech college learning about bussiness programming rather then engineering programming. But I want to get better! I want to learn as much about programming as I can...and I know a simple tech college won't do it. But it's a start. So here's what I'm proposing.

I'd like to start getting together with maybe a team of experienced programmers to start work on SR4's CG. It'd be an interesting challange to program an application like that, and I'd get to learn more about programming for school and work. I understand a lot of you good programmers are rolling your eyes at this point. "God, he's such a n00b." "I can code in my sleep." "I can reverse engineer Half-Life 2...in basic!" I understand this and will shut up now. ;_; It was just a thought, but I know none of you would want to work with a lowly tech-college student like myself. You could do better...so never mind.

Well...frag.

Please ignore this topic now. I just saw the topic on the other page and know there's no way I could help or compete. Sorry to waste space, guys.

Don't be so hard on yourself. If you are focused you can contribute. Python is not very difficult to learn. There is a lot of source out there for you to learn from.

<Rolling my eyes> "What an amateur, only amateurs would re-engineer Halflife-2 in Basic! Professionals use E-Lisp"

I think for an SR4 Chargen one should wait until:

a) The books (at least Basic Rules) are available in the
b) McMackie has stated wether he wants to tackle it
c) Ask TPTB wether they plan to do one

If b) and c) decline (And as one who plans his switch in 12-18month if not later I hope McMackie does and keeps up his great SR3 work) than we should think about setting up a project on sourceforge, agree on a language (I suggest JAVA, alternatively JAVA or maybe JAVA) and other stuff and get the thing going.


Birdy

O.o
o.O
O.O
o.o
-.-
;_;

Ok...I'm lost now. What's e-lisp? And what's python? And why does Java seem so appealing when my instructors still refuse to teach me to design my own window layouts? God, I'm so out of my league...

I personally recommend using Konfabulator:

- the framework is small (<10MB) and free (it cost $20.00USD previously)
- uses Javascript (no compiler required) and XML
- the GUI is easy to build and customize
- cross-platform (no Linux version - yet)
- since Konfabulator widgets include all source code, end-users can review code and submit bugfixes, customizations, and enhancements

Konfabulator looks more like a novalty programmer then an actual programming enviroment. Sure, it uses neat graphics, but that's not programming. That's making things look neat.

Why not just forge ahead with your program? Just because one team is doing it, doesn't mean another program is a bad idea. And if it gets to that point, everyone can just agree on an XML data format so people can use whichever program they prefer.

Choice is good!

Well, I've been taught on Eclipse, and I believe that that is what we're learning. But remember, I don't have the money for a nice 4-year computer science degree. I had to settle for a 2 year bussiness programming degree. So everything I'm learning is bussiness oriented. Which means, for some wacky reason, that I'm learning RPG and VB above nice programming languages like Java. Java is being taught, but we've been told it will never be our focus. ;_;

Kage and I intend to give a generator a go at this time despite the lack of many supplimental books simply because of that lack of information. With only the main rules in hand, we can forge ahead an make a generator for now with what will -- hopefully -- be an extensible architecture that can incorporate supplimental rules at a later date. We're going to work in python -- because Kage knows it and I want to learn it anyway -- and I'll probably be doing an online component as well to provide the ability to generate and/or store characters online for reference, back-up, or -- of course -- online gaming.

At this point we aren't worrying about sourceforge or other development platforms of that type only because we're not even through the planning phases (hell, I haven't finished reading the rules) so we'll burn this bridge when we get to it.

nevermind -- i was confused as to what konfabulator was but found the link above. Actually looks like it could probably be applied to this task but the downside is that people would need to download konfabulator to make it work. Not a major problem, I know, but we were looking for a solution with as little downloading as possible.

lemme toss in my word for going for it. Hell, i have NO programming experience, and i'm semi-working on an SR-3 Vehicle Garage, that if nothing else might give me the experience to move things along more quickly for an SR-4 version... I'm working in Flash BTW, which is, for the most part, definately not a "programing" environment.

Easy now. Not making any judgement calls here, but I think we can probably use help from just about any source. Be it with entering information on gear statistics to testers to UI designers to whatever. If your niche isn't applicative programming, then we can hopefully find the help for you elsewhere.

Also, I would argue that flash is a programming environment with a tightly bound interface system, but that may be just me. I rarely use flash for anything more than simple tools, but I've done some pretty wonderful things with it. The downside is that there's no standalone player for flash files without having a full instalation of Macromedia Flash to work from.

I have no experience with releasing licensed programs so I'm willing to defer to someone who understands what they all mean. Or, you can try to explain it to me, but I've had little luck understanding such things before.

In this case it's very simple: the terms of the BSD license are, translated from Legalese to plain English, as follows: "do whatever you want with the code as long as you give me/us credit."

The other primary option would be the GPL (which I have issues with, but could live with producing software under), which roughly states "if you alter and redistribute the code you must offer the source to your changes to them at request under this license and free of further restriction."

~J

The thing about new languages in programming, as many of you may already know, is that no matter what the new languages, they all follow a set of syntax rules. If statements, arrays, calling modules. No matter the language, the way these things work is the same. Once you know how to make these things work and how the logic is put together, new languages become easier and easier to understand.

Fair enough. I'm an experienced scripter, but a relative Python novice. If there's anything I can do to help, you know how to reach me .

i thought that the Python project that is currently under way was going to be a char. gen. for the Mac...am i missing something? i probably am since i was under the impression that Python was only for the Mac (maybe Unix) - is it, or does it run on Windows too?

anyway crystal, i say that if you want to write your own char. gen., or any other SR program, then go ahead...people will use what they like best and, even if no one else uses yours, you'll at least use it...right?

also, in answer to your other question: i am currently planning to begin work on an SR4 char. gen. (why not...seems everyone else is . i have been working on a package of SR3 programs for about 8 months now. it started when i found the NSRCG. i think that it's somewhat difficult to navigate and the .dat files cumbersome to edit *turns to start running from the gunfire* and i felt that i could do better (an admitidly unfounded opinion). i consider myself a novice programmer mind you and i am in no way dismissing what mcmackie has done thus far. i just feel that the learning curve on using the NSRCG is high and that the NSRCG includes too much clutter (like becks and sum to 10) - thought note that these are only clutter to me, and therefor is only my opinion. *begins to expect no one to use his apps based on his opinion of the extrainious char. gen. systems*

however, these are only secondary and tertiary reasons for me going ahead with this project...the main reason is that i feel there are a lot of good programs out there - just none that work in conjunction with each other. my goal is to release a package of programs that all work together. and then, as demand dictates, i can release addon-programs (if i don't include a vehicle generator right away, then i can add one later and the vehicles it creates can be imported directly onto your character's sheet, etc.)

i should be ready to release this set of programs by the end of the year...and as soon as i get my copy of SR4, i'm going to begin revising this suite to suit SR4.

side notes: i do like that each character comes out of the NSRCG as a .sr3 file - so far mine's not that savvy. also, i think that shadowghost's programs look amazing and i'm going to leave the Mac world to him. *begins to miss his iBook*

no python, AFAIK, is an OS independant program, although that brings up an interesting point 5that i think was made in regards to my flash program
(in that you need the flash pleyer for it) don't you also need to download the python stuff as well? the only program i have that uses python (openRPG) requires a pair of python programs to be installed as well.

As I understand it, Kagetenshi, our python guy, knows of a way to bundle things up so that there's just one .exe to download in order to make the character generator work. He'll probably have more informaiton when he finds this post

*slightly off topic*

hey Kagetenshi - were you at gen-con this year? just trying to figure out if we've met and i didn't know all this time that you were huge into decking.

Sadly I was not. I'd originally intended to go, but a few things came up that I needed to be around here for.

~J

well, i'd like to use this time to send out a feeler:

i'm using vb.net 2005 beta 2 (which uses .net 2.0 - which no one has) and i'm waiting for the full version to come out (maybe it's out...i haven't kept up) so that i can 'bootstrap' .net 2.0 onto the program...my question is:

do you think i should buy vb.net 2005 for the install wizard feature and the bootstrap feature, or do you think people would be willing to go and dowload .net 2.0 on their own and then download my stuff and try to save it in the right place on their machine?

the point of why i'm doing this to begin with is to make it as user-friendly as possible...but visual studio stuff is expensive!

How big is the .net d/l these days? 20-30mb? I doubt you'll get dial-up users (or even casual computer users) to go for that. You're probably better off with vb.net.

Oh, btw, prepare to be stoned by the anti-Wintel/Open-source brigade...

*Gathering rocks as we speak*

Seriously, if you already own it that's one thing, but I'd definitely suggest against buying it—something other than VB.net might be the better solution here.

~J

Well, that changes things dramatically. I'd say that requiring your users to download something additional is undesirable, so the question comes down to the following: which of these three possibilities is the least distasteful to you?

1) Spending a fair amount of time rewriting the program in something else
2) Spending a fair amount of money buying VB.net 2005
3) Restricting your userbase to those willing to download a sizable extra component (keeping in mind that it's already restricted to Windows users and that there will be generator competition this time around)

~J

well, i'm not rewriting it now...that would suck.

though i'm curious...if you write a program in something like Python or Java, will it work on Mac and Win? or do you write it for one and then it's easily ported to the other?

It works on both. It has a separate interpreter which is already written for both platforms.

~J

archimagus,

I disagree with the others here. Though vb.net of any version is not what I would choose to write this in, I doubt that a download of 20-30mb one time is going to disuade the vast majority of poeple who would use this. People here tend to cry for the dial-up users, but I think that is an increasingly smaller portion of your audience. You already have much code written, and if they want to use something that you've spent your valuable time developing, they have to spend the one-time pain of a large, but reasonable download. If they think it's too big, then they don't have to use your program.

The others are, of course, entitled to their opinions. I would rather have a released version of something that works and have a big download, than to have to wait another 6 months for you to convert to another language.

If you want to be the real hero, then release it quickly however you like and make the source code available for other people to convert it to whatever they like on their own time.

Kudos for you for making the time and writing something to help us all.

Basically, .NET is (among other things) a common executable and library format. You can compile programs in languages that are .NET compatible into this common format, and then use the functions, objects, procedures, whatever, in those programs from any other .NET programming language. In other words, there's nothing to prevent you from reusing the code you've developed in VB.NET in languages such as C++.NET, C#.NET, etc. ie, if you want to switch to these other languages, you don't have to rewrite what you've written just because you switched the language.

One of the target formats for the .NET executables is the CLI, which (according to my limited and potentially flawed understanding -- check it yourself) is apparently something like the Java bitcode. It's compiled to a binary code that is then interpreted (and sometimes just-in-time compiled) by the .NET runtime in order to run the program.

It's theoretically possible to take this binary code (the CLI) and actually compile it to native hardware binary in advance so the end user doesn't have to have the .NET runtime, but I don't know if they've developed the tools for it.

ok, i've done some googling and found that my knowlege level is really what's holding me back here. let me explain:

the reason i'm using 'vb.net 2005 express beta 2' to begin with is that it was free and it included a graphical 'window builder' (just like visual studio has had in the past). i can make the window 'canvas' the size i want and then fill it with stuff like drop-down menus and buttons by just draging them onto my window.

i know nothing about the code that creates these items because that's all done for me - all i know is the code that lets me manipulate these objects once they're there.

is there something like this for java? or do i just finish my program in vb.net and then convert everything to java at that time? and will my windows and buttons and things go along for the conversion?

i've found some converters online, but they all seem to work with VB6 and eariler...is it even possible to convert such a new environment to java?

i don't expect anyone to actually have answers to these questions...i just wanted to pose them to see what i get back.

thanks - i appreciate the help so far...there's no reason for you to do it.

i would like to take this opportunity to apologize to crystal for high-jacking her thread...i only just realized what i've done and i would like to reiterate that i started this thing 6 months ago for the same reason as you - to learn a new language...and now i know vb.net and a lot of XML.

trying your hand at something like this is a great idea and i do not want to be the one to stop you...no software developer out there stops creating new software just because someone else has a similar product, and you shouldn't either.

have fun and let me know if you want your thread back!