Final note on .NET and JAVA (I was forced to use the former and love the latter)

+ .NET 2.0 and more important the Visual Studio(VS) 2005 IDE will come out after the next OS-Version. Currently they are still Beta (not even Release Candidate) and have been since January

+ They keep killing promised (and much needed) stuff like an Object/Relational (O/R) Mapper[Handles matching between classes and SQL databases] or the VB.NET class editor. To date the only good thing is the new Version Control System. But that one is good!

+ The VS has an Installer-Generator (Look under Projects, there is a setup project) that can bundle the stuff. IIRC including the .NET Runtime. At least my VS 2003 (.NET 1.1) does

+ The VS does generate GUI-code. You can view it if you open all the (+) folded code IIRC

+ VS has a some free third party stuff. About 1/4 to 1/3 of what JAVA has. Most of it is less mature than i.e the Apache Stuff but can be quite useful like nHibernate O/R mapper


+ Both JDeveloper (from Oracle, free for evaluation) and JBuilder (from Borland, Base version is free) offer GUI-Builders for JAVA. JDeveloper 9 and 10 are useable but the Borland stuff is 2-3 classes better. Currently 1 class better than the MS Visual Studios when it comes to usability

+ Java GUI-generators generate pure Java Code that can be changed by hand. Most of the time, they even understand and display the changed code

+ JAVA is not really designed for GUI-Builders unless you use either a simple layout or no layout at all. In the latter case, set the size of any frames to "fixed" or your layout will "break". Better use a layout manager

+ Forget the JDK-integrated layout managers like GridBag. Use a simple and rugged one like the Table-Layout https://tablelayout.dev.java.net/ and also look into alternate L&F "skins" like JGoodies https://looks.dev.java.net/ We used both in a large project and they are easy to use, stable and look good.

+ Don't buy the "multi language hype" of VS. Choose one of the VS languages and learn it for good. Since they all end up the the same ByteCode (or Intermediate Language as MS calls it) and all get interpreted by the same Virtual Maschine (or .NET Runtime in MS parlance) speed is about the same as is functionality. There are a few special jobs that call for MS JAVA err C# (generally the better language to learn than VB.NET and a bit better supported) but for 95% of the job, VB.NET get's it done if you use it's Object Oriented features


Birdy

thanks for all the info. birdy!

some things i've found, for what it's worth:

i can't seem to find a converter for vb to java for anything after VB6...i think i'll stick with my .net stuff (unless i come across something new).

with that in mind:

the 2005 express beta version does not have a setup project...to quote microsoft:

"Microsoft’s Beta EULA does not permit production deployments of customer applications."

they are, however, planing to release a 'go-live' license for the beta 2. this may be a more affordable option for me - opposed to purchasing the full vb.net 2005 in november (which is when it's slated to release). although, this does not look promising:

"TIME SENSISTIVE SOFTWARE. PORTIONS OF THE PRE-RELEASE SOFTWARE ARE DESIGNED TO CEASE FUNCTIONING ON SPECIFIC DATES."

i hate microsoft. but maybe this go-live license will stop that.

(EDIT: they are not planing to release a 'go-live' license...they have one...i signed it and that didn't really do anything...i think it's just so i can distribute my apps. without worry that MS will b**ch and moan anymore than they already do. i was hoping that i would get some kind of 'key' that, when typed into 2005 express would open up a setup project and stop the self-distruct mode)

thanks everyone for all the help! i'm just going to keep working on the code till i have a better idea of how best to release it (should be by the end of the year at the latest)

Let me know if you guys need webspace, I have a dedicated server with gallons of bandwidth and hosting space I would love to doante to the cause. Or if theres anything else you need let me know.

I don't really expect overflowing the 217 gigs transfer I've got available plus whatever Dashifen's got, but if we do we'll give you a call, thanks

~J

i'm reading the thread you guys have going in the general shadowrun room about your program and, while my program encompases the same ideals as yours, i feel out-matched by your programming skills (and crippled by mine being windows only and requiring the download of .net 2.0).

frankly, i'm disheartened...

i've been checking out Python over the last couple of hours...my brain hurts...

it reminds me of programming in school - you can make all the programs you want that are non-gui...i can't seem to find any documentation that explains how to make a program that will open a window and put buttons, ect., into said window.

this is why i jumped at the chance to use vb.net 2005 beta - you can create your windows graphicly by drag-and-dropping the items you want onto a window 'canvas'...no learning curve there.

i'm just way too tired right now to be attempting this...python looks pretty cool though...any suggestions on web-references i can use to figure this stuff out? i can make functions all day...logic i get...it's creating a gui that i don't get.

This may be useful for that.

~J

Actually, there's a half a million GUI packages out there. Tkinter is the one we're intending to use since it's cross platfrom (Windows, *nux, Mac) compatible. Others are just windwos or just *nix. Seriously, though, archimagus, don't feel disheartened at this point. I don't think neither Kagetenshi nor myself mind if you're working in competition with us on a program, nor do we mind if you help us out with ours. Hopefully now that Kagetenshi has a nice shiny new PDF all of his own we'll start some hard core design.

I'll agree, I can't code worth my right pinky, but i'm still TRYING to build the vehicle generator, which, i think in many regards, is alot more difficult than a character generator, because of the options involved. (Things like you need THIS to do THAT). honestly, some of those things might not EVER happen, but it's the experience, and the painerrr pleasure i get from doing it (dont you dare comment slacker...)

Archmagius, so you you're using .net because of the GUI correct? Perhaps you could try doing what i'm doing, and writing it in flash with actionscript. It would be cross platform, and i think, with some work, it will fully do a charcter sheet (so far, it's handling my poor skills in making the vehicle creator).

Flash is actually a pretty powerful programming environment with a tightly bound graphical GUI creation toolkit, from a certain point of view. The down side is the inability to write to the filesystem but that can be dealt with by going through a web server to a database if necessary.

it's a work in progress, currently, down the thread as Shadowrunners Vehicle garage. The only (semi) working part is the ATV's, under bikes. yes, it's kinda broke. Yes, i'm woprking on it.

And amazingly enough, he really is working on the Vehicle Garage for a change.

You just don't cut him a break, do you Slacker

no he doesnt, and thinkgs are just gonna get worse, i finally got employed lol

Yeah, that was the doom of my spare programming time. Now I only get to program over lunch or in the evenings if I beg my wife (that's for fun programming, I program professionally, too).

ya know, i've considered going BACK to school for programming but i donno lol... I have reservations of all the jobs going over seas

Actually, I have been cutting him a lot of slack lately. But that is only because I have seen him returning to work on it.

Early on, Aku was energetic about the Vehicle Garage project, but it wasn't long before his interest wained. It's good to see him with more energy devoted to it now.

Really, he's made quite a bit of progress on it in the last few days. Hopefully, his new job won't slow it that much.

aww, come on slacker, you hope for too much. You should know by now that a light breezed in my general direction will make me batton down the hatches lol