Staging, ...how many successes? Options

[Wonazer]

Ok, according pg 114 SR3, I get to up the damage code for every two successes.

My question is this: Is that taking into account the one success it takes to initially hit? If so it seems a little out of balance.

From the book...
Heavy Pistol - 9M
1 Success - M
2 Successes - S
3 Successes - N/A
4 Successes - D

In essence, it stages on 1-2-4-6, etc.

Too me that seems to early for the first stage up.
I have been running it like this...
Heavy Pistol - 9M
1 Success - M
2 Successes - N/A
3 Successes - S
4 Successes - N/A
5 Successes - D

Staging on 1-3-5-7-9, etc. seems a little more balanced to me.

Like I said in my other thread, am I missing something?

[Slamm-O]

its 2 per damage level, including the 1 to hit, so 2 successes with heavy pistol = 9s, 4 = 9d, 6 =11d (i think thats the way sr3 handles going past deadly, you add to power)

[Wonazer]

[Thanos007]

[Wonazer]

How is it 11D? Nothing in SR3 states that it goes up if you overflow.

It should only be a rating 9 I have to stage against, minus my armor rating. Granted, I have to stage down a bunch of levels.

[Slamm-O]

dont have the books with me, but i seem to remember that that was one of the things that changed with the move to version 3. This is how spells work i know, as far as drain anyway. Cant say i am 100% sure about normal resistance/codes though.

can someone who has the books check it out?

[Wonazer]

Slamm, you are slightly incorrect about Awakened characters. The only note I can find is on pg. 191 SR3 and it notes that Power is raised instead of Damage Code by +2 for Drain Level. Nothing is said about the damage your opponent takes.

[Abstruse]

I'll dig out my books if you want a real page reference tomorrow morning after I get off work, but for a heavy pistol with base damage code of 9M, the progression is as follows:

0 - Miss
1 - 9M
2 - 9S
4 - 9D
6 - 11D
8 - 13D


It's been that way since at least 2nd Edition when they set staging at a permanent 2 for every weapon.

BTW, it's not that imbalancing when you remember that not everyone in the Shadowrun world has Pistols: 6. In fact, Pistols: 6 would be on the level of a competition shooter. Even Lone Star officers only have a base Pistols rating of 4 (modified by their specialization in their specific weapon).

And if it seems like the gunfights are getting out of hand in damage, I'll bet you money it's because they're not going for cover. The FIRST thing you're taught in any combat training you take is that if someone starts shooting at you, before you do anything else, find some sort of cover. A target they can't see is a target they can't kill. The higher the target numbers to hit are, the less chance the attackers are going to be staging their damage up. If the players aren't going for cover, you can teach them the lesson in one encounter by simply having all the NPCs do so. Once they see that light pistol the ganger has is having a better effect than their shotgun, they'll think twice about standing toe-to-toe in a gunfight.

Watch any gunfight in a movie and you'll see. The people are constantly moving around and dodging from cover to cover in order to make sure they can't be seen and that they're constantly moving. Both of these make them harder to hit and, if they do take a hit, it's less likely to be as accurate. In game terms, this means the target numbers to hit go up, and it's more likely that you'll be able to stage damage down, esp. if you're wearing armor.

The Abstruse One

[Wonazer]

Where does over-damage fit into your equation, Abstruse?

The way it works as I understand it is like this...

0 - Miss
1 - 9M
2 - 9S
4 - 9D
6 - 9 - 1 Box over
8 - 9 - 2 boxes over

Actually, because I do the progression slightly differently, it looks like this...

0 - Miss
1 - 9M
3 - 9S
5 - 9D
7 - 9 - 1 Box over
9 - 9 - 2 Boxes over

[Drain Brain]

It doesn't.

If you take a Deadly wound, that's 10 boxes. Nuff said. You can't get more than 10 from a single shot of ANYTHING (with the exception fo the Deadlier Over-Damage rule, which I can't remember off hand and, IIRC, is optional anyway).

If you're at 10 boxes already and someone pops your prone form for another light wound, then that's one box of your body overflow gone, get it?

You can't go from zero damage to body-overflow in one pop. All you can do with your Heavy pistol example is Medium, Serious, Deadly and Deadly AND harder to resist! Which is what makes the whole thing great. If you've got high skill and good target mods, then your massive number of successes will make a deadly wound that's nigh on impossible to resist, unless you're Bernie the Troll Cyber Zombie... :D

[CanvasBack]

I think everybody needs to take a look at page 114 of the BBB.

From my read, staging happens AFTER both the Target and the Shooter make their respective success tests. The other consequences of this are that the shooter can't make the target's body resistance test higher simply by accruing X number of successes and if the shot isn't dodged, 0 net successes for the shooter can still result in base damage. :eek:

[Drain Brain]

If that's the case then my bad - I've not got the book handy and I have a lousy memory...

[Modesitt]

Drain Brain is right on how it works. It stops at D.

For those of you who say you get overflow after staging to Deadly, you are remembering the rules incorrectly. That is listed as an optional rule on pg 126 of SR3.

[CanvasBack]

I think most people are remembering the rules from SR2. After dealing with variable staging in SR1, SR2's rules on the matter were a very good step in the right direction and would explain why they've "stuck". 8)

[Wonazer]

[Drain Brain]

BBB=Big Black Book. SR3, in other words.

I have no books with me (I'm at work) and so cannot back up ANYTHING of what I say. And, as I said, I have a LOUSY memory. I just waffle at memories which may or may not be valid, as inspired by my fellow posters. So there's no need to get antsy about it...

[Wonazer]

DB, I honestly did not know what the BBB was. I did not know you were referring to SR3.

Speaking of pg. 114 - The closest thing listed: "Deadly damage is the highest level of damage possible."

On pg. 125, "If a character takes more Physical damage than there are boxes in the Physical column, the character is in trouble. Overflowing the Physical column means that the character is near death. Instant death occurs only if damage overflows the Physical column by more than the character's Body Rating. Therefore, a character can take 10 points plus their Body Rating in damage before they die."

[BitBasher]

The rule you are all thinking of it related to melee combat, and only works with Melee combat because the way it is staged is different than ranged combat.

Melee combat is staged BEFORE the damage resistance roll, and any for each 2 sucesses over deadly the power of the attack stages up by one.

Ranged combat is staged AFTER the damage resistance roll, so the power of the attack can not be raised by attacking dice.

In melee combat if you lose by 8 sucesses you resist a (weapon power)D wound with a plus 2 to the power.

In Ranged combat (We'll assume Heavy Pistol with standard ammo) you resist a 9m plus however many sucesses were left over after dodging and damage resistance stes, thich is that staged up to determine how much damage you took.

In melee combat, getting 2 sucesses on damage resistance means you took, at aboslutely maximum, a serious wound. All those extra sucesses above deadly did nothing but raise the power that is eventually resisted, and the max that power can be is a D.

In ranged combat is can be MUCH harder to resist damage, because you can get 2 sucesses (or more) and STILL be taking a D, which is impossible by SR3 canon melee rules.

For that matter, the deadlier overdamage rules only work correctly with firearms for this very reason. Using deadlier overdamage with melee makes melee MUCH MUCH harder to resist than is intended in canon.

[edit] this is evidenced by SR3 pg 109-110 Regarding Ranged Combat:
1) Determine Range
2) Apply Situational Target Modifiers
3) Make Attacker's Success Test
4) Resolve Dodge Test
5) Resolve Target's Damage Resistance Test
6) Determine The Outcome
7) Apply Damage (which includes staging the attack)

And by SR3 pg 122 Regarding Melee Combat:
1) Make Attacker's Success Test
2) Make Defender's Success Test
3) Compare Sucesses
4) Determine Damage (Over deadly each 2 sucesses raises power by one)
5) Resist Damage (Each 2 sucesses lowers wound level by one. period.)

In rangerd combat extra sucess have to be overcome in order to stage attack down, while in melee you need 8 sucesses to take no damage, period.[/edit]

[Kagetenshi]

[Drain Brain]

Yeah, I realise that... NP.

Here's the visualisation (I'm ignoring the stun stuff):

Damage Monitor
PHYSICAL [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] Damage Overflow : [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

Taking a deadly wound from this starting point would result in this:

Damage Monitor
PHYSICAL [*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*] Damage Overflow : [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

whereas starting from here:

Damage Monitor
PHYSICAL [*][*][*][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] Damage Overflow : [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

... and taking a deadly wound would result in this:

Damage Monitor
PHYSICAL [*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*] Damage Overflow : [*][*][*][ ][ ][ ]

And in 18 turns you could be dead.

You haven't taken more than a Deadly wound in either case. You just can't get to the eleventh (twelfth, thirteenth etc) box from a clear, healthy start by taking only ONE WOUND.


As I recall it. ;)

[Kagetenshi]

[Wonazer]

Well, here is a theory that I have seen posted in this thread. You cannot take over damage from one shot.

I say, why not?? Since when can a single bullet NOT kill someone? Why would I have to shoot twice? If I aim properly and execute a controlled fire attempt, and my aim is true, I should be able to paste the target with one bullet. Efficiency is what it is all about anyway.

[Drain Brain]

[Wonazer]

[Drain Brain]

Dude, we're all insane!

[Wonazer]

[CanvasBack]

[Kagetenshi]

Or if it was dodge test successes that moved the total number of successes to zero.

~J

[Cain]

[Kagetenshi]

Overdamage accrues at what, one/combat round? So a typical human (Body 3) with a gunshot wound to the head dies in nine seconds.
Sounds reasonable to me.

~J

[CanvasBack]

[Kagetenshi]

Ok, then I'm wrong.
Pardon me while I now proceed to kill everywho who has viewed this thread in order to remove the evidence.
Mmm, long weekends... :D

~J

[Drain Brain]

[Kagetenshi]

A Deadly wound is whatever the GM says it is, including a headshot. It just isn't any different than ten light pistol shots to the left arm in a single turn.

~J

[edit]And you're right. So it can be kinda silly if the GM decides that it was a headshot, but a troll with a sniper rifle round lodged in his aorta probably would take a really long time to actually die.

[Modesitt]

[BitBasher]

Optional and normal are not paralell, the rule may be optional, but if 99% of all GM's use it, then it is also normal, while not using it would be abnormal. Normal is subjective. I think it stands to reason that nearly everyone, if not everyone here that GM's uses that rule... If they didn't we wouldn't be talking about it like it's fact.

Text in context is a good thing in a conversation :D

[Wonazer]

Modesitt, since that IS an option, let's say I ignore it. Now its rules do not exist, the text is virtually erased from my SR3. With that in mind, I challenge you to find me other text that says over damage cannot be applied in one hit, from a fresh, no wound target.

You can't.

While we have already noted that sometimes the rules do not make sense, there are also times where the rules are put in odd places. Personally, I think one bullet, no matter what its range of damage is, should be able to kill in one shot. Without reading that optional text I find suporting evidence for my theory in the standard section of the rules.

The problem I am having right now is with combat defining text being inserted within optional rules. Why is it that the text that states "the standard damage rules prevent characters from certain death" is located outside of the MAIN OVERDAMAGE paragraph?!? It makes no sense and is what started all of this silly mess.

So now, after reading all the text, I am going to stick by how I do things. I read the standard rules and came to my conclusion, you all say the OD is an option. Either way, it is the same effect in my games. =) So, I guess I run a more deadly game. Shhh... Don't tell my players...

[BitBasher]

Nindaru, because the rules do NOT address something is never a valid argument EVER. The rules do not say that you cannot lasso the moon with a rope, pull real hard and smash it into the bad guy's head.

The rules do not say a literally infinite number of things. This makes that an invalid argument.

We are dealing with what the rules DO say, and with the exception of the optional rule on Deadlier Overdamage the rules never say that that is possible. They do not in fact mention it in any way shape or form. That makes it entirely a GM's call, and whatever he calls is by definition a house rule, since the rules do not address it.

[Drain Brain]

But by that path of thinking, BitBasher, I equally challenge you to find for me, in the rules a means of accruing more than 10 boxes of thysical damage, from a single shot whilst avoiding the Deadlier Overdamage optional rule.

If you can, it's worth a :notworthy: to ya... ;)

[Kagetenshi]

Again, naval damage. Barring that, I'll let someone else try to look if they want.

~J

[Wonazer]

[BitBasher]

Righty-o it's only either naval damage or an option rule. Other than that it doesn't happen.

[Wonazer]

Where is this Naval Damage stuff located? (I just found it amusing because I and a few of my friends are Navy.)

[Catsnightmare]

Naval Damage is in Rigger 3. It's a higher scale of damage used for rating POWERFUL weapons, like naval guns/cannons/railguns, anti-warship missiles and torpedos, and IIRC some heavy tank cannons/railguns.

[Drain Brain]

Yes. It's just as silly, though, as imagining a tank's main weapon. You get shot with that and you're chunky salsa too...

Curse those Naval Weapons... they're too extreme! Why should they need rules for them in SR? I'm breaking into a research facility, damnit, who gives a monkey's nut about railguns?

[Wonazer]

DB, forget rail guns, I want to see someone create a Coilgun a.k.a. Gauss Gun.

[Abstruse]

Because if your rigger is attempting to fly the tbird by the installation, they may have a nice pretty artillery gun waiting for him.

The Abstruse One

[Wonazer]

Hehe... Give me initiative and a Gauss Gun and I ask you... What artillery...? =0

[Kagetenshi]

Because they know runners get into crazy hijinks, and they wanted to have naval damage waiting for them on the other side.
Or because they know sometimes people play Desert Wars campaigns, in which this stuff makes rather a lot of sense.
Also, I'll take a railgun over a gauss gun anyday, as a point of style if nothing else.

~J

[Finbar]

Lets not forget the ever popular, "I shoot them with the super secret research project that we are stealing"
so it's good to know how much damage they take when it backfires. :dead: :twirl: :eek:

[Wonazer]

[BitBasher]

And that's what you get from gathering physics info from the movie Eraser, the movie where the recoil from that gun if it functioned as explained in the movie, could launch the shooter literally into low earth orbit if he shot it at the ground, and the physics worked as they do in the real world.

A gauss gun is the same as a coil gun. A coil gun is functionally very similar to a rail gun except that in the coil gun the projectile never physically touches the "barrel" where in a railgun it does, and a coilgun is a series of sequencial electromagnets whereas the railgun is two long rails that create a current when the projectile makes a current between them. They are both just forms of magnetic acceleration.

www.rollette.com/railgun
"A railgun is a single-turn coil consisting of the power source, rails, and armature. The armature is free to slide along the rails, the Lorentz force causes it to slide along the rails, away from the power source."

http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm
"It accelerates a piece of iron or steel down a tube. The tube runs through a series of electromagnetic coils (like solenoids). There are no sparks or noise or impressive side effects (or parts to wear out). Some careful timing circuits energize each coil in sequence. The principle of magnetic attraction draws the projectile along at rapidly increasing speed."

[Kagetenshi]

Yep. Same effect, but railgun sounds cooler (IMO).
Besides, there are certain points where it no longer matters how fast the projectile is travelling, it's going to blow apart whatever it hits from the sound waves travelling behind it if nothing else.
I don't remember the movie Eraser because I never saw it, and if it contains the information you claim it does, I don't think I'll ever spend my time watching it.

~J

[Siege]

Eraser was actually entertaining as a film, as long as you ignore the Hollywood physics.

Which is true of almost every Hollywood venture.

-Siege

[Wonazer]

Bit, I never want to hear you accuse ME of blurring the line between the real and fantasy! =)

Eraser was not my only source, but it was the most visible and memorable source. I do not suggest seeing the movie for any other reason though. It wasn't that good.

My friend is running a regular 'space game' (his creation; he has yet to name it...) and has hinted at Gauss Gun tech where they accelerate particles (not a solid slug). I get most of my info from him on that. I'll be sure to let him know how you guys feel. =)

[Kagetenshi]

Gauss guns do have one advantage over railguns, mentioned earlier: their projectile doesn't touch anything. Railguns can get well over the speed of sound, but the rails will wear out and need replacement (the faster the projectile, the faster this will happen), while on a gauss gun, if everything goes right the only things to accrue wear and tear will be the capacitors, battery, and whatever gets hit by the recoil.
However, for in-atmosphere uses, they're nigh-identical.

~J

[BitBasher]

hehehe :D

Incidentally accelerating particles in that fachion is pretty much the definition of a PPC or Particle Projection Cannon, or Particle Beam. See "Ghostbusters" for reference :D

[Wonazer]

[Req]

<pleasant computer voice>

Orbital Ion Cannon charging...

</pcv>

[Athenor]

To begin: The naval rules were -FIRST- written for Cyberpirates. You know, that nice, 1997 book (between R2 and SR3) where you go around stealing tankers, merchant ships, coast guard cruisers, and the like? And if you are stealing those ships, it naturally follows that you are going to be facing off against the militaries of the nations you are stealing from -- thus the naval rules, which represent modern naval combat decently well... As in, high on missile combat, and actual naval gun use has fallen to defensive measures.

With R3, they expanded the naval rules to cover MBT's and other land-based installations, due to their size. If a Shadowrunner sees these, 9 times out of 10 they are dead.. and that last time they should have some way to disable them.

So, to the subject at hand, from the top.

I need to begin simply: My books are at home. my memory is shaky in places, but I think I can get my point across in the end.

Weapons do damage based on successes, we all agree to this, right? staging works at 0/+1 is standard damage, with +2/+3 is one higher, and so on, and -1/-2 is one lower, and so on.. So if the attacker gets 5 successes, and the defender gets 5 as well, the damage is the standard code -- and if the defender gets 6, the weapon is staged down a level.

Now, with ranged combat, this works until you hit D or no damage -- and then you stop. the rolls have already been made and compared, so how can you mod them? In my mind, I usually always make sure to roll attack and defense relatively close, so that I don't get into the habit of thinking high dice counts = more damage done.

Earlier, someone asked if there was a way to make combat do more damage than 10 boxes, ignoring the deadlier over-damage rule (which, for the completely insane, would apply to naval weapons. Just think 'bout that for a bit. ;) ). I will easily say that ranged combat cannot do more than 10 boxes at a time... But keep reading, as there is a caveat.

What about close combat? This is somewhat different, as it represents an abstract. the first roll determines simply who gets the advantage that exchange -- the attacker or the defender. Due to the ability to add physical force, not to mention close-in skill of where the attack comes in (and a poorly placed block by one or the other), you -do- get to stage up power on these.. Again, established earlier in the thread. However, if the power gets staged up, the defender does -not- stage down the power before staging down damage. (I would've continued with an example, but I am shaky here. ;) )

so earlier, I asked for a caveat, and for people to keep paying attention. Here's why:

When you take deadly damage, you go into trauma. When you are in trauma, you are taking additional damage every (body) rounds, up to (body). You can stave this off a few ways, either by slowing it or stabilizing it through first aid, or magic, but it is still present.

So yes. Without deadlier over-damage, you can only take 10 boxes at a push. But then, if you are an average human, and barring intervention, you will take another wound 9 seconds later. Then another. Then another. Then you're dead. No turning back. And there, my friend, is how you take more than 10 boxes with the standard rules.

Athenor

PS: See the above example? I would -HIGHLY- recommend that none of you Otaku-types take a body of 1... think about it for a while.

[Kagetenshi]

Bod 1 is actually a good choice for an Otaku. 4 karma later they've got 4 seconds for someone to help them out, and in the meantime they've got all sorts of other bonuses that help keep it from ever being an issue.

~J

[Wonazer]

[Athenor]

Just clarifying, cuz it kinda got chopped up.

But I'll take that deadly naval + falling damage bonus of 50+ KM anyday, wouldn't you? Or at the least, I'll apply B-tech's orbital bombardment rules.

Athenor

[Wonazer]

I don't know. Think about what I Ion weapon would do to your cyberware...

I'd rather get shot. Well, maybe not...

[Kagetenshi]

You've got a lot of choices, all of them bad.

~J

[Wonazer]

Very true.

Here is an off the wall question... Could you dodge an energy, rail or gauss shot?

[Athenor]

I don't believe so. Naval damage rules are area-effect, so you'd have to apply the rules for dodging a grenade blast. Which, of course, bases your TN off of the power that hits you, IIRC.

OTOH, naval weapons cannot target individuals... Your car is fair game, of course. ;)

Athenor

[Kagetenshi]

Naval weapons don't need to target an individual. Just sorta obliterate the general area, it's ok, we don't need it anyway.
As for dodging gauss/railshots, no more than you can dodge a bullet. Dodging is entirely a matter of making sure you're not where the shooter was aiming.

~J

[Wonazer]

Kag, I was thinking that the speeds involved in those particular weapons would work against dodging...

[BitBasher]

Just remember, metahumans have a signature of 6, while trolls have a 5. -1 to that for more than 3 points of essence used and another -1 for each two nanite systems. They sure can shoot you, and if you're a toaster the TN is sickly low =)

"An offshore shelling today occurred and was apparently aimed at Bob. Bob could not be reached for comment"

[Kagetenshi]

Yes, you were, but the thing is that at close range there isn't much difference in terms of dodgability between a bullet travelling at about the speed of sound and a depleted uranium slug shot through a coilgun. You might be able to get your center of mass .01mm more out of the way, but it's insignificant. Even at long range we're not talking much difference at all.
If the projectile is moving and heading on a collision course, it's going to hit you anyway.

~J

[BitBasher]

Yeah, most people glaze over the fact that you CANNOT actually dodge a bullet. What you CAN do, and what is done in shadowrun is you need to not be precisely in line with the end fo the barrel when the bullet is fired. THis entails moving out of the way BEFORE the gun goes off. Yes, you dodged the bullet but only because you forced the shooter to miss, not because you actually DODGED the bullet. :D

[Kagetenshi]

On the other hand, if you get move-by-wire 4 and L4 Muscle Toners, come back and we can talk about actually dodging bullets.

~J

[BitBasher]

[doctor evil voice]
How about ...no...\
[/doctor evil voice]

:grinbig:

[Kagetenshi]

Remember, when dodging bullets, always try to dodge up, because if you duck you're limited to a max speed of 9.81 m/s^2 unless you've got something to pull yourself down with, while your speed upwards is limited only by how well you jump.
And then get angry at your GM for declaring that you exploded from moving too quickly.

~J

[Wonazer]

[John Campbell]

[Kagetenshi]

"Meet my friend, Mr. ANDREWS. He'd like to say hello to your helicopter."

~J

[Dashifen]

Throwing in 2 :nuyen: ....

The way I've always run it is this:

• attacker makes "to hit" roll
• defender makes dodge test
• remaining net successes stage the damage
• damage is resisted

So, for example, Dick has his 9M heavy pistol and is firing at Jane. He gets 3 successes . Jane makes a dodge test and gets 1 success. This results in 2 net successes which stages the damage to 9S. Jane then resists that damage rolling her body against a TN of 9-ballistic armor. We'll say she has a better than average armor rating and gets 4 successes resulting in a light wound (every two success stagest the damage down by 1 level).

As for the over damage rules: they're optional IIRC. I've always felt that they were added to allow for healing time. I generally use the house rule that if you take deadly damage in one shot (like getting hit by an assault cannon) then you are dead. No overdamage, no healing, do not pass go, do not collect 200 :nuyen: . To me, this represents a luck head shot, a good shot to the gut, etc. If you take damage up to deadly over the course of a number of wounds that are not at the D level, then you do get overdamage. This represents falling into uncociousness after suffering extreme physical trauma; you're bleeding to death and if no one helps you soon, you'll die.

The only issue I've ever had with that interpretation is it generally helps the players kill things easier than I can hurt the players. I suppose, however, that depending on their opposition, that should be the case since the players are outfitted and built more powerfully than your average person.

-- Dashifen --