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CoalHeart
post Oct 24 2003, 02:17 PM
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Which meta magics should be taken for which tradition and in what order should they be learned?


Physical Adept
--Melee Master
--Range Master
--Stealth Master
--Perception Master

aspected Mage
--Sorc
--Conjur
--Enchant

Aspected Shaman
--Sorc
--Conjur
--Enchant
--Voodoo

Psionists

Full Mage

Full Shaman
--Voodoo

Magical Adept
--Mage
--Shaman
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TinkerGnome
post Oct 24 2003, 02:21 PM
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The question is less based on the character and more on the game. In many games, every person capable of taking a metamagic needs to take Masking first. In many others, most don't ever need to take it. It's a pretty subjective thing.
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Lilt
post Oct 24 2003, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (CoalHeart)
Which meta magics should be taken for which tradition and in what order should they be learned?


Physical Adept
--Melee Master
--Range Master
--Stealth Master
--Perception Master

aspected Mage
--Sorc
--Conjur
--Enchant

Aspected Shaman
--Sorc
--Conjur
--Enchant

Full Mage

Full Shaman

Magical Adept

EEp. It depends on how you play them. I'll give it my best shot:

Physad is probably Centering followed by centering and more centering. You first learn for stealth&athletics but then can apply to one combat skill at a time (Ie: centering against penalties when shooting a gun? Shweet!).
Perception master I have never realy seen. Perhaps something like tracking (from T:AL, can't recall the exact name or divining from MITS)

For magicians; the same applies to both traditions:
Aspected Elementalist/Shamanist:
Depends on what your totem makes you good at. Probably invoking first for shamanists as it lets you have groups of spirits and access them outside the domain you summon them in. After that it depends what your character does.

Aspected Sorcerer:
Shielding, Centering, Masking, and Anchoring are probably the most important. Take them in whatever order you want.

Aspected Conjurer
Invoking and Chanelling are the musts, Other than that Centering and then Masking helpful.

Enchanter
Centering can aid in enchanting, Probably shielding as some people don't let you make shielding foci without it (makes sense)

Full mage:
All are good. Choose whatever your character leans towards the most above and choose from them. Full Shamans will want Invoking as it lets them have packs of spirits rather than single ones.

Magical Adept:
Centering is almost better for magical adepts than it is for normal adepts. Aside from that use the same advice given to full mages above.

Certain powers (such as masking and anchoring) vary in usefulness depending on how the game is run.
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Tyrrell
post Oct 24 2003, 02:53 PM
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Sorry to jump in to the discussion with a newbie question (that I could probably answer myself if I went home and searched through my books) but physical adepts can get metamagic? Where is this? What metamagics could they use?
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TinkerGnome
post Oct 24 2003, 02:55 PM
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It's in the first bit of the metamagics section in MitS. They can get Centering, Masking, and Divining.

[edit] MitS p 69, under Learning Metamagic, first paragraph, last sentence. [/edit]
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CoalHeart
post Oct 24 2003, 03:11 PM
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wouldn't invoking and channeling and shielding be really good for Magical Adepts? They'd end up being the magical equivilant of a Tank. or am I missing a flaw?
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Cain
post Oct 24 2003, 05:46 PM
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There is no one best metamagic for an archetype; what metamagics you choose depend heavily on the character, and not the archetype.

That being said, the big three are generally Masking, Centering, and Shielding. The order in which you take them depend on your character's preferences, but the first two are useful for any Awakened character, and the last is a huge edge for any spellcaster. Invoking is quite useful, but only for those who do a fair amount of conjuring; the same holds for channeling.

Most of the others usefulness will vary on your game and playing style, even more than your character archetype. Quickening, for example, is great if you want to play a high-powered low-stealth kind of game. Divining is good for the heavily story-driven games. Anchoring... well, I haven's seen a whole lot of use for it as 3rd ed sets it up, but it could be useful in some fashion. Reflecting and Absorbing have their uses as well, but really only come into play when you're facing a lot of spellcasters as opposition. And so on.
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CoalHeart
post Oct 24 2003, 07:01 PM
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So general consensus is

Centering and masking Must have for any

spellcaster shielding

conjuring types invoking and channeling

enchanty types shielding for foci making

RP types divining

power over stealth quickening.

thanks, this'll help a bit.
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Kanada Ten
post Oct 24 2003, 11:00 PM
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Adepts can also learn Psychometry from SotA:63 and Sensing (IIRC) from T:AL.

Psychometry is an excellent match for Divination, and Sensing is almost required in the Outback.
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Bearclaw
post Oct 24 2003, 11:49 PM
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Where does channelling come from? It's not in MiTS.
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Kanada Ten
post Oct 25 2003, 12:01 AM
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Channeling appears in Target:Awakened Lands.

It receives mention in SoNA being preformed by PCC shamans.
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mfb
post Oct 25 2003, 12:10 AM
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to clarify something lilt said: adepts learn centering on skill areas, not individual skills. for instance, the first time an adept learns Centering, he can apply it to Parachuting--Parachuting is a physical skill, and the first skill area an adept learns is Physical (see the example in MitS for confirmation). at his second grade, an adept can take Centering on Ranged Combat--all ranged combat, from shooting to throwing to sneezing. alternatively, he could take it in Melee Combat--again, all melee combat; or all Technical Skills (B/R, Computers, Electronics), all Knowledge Skills, and so on.
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Bearclaw
post Oct 25 2003, 12:20 AM
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To clarify further:
The first time you learn centering, it's usable for athletics and stealth.
Then you learn it for skill areas.
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mfb
post Oct 25 2003, 01:07 AM
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nope. the first time you learn it, it's for all physical skills. read the example on page 74: "...apply to his Physical Skills (Athletics and Stealth)". at the time MitS was printed, Stealth and Athletics were the only physical skills; when CC came out, it introduce Parachuting as another Physical Skill.
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Lilt
post Oct 25 2003, 10:14 AM
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I don't know if it's particularily cannon but I'd be tempted to allow it. Then-again what if the character's centering skill is something mobile like dancing... Yoy can just see some guy doing a parachute dive, flailing wildly as he tries to breakdance in mid air... :eek:

Centering is not a must-have for any. It's a 'could-have' for any. If you are just centering for success/against drain it may be cheaper just raising the appropriate skills. How useful centering against penalties is depends on what modifiers your GM throws at you. If your GM often throws penalties against you, taking TNs to 6+, then centering is probably a good deal.

On another note: centering can be very expensive karma-wise. You need to buy an active skill up-to at-least 4, and another skill that may be either active or knowledge up-to at-least the same amount. Assuming you're linking it to a skill your character had already; that's 14 karma to take the centering skill to 4 (6 karma if you take the munchmonic enhancer, but lots of people have disallowed that)...

IE: if you want to take centering, you'd better start-off with all the skills you need. It is technically possible for character's without the metamagical technique to learn it (the only requirement that it places on them is that they must have a magic attribute of 1 or greater) so you could take it as a starting character. That's a fairly big expenditure of skill points though for something you won't be able to use for a while (unless your GM allows you to initiate using spell points). In any case I'd take centering first if you've already spent 4-6 skill points on it.
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Sphynx
post Oct 26 2003, 07:55 PM
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The BEST MetaMagick for a Sorcerer Adept is Quickening, by far.

Sphynx
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Cain
post Oct 27 2003, 02:08 AM
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QUOTE
The BEST MetaMagick for a Sorcerer Adept is Quickening, by far.


That depends on your definition of "best".

If you're sorceror adept is the massive-sustained-spells physmage-wannabe type, then yes. If you're more the magical nuke-em type, then not really. If you're more an infiltration expert, definitely not.

Lilt: The thing is, buying 2 levels of Centering is frequently cheaper than buying 1 point of Willpower. While increasing Sorcery can also help, if your sorcery is already high, adding a new Complimentary skill can be more cost-effective.
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Sphynx
post Oct 27 2003, 07:43 AM
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QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
The BEST MetaMagick for a Sorcerer Adept is Quickening, by far.

If you're more an infiltration expert, definitely not.

So very very wrong there boss. Quickenings have about as little hinderance to being an infiltration expert as is having a meat-body. Regardless if it's Wards or Security Procedures (such as Ultrasound motion detectors), an infiltration expert is an expert because he bypasses the defenses.

Anyhows, Cain is right in that Quickening is only useful for someone who sustains spells. I just can't imagine a Sorcerer who doesn't do that. So anyhows, I'll rephrase.

The BEST metatechnique for a sorcerer who has personal sustained spells in his repetoire, is Quickening.

Sphynx
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Sphynx
post Oct 27 2003, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (CoalHeart @ Oct 24 2003, 09:01 PM)
So general consensus is

Centering and masking Must have for any

spellcaster shielding

conjuring types invoking and channeling

enchanty types shielding for foci making

RP types divining

power over stealth quickening.

thanks, this'll help a bit.

Not really Coal...

Centering, as Lilt points out, is very hard to make effective. Most people don't play the game long enough to Initiate, gain a decent Centering skill top a decent level, and gain a Centering Use skill to a decent level.

Masking is useful ONLY if you're not sustaining spells. Otherwise you need to be a Grade 4+ to be effective with Masking, although you can always appear mundane with spells on you but you can't slip through Wards etc.

Shielding. Without a doubt one of the most important, I even learn this one before Quickening usually.

Invoking: If you're a Shamanic Type who conjures, this is the most important ever. Crossing domains with Spirits and having up to <Cha> at a time all of a sudden makes you bad-ass. If you're a Hermetic Type, it's nice, but not super-important.

Channeling: Don't have that book yet. No comment.

Quickening: People are in a 'group think' on it effecting Stealth. It has no effect on anything except bypassing Wards. Even if Wards are common in your game, they are easy to bypass by someone with a head on his shoulders. Nothing else is effected by Quickening, not even how 'visible' you are in the Astral Plane. As such, see previous post for its usefullness.

Sphynx
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TinkerGnome
post Oct 27 2003, 01:24 PM
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The consensus is that there is no consensus :)

If you're playing in a game where being a mage has serious drawbacks (like being targeted by elementals guided by astral mages, or a lot of wards) you definitely want masking. If you're playing in a game where you'll never use it, you probably don't want to bother with masking. You can't reliably synch through wards until at least grade 3, though, so if you take it before then, it should be for other reasons.

If you've got a lot of karma laying around you can aford to throw at the centering skill, you might want centering. If you're strapped for karma (and who isn't?) you might want to avoid it.

If you're a conjurer, you probably do want invoking. If you're commonly facing mages, you definitely want shielding. They're the two that come closest to being "no brainers".

If there is more than one initiate mage in the group (at least someone who can help you perform ritual magic), the usefulness of symbolic linking can't be underestimated (SOTA 2063).

For a relatively standard adept, I'd probably take Centering, Masking, Centering or Centering, Centering, Masking. Divining doesn't do it for me unless the GM encourages me to take it (thus meaning he'd like to use it for in-game plot hooks).
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Lilt
post Oct 27 2003, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (Sphynx)
Channeling: Don't have that book yet.  No comment.

Channelling is only really useful for high charisma characters (with some appropriate foci and centering metamagic). It is especially useful to shamans (nature spirits tend to have more powers) who already have invoking (great-form spirits add immunity(normal weapons) based on spirit force)

In a basic case, channelling a force 2 great-form nature spirit, you add 2 to your physical attributes, gain immunity(normal weapons) at 2 (equivalent to 4 points of hardened armour), and gain some other nifty powers (all the spirit's powers except materialisation and engulf) used as a force 2 spirit for an hour or so. The 2D drain is a bitch unless you're an elf though.
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CoalHeart
post Oct 27 2003, 02:57 PM
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Well Hrm.... All very interesting.

so masking is a grade 3+ must have. Good to know as well.

Ok I guess my friend's mage should wait on channeling untill he gets some foci.
For the centering, does that work against drain like will or charisma does? Every 2 successes knocks a level of drain off?

definately need to get him Invoking then, up to charisma in spirits? That's pretty good makes shamans back on par with mages on the spirits vs elementals thing.

And for that Channeling with immunity to normal weapons, does that stack with regular armor?
Example: You're wearing Armor Jacket 5/3 and forearm guards for 0/+1 making you currently at 5/4
Have force 5 armor on a sustaned foci for armor of 10/9
and then channel a force 4 great form spirit, Do you then have 14/13 hardened? or does anything with power of 9 still hurt you?
or are you impervious to anything except Assault Cannons, missiles, and other strong weapons?

Also do you become Dual Natured while channeling? Can astral beings attack? Do weapon foci ignore your improved armor due to the spirit?

Thanks for edjucating a relative newbie. I know the books but I don't completely grasp the concepts yet.

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Sphynx
post Oct 27 2003, 03:05 PM
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First, isn't Immunity using double the creature's essence?
Secondly, I went through the Nature Spirits and none have Immunity...
Lastly, I'd treat the armour as 18/17 and ignore any weapon with a power less than 8 in your example. ;)

Sphynx
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CoalHeart
post Oct 27 2003, 03:30 PM
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Greater form Nature spirits are immune to weapons, which give that to the channeler, unless I'm mistaken
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Sphynx
post Oct 27 2003, 03:35 PM
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My book only shows that LAO spirits get that from Greater Form, Nature Spirits get Storm and Divination... Maybe I just have an old edition though.

Sphynx
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