Which meta magics should be taken for which tradition and in what order should they be learned?
Physical Adept
--Melee Master
--Range Master
--Stealth Master
--Perception Master
aspected Mage
--Sorc
--Conjur
--Enchant
Aspected Shaman
--Sorc
--Conjur
--Enchant
--Voodoo
Psionists
Full Mage
Full Shaman
--Voodoo
Magical Adept
--Mage
--Shaman
Full Version: Meta Magics
The question is less based on the character and more on the game. In many games, every person capable of taking a metamagic needs to take Masking first. In many others, most don't ever need to take it. It's a pretty subjective thing.
| QUOTE (CoalHeart) |
| Which meta magics should be taken for which tradition and in what order should they be learned? Physical Adept --Melee Master --Range Master --Stealth Master --Perception Master aspected Mage --Sorc --Conjur --Enchant Aspected Shaman --Sorc --Conjur --Enchant Full Mage Full Shaman Magical Adept |
EEp. It depends on how you play them. I'll give it my best shot:
Physad is probably Centering followed by centering and more centering. You first learn for stealth&athletics but then can apply to one combat skill at a time (Ie: centering against penalties when shooting a gun? Shweet!).
Perception master I have never realy seen. Perhaps something like tracking (from T:AL, can't recall the exact name or divining from MITS)
For magicians; the same applies to both traditions:
Aspected Elementalist/Shamanist:
Depends on what your totem makes you good at. Probably invoking first for shamanists as it lets you have groups of spirits and access them outside the domain you summon them in. After that it depends what your character does.
Aspected Sorcerer:
Shielding, Centering, Masking, and Anchoring are probably the most important. Take them in whatever order you want.
Aspected Conjurer
Invoking and Chanelling are the musts, Other than that Centering and then Masking helpful.
Enchanter
Centering can aid in enchanting, Probably shielding as some people don't let you make shielding foci without it (makes sense)
Full mage:
All are good. Choose whatever your character leans towards the most above and choose from them. Full Shamans will want Invoking as it lets them have packs of spirits rather than single ones.
Magical Adept:
Centering is almost better for magical adepts than it is for normal adepts. Aside from that use the same advice given to full mages above.
Certain powers (such as masking and anchoring) vary in usefulness depending on how the game is run.
Sorry to jump in to the discussion with a newbie question (that I could probably answer myself if I went home and searched through my books) but physical adepts can get metamagic? Where is this? What metamagics could they use?
It's in the first bit of the metamagics section in MitS. They can get Centering, Masking, and Divining.
[edit] MitS p 69, under Learning Metamagic, first paragraph, last sentence. [/edit]
[edit] MitS p 69, under Learning Metamagic, first paragraph, last sentence. [/edit]
wouldn't invoking and channeling and shielding be really good for Magical Adepts? They'd end up being the magical equivilant of a Tank. or am I missing a flaw?
There is no one best metamagic for an archetype; what metamagics you choose depend heavily on the character, and not the archetype.
That being said, the big three are generally Masking, Centering, and Shielding. The order in which you take them depend on your character's preferences, but the first two are useful for any Awakened character, and the last is a huge edge for any spellcaster. Invoking is quite useful, but only for those who do a fair amount of conjuring; the same holds for channeling.
Most of the others usefulness will vary on your game and playing style, even more than your character archetype. Quickening, for example, is great if you want to play a high-powered low-stealth kind of game. Divining is good for the heavily story-driven games. Anchoring... well, I haven's seen a whole lot of use for it as 3rd ed sets it up, but it could be useful in some fashion. Reflecting and Absorbing have their uses as well, but really only come into play when you're facing a lot of spellcasters as opposition. And so on.
That being said, the big three are generally Masking, Centering, and Shielding. The order in which you take them depend on your character's preferences, but the first two are useful for any Awakened character, and the last is a huge edge for any spellcaster. Invoking is quite useful, but only for those who do a fair amount of conjuring; the same holds for channeling.
Most of the others usefulness will vary on your game and playing style, even more than your character archetype. Quickening, for example, is great if you want to play a high-powered low-stealth kind of game. Divining is good for the heavily story-driven games. Anchoring... well, I haven's seen a whole lot of use for it as 3rd ed sets it up, but it could be useful in some fashion. Reflecting and Absorbing have their uses as well, but really only come into play when you're facing a lot of spellcasters as opposition. And so on.
So general consensus is
Centering and masking Must have for any
spellcaster shielding
conjuring types invoking and channeling
enchanty types shielding for foci making
RP types divining
power over stealth quickening.
thanks, this'll help a bit.
Centering and masking Must have for any
spellcaster shielding
conjuring types invoking and channeling
enchanty types shielding for foci making
RP types divining
power over stealth quickening.
thanks, this'll help a bit.
Adepts can also learn Psychometry from SotA:63 and Sensing (IIRC) from T:AL.
Psychometry is an excellent match for Divination, and Sensing is almost required in the Outback.
Psychometry is an excellent match for Divination, and Sensing is almost required in the Outback.
Where does channelling come from? It's not in MiTS.
Channeling appears in Target:Awakened Lands.
It receives mention in SoNA being preformed by PCC shamans.
It receives mention in SoNA being preformed by PCC shamans.
to clarify something lilt said: adepts learn centering on skill areas, not individual skills. for instance, the first time an adept learns Centering, he can apply it to Parachuting--Parachuting is a physical skill, and the first skill area an adept learns is Physical (see the example in MitS for confirmation). at his second grade, an adept can take Centering on Ranged Combat--all ranged combat, from shooting to throwing to sneezing. alternatively, he could take it in Melee Combat--again, all melee combat; or all Technical Skills (B/R, Computers, Electronics), all Knowledge Skills, and so on.
To clarify further:
The first time you learn centering, it's usable for athletics and stealth.
Then you learn it for skill areas.
The first time you learn centering, it's usable for athletics and stealth.
Then you learn it for skill areas.
nope. the first time you learn it, it's for all physical skills. read the example on page 74: "...apply to his Physical Skills (Athletics and Stealth)". at the time MitS was printed, Stealth and Athletics were the only physical skills; when CC came out, it introduce Parachuting as another Physical Skill.
I don't know if it's particularily cannon but I'd be tempted to allow it. Then-again what if the character's centering skill is something mobile like dancing... Yoy can just see some guy doing a parachute dive, flailing wildly as he tries to breakdance in mid air... 
Centering is not a must-have for any. It's a 'could-have' for any. If you are just centering for success/against drain it may be cheaper just raising the appropriate skills. How useful centering against penalties is depends on what modifiers your GM throws at you. If your GM often throws penalties against you, taking TNs to 6+, then centering is probably a good deal.
On another note: centering can be very expensive karma-wise. You need to buy an active skill up-to at-least 4, and another skill that may be either active or knowledge up-to at-least the same amount. Assuming you're linking it to a skill your character had already; that's 14 karma to take the centering skill to 4 (6 karma if you take the munchmonic enhancer, but lots of people have disallowed that)...
IE: if you want to take centering, you'd better start-off with all the skills you need. It is technically possible for character's without the metamagical technique to learn it (the only requirement that it places on them is that they must have a magic attribute of 1 or greater) so you could take it as a starting character. That's a fairly big expenditure of skill points though for something you won't be able to use for a while (unless your GM allows you to initiate using spell points). In any case I'd take centering first if you've already spent 4-6 skill points on it.
Centering is not a must-have for any. It's a 'could-have' for any. If you are just centering for success/against drain it may be cheaper just raising the appropriate skills. How useful centering against penalties is depends on what modifiers your GM throws at you. If your GM often throws penalties against you, taking TNs to 6+, then centering is probably a good deal.
On another note: centering can be very expensive karma-wise. You need to buy an active skill up-to at-least 4, and another skill that may be either active or knowledge up-to at-least the same amount. Assuming you're linking it to a skill your character had already; that's 14 karma to take the centering skill to 4 (6 karma if you take the munchmonic enhancer, but lots of people have disallowed that)...
IE: if you want to take centering, you'd better start-off with all the skills you need. It is technically possible for character's without the metamagical technique to learn it (the only requirement that it places on them is that they must have a magic attribute of 1 or greater) so you could take it as a starting character. That's a fairly big expenditure of skill points though for something you won't be able to use for a while (unless your GM allows you to initiate using spell points). In any case I'd take centering first if you've already spent 4-6 skill points on it.
The BEST MetaMagick for a Sorcerer Adept is Quickening, by far.
Sphynx
Sphynx
| QUOTE |
| The BEST MetaMagick for a Sorcerer Adept is Quickening, by far. |
That depends on your definition of "best".
If you're sorceror adept is the massive-sustained-spells physmage-wannabe type, then yes. If you're more the magical nuke-em type, then not really. If you're more an infiltration expert, definitely not.
Lilt: The thing is, buying 2 levels of Centering is frequently cheaper than buying 1 point of Willpower. While increasing Sorcery can also help, if your sorcery is already high, adding a new Complimentary skill can be more cost-effective.
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
If you're more an infiltration expert, definitely not. |
So very very wrong there boss. Quickenings have about as little hinderance to being an infiltration expert as is having a meat-body. Regardless if it's Wards or Security Procedures (such as Ultrasound motion detectors), an infiltration expert is an expert because he bypasses the defenses.
Anyhows, Cain is right in that Quickening is only useful for someone who sustains spells. I just can't imagine a Sorcerer who doesn't do that. So anyhows, I'll rephrase.
The BEST metatechnique for a sorcerer who has personal sustained spells in his repetoire, is Quickening.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (CoalHeart @ Oct 24 2003, 09:01 PM) |
| So general consensus is Centering and masking Must have for any spellcaster shielding conjuring types invoking and channeling enchanty types shielding for foci making RP types divining power over stealth quickening. thanks, this'll help a bit. |
Not really Coal...
Centering, as Lilt points out, is very hard to make effective. Most people don't play the game long enough to Initiate, gain a decent Centering skill top a decent level, and gain a Centering Use skill to a decent level.
Masking is useful ONLY if you're not sustaining spells. Otherwise you need to be a Grade 4+ to be effective with Masking, although you can always appear mundane with spells on you but you can't slip through Wards etc.
Shielding. Without a doubt one of the most important, I even learn this one before Quickening usually.
Invoking: If you're a Shamanic Type who conjures, this is the most important ever. Crossing domains with Spirits and having up to <Cha> at a time all of a sudden makes you bad-ass. If you're a Hermetic Type, it's nice, but not super-important.
Channeling: Don't have that book yet. No comment.
Quickening: People are in a 'group think' on it effecting Stealth. It has no effect on anything except bypassing Wards. Even if Wards are common in your game, they are easy to bypass by someone with a head on his shoulders. Nothing else is effected by Quickening, not even how 'visible' you are in the Astral Plane. As such, see previous post for its usefullness.
Sphynx
The consensus is that there is no consensus 
If you're playing in a game where being a mage has serious drawbacks (like being targeted by elementals guided by astral mages, or a lot of wards) you definitely want masking. If you're playing in a game where you'll never use it, you probably don't want to bother with masking. You can't reliably synch through wards until at least grade 3, though, so if you take it before then, it should be for other reasons.
If you've got a lot of karma laying around you can aford to throw at the centering skill, you might want centering. If you're strapped for karma (and who isn't?) you might want to avoid it.
If you're a conjurer, you probably do want invoking. If you're commonly facing mages, you definitely want shielding. They're the two that come closest to being "no brainers".
If there is more than one initiate mage in the group (at least someone who can help you perform ritual magic), the usefulness of symbolic linking can't be underestimated (SOTA 2063).
For a relatively standard adept, I'd probably take Centering, Masking, Centering or Centering, Centering, Masking. Divining doesn't do it for me unless the GM encourages me to take it (thus meaning he'd like to use it for in-game plot hooks).
If you're playing in a game where being a mage has serious drawbacks (like being targeted by elementals guided by astral mages, or a lot of wards) you definitely want masking. If you're playing in a game where you'll never use it, you probably don't want to bother with masking. You can't reliably synch through wards until at least grade 3, though, so if you take it before then, it should be for other reasons.
If you've got a lot of karma laying around you can aford to throw at the centering skill, you might want centering. If you're strapped for karma (and who isn't?) you might want to avoid it.
If you're a conjurer, you probably do want invoking. If you're commonly facing mages, you definitely want shielding. They're the two that come closest to being "no brainers".
If there is more than one initiate mage in the group (at least someone who can help you perform ritual magic), the usefulness of symbolic linking can't be underestimated (SOTA 2063).
For a relatively standard adept, I'd probably take Centering, Masking, Centering or Centering, Centering, Masking. Divining doesn't do it for me unless the GM encourages me to take it (thus meaning he'd like to use it for in-game plot hooks).
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Channeling: Don't have that book yet. No comment. |
Channelling is only really useful for high charisma characters (with some appropriate foci and centering metamagic). It is especially useful to shamans (nature spirits tend to have more powers) who already have invoking (great-form spirits add immunity(normal weapons) based on spirit force)
In a basic case, channelling a force 2 great-form nature spirit, you add 2 to your physical attributes, gain immunity(normal weapons) at 2 (equivalent to 4 points of hardened armour), and gain some other nifty powers (all the spirit's powers except materialisation and engulf) used as a force 2 spirit for an hour or so. The 2D drain is a bitch unless you're an elf though.
Well Hrm.... All very interesting.
so masking is a grade 3+ must have. Good to know as well.
Ok I guess my friend's mage should wait on channeling untill he gets some foci.
For the centering, does that work against drain like will or charisma does? Every 2 successes knocks a level of drain off?
definately need to get him Invoking then, up to charisma in spirits? That's pretty good makes shamans back on par with mages on the spirits vs elementals thing.
And for that Channeling with immunity to normal weapons, does that stack with regular armor?
Example: You're wearing Armor Jacket 5/3 and forearm guards for 0/+1 making you currently at 5/4
Have force 5 armor on a sustaned foci for armor of 10/9
and then channel a force 4 great form spirit, Do you then have 14/13 hardened? or does anything with power of 9 still hurt you?
or are you impervious to anything except Assault Cannons, missiles, and other strong weapons?
Also do you become Dual Natured while channeling? Can astral beings attack? Do weapon foci ignore your improved armor due to the spirit?
Thanks for edjucating a relative newbie. I know the books but I don't completely grasp the concepts yet.
so masking is a grade 3+ must have. Good to know as well.
Ok I guess my friend's mage should wait on channeling untill he gets some foci.
For the centering, does that work against drain like will or charisma does? Every 2 successes knocks a level of drain off?
definately need to get him Invoking then, up to charisma in spirits? That's pretty good makes shamans back on par with mages on the spirits vs elementals thing.
And for that Channeling with immunity to normal weapons, does that stack with regular armor?
Example: You're wearing Armor Jacket 5/3 and forearm guards for 0/+1 making you currently at 5/4
Have force 5 armor on a sustaned foci for armor of 10/9
and then channel a force 4 great form spirit, Do you then have 14/13 hardened? or does anything with power of 9 still hurt you?
or are you impervious to anything except Assault Cannons, missiles, and other strong weapons?
Also do you become Dual Natured while channeling? Can astral beings attack? Do weapon foci ignore your improved armor due to the spirit?
Thanks for edjucating a relative newbie. I know the books but I don't completely grasp the concepts yet.
First, isn't Immunity using double the creature's essence?
Secondly, I went through the Nature Spirits and none have Immunity...
Lastly, I'd treat the armour as 18/17 and ignore any weapon with a power less than 8 in your example.
Sphynx
Secondly, I went through the Nature Spirits and none have Immunity...
Lastly, I'd treat the armour as 18/17 and ignore any weapon with a power less than 8 in your example.
Sphynx
Greater form Nature spirits are immune to weapons, which give that to the channeler, unless I'm mistaken
My book only shows that LAO spirits get that from Greater Form, Nature Spirits get Storm and Divination... Maybe I just have an old edition though.
Sphynx
Sphynx
Immunity is doubble the creature's essence (the spirit's in this case) so Sphynx's example is correct.
Spirits gain immunity to normal weapons when they materialize (it's under the materialization power and in the bit about spirits in the magic chapter). This is not relevant (as the character cannot materialize) but it states it under Channelling's description that channelling great form spirits grants the immunity (normal weapons) power based on the spirit's force.
look here for the transcript of the channelling power from the book (Boogie Woogie Wookie's 2nd post).
[edit]Removed mistakes caused by excessive smoking of crack[/edit]
Spirits gain immunity to normal weapons when they materialize (it's under the materialization power and in the bit about spirits in the magic chapter). This is not relevant (as the character cannot materialize) but it states it under Channelling's description that channelling great form spirits grants the immunity (normal weapons) power based on the spirit's force.
look here for the transcript of the channelling power from the book (Boogie Woogie Wookie's 2nd post).
[edit]Removed mistakes caused by excessive smoking of crack[/edit]
Very cool, so it's a Channeling power not a Spirit power. Guess that's one more House Rule we'll have to add should this Meta make it to our games. I don't like the idea of players having Immunity to Normal Weapons.
BTW, this would be the most important were it allowed. +F to 3 attributes, +6 to armour, Concealment, Accident, Etc. Hell, so much for Spirit services, you gain all their powers anyhows. Who needs services?
Sphynx
BTW, this would be the most important were it allowed. +F to 3 attributes, +6 to armour, Concealment, Accident, Etc. Hell, so much for Spirit services, you gain all their powers anyhows. Who needs services?
Sphynx
You also get to suck (force)D drain with straight charisma. Hopefully, you don't need to be conscious at that point
The kick in the crotch is the (Force)D drain you take afterwards. Most elves would have troubble channelling even a force 3 spirit to take no drain. Force 3 is very effective though as then you can confuse, conceal, and use movement.
[edit]Again with the crack[/edit]
[edit]Again with the crack[/edit]
It's Charisma + totem (if applicable) + spirit foci + centering to resist the channeling drain? isn't it?
Once again I show my ignorance of the nuances of the books. Dam you books for not being consise!
Once again I show my ignorance of the nuances of the books. Dam you books for not being consise!
Force 4 = 4D?
Trauma Dampener makes 6 successes needed.
Charisma 9 is pretty easy to attain, add in a Force 3 Spirit Focus and you got 12 dice, how's that difficult? Even if you aren't allowed to use Foci, 1 karma pool will do the trick just as nicely. And between you, me, and the wall. The 30+33+36=99 karma to get that Charisma up to 12 is almost worth it.
Sphynx
Trauma Dampener makes 6 successes needed.
Charisma 9 is pretty easy to attain, add in a Force 3 Spirit Focus and you got 12 dice, how's that difficult? Even if you aren't allowed to use Foci, 1 karma pool will do the trick just as nicely. And between you, me, and the wall. The 30+33+36=99 karma to get that Charisma up to 12 is almost worth it.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (CoalHeart) |
| It's Charisma + totem (if applicable) + spirit foci + centering to resist the channeling drain? isn't it? |
Sorta. I'd allow them all but I don't think it explicitly says you get totem modifiers on the drain.
99+ karma is a lot to pay for attaining those bonuses for around 1/2 an hour. If you can afford it though it dosen't matter any-more as you can summon force 6 spirits with no chance of drain if you have a trauma dampener. It just becomes Summon, Order, Summon, Order ETC.
1/2 hour is an eternity in Shadowrunner time, some times.
99 Karma + karma for spirit foci for channeling and summoning, that's frigtening stuff to consider the out come.
Channel a greater force 6 swarm, and then channel one, it's like an Astral Army and you're the nearly unkillable general.
Even with the mega crash afterwards and you do take some Drain, you can TraumaDamp, and stimpatch and center it away
I don't like it I hope I never see it get played out in a game. What would be the use of even playing when the group's shaman can just tear apart the entire Corp security force with out any trouble?
I'll ask my GM to put a house rule on this. It seems way too powerful. Poor sammy will have nothing to shoot by the time it comes around to his turn.
99 Karma + karma for spirit foci for channeling and summoning, that's frigtening stuff to consider the out come.
Channel a greater force 6 swarm, and then channel one, it's like an Astral Army and you're the nearly unkillable general.
Even with the mega crash afterwards and you do take some Drain, you can TraumaDamp, and stimpatch and center it away
I don't like it I hope I never see it get played out in a game. What would be the use of even playing when the group's shaman can just tear apart the entire Corp security force with out any trouble?
I'll ask my GM to put a house rule on this. It seems way too powerful. Poor sammy will have nothing to shoot by the time it comes around to his turn.
On another note; why not look at what else a mage can do with 150+ karma before you decide that it's too powerful. You'd be better just ruling that mages (on the whole) are too powerful.
[edit]Besides you'll probably only get about 10 minutes from a force 6 spirit. The GM need-not throw armies at you, a change of domain would work quite nicely too. You keep the channeled spirit but you and your armies lose their powers. Besides; a starting mage could still manna-bolt you and kill you...[/edit]
[edit]Besides you'll probably only get about 10 minutes from a force 6 spirit. The GM need-not throw armies at you, a change of domain would work quite nicely too. You keep the channeled spirit but you and your armies lose their powers. Besides; a starting mage could still manna-bolt you and kill you...[/edit]
Dam mages, stinking up the universe. Why can't they be limited like the rest of us?
And why not just make the whole situation worse by giving the mage lots of cyber and some wepon foci and geasa and initiations.
Oh well. At least I can have my own fun and not worry about the mage, he's on our side anyways.
I swear to God that I would kill the GM if he threw something like this at our group.
And why not just make the whole situation worse by giving the mage lots of cyber and some wepon foci and geasa and initiations.
Oh well. At least I can have my own fun and not worry about the mage, he's on our side anyways.
I swear to God that I would kill the GM if he threw something like this at our group.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 24 2003, 07:07 PM) |
| nope. the first time you learn it, it's for all physical skills. read the example on page 74: "...apply to his Physical Skills (Athletics and Stealth)". at the time MitS was printed, Stealth and Athletics were the only physical skills; when CC came out, it introduce Parachuting as another Physical Skill. |
The only problem with your theory here is that it specifically limits that to Athletics and Stealth. And despite your claim otherwise, there IS another Physical Skill listed in the main sourcebook; Diving.
This example is just like any other that lists a major group and then limits it in parethesis. Take the Muscle Toner as an example. It can give you a -1 or -2 TN bonus on all Athletics (Escape Artist) tests. That means it only applies to the Escape Artist specialization and not Athletics in general. Same exact difference with the Adept use of Centering. If they meant it only as an example, they would have put "(such as Athletics and Stealth)" or something else along those lines. But as it stands, it is following the standard notation of limited skills in the rules descriptions, meaning the first time an adept takes Centering, it applies ONLY to Athletics and Stealth. He can then choose to buy it for Physical Skills the next time he initiates if he really wants to throw in the other Physical Skills as well.
Yes, it actually states that in the description of Centering for Adepts (MiTS pg.73-74):
| QUOTE |
| "Instead, adepts use centering to improve their performance with Athletics and Stealth and can learn to apply centering to other types of skills as well. An adept who learns centering begins with the ability to apply it to Athletics and Stealth." |
However...
Physical Skills are not listed when they mention the other types of skill areas an adept can learn centering for (MiTS pg.74):
| QUOTE |
| "The additional skill areas for which adepts may learn centering are: Build and Repair, Melee Combat, Range Combat, Knowledge, Language, Social, Technical and Vehicle. Centering may also be applied to Special Skills. Each skill or area of Special Skill (like Musical Skills) is considered a separate technique. Though adepts can learn to apply centering to Sorcery, they can still only use Sorcery for astral combat." |
It is a bit odd for them to mention every skill category out of the book, except Physical (and Magical, but that is covered later when they mention Sorcery). Personally, as a GM I rule that Adepts can use their first centering for any Physical Skill.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| So very very wrong there boss. Quickenings have about as little hinderance to being an infiltration expert as is having a meat-body. Regardless if it's Wards or Security Procedures (such as Ultrasound motion detectors), an infiltration expert is an expert because he bypasses the defenses. |
I suppose it depends on your idea of an infiltration expert. Mine involves some use of bullshitting and disguising, which loses a good deal of effectiveness to anyone magical who sees/feels those high-force quickened spells that you love to tote around. You will always be identifiable as magical, which means that you can only ever pretend to be less than 1% of the population. That feels limiting to me.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.