Ritual magic and astral barriers, Do they matter? Options

[Talia Invierno]

An interesting assertion has been made in the Dragon challenge thread:

[odinson]

In the case of regular ritual casting you do need line of sight, that's why there is a spotter involved. For regular ritual casting, since the spotter is considered part of the group, I would go with the spell traveling from the spotter to the target so any impeding astral barrier would work. I would also argue that background count where the casters are would all effect the spell not where the target is. The background count where the casters are would alter their magic rating and effect drain and forces of spells as per normal, see page 118 in street magic. The reason for arguing that the background count where the casters are and not the target effects the spell is the line, "Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected." This is the line in reference to having the spells force reduced by the background count. No where in the list is an instantaneous spell. This leads to the conclusion that a spell cast into an area with a background count would not have it's force dropped. If the spell were to then be sustained the force would be lowered appropriately, but one without a sustained duration would not be of lower force. The only thing one could really argue for the background count at the target is that the spotter needs to be able to assense the target and background count reduces astral visibility.

Using a link would be a little different. I would say that since the link replaces the spotter it would act like the spotter in the previous example. So any barrier between the link and the target would block the spell. The only thing with using a link is that because it doesn't require line of sight you could say that the spell will take the path of least resistance and only the barriers that it cannot avoid would count. Also the visibility mods for a background count at the target location would not have an effect.

[Buster]

I thought background counts affected all magic including spirits (not just spirit powers but could actually disrupt spirits) and could even shut down enchanted items. I would think a target in a background count area would reduce the potency of the ritual spell by the background count as well. The same would be true if the ritualist was surrounded by a background count area or who had no way to reach the target except through a background count area. For example if the target or ritualist were in a legrange point orbital platform.

Also, if wards and background count don't affect ritual magic, is there any defense whatsoever against ritual magic besides Counterspelling?

[Ol' Scratch]

[Deleted]

[Kyoto Kid]

For making the link and astral barrier does affect the test:

[Wakshaani]

Augh, pfft, yeah, if you wanna bring the BOOK into this.

Sheesh!

Some people!

[FrankTrollman]

Except that he's bringing a third edition book into it. Seriously, check the citation - it's Magic in the Shadows, not Street Magic. Ritual Spellcasting works differently in 4th edition than it does in 3rd. Kyoto Kid's reference is to a "linking test" - which is a subset of the Ritual Sorcery rules which no longer exist. Furthermore, he printed up a "target number modifier", which also no longer exists.

Actually, Kyoto Kid's reference just proves the opposite point. In order to find an effect upon ritual spellcasting, you have to delve into 3rd edition rules for ritual sorcery.

4th edition ritual spellcasting has advantages and disadvantages relative to 3rd edition ritual sorcery (mostly disadvantages honestly), but this partcular modifier is no longer one you have to contend with.

-Frank

[Kyoto Kid]

...whoops, my bad Frank. :embarassed: Been running RiS (SRIII) and just had the team's mage attempt a ritual locate last session.

[mfb]

i think the answer should be yes. magicians become ridiculously more powerful if there no countermeasures against ritual sorcery. a major countermeasure in SR3 was the fact that in order to hit a target with ritual sorcery, you had to find them--which was made harder by the presence of an astral barrier.

in the actual rules... it could go either way. i think i agree with Talia, for simple reason that just because a given rule is not specifically mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't apply. i don't have the book in front of me, but i'm positive there are a plethora of modifiers that are not specifically applied to ritual sorcery, which should be applied anyway. wound modifiers, a spirit's confusion power, spell sustaining, and so on.

astral barriers, in the rules, make it easier to resist spells that are cast through them. so the question is, does a ritually-cast spell pass through the barrier? i'm kinda thinking it does, because there's nothing that says it doesn't. all it says is that ritual magic allows the magician to cast on targets outside the magician's visual range. it doesn't, as far as i know, say that the effective location of the caster changes, which is what would have to happen for the barrier to be discounted.

[Ol' Scratch]

Regarding defenses:

There are plenty of defenses against ritual sorcery. Counterspelling, for instance, works just as well against it as it does anything else, as does various other forms of astral security such as spirits or projecting mages on guard duty. I presume that one still needs to secure a ritual link or other form of line of sight in order to target someone as well, many of which require getting through various barriers to obtain.

Anyone important enough to be a target for ritual sorcery should also be important enough to have magical countermeasures in place. Wards and astral barriers are merely passive defenses to keep the riff-raff out, not active defenses. It's like being upset that people can go through a door to get to a guy in a room or venting some knock-out gas through the ventilation system; they just bypassed all the defenses that room presented (as opposed to blowing a hole in the wall, which is more akin to defeating an astral barrier).

Summary: Hiding behind a wall isn't that great of a defense. Especially if it's your only defense. If the target is just some chump, it doesn't matter that you were able to bypass an astral barrier; he wouldn't have been a very difficult target to get to through other means.

[mfb]

holy shit, it's the funk!

[Fortune]

He heard I was back, and couldn't resist the calling. ;) :D

Hey Doc.

[FrankTrollman]

Remember that this particular discussionis being colored by an extreme example (the six-man edge-flinging dragon slayers of doom). In most cases, Ritual Spellcasting is weak sauce. I really tried to come up with something for Doc Wagon to use Ritual Sorcery for and I couldn't - Docwagon can physically fly mages to any part of the world faster than a ritualist could target that location with a remote spell.

Also consider that in abstract many barriers are simply planes of set dimensions. Not only are they not inclusive of all the four-dimensional metaplanar directions, but many of them don't even completely encircle a point in three. For this exercise, let's consider a Mana Barrier (represented by "[]"), an astral spotter (respresented by "S"), and the ritual team (represented by "R"). And of course the target ("T").

So let's consider an initial topology of:

R . S . [] . T

In this case the Spotter is looking through the mana barrier, and when the spell goes off, the spell goes through the barrier and gets punked.

But instead let's have the spotter (who is astral anyhow) fly around to the other side, for this topology:

R . [] . T . S

Suddenly the spell doesn't go through the barrier, neh?

The characters in the super-assassination example were of course taking it to an extreme. But they were also using the Sympathetic Linking metamagic technique. At a cost of merely ruinous penalties, it actually uses the target as the spotter. So regardless of how many barriers there are or where they are, every topology is functionally eqivalent to the second example. The spotter is always on the same side of any barrier as the target, so you always bypass any barrier.

-Frank

[Kyoto Kid]

...for Counterspelling to work:

A. A mage needs to be present with the target 24/7
B. Said mage has to be "aware" of the ritual linking attempt in order to counterspell it.
C. Counterspelling only adds dice to the random roll resistance test and does not impose a fixed threshold as a ward should.

Also, a ritual team can use a Sympathetic Link (Street Magic p 28) which does not degrade in quality. This does not require a spotter and can be used for repeated attempts without any additional modifiers.

In the mundane example, the runners still have to physically be there, get through the locks, disarm the security systems, figure out the ventilation system, and find the room where the target is. Ritual magic can be done from a safe remote location. Big diff. in my book.

[FrankTrollman]

[mfb]

hm. that sucks. i mean, offhand, a ritual kill-team like the one described doesn't seem much harder to put together than, say, a beta clinic, and it seems a hojillion times more effective than anything a beta clinic--or even a delta clinic--could produce, in terms of assassinations.

[Kyoto Kid]

...@FrankTrollman, OK still thinking in SRIII terms, sorry.

Admittedly I not totally up to speed on SR4 magic as with previous editions.

So the mage just sits there giving counterspelling dice & doesn't have to actively intercept the linking attempt or incoming spell then.

Also I see no mention of a Linking Test as in previous editions (which is where wards did come into play). So for example, if the Ritual team is simply trying to locate the victim of a kidnapping (and not targeting a spell), there really is little that can stop them short of having the victim in a deep underground bunker, the spotter having to return to his body because the ritual took too long or spell test itself failed to generate any hits.

Most definitely am glad I didn't let myself get talked into converting RiS to SR4.

[Talia Invierno]

It may come down to exactly what

[Ancient History]

Regarding Frank's comments, I should add that it can be argued that a character completely surrounded by an astral barrier-such as a mana lodge, an astral barrier spell, or a warded space-may still be afforded that protection even if a material link or sympathetic link is used.

To whit, let's look at a relevant rule:

[Buster]

[odinson]

[FrankTrollman]

[Kyoto Kid]

...Frank, thanks for the clarifications.

I can read the rules over & over (as I have done), but oft times, an example makes the murky turn crystal clear.

-KK

[Talia Invierno]

[Particle_Beam]

Material, sympathetic and symbolic links do link directly to the target/victim. But spotters don't, that's the point.