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[Buster]

Possession FAQ
This page is regularly updated, so it is not necessary to read the whole thread. If you have any questions or suggestions, feel free to post them here, I will update this page.

1) If a mage possesses himself with one of his spirits, can he cast spells or conjure spirits?
A: No, unless the mage possesses the Channeling metamagic ability, the spirit's special attributes override the mage's and the mage loses the ability to wield magic including casting spells, conjuring spirits, and enchanting items. (Street Magic p. 102 sidebar 2nd paragraph)

2) If a mage with the Channeling metamagic ability possesses himself with one of his spirits, can he wield magic?
A: Yes, the mage's special attributes override the spirit's special attributes and the mage can cast spells, conjure spirits, enchant objects, etc. (Otherwise, there is no point for Channeling.) The mage uses his own Magic attribute (not the spirit's).

3) If a mage possesses himself with one of his spirits, can he still control the spirit?
A: Yes, the mage retains complete control over the spirit. He can mentally command the spirit to walk somewhere, pick up something, say something, and so on without expending a service. He can also command the spirit to expend Services as usual. If the mage is possessed by someone else's spirit, he obviously would not be able to control the other mage's spirit without the use of Banishing.

4) Can a mage with the Channeling metamagic ability control a spirit possessing him that is owned by someone else?
No (well, maybe). By the RAW, the channeler only has to allow himself to be willingly possessed, no one has to give the channeler explicit control of the spirit. By this interpretation, in a sense, a Channeler can turn the tables on possessing spirits and can become a tarbaby for hapless spirits. (Street Magic p54). However, it also says that Channeling is used by magicians to "enhance their control over spirits", so it seems that in the spirit of the rules (no pun intended), it would seem the answer would actually be "No" unless the channeler was given control of the spirit (as a remote service) or if the channeler succeeded in Banishing and re-Summoning the spirit.

5) Can people notice the spirit in the mage?
A: Yes. Unless the mage (or the spirit) possesses the Masking metamagic ability (or Aura Masking spirit power), the spirit can be spotted with Astral Perception using the Assensing rules. Furthermore, unless the spirit has the Realistic Form power or is under the effect of a Mask/Physical-Mask illusion spell, a powerful spirit could be noticeable to mundanes using the shamanic mask rules. (Street Magic p. 102 sidebar 1st paragraph. See SR4 p. 168 for shamanic mask rules). Possible manifestations of this phenomena include (but are not limited to) glowing eyes, ectoplasmic wisps radiating from the body, otherworldly voice, and alien spectral facial features. Furthermore, unless the mage has acquired the Channeling metamagic ability, people who know the mage would notice that the hybrid being behaves significantly differently than the mage including a different gait, speech pattern, and possibly a different voice if the spirit was powerful enough.

5 b) What does the possessed character look like?
A: There's nothing in the rules about what a possessed character looks like or if there are any ways to modify that spotting role. P.102 says "Occasionally a possessing spirit’s nature manifests through the vessel in an effect similar to a shamanic mask (p. 168, SR4). Success not only notices the possessing/inhabiting spirit, but also delivers some clues as to what the spirit “really looks like." P. 95 has a little more detail and says "To notice a spirit possessing/inhabiting a vessel, an observer must make a Perception Test and beat a threshold of 6 – the spirit’s Force." If they are using their powers, they may be a little easier to spot: "At the gamemaster’s discretion, the use of the spirit’s powers may create an effect like a shamanic mask, adding a +2 dice pool modifier to the Perception Test." Spotters just get 6 minus spirit's force to spot the spirit in the person even if the possessed character is 10 miles down the street, hiding behind a curtain, wearing a trenchcoat sunglasses and hat, and standing deep in shadow. I've always taken the "traditional" approach and figured a possessed character could have an otherworldly voice ("THERE IS NO DANA, ONLY ZHUUL"), spectral eyes (Spawn), or (at higher force) more exotic effects like ectoplasmic wisps of shadow, writhing skin, and such. So by that paradigm, the possessed character gets perception mods to his concealment roll such as distance, shadow, heavy clothing, etc. Therefore the possessing character could conceal his nature (depending on what the GM says the "special effects" are of the possession) with a Physical Mask spell or even a mundane disguise. For example, an electronic speech synthesizer on the throat would conceal an otherworldly voice but wouldn't do anything to disguise transparent glowing skin.

6) Is the mage/spirit hybrid dual natured?
Yes, which means the mage/spirit hybrid is simultaneously astrally-perceiving and normally-perceiving all the time without the -2 penalty. (SR4 Errata v.1.5 p. 3). If the mage (or spirit) has the Masking metamagic ability, the mage can hide the fact that the being is dual natured.

7) Can a spirit that is possessing someone without Channeling use their Adept abilities?
No because the spirit's Magic attribute overrides the host's Magic attribute and the Adept loses all his adept abilities while possessed. (the example in Street Magic shows a Technomancer losing all his abilities while possessed).

8_) Does a Mystic Adept that is possessed and has Channeling keep access to his Adept abilities?
A: Yes because with Channeling, the Mystic Adept's Magic attribute overrides the spirit's Magic attribute and therefore can cast spells, conjure spirits, and use his adept abilities.

9) Can a person possessed by a spirit with a high force (and therefore a high essence) get a bunch more cyberware installed, using up that additional essence?
A: Nothing in the RAW prevents this. But the spirit might not like being stuck in the same body for the rest of the host's life and if the spirit was ever forced out or disrupted, the host would die instantly. *** Hopefully errata will eliminate this issue by changing the phrase "use the spirit's special attributes" to "use the lower of the host's or the spirit's special attributes". ***

10) Immunity to Normal Weapons:
10 a) Does Immunity to Normal Weapons stack with normal armor?
A: Yes (with clarifications). The extra damage resistance protection provided by Immunity to Normal Weapons stacks with the extra damage resistance from body armor just like the extra damage resistance from Hardened Armor critter power, dermal armor, cyberlimb armor, Mystic Armor adept power, etc. At no time do armors reduce incoming power, but they always give you extra damage resistance dice. However, only the "hardened armor" provided by Immunity to Normal Weapons bounces weapons, so you'd need to keep track of which armor is which (SR4 p. 288).

[Synner]

Which reminds me, I need to get that Street Magic web supplemental posted sooner or later.

[Fortune]

[Ol' Scratch]

[Buster]

(SR4 Errata v.1.5 p. 3). I updated the first post too.

[Ol' Scratch]

The Errata strikes again.

[Buster]

Added the Mask/Physical-Mask illusion spell mitigation to #5.

[twilite]

Does a Mystic Adept that is possessed and Channeling keep access to his Adept abilities? Can a Spirit that is possessing someone without Channeling use their Adept abilities?

[Buster]

Good questions, I added them to the list in the first post.

[WeaverMount]

So if an adept had a possession mage on there team it might even make sense for the adept to pick up Channeling

[Buster]

True. Updated #4 above.

[Buster]

Added question #9. (no answer yet)

[nathanross]

I remember hearing that a spirit that failed the possession test could not try to possess again for 24 hours, what page in SM is this written, I do not see it in this or the official SM FAQ.

[Kyoto Kid]

...page 101 Street Magic

[nathanross]

I never distrusted that that was there KK, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't misread, don't know how I missed it. Maybe I just saw banished and thought that it only applied then. Thanks.

[Kyoto Kid]

...yeah, I've overlooked stuff in the books myself. I'd be right on the page & the text I was looking for was hiding in plain sight (bloody hell, I hate ninja writers...) :grinbig:

[hyzmarca]

If a magician of a Possession tradition summons a spirit with Endowment and makes it Endow him with Possession, then Astrally projects and possess a person or an object, does he still suffer from Essence Loss over time?

[Jaid]

[FriendoftheDork]

Look I have a question... if a character had been possessed partly, with the spirit not in control and supressed to the subconscious of the possessed (ignoring that may be impossible), would the being still show up as dual natured, would the possessed be able to see in astral space (or just the spirit)?

Since the possessed is in power most of the time, the spirits magic is overidden as if the roles had been reversed - would it still be able to use astral perception (or would a possessed adept be able to use his astral perception)?

[Big D]

[ Spoiler ]

Couple of catches... for starters, your case involves Inhabitation, not Possession. So you'd need to go by the Inhabitation Merge rules...

Except that there is no RAW case where the inhabitation process leaves the spirit in the body without killing the host. If the spirit fails to inhabit (which requires a crit glitch by the spirit), then the process simply fails and the vessel is safe from the spirit forever.

Since that's not what happened, I'd recommend treating Uzz as a Flesh Form, with a few changes. That gives him Dual Nature, Immunity to Normal Weapons, Realistic Form, and Aura Masking, plus the buffed physical stats, spirit powers, and casting.

To keep the HoG from turning him into a munchkin, I'd probably drop INW, the buffed stats, and the spirit powers/spells. Realistic Form doesn't really mean anything (it's still Uzz), and Aura Masking is optional, depending on how grotesque you want him to look on the astral (and whether KE mages will shoot first and ask questions later). One cute thing you might want to leave him with is a weakened Hive Mind power, which may at times put him at risk of being detected by the queen, or alternatively may allow him to catch glimpses of the hive's plans.

EDIT: Sorry about that.

[FriendoftheDork]

[Big D]

[FriendoftheDork]

[Jaid]

who says the immunity to natural weapons stacks with anything?

(frankly, it's the interpretation that results in by far the least headaches, and so it's the interpretation that i'm sticking with. also, iirc, that's frank's interpretation, and iirc he wrote the book on spirits... or at least the section of the expansion book on spirits =P )

[FriendoftheDork]

[Fortune]

I'm not sure how you read into any of that that INW officially stacks with other armor. It merely states that INW acts like Hardened armor.

[FriendoftheDork]

Yup, misunderstood his intent, I've edited my post.

[Fortune]

No harm, no foul. :)

[DTFarstar]

So INW doesn't stack with worn armor? Huh, I could have sworn I read somewhere that it does. I'm too tired and it's too late for me to try and find it though. Seems weird that armor spells, mystic armor, and worn armor all stack, but not INW.


I guess it helps with balance or something.


Chris

[FriendoftheDork]

[DTFarstar]

You aren't alone, buddy. I've always let everything stack because it's never seemed to affect things too much, but then again I've stated before that I'm generally better with tactics than my players(I dumb it down when the opposition is dumb, but if they have average logic or greater and training then prepare for me to break out the tactics.) Also I trust my players to both keep things within normal bounds and miss big exploits because none of them are true munchkins or rules lawyers. They aren't familiar with the rules and don't want to be.


Chris

[hyzmarca]

Stacking hardened armor and normal armor has always been a problem, since the two behave completely differently. There are no canon rules for combining the two.

Some people would suggest comparing it to the external armor to determine if it is reduced to stun, rolling the external armor to reduce the DV, and then comparing the result to the natural armor rating to determine if it penetrates.

Others would suggest just adding the two ratings and making it all hardened.

I would suggest adding only half of the non-hardened rating to the hardened armor's rating.

[DTFarstar]

I calculate hardened as hardened, if it bypasses that then I allow AP to affect the target twice. Once on the hardened check, then add whatever that modified armor value is to the normal value and then let AP hit the normal armor as well. It seems to work well balance wise and makes sense with the way I imagine hardened armor.


Chris

[FriendoftheDork]

So far there hasn't been an incident where someone with hardened armor also have worn armor (spirits generally don't wear it, although they probably could).

But for me the logical approach would be to check for no damage first using only hardened armor, and if that fails I check for conversion to stun using total armor (both times reduced/improved by AP). If that also fails the target resists as normal, adding all the dice together modified by AP.

Or why shouldn't I do that?

[FrankTrollman]

[Buster]

There's nothing in the rules that says that INW does not stack with other armor, so it does. INW stacks just like dermal armor, cyberlimb armor, etc. However, only the hardened armor bounces weapons, so you'd need to keep track of which was which.

[FriendoftheDork]

[Big D]

I'll throw out an example, based on what I *think* Frank is saying (and I may certainly be wrong).

Motoko Kusanagi is an experimental Force 6 Inhabited Flesh Form Ally camping in a borged-up body. Among other things, she has, call it 10 armor from her cyberlimbs (yes, it could easily be double that). She is wearing her favorite armor jacket (8/6), when some fool with a gun takes a shot at her, and by some miracle, hits.

If the DV does not exceed her 12 Hardened Armor (less AP), she takes no damage.

If the DV exceeds her 12 Hardened Armor, but fails to exceed her 18B normal armor (less AP), she takes stun damage, and resists in either case with her *remaining* Hardened Armor+Normal Armor+Body--which means, essentially, (Hardened Armor-AP)+(Normal Armor-AP)+Body.

So, if you're hunting spirits, and *especially* if you're hunting bugs, you want AP.

... or SNS *runs*

[Tycho]

i would say that INW don't tack because nothing stacks in SR4, unless it is mentioned in the rules. multible layers of armor doesn't stack. A mage with a possessed Force 5 Spirit is really good protected, he don't need other armor.

cya
Tycho

[Buster]

[Fortune]

I guess that's why Tycho added the "unless it is mentioned in the rules" part. ;)

[FriendoftheDork]

[Buster]

Added #11.

[Big D]

I'm just going off of what Frank posted. Synner concurred with that in another thread, and said that there would hopefully be an official resolution one way or the other at some point.

[venenum]

What happens if a spirit posseses a sword or such?

[Jaid]

[venenum]

Oh okay.

[MaxHunter]

I haven't got any mages playing with the possession tradition, but I might have one or an NPC in the future. So I do have some questions, which I believe are pretty basic... anyway;

-I always assumed those mages summoned spirits to let them possess themselves. -which is supported by tradition- now: Can they bring them to possess willing party members? unwilling foes? animals? paracritters? dual natured beings like ghouls? vampires? other manifested spirits?

I would like to know whether the above cases are possible, if these happen usually in game and what special effects would come up into play eventually.

Thanks and sorry if I am asking obvious questions.

Cheers,

Max

[Buster]

Street Magic p101 and the sidebars on 102 and 103 and this FAQ answers all those questions.

[Buster]

Added #12.

[Tarantula]

[Buster]

Updated #12 with specific passage.

[Cain]

Are the extrra stats provided by possession subject to the augmented attribute caps? Eg, if you've got all 6's in your physical stats, and are possessed by a force 8 spirit, do your stats cap out at 9?

Edit: Buster, that quote could go either way. Do you have something clearer?

[FrankTrollman]

Just like with Materialization the "service" is "use Movement on my truck" or "Use your powers all hamster style on these people during this combat", you don't spend a service to bring the spirit into the Material world and then another service to have it use physical powers or do a physical task.

-Frank

[Buster]

Well said, thanks Frank. I added that to #12.

[Tarantula]

Frank, what about my quote, where they require a service for a physical task for being dangerous? Telling a fire elemental to materialize isn't a big deal. Telling it to materialize in the ocean probably is.

[Buster]

I could see if you have the Spiritbane flaw (or have otherwise gone out of your way to piss off spirits) or if you have a habit of getting killed while possessed by spirits (because they would be disrupted if you got killed), then the spirit might refuse to possess you, but otherwise, I don't think they would have any justification for not doing their job.

[Tarantula]

I never said it would refuse to possess you. But the fact that it shares damage you take, I would say possession is a dangerous physical task and thusly, should cost you a service. (As well as not being mentioned in the examples of powers that don't take a service.)

[Buster]

Negotiation would be a perfect skill for those kinds of situations. I love the idea of using Social skills with spirits when bargaining for pacts. I've been looking for a way to use Social skills to supplement the Summoning and Binding skills. I updated #12 with that discussion.

[Tarantula]

I'd say summoning is your skill for negotiating services from a spirit. You can't summon a spirit, the negotiate with it for more services.

[FrankTrollman]

[Buster]

[Tarantula]

If you can "negotiate" that what is is a service isn't one, you just effectively got one free service. It is negotiating for more services, and thats covered by the summoning/binding skills.

[Buster]

Then what are the Spirit Friend and Spiritbane qualities for? The rules are pretty clear that there's some leeway about what the spirit will and will not give you for their services (and how much they're willing to fight you over the terms). Granted, you may have to use the Summoning/Binding skill instead of Negotiation (I prefer Summoning/Binding instead of Negotation because the less BP I have to spend the better), but there's definitely room for negotiation for what does and does not cost a service.

This post has been edited by Buster: Oct 15 2007, 06:26 PM

[Tarantula]

They are for these.

Spirit Affinity, "In certain situations, they may be reluctant to attack the character, using a nonlethal power if forced to attack regardless."

Spirit Bane, "If ordered to attack a party that includes the character, these spirits will single the character out irst in an attempt to destroy him."

Affinity means that if you have affinity for fire spirits, and an enemy mage orders one to engulf you, it might choose to just accident you instead.

Bane means even if the mage tells his fire spirit to attack your parties mage, it'll go for you first anyway, just because it hates you.

[venenum]

[pbangarth]

If entering a situation that may sometime in the future be dangerous requires the expenditure of a service, then simply being on standby in the Astral plane would also require a service, as the spirit could be attacked there in any number of ways.

[Jaid]

i would put it like this:

attack that guy over there: no service required for the possession or materialisation (just like "attack that group over there" doesn't require 1 service per target).

on the other hand, "possess me" (so that you can channel the spirit) i would consider a service, because you are giving it a specific requirement to use it's power.

but that's just my take on things.

[Tarantula]

Definately agree. Hows this. Ordering the use of a specific power for a reason takes a service. Whether thats guard me for 12 hours(even though it has to materialize/posses to use guard) or that be to merely materialize or possess me for 12 hours. Either one takes 1 service.

[Buster]

Way ahead of both of ya, I already put those exact suggestions in #12 about 4 hours before your posts. Great minds and all that.

[Tarantula]

[Buster]

Added #13 and #14.

[Buster]

Added #10 a, b, and c.

[DTFarstar]

So, am I the only one who still disagrees with 10b? I really think APDS works, and that S&S and taser work without secondary effects. I'm a little iffy on whether I like the second part, but the way I read it I think that is the way it is supposed to work.

I don't want to start an argument, I'm just wondering if I am in the minority here.

Chris

[Buster]

I don't see how, the rules are very precise. But start another thread if you like.

Personally I'd like a houserule that says all spirits are allergic to electricity of certain frequencies and to lunargent or orichalcum, but that's also another thread.

[Tarantula]

[DTFarstar]

See I agree the rules are very precise, in fact I think the same thing you do, what the rules say seems so obvious to me, but we both think they say something different. I dunno. The way I read it is it defines normal as not magical(not weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers) and since immunity gives you an armor rating = to twice its magic that is of the hardened variety, then hardened armor rules apply. Since Hardened armor mentions being effected by AP.... it seems to draw logically- to me mind you- that ItNW would be effected by AP as well.

However, apparently you guys read it differently than me. Would you mind posting your logic, Buster? I would much appreciate it.

Chris

[Tarantula]

DTFarstar, I fully agree with you that AP affects ItNW.

[Jaid]

[Buster]

INW does not give you real armor but an "armor rating" (not my quotes, the quotes are in the rule description) against certain forms of physical attack. It specifically says that it only affects non-magical weapons and ammo and it specifically lists what it means by what is magical. There is even a completely different power called "Hardened Armor" that does in fact work exactly as you guys describe. Immunity to Normal Weapons is not the same power as Hardened Armor. The rules couldn't be any clearer.

[Jaid]

immunity to normal weapons explicitly references the rules for hardened armor as being how they work, first of all.

and secondly, there is nothing in the description of immunity to normal weapons that says AP modifiers do not apply. if it is an armor rating, then those things which change armor ratings will change it.

[ThreeGee]

[Buster]

From a fluff standpoint it makes no sense for AP armor or shock weapons to work on spirits either. Spirits are made from astral ectoplasm, "quicksilver and shadow" as the book says. Immunity to Normal Weapons represents their protoplasmic substance and otherworldly physiology, not a thick hide or set of platemail.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't shock weapons like tasers work by running an electric current through an living creature's nervous system, disrupting brain, nerve, and muscle function? Spirits are not living creatures nor do they have muscles or a nervous system.

[DireRadiant]

And lightning don't make big holes in the ground neither.

[Tarantula]

In which case, it makes no sense for spirits to use armor rules at all, they should've gotten a completely different set to establish that it isn't armor. Since they didn't, it is armor, and is treated as such.

[Fortune]

I think that if AP was not supposed to be applicable when damaging, or attempting to damage Spirits, this exception to the normal rules would have been specifically mentioned.

[ThreeGee]

Absolutely, fluff is just fluff.

Shadowrun's always been like that.

[Tarantula]

[FrankTrollman]

:raises hand:

To the best of my knowledge, AP affects ItNW. That's the way it's written in the basic book, that's the way we discussed it working while writing the rules in Street Magic.

-Frank

[Buster]

I'm shocked that the intention all along was that spirits do in fact have plate armor. Sheesh, I was so happy that for once the RAW was completely in sync with the whole "quicksilver and shadow" amorphous form fluff. But it turns out that coherence was completely accidental.

I'll update the FAQ then. You guys better not be Mob Minding me. :D

[Tarantula]

Actually, it wasn't in sync with that at all.

[Buster]

That's what I'm saying, it turns out that the rules and the fluff are in fact completely out of synch.

Updated the FAQ by the way.

[DTFarstar]

Sorry, Buster, please don't hate me. I really thought the majority sided on your side of the fence from the way I saw the thread that people were using a few days ago, I was just wondering what you guys were seeing that I wasn't. So... don't hate me.

I blame Frank!

Speaking of which, I just got my hardcopy of Street Magic and was reading it literally cover to cover when I noticed that Frank Trollman was actually credited, so my question must become "Is that your actualy name?" I always assumed it was just a nickname or something because you liked/hated/acted like a troll or something. Which it could be your pen name or something as well, but it would really be great if your name was actually Trollman.

Chris

[darthmord]

[Fortune]

[DTFarstar]

We aren't saying you can't, we are saying the intent and the rules as they are currently written and most obviously interpreted is that since it says it works like hardened armor, and hardened armor explicitly allows AP, then AP applies.

I'm not sure one way or the other how I like it. It gives mundanes more of a fighting chance vs. spirits, but it really doesn't make that much damned sense in the way the fluff describes spirits. Whether or not I like it though, the way it is written is important because I need to have a baseline for interaction between other players not in my group.

Chris

[laughingowl]

I can see Busters point, but all for 'simplicity' I would go with AP affect ItnW.

Hower it is much like dual-natured:

[DTFarstar]

[Buster]

[Buster]