 Stick n' Shock, Is it broken? |
 Aug 16 2007, 02:51 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-February 07 Member No.: 10,958  |
I'm playing a covert ops character who uses nonlethal takedowns, and after a little thought there's a lot of potential for abuse there. The Defiance taser is low range and low rate of fire, so the unusually high damage seems like a fair trade.
However, stick n' shock ammo damage is independent of the gun firing it. This allows you to put it in a light pistol like the Yamaha Fubuki or machine pistol and use burst or fully auto to do a lot of damage in a distressingly small package. I initially thought that S&S would be useless when facing drones and the like, but electrical damage offsets that. Imagine what shooting a computer with a taser would do to it's components, and you're looking at a similar situation. I haven't checked the drone rules in a while, so please correct me if I'm mistakened on this. Are there disadvantages to doing this, or is it just broken? I suppose, at the same time, are there any advantages to using my Defiance taser when my Fubuki does the same damage at better range and is also SA? |
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Aug 16 2007, 02:57 AM
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Compared to Tasers, yes, it's a great choice in practically every way except price and SS/SA modes.
Compared to Gel Rounds? Not that big of a difference depending on the weapon type, though it's definitely a better choice on smaller pistols. It's also more than 150% more expensive per shot. Stick-n-Shock is nice, but it's not as game-breaking as a lot of people seem to make it out (and no, something being a bit better than cheaper alternatives is not any more game-breaking than an Armored Jacket vs. Armored Clothing or a Meta Link vs. a Fairlight Caliban commlink is). |
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Aug 16 2007, 09:28 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, Dr Funk.
I believe Stick n' Shock is broken for two reasons: 1) It is more powerful than equivalent lethal ammunition. I believe the choice to make a non-lethal takedown should be a hard one. Shadowrun is a gritty, hard world: you can either be effective or you can be humane. 2) Its independence from weapon type allows assault-rifle scale damage in a machine pistol. This kind of destroys the correlation between the amount of scrutiny a guns-based character will be put through and the amount of damage he will be able to dish out. I believe if you can only bring a pistol past security, and the guards have SMGs, that's supposed to have an effect. So it's not that it's directly overpowered in an absolute sense: it's very expensive, only slightly better than Ex-ex and easier to counter (Nonconductivity). The problems are that it destroys some other subtleties of gunplay in SR, while simultaneously blowing all other non-lethal takedown methods off the map. |
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Aug 16 2007, 09:32 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
With regards to 1, this is actually the case with most non-lethal take down methods in SR, until the errata, gel bullets were more damaging than normal ammo, and stun bolt is easier than mana bolt. 2 Is a problem. Almost tempted to come up with some handwavy stuff along the lines of it uses the lower of the two damage values, the problem is justification. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:01 AM
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#5
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
1. If it didn't exist, the same complaint would be made against Gel Rounds. Or APDS ammo. Or EX Explosive ammo. Or the doubtlessly upcoming Capsule Rounds. Or some other ammo type of choice that's better than Regular ammo. Stick-n-Shock is just getting the brunt of the "hate" because it's one of the better -- albeit significantly more expensive -- options. Especially for an automatic weapon. If you feel your game isn't gritty and hard enough because players are using nothing but Stick-n-Shock, tone down the amount of free cash you're distributing, give opponents more Nonconductive modified armor, and/or just say 'no.'
If nothing else, it gives players a reason to select a less conspicuous weapon, assuming they choose their gear based on "what gives me the most pluses." Hold-Out/Light/Machine Pistols are all really pathetic choices unless the GM cooks up a contrived reason otherwise, or has weapon checks be a serious concern way too often. In which case does it matter that they're doing good damage at all? 2. Steyr TMP with Stick-n-Shock vs. Ares Alpha with APDS. One is 6S(e) damage with -half AP (usually equal to -1 to -3 on typical opponents), one is 6P with -5 AP (completely ignoring armor or being about the same as the former on typical opponents). One is affected negatively by Nonconductive armor, the other ignores it completely. One bounces off walls, one shoots through walls. One has no integral recoil compensation, the other has two points for free not including the stock. At best one can have 3 points of recoil compensation without external mods, the other can have 6. One is stuck with those stats without getting signifcantly worse, the other can use the same ammo as the former and still get all the recoil perks. Feel free to switch the second weapon with an SMG and/or use some other good ammo choice like EX Explosive. How exactly is the former option equal to or better than the latter in all situations again? I can't quite figure it out. EDIT: And as an aside, the Machine Pistols in SR4 are just slightly smaller SMGs as far as I can tell as opposed to an automatic pistol, and I don't know much of anything firearms. So your comparison of a runner with a Machine Pistol being nearly equal to a guard with an SMG isn't really that big of a difference as far as believability goes. Least not for me. Especially since the former is merely incapacitating a guard whereas the guards are actually killing you. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:09 AM
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#6
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Just ask your GM if he's ok with a full auto taser with the range and capacity of a machine pistol. If that's fine with him, it's not broken. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:16 AM
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 9-June 06 From: Oxford, UK. Member No.: 8,687 |
Well, if you ever thought that Stick'n'Shock needs fixing, a quick and easy way would be to state that the number of hits on your firearms roll does not add to the amount of damage.
That way, targets would take 6 damages top - the only way to improve the effect is to call shots to bypass armor further. However, a short burst with 3 s'n's would mean 3 different soak tests, instead of adding +2 to the damage. That way, a S'n'S long burst could really bring something biggish down, but it would be quite expensive, and a long burst of regular ammo would be just as effective... I suppose it needs to be tested... Anyway, just a thought. Cheers, Fumble. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:16 AM
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Then ask him if he's okay with a Club that negates half a person's armor, does more damage in most people's hands than said Club, and does taser damage. If he's okay with that, then a Stun Baton isn't broken. Then ask him the same thing about an Unarmed Strike. If he's okay with that, too, then a Stun Glove isn't broken. Then ask him if it's okay that the former is better than the latter. If he's okay with that, then the Stun Baton still isn't broken. (OMFG! You mean some choices are better than others?!? And OMFGx2! There's a similar theme amongst stun weapons in the game?!? Holy cow. And double yowza when you ignore all the other little details that should be going into consideration, too, like price, availability, and legality.) If that's not good enough for you, we can keep going. Ask if it's okay that there's a Commlink that's better in all ways to the Meta Link. If he's okay with that, the customized Fairlight Caliban isn't broken. Ask if he's okay with a Stunbolt that affects an entire group of people. If he's okay with that, then Stunball isn't broken. Ask if he's okay with there being armor that's nearly twice as good as Armored Clothing. If he's okay with that, then Armored Jackets aren't broken. Blah blah blah. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:17 AM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
If full auto taser with the range of a machine pistols are considered a dangerous threat by security forces, they'll soon install nonconductive options on all uniforms, if they think the price is worth it (and I think it is).
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Aug 16 2007, 10:32 AM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 92 Joined: 15-July 07 Member No.: 12,262 |
If a stun baton or glove was capable of fully automatic fire, had the range of an assault rifle, and was capable of engaging multiple targets in a single attack then, yes, I would question it. As such, would you really ever use anything else? Melee weapons become nicely balanced when they can be more powerful than ranged weapons, since you have to be in melee range to use them. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:44 AM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It flew right past your head. The point is -- dun da da dun! -- there are weapons that are superior in practically all ways compared to other weapons in the same basic category. A Club vs. a Stun Baton -- both Reach 1 Clubs -- is a perfect example of this. If you're choosing weapons based purely on their stats, which is the entire point of all this, then there's no reason to pick a Club at all unless you have amped your Strength way way way up, to the point where you're not only doing 6S with the club, but overcompensating to get past the electrical damage and the AP bonus the Stun Baton provides. And those are two weapons in exactly the same category! Unlike Tasers and Machine Pistols with Stick-n-Shock ammo. It's also ignoring all the secondary traits which, again, include price, legality, and availability. Which are pretty much the only reason there ever is to pick an inferior type of item over a better one. You may as well be complaining that people choose Light Pistols over Hold-Out Pistols. Or that people choose a Katana instead of a Sword. Some differences are minor but still there, others are more noticeable. That doesn't change the basic concept. And, also again, if Stick-n-Shock ammo didn't exist, people would find some other ammo type/weapon to complain about because they, too, were obviously better choices than other options. Be it an SMG with APDS ammo vs. an Assault Rifle with Regular, an Assault Rifle vs. a Light Machine Gun, or the aforementioned Club vs. Stun Baton. Nevermind that you actually do have an option. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:56 AM
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#12
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, the details for the examples you listed aren't those. They are technical restictions like limited 'ammo' versus non-limited, etc. Price, availability and legality are pretty much trivial differences for Runners. If you break into a facility, shoot people up and steal stuff on a regular, what gun you use is second tier. The issue with S&S is that is has the same range... same range means same speed, and same speed means that the projectle goes from LTL to L. And if you remove propellant to fix that, your gun won't autorepeat... exept for the YSF. |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:06 AM
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That or the round isn't at all aerodynamic, or it converts some of the energy into its charge, combines impact with a charge for the net effect, or whatever other bullshit reasoning you want to come up with for a fictional type of ammo.
Love how it's gone from being metagame issues to reality-based ones, though. But since we're now changing the topic completely on a whim, I choose to bring inthe Trauma Damper. Silly implant reduces a Stick-n-Shock hit by one box, but if you did the same thing with an assault rifle it'd only move one box to Stun from Physical! How absurd is that. :please: |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:11 AM
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#14
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure. 'Phasers set to stun' is what everyone wants in SR.
Just an example for similar technical restriction to 'stun batons have 10 charges'. |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:12 AM
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You are using real world mechanics in a fictional make believe virtual world. Free. Your. Mind. What are the opposition in your games? Are they RAW? If they are, then I see no reason why S&S are any more powerful than any other type of ammo. You pay for the quality, you get the result. And I agree with Funk and I do not agree that his argument is a straw man argument. Price, availablity and legality are important factors if you do it by the RAW. |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:17 AM
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No. See above.
Then point me a RAW Grunt that is euipped with armor with Nonconductivity upgrade.
So ExEx from a light pistol is better than S&S?
Yes, that totally explains why ExEx is superior to S&S... after all it costs more, is harder to get and illegal. :S |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:59 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 92 Joined: 15-July 07 Member No.: 12,262 |
Sorry about missing your point earlier, doc. its been a long night
To be fair, S&S ammunition does have one massive flaw, non conductive armor. It renders the ammunition worthless, am I correct? So, if, as a GM, you find your players abusing S&S ammunition, just start issuing your NPCs nonconductive armor. If your gun bunny brought nothing but S&S out with him, he is is going to be worthless as he will be incapable of inflicting any damage. If he claims it unrealistic that everyone is running around with nonconnductive armor, just explain that security forces have been having it issued ever since there had been a string of jobs lately where the runners were using S&S While, ya, sure, it can be over powered, it can also be totally nullified (unless of course I'm mistaken about nonconductive armor, in which case, ignore this post) :P |
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Aug 16 2007, 12:14 PM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
IIRC Nonconductive armor adds its rating to the damage resistance test... which is good but not that good
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Aug 16 2007, 12:24 PM
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Yes. Because the Stun Baton "ammo" rule is a Shadowrun rule. It is only because you see it as fitting into your preconcieved notion of reality that it seems that way. Therefore, yes. No need for non-conductive. 3 words. Full Body Armor on Red Samurai or Tir Ghosts and you got to fill up all of their CMs, unless the GM thinks that "mission parameters" dictate otherwise. For most of the other Grunts, S&S is simply overkill. So is a S&S better than EX-EX from a Panther XXL? If you spend 15 BPs for Magician and install cyberware till you burn out, does that mean that Magician is worse than cyberware? If you insist on being wasteful, then be my guest. EX-EX is better. See EX-EX Panther XXL. Afterall, it kills you dead. |
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Aug 16 2007, 12:42 PM
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#20
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No. It's a technical restriction beyond availability, etc.
You do realize that the more armor you wear, the better S&S gets per RAW?
Assault cannons use special ammuniton only per RAW. Both ExEx and S&S can be fired from a light Pistol. Please compare.
That makes it usually the worse choise. |
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Aug 16 2007, 12:54 PM
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#21
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
It is still a game mechanic, in addition to availability, etc. Yes, but who are wearing them? And those are just the Grunts. Prime Runners aren't included yet. They can fire special S&S and special EX-EX then. Nothing in the XXL description says that they cannot. But alright, the Ultimax HMG can fire both SS and EXEX. Please compare. Actually it is the better choice. It doesn't really matter for grunts but it kicks in for Prime Runners. If the GM HOG the NPC, then he burns all Edge for the NPC. |
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Aug 16 2007, 01:19 PM
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#22
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indeed. One that limit's the power after you got it.
And that factors into the low-cost, easy-hidden, semi-legal weapon sector how?
Per RAW, grunts are the usual encounter, lieutnants are special, and Prime Runners are rare. So the point remains. |
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Aug 16 2007, 02:00 PM
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#23
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
So? It is not the only limit. And that factors into the "Use the appropriate ammo for the appropriate weapon for the appropriate situation". Also it depends on the Perception threshold value that the GM assigns the weapon/s. Unfortuately, there are no canon weapon examples in the Perception Test Thresholds. Yes and it doesn't matter what you use to get rid of the grunts! The grunts that do care about you using SS will run away whether you use SS or not. It's overkill. If you encounter the other grunts, you got bigger problems than SS is going to able to solve. The point remains. |
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Aug 16 2007, 03:16 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
I guess I shouldn't mention what you can do with a AGL loaded with stun grenades...
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Aug 16 2007, 03:23 PM
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#25
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's the only limit if you actuall use said gear.
Not, that factor into: load the YSF always with S&S.
Actually, there are Perception Tests modifiers for weapon size.
Sure it does. Faster is better. |
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Aug 16 2007, 03:30 PM
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#26
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Our group had issues with stick & shock ammo, we compensated by making it only available as a shotgun round. Solved a lot of problems.
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Aug 16 2007, 03:57 PM
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#27
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I did the same thing. |
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Aug 16 2007, 05:29 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
I reduced the base damage of SS to 4. (Like serbitar). The strange thing is that the players still chose SS over other ammo when appropriate (when they don't want to kill someone as opposed to just remove threats asap), but it means tasers are used alot as well.
FYI I've nerfed Flechette, EX-EX, EX, Gel ammo as well. Otherwise I agree EX-EX is even more overpowered than SS. |
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Aug 16 2007, 05:54 PM
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#29
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...weren't Flechette and EXEX already nerfed by the FAQ? Gel rounds are fine the way they are. |
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Aug 16 2007, 06:13 PM
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#30
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..more than the Errata v1.5? |
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Aug 16 2007, 06:42 PM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-February 07 Member No.: 10,958 |
Special ammo was a significant problem prior to errattaing it. A Warhawk with EX-EX ammo was 20% weaker than a Panther XXL, could be concealed, and was much much cheaper in terms of both the weapon itself and the ammo. The only real downside was the range difference.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, the downside to flechettes was almost perfectly offset by using I instead of B armour. This made the Viper Slivergun disgustingly powerful. However, the erratta has now made EX, EX-EX, Gel, and flechette ammo much less powerful. It didn't touch SnS, which really makes SnS more powerful in relation. |
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Aug 16 2007, 07:46 PM
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#32
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Yeah KK was pretty bad ass with that combo: 8DV / -4AP. Turned her revolvers into true hand cannons. My character Violet gave up the Slivergun when flechettes were changed. She now packs a Hammerli with S&S and a Fabuki with EXEX. Actually Gel is still +2DV / +2 AP the last time I checked. |
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Aug 16 2007, 08:22 PM
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#33
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Check again.
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Aug 16 2007, 08:31 PM
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#34
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...apparently all the links to the "official" site (where FAQ 1.5 was posted) have been broken.
Keep getting URL error 404 |
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Aug 16 2007, 08:34 PM
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#35
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Here.
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Aug 16 2007, 08:43 PM
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#36
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...thanks. I believe that is the way I have been playing them all along. Don't have my books at hand right now (at work) so I am not sure what the 3rd & 4th lines of text were that were replaced. I'll have to check when I get home. |
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Aug 16 2007, 10:54 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
Oi, for all you guys using the word 'RAW: RAW, Rules As Written, pertains to specific rules that are not optional (In theory, GM choice is the final decider). So, the Variant rules listed after, say, Edge, are not RAW. They are optional. Nor do most Theme based writtens count! The acronym shouldn't be thrown around for every little thing you pick up from the books text to prove points.
Ok well, use it how you wish, but that was originally the use of the term. And no, I don't think SnS is broken. If somethings broken every player will grab it from the get go. I've yet to see one. |
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Aug 16 2007, 11:08 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 92 Joined: 15-July 07 Member No.: 12,262 |
Thats not necessarily true. S&S are non lethal. A lot of players will 90% of the time never ever read anything listed as non lethal, regardless of how over powered it might be. Its still non lethal, and a lot of players will pick lethal over non lethal out of principal, just because their characters are supposed to be mindless killing machines. I've seen players that find the advantage to non lethal take downs. They would subdue their opponents, once they were all on the ground, they would walk up to them with a silenced heavy pistol and put a round between their eyes. |
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Aug 17 2007, 01:04 AM
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#39
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, you have to factor in the other limits, because you have to get said gear to use it. Load your YSF with SS. It could be appropriate ammo for appropriate weapon. But whether it is the appropriate weapon for the situation? There are Perception Test modifiers, not Perception Test Thresholds, for weapon size. There is a difference. No. As I said, overkill. If you take an average of 2 shots per Grunt with a APDS or EXEX or even a normal round, it will take average of also 2 shots per Grunt with a SS. |
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Aug 17 2007, 02:56 AM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Some of it, yeah. Flechette are same as errata (but limited to double impact - leather armor providing +7 dice to resist is a but too much compared to 0 with nonarmored). For Gel I use same as flechette. EX-EX is +2DM, +1AP, EX is same except only +1DM. So worse than 1.5 I think but still usuable to get alot of damage. |
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Aug 17 2007, 03:33 AM
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#41
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
A point that a few people are making is that SnS fired in a burst does 3 hits of 6S(e). This is incorrect. It replaces the weapons damage with the 6S(e). The burst rules still apply. So a short narrow burst with SnS does 8S(e).
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Aug 17 2007, 04:40 AM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Stick-n-shock is relatively balanced, power-wise. The biggest problem that some people have with it is that it seems to make tasers worthless. But that assumes that tasers are meant to be on a par with stick-n-shock to begin with. If you look at the stats for tasers, you will see that they are very cheap, use cheaper ammo, and are not restricted like guns are. Tasers are less of a shadowrunner weapon, and more of a weapon for, say, a mall security guard.
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Aug 17 2007, 05:58 AM
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#43
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That is binary - eitheryou have it, or not. It you got it, it's not a limit anymore. And the 'limit' we are talking about for S&S is 'Go into the nearest store and buy it' - it's as regulated as regular ammo, but as good as illegal ammo.
It always is for handguns, and that's the problem.
Indeed. Which by RAW means that one hit is enough.
Not for handguns. |
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Aug 17 2007, 02:59 PM
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#44
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I disagree. I don't see how extra rounds of S&S stage up the DV. S&S imparts an electrical charge preset in the ammo's design. If you hit someone with two taser rounds it is two separate taser rounds. Effectively S&S are taser rounds without the wires. The staging up of kinetic rounds is based on the fact the bullets are causing damage by kinetic energy. By the phrase "sticks to the target", means that S&S does not cause any kinetic damage and only delivers the electrical charge. On the question I had about Gel rounds, I looked over the description in the Core rules with regard to the updated errata. So, apparently it no longer adds the +2 to the weapon's DV, correct? |
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Aug 17 2007, 03:04 PM
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#45
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I use the same rule, except I consider it more a modification to the AP rules than flechette. I go with, "Positive AP modifiers can not more than double armor values." It almost never matters, but those rare times when it does come up (i.e. flechette vs very lightly armored opponents) I really like the effects. |
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Aug 17 2007, 04:02 PM
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#46
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
So? You still have to go get it. If you only look at a limited picture, sure it is no longer a limit, but if you look at the entire supply chain, it remains so. It is the same for Stunbolt vs Manabolt. The limit is you can get 4 times the regular ammo for the weapon if you loaded it in regular. No. It is not. Pain Editor Prime Runner is one example. Obvious is when you are using the gun. Obscured is when you are hiding it under your jacket. 3 hits. Perhaps it is so at smaller dice pools than my group is used to. Still, it is a matter of using the proper ammo for the proper weapon. |
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Aug 17 2007, 04:23 PM
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#47
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's still a R item, so you can get it from WeaponsWorld... not bad for ammo that is better than illegal ExEx.
But less APDS/ExEx. Per that reasoning, those should be better for handguns.
So there are RAW thresholds? :P |
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Aug 17 2007, 04:27 PM
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#48
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Then RAW disagrees with you. ;) |
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Aug 17 2007, 04:32 PM
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#49
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I didn't see anything specific regarding S&S and Burst/Autotfire.
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Aug 17 2007, 04:49 PM
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#50
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
And thus, it uses the normal rules.
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Aug 17 2007, 05:13 PM
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#51
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If I were to assign a Threshold value, Obvious and Obscured are what I'd go by. There are no specific Threshold values for the guns themselves. A pistol has the same threshold value as a rifle, for instance. |
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Aug 17 2007, 09:55 PM
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#52
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-February 07 Member No.: 10,958 |
Narrow bursts up the damage value at the expense of recoil. That works the same way for S&S as for anything else. Separating it by bullet takes entirely too much time and die-rolling.
There is one advantage to a taser over S&S, price. A Defiance taser uses darts with wires, which are retracted and reused. There's no ammo cost involved for using it. My cover op character carries a Fubuki with S&S, but also has a taser. The taser is for easy takedowns to save on ammo costs, the Fubuki is really there for when things hit the fan. The risk there is that the taser is SS and may not put somebody down, while a doubletap with the Fubuki probably will. |
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Aug 17 2007, 10:35 PM
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#53
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Where does it say that the ammo is reused? Since it has ammo capacity I assumed it had several darts and wires, and that the wires self-destruct after delivering the charge, freeing the gun for a second shot. There is tech for it already with myomeric rope (or whatever it's called). |
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Aug 18 2007, 12:02 AM
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#54
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
you're thinking of the stealth rope/cable/whatever. the truth of the matter is that the defiance really makes no sense whatsoever... the only difference fluff-wise between it and the pulsar is that the pulsar doesn't have the wires. they can, however, use the same ammo, and while the shocker would (presumably) still have the dart in you the turn after it doesn't seem to allow you to hit them a second time with that dart... you actually have to shoot a second time, hit a second time, and transfer the energy a second time. what's more, you can use it in melee an unlimited number of times apparently (unlike other electrical damage weapons, it has no listed limit... unless you use the darts, in which case the power wouldn't be in the shocker) and it does more electrical damage than other melee weapons that do electrical damage. really, the shocker just doesn't make any sense at all if you try to think about it... i mean, why isn't the shocker's power source used for stun batons, for example? |
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Aug 18 2007, 12:02 AM
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#55
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Maybe you guys play with lower power levels or less aggressive players than I do, but for the most part if I'm using the grunts from the book, I expect my players to handle them quickly and easily unless I throw alot of cover and tactics at them, if they are ambushing at all then just about anything below rating 5 sec forces go down in 3-6 seconds. I mean the healing mage uses a predator with ex-ex and kills most grunts in two shots and she isn't specialized at all in pistols. So, I don't really see the ammo differences coming into play too much until we hit enemies I made personally or entrenched forces and in both cases S&S is usually worse because it rarely takes off more Impact than the 6 they get in nonconductive. I mean, it is relatively cheap so why wouldn't you spring for it if you are a decently affluent person. Any Prime Runner or personally made enemy will probably have it. In a world of S&S and Lightning Bolt/Ball, I think it would be silly NOT to have it if you expect combat on a semi-regular basis.
Chris |
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Aug 18 2007, 12:27 AM
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#56
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-February 07 Member No.: 10,958 |
Hmm, wires that break down like stealth rope hadn't occurred to me, but also make sense. It's really interpretation at that point. Even if the ammo is consumed, it's still regular taser ammo rather than the much higher price for S&S, especially since the taser fires one at a time rather than bursts like the Fubuki. Edit: I assumed the taser would fire off it's darts and then retract them, which is why the taser is SS rather than SA, and that the 4 shots is the battery charge. |
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Aug 18 2007, 03:37 PM
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#57
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Well if it used steath cable wires (and it does say wires, not wire), it would make sense that you had to shoot a second time. As for the melee capability, it's not specified if you need to recharge it or if it has some magical ability to stun forever with no external power scource. I think we either can assume it has ten charges just like the prod and the glove, or that it uses it's own ammo capacity also in melee despite no darts are fired. Ted: The shots are desbribed as Taser Darts in the ammo section - so I think it's safe to assume that the Defiance uses more than one. I still think it also only has 4 charges (to go with the darts) to make sure it's not a better melee weapon than the Stun baton (which have higher availability, is restricted, and is more expensive to boot! |
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