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Cardul
post Jan 28 2008, 09:41 AM
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OK, to begin with: I had thought that Bunraku parlours were just a Japanese way of saying "Brothel." However, in the "really pissed off yaks" thread, some comments made them sound more like just "strip clubs." However, when I did a search on Bunraku...all I found were references to a form of Japanese puppetry with 3 puppetteers for each puppet.

So, since I had never heard the term Bunraku, let alone of a Bunraku parlour before 4th Edition...can someone please explain exactly what one is?
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Fortune
post Jan 28 2008, 10:05 AM
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Basically, they are brothels where the 'hosts' and 'hostesses' are implanted with Skillwires and the like, then fed persona chips for all (and I mean all) occasions and perversions. Typically some amount of cosmetic surgery is also involved.

Hence the name 'Meat Puppets'.

I am sure that somebody else can do the tradition as it appears in the Sixth World more justice.
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Ancient History
post Jan 28 2008, 12:32 PM
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Imagine prostitutes made up to look like movie stars. And government officials. Or your ex-wife. Now imagine they think and act and talk like them too. That's a bunraku parlor. It's not a strip club, and the word does come from the Japanese puppeteer. I believe the first real description of something like it was in Neuromancer and the preceding short story Burning Chrome.
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Ed_209a
post Jan 28 2008, 02:19 PM
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There is also a extra flavor of dehumanization in bunraku parlors, because sometimes (often?) the puppet is unwilling or even unknowing. It is one thing to be forced to _do_ it, it is another to be forced to _like_ it, and not even remember what it was you liked.
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FriendoftheDork
post Jan 28 2008, 03:02 PM
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I thought it had something to do with puppets, but the 3 puppeteers makes sense - 1 is the skillwire, 1 the personafix, and 1 cosmetic surgery. All required to make the puppet move well and please the audience :)


OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun....
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Ed_209a
post Jan 28 2008, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun....

I'm with you there.

As if it wasn't dangerous enough being a teenage runaway.

It takes roughly 3k in cyberware (datajack and R1 Skillwires) to set a person up as a bunny whore. If the parlor is organized enough, the ware might even be used (from a worker whose last client was into rough stuff.)

Even high-end cybergeishas probably have less than 30k invested in them.

Worst thing is, I can see kids staying home because all the the stepdad does is beat them.
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hobgoblin
post Jan 28 2008, 04:45 PM
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turning humans into machines, if thats not a core of cyberpunk i dont know what is...
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knasser
post Jan 28 2008, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE (Ed_209a)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun....

I'm with you there.


Thirded. Bunraku is nasty and some of my players would probably freak if I brought it up in the game.
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BishopMcQ
post Jan 28 2008, 06:39 PM
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It's not just Shadowrun, but the cyberpunk genre. I've played a character who was the Face and was a runaway from one of the bunraku parlors. Damaged goods was probably the kindest way to describe the baggage she had about sex and most interpersonal relationships.

Personally, I understand how a lot of people can separate themselves from what happens to their bodies with the Memory Filter blocking out what actually happened. By not having any recollection of the events, it becomes easier to justify as having happened to someone else or just a piece of meat not actually to one's self.
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Method
post Jan 28 2008, 06:44 PM
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IIRC there are descriptions of bunraku in the yakuza section of the Underworld Sourcebook.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 28 2008, 07:09 PM
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something i'd probably worry more about . . you basically have an army of mindless killing machines, if you feed them the right chips O.o
granted their attributes may be low, but heck, you just slot sniper-rifles or assault-rifles and sick em at whomever . .
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imperialus
post Jan 28 2008, 07:11 PM
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I seriously debated making my current PC (a former yak) have a thing for Bunraku parlors. Decided against it for the same reason as Knasser. It's just too twisted.
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cryptoknight
post Jan 28 2008, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 28 2008, 02:09 PM)
something i'd probably worry more about . . you basically have an army of mindless killing machines, if you feed them the right chips O.o
granted their attributes may be low, but heck, you just slot sniper-rifles or assault-rifles and sick em at whomever . .


I believe that was the plot of one of the original SR modules... Dreamchipper. I've run that module 6 times with 6 different groups. At the end when they decide if they return the chips for the cash or smash em to bits "in the process of retrieving them" I have NEVER found a group that took the cash.
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X-Kalibur
post Jan 28 2008, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Jan 28 2008, 03:21 PM)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun....

I'm with you there.


Thirded. Bunraku is nasty and some of my players would probably freak if I brought it up in the game.

Disturbing? Perhaps, but it remains one of the few really meaty (if you'll forgive the pun) ties Shadowrun maintains with cyberpunk. I think it can be used in a game quite tastfully at that. You don't have to go into explicit detail with it after all, unless of course the players really want to.
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Fortune
post Jan 28 2008, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun....

I dunno. I might put stuff like Halberstram's babies up near the top of the list.
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JonathanC
post Jan 28 2008, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
Imagine prostitutes made up to look like movie stars. And government officials. Or your ex-wife. Now imagine they think and act and talk like them too. That's a bunraku parlor. It's not a strip club, and the word does come from the Japanese puppeteer. I believe the first real description of something like it was in Neuromancer and the preceding short story Burning Chrome.

George Alec Effinger had a whole culture around this sort of stuff in his Budayeen series (When Gravity Fails, A Fire In The Sun, et. al). The main difference is that people were doing it to themselves, which kind of makes it creepier in a way. Sort of. The main character is kind of coerced into getting wired though, which opens up a world of problems. The narration during the periods when he's under a different personality is...weird.
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mfb
post Jan 28 2008, 07:30 PM
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the concept springs at least partially from Molly Millions, who spent time as a sex worker with a memory cutout, saving up money to pay for the combat implants she wanted. she found out later that during the memory cutouts, they were forcing her to do really rough stuff.

i like the bunraku concept because it allows me to introduce some really dirty, nasty concepts to the game--real stuff, but with a little fantasy twist that makes it easier to accept.
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MYST1C
post Jan 28 2008, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
I believe the first real description of something like it was in Neuromancer and the preceding short story Burning Chrome.

Molly Millions, the razorgirl from Neuromancer, tells that she earned the money for her combat cyberware working as a "meat puppet"...

Damn, too slow...

This post has been edited by MYST1C: Jan 28 2008, 07:32 PM
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hyzmarca
post Jan 28 2008, 07:41 PM
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I imagine that some bunraku parlors are classier than others.

In my mind a "true" bunraku parlor is very much live a modern day host(ess) club. Patrons sit down, eat over priced food, and drink overpriced drinks while flirting with a replica of a famous person or character. Sometimes, they sing karaoke together. Sex is never mentioned and may the parlor has a policy against sexual activity on the premises. The customer isn't paying for sex, he's paying for the experience of having drinks and singing karaoke with a famous person. Still many would allow a customer to rent a private room, ostensibly for more intimate dining, but usually for a chance to have sex with the bunraku hostess. Most such bunraku parlors would operate openly and semi-transparently, avoiding prostitution charges because there is never a direct quid-pro-quo, and some would even be respectable enough to to serve as a location for a meeting with a Big 10 CEO. In these, it can be expected, but not guaranteed, that the employees are being paid a commission, have their P-fixes removed at the end of the work day, and signed up without duress. It can also be expected that the employees get tested for STDs regularly.

There might be some based around the no-pan kisa concept, where there is no sex, just waitresses with p-fixes and cosmetic surgery serving dinner without underwear. And some would resemble a health club, with popular characters giving relaxing sensual massages which may involve below-the-waist massaging.

The low-rent brothel version staffed entirely by p-fixed sex slaves who live and work in 5x10 rooms furnished with heavily stained mattresses are often referred to as bunraku parlors by laymen but are generally looked down upon by real bunraku workers and owners, who should be eager to point out the difference.
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bibliophile20
post Jan 28 2008, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 28 2008, 02:27 PM)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Jan 29 2008, 02:02 AM)
OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun....

I dunno. I might put stuff like Halberstram's babies up near the top of the list.

Ditto; in the hierarchy of disturbing things that SR has to offer, Halberstam is at the top of the list, right up there with Deus' experiments in the Arcology.

Actually, I would put Bug spirits, Halberstam and Deus' Network all above the institution of the bunraku; at least there's a chance of escape from a bunraku parlor--not so much if you're stuffed into a cocoon, a CCU or are made into a Node.
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hobgoblin
post Jan 28 2008, 07:53 PM
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for some reason i would park both bug spirits and deus below bunraku, but halberstam above it.

bug spirits, its how the "live". there are many real life bugs that reproduce by planting their eggs into another being, the bugs just take this to a whole different level.

deus, say hello to the amoral machine...

the are more or less just another dragon, just another reminder that humans are no longer the top of the food chain.

but the next two are humans doing to humans, with no other gain then money and/or knowledge.

that just scares me on a whole different level, as it reminds me how easy it is for humans to regard their own with lesser value if they can gain something from it.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 28 2008, 08:00 PM
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Knowledge is a laudable goal unto itself. The techniques pioneered by Halberstam can save countless lives in the future and possibly give humanity a fighting chance in the inevitable war against sentient machines and then again in the inevitable Scourge.
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knasser
post Jan 28 2008, 08:03 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Knowledge is a laudable goal unto itself. The techniques pioneered by Halberstam can save countless lives in the future and possibly give humanity a fighting chance in the inevitable war against sentient machines and then again in the inevitable Scourge.


Compassion and respect for each other make the species strong. Why trade that for shaving a year or two off the pace of scientific knowledge?
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mfb
post Jan 28 2008, 08:05 PM
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compassion and respect make the species weak. everybody will live in peace and harmony--until some species that doesn't live in peace and harmony comes along and eats the peaceful species.

granted, a total lack of compassion and respect also weakens the species, because it will be too busy with infighting to unify against external threats. but still, depending on the Care Bare Stare for defense is a really bad idea.
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JonathanC
post Jan 28 2008, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Knowledge is a laudable goal unto itself. The techniques pioneered by Halberstam can save countless lives in the future and possibly give humanity a fighting chance in the inevitable war against sentient machines and then again in the inevitable Scourge.

"It's not enough to survive; one must be worthy of surviving"

-- Commander Adama, in the episode "Resurrection Ship"
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nezumi
post Jan 28 2008, 08:54 PM
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I'm going to admit ignorance. Who is Halberstam?

And for the record, the bug spirits cooperated very well (within species), and went out of their way to care for their wounded hive-mates. Look where that got THEM.
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hobgoblin
post Jan 28 2008, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 28 2008, 09:05 PM)
compassion and respect make the species weak. everybody will live in peace and harmony--until some species that doesn't live in peace and harmony comes along and eats the peaceful species.

internal compassion and respect is not the same as external compassion and respect.

as in, if its of the same species, thats one thing, but if its not, thats something else...

sadly, thats a very slippery slope as the borders may well be mobile...
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Stahlseele
post Jan 28 2008, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE
Who is Halberstam?

Basically the Dr.Mengele of SR who specialises in Matrix/Neuro-Tech

read this:
http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Echoes.htm
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mfb
post Jan 28 2008, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 28 2008, 09:05 PM)
compassion and respect make the species weak. everybody will live in peace and harmony--until some species that doesn't live in peace and harmony comes along and eats the peaceful species.

internal compassion and respect is not the same as external compassion and respect.

as in, if its of the same species, thats one thing, but if its not, thats something else...

sadly, thats a very slippery slope as the borders may well be mobile...

eh. any species' largest competitor is generally going to be itself. and in the case of humans, there's really nothing else we can practice aggression on.
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Fortune
post Jan 28 2008, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I imagine that some bunraku parlors are classier than others.

While I totally agree with this, I think that those 'classier' ones that you go on to describe are in the minority.

As an aside, do we have any evidence that prostitution is illegal in 2070? Hell, it's not even illegal now in parts of the states.
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knasser
post Jan 28 2008, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
eh. any species' largest competitor is generally going to be itself. and in the case of humans, there's really nothing else we can practice aggression on.


Any species largest competitor is generally going to be itself? Tell that to the semi-digested remains of inumerable little animals. :)

As to there being nothing else that humans can practice aggression on then what is the need to practice aggression for? I should clarify before this gets into a debate on the social necessity of competition that whilst I've used your term, the original point is one of experimentation on human life and other atrocities. Are you saying that it's necessary to practice aggression in preparation for when the aliens arrive? Or the machines try to wipe us out? Well unity will serve us better than in-fighting when the aliens come and if we stop building machines that kill, we might not have to worry about the robot uprising.

I find it hard to believe that you're arguing for the necessity of atrocities such as unwilling human experimentation.

QUOTE (MFB)
compassion and respect make the species weak.


No they make a species strong. Can you imagine a mankind achieving the things it has achieved without working together? Compassion and respect allow us to live and work together.

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knasser
post Jan 28 2008, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
as in, if its of the same species, thats one thing, but if its not, thats something else...

sadly, thats a very slippery slope as the borders may well be mobile...


A very slippery slope. I've found that one can correlate the "goodness" of a person with the broadness of the definition they give to "my kind." Is it just themself? Is it their family? Community? All mankind? Though of course that's simplistic and there are other axis to measure the inclusiveness along as well such as sexuality and religion. But the principle of what I'm saying is pretty clear, I think.

Going back to bunraku parlours, I am in no way saying that other people shouldn't include these in their games. I just know that with us, a degree of separation between reality and fiction is necessary for us to enjoy the game, else we wouldn't be able to play for worrying about the ganger we beat up. And rape in any form doesn't increase the separation between reality and fiction for myself and certain players, it brings the game into too great a level of reality which we are uncomfortable with.
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JonathanC
post Jan 28 2008, 10:47 PM
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Considering how many tree hugger organizations are willing to go up against corps, I'm kinda surprised the Yakuza haven't been targeted by any radical pro-feminist organizations.
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Riley37
post Jan 28 2008, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
any species' largest competitor is generally going to be itself.

Well, its most finely tuned competitor, wanting the exact same resources, but lots of species have had worse problems with other species, eg those that were displaced by the introduction of rabbits to Australia. Humans tend to have a top predator perspective.

Cyberpunk tends to include quite a bit of humans treating each other as non-allies. But having *some* sense of "us", someone to watch your back, is a good thing. Knasser favors taking a broad view of "us". Some Buddhists pray for *all* beings. I favor a narrow sense of "us", and the ability to make allies and cut fair deals with "them" when advantageous. Cf. the thread on Humanis Policlub; also the "start with cooperation, then tit for tat" strategy in iterated prisoner's dilemma.

My PC has been cutting deals with ghouls... and would rather see them fed peacefully, than have them go hunting. *Some* of them are fellow sentients. It's kinda borderline. If spider spirits eat wasp spirits, and don't eat humans, then hey, it can be time to ally with spider spirits.

Back to the more specific topic:

I'd hate to be a meat puppet, and I'd also hate to be shackled to an assembly line machine. One is creepy, and the other involves a risk of limb-mangling industrial accident. Seattle 2070 probably includes a few bunraku parlors, in various degrees as hyzmarca describes, in about the same proportion to total population as RL Seattle has sex workers of various sorts. Seattle 2070 might also have a lot of factories with low safety standards and workers who would *rather* be p-fixed than spend their 12-hour shift in constant fear of accident. If you eat at Stuffer Shack, or buy ammo from Ares, you're probably consuming products made in such a factory.

In a Pink Mohawk type campaign, if a runner becomes an underground hero, aka Bonnie and Clyde, or aka the "Jaynestown" episode of "Firefly", a bunraku parlor might use personafix and cosmetic sculpt to make a "puppet" just like the popular image of Our Hero, except attracted to any and every customer who walks up to the bar. If the PC meets their bunraku double, or better yet if Mr. Johnson sets up a meet at that bar and gets confused about which is which, hilarity could ensue... or rather, hilaristurbing.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 28 2008, 11:27 PM
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QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 28 2008, 08:00 PM)
Knowledge is a laudable goal unto itself. The techniques pioneered by Halberstam can save countless lives in the future and possibly give humanity a fighting chance in the inevitable war against sentient machines and then again in the inevitable Scourge.


Compassion and respect for each other make the species strong. Why trade that for shaving a year or two off the pace of scientific knowledge?

Your mistaking the maximum application of compassion to the lack of compassion.

Let us say that we have six people all of whom are compatible with each other for the purposes of organ donation, five are dying slow and painful deaths from organ (two from lungs, two from kidneys, and one from heart) failure and the sixth is healthy.

A rational compassionate individual is driven by compassion to minimize death and suffering. In this case, there are two ways to accomplish this. One can euthanize the healthy guy and distribute his organs to the other five or one can euthanize the heart patient and give his organs to the other five. Assuming that recovery from a heart transplant will be painful and that the individual's life expectancy will be reduced, one might choose to kill the heart patient. If not, then it is a pure toss up which might as well be decided by a coin flip.

Either way, the most compassionate choice is the sacrifice the one to save the many.
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JonathanC
post Jan 28 2008, 11:38 PM
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Murdering healthy people for their organs isn't compassion, it's selfishness. Or, since your example cites the "good of the many", it's mob rule. The cornerstone of compassionate philosophy is that no person has the right to make another person suffer for their own gain.

I'm sorry, but as those kids on the Internet like to say, your example is made of FAIL.
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FriendoftheDork
post Jan 28 2008, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Jan 29 2008, 02:02 AM)
OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun....

I dunno. I might put stuff like Halberstram's babies up near the top of the list.

I don't know, the bunraku seems alot like what would happen in Rl - it's realistic that's what makes it so bad.

Blood spirits, mad doctor experimenting on people, and the good old Horrors coming to end the world is less believable.

Well dr. mengele did exist, but how many mengele are there compared to human trafficking and prostitution?

And another aspect of the industry that makes it scary is that at first glance it looks neat. If you enter as a customer all you will see is gorgeus (insert prefered gender) that seem educated and savvy, seem to be enjoying themselves alot and are very turned on by you, in addition to being perfect for you preferences.

Now most men without background knowledge of this might well be tempted to try it out. Heck even the old hookers today with layers of makeup to hide beatings can fool men today (as they want to believe the hookers chose the profession).
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JonathanC
post Jan 28 2008, 11:48 PM
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Unethical medical experimentation is more realistic than a crime syndicate spending tens of thousands of dollars per person on slavery. Mengele wasn't alone; there were Japanese doctors doing similar things to POWs in WWII (we tend to forget about the atrocities commited by the Imperial Japanese, because we feel bad for nuking them), the Tuskeegee Experiments, various cases of testing medical/phameceutical things on unwitting people, usually in 3rd world countries but sometimes in America too. Occasionally the stories get picked up and adapted to fiction, like The Constant Gardener, or the odd episode of Law and Order SVU.
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Riley37
post Jan 28 2008, 11:51 PM
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hyzmarca, your example seems to assume an outside spectator with complete power over the participants, and no relevant loyalties. Let's say that the heart patient is a troll whose organs are oversized for the others, kidney patient 1 is your sister, lung patient 1 is an ork from the Underground whose buddies will avenge him, lung patient 2 is an adept who will kill you if you try anything, and you're kidney patient 2. Now what?
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hobgoblin
post Jan 29 2008, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
Unethical medical experimentation is more realistic than a crime syndicate spending tens of thousands of dollars per person on slavery. Mengele wasn't alone; there were Japanese doctors doing similar things to POWs in WWII (we tend to forget about the atrocities commited by the Imperial Japanese, because we feel bad for nuking them), the Tuskeegee Experiments, various cases of testing medical/phameceutical things on unwitting people, usually in 3rd world countries but sometimes in America too. Occasionally the stories get picked up and adapted to fiction, like The Constant Gardener, or the odd episode of Law and Order SVU.

and thats the freakish thing, these are all fully normal people that would not do such a thing on their "fellow man". but as soon as they get into the state of mind that some group of people are "sub-human", all bets are off as to what they can bring themselves to do...
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X-Kalibur
post Jan 29 2008, 12:08 AM
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Back of the subject of the Bunraku parlor you have to admit things aren't necessarily all bad for those girls. At least not so much compared to a suck-for-a-buck girl on the streets (oh wait, buck fifty now, forgot about inflation). They get to work in an enclosed and secured environment and they have a data filter installed more than likely so they don't even remember who they were with or what they did. Unless they have a Molly Millions exception who got a back data filter, and even that provides some great background story. Prostitution isn't always illegal either, and in places where it is legalized it is also regulated and the girls(and boys, to be fair) are tested for and treated for STDs.

Really, wouldn't you like to be able to go to work and come home hours later without remember a thing about it instead of gruelling for however long your shift is? Really makes me think of Office Space now...
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Whipstitch
post Jan 29 2008, 12:16 AM
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Uh, yeah it just as bad, or at least it can be. Nobody ever said they have to let you go after your shift is over if you're SINless and the use of date rape drugs like laes, leal and pixie dust to wipe out memory is cheaper in the short term than installing datafilters in all your girls. There's a reason that the munecas in Caracas either find a way out of the business ASAP or end up as burnouts and die from biostress. You're signing your body over and frankly, once they'e got their hooks in you through drugs or cyberware, you're no longer in a very good position to protect yourself anymore. A lot of the parlors probably aren't so bad because it's easier to find willing employees by not treating them as if they were completely expendable, but you can still bet your ass that they ride their workers pretty hard before they're through.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 29 2008, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
Murdering healthy people for their organs isn't compassion, it's selfishness. Or, since your example cites the "good of the many", it's mob rule.

No it isn't. If there was a vote, then it would be mob rule. In this case it is a unilateral decision based on utility. That would be a dictatorship. It is necessary to do some distasteful things to minimize suffering. Besides with all variables taken into account, it is probably best to kill the person who is dying of a heart condition, as I pointed out, unless one can guarantee against rejection and other complications.

QUOTE
The cornerstone of compassionate philosophy is that no person has the right to make another person suffer for their own gain.
Which is why humane methods would be used to kill. There is suffering there. The point, after all, is to eliminate suffering. ( Of course, if one's goal is to eliminate suffering then it stands to reason that genocide is the ultimate act of compassion)

QUOTE (Riley37)
hyzmarca, your example seems to assume an outside spectator with complete power over the participants, and no relevant loyalties. Let's say that the heart patient is a troll whose organs are oversized for the others, kidney patient 1 is your sister, lung patient 1 is an ork from the Underground whose buddies will avenge him, lung patient 2 is an adept who will kill you if you try anything, and you're kidney patient 2. Now what?


If the heart patient's organs are unsuitable for the others then the best choice depends entirely on whether or not the healthy person's heart will fit the troll. If yes, then euthanizing the healthy person would have the greatest utility. If no, then we are left to trade organs between lung and kidney patients. KP1 gives up a lung to LP1 in exchange for a kidney. The same trade is made between KP2 and LP2. Or some other combination is used. The heart patient still dies, of course, since there is no heart that fits him, it is only a matter of when he dies and how much he suffers in the mean time.
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JonathanC
post Jan 29 2008, 12:31 AM
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Careful...your post is a fire hazard with that many straw men.


Loss of life is suffering. Killing a healthy sentient being solely to save the life of another being is not compassionate. It's also unethical, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jan 29 2008, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
compassion and respect make the species weak. everybody will live in peace and harmony--until some species that doesn't live in peace and harmony comes along and eats the peaceful species.

granted, a total lack of compassion and respect also weakens the species, because it will be too busy with infighting to unify against external threats. but still, depending on the Care Bare Stare for defense is a really bad idea.

Wow. If I had unlimited resources I'd buy the rights to Care Bears, make them into a rifle-toting platoon in Vietnam, and make the cartoon show about them going on patrol and getting repeatedly ambushed over the course of their 1 year tour of duty. It would be completely straight-faced and nobody would comment on the Care Bears being a bunch of bears, but instead would just act as though they were nothing out of the ordinary.
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Apathy
post Jan 29 2008, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
Killing a healthy sentient being solely to save the life of another being is not compassionate. It's also unethical, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

But it's a perfectly cyberpunk scenario, which has nothing to do with compassion and doesn't merely tolerate, but celebrates the inequalities among people of different social strata. And it happens all the time today - organ donation among Chinese prisoners is a big business, and there's plenty of urban legends (not true, but part of the collective unconscious) about travelers getting drugged and waking up in a tub of ice.
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JonathanC
post Jan 29 2008, 12:58 AM
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QUOTE (Apathy)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 28 2008, 07:31 PM)
Killing a healthy sentient being solely to save the life of another being is not compassionate. It's also unethical, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

But it's a perfectly cyberpunk scenario, which has nothing to do with compassion and doesn't merely tolerate, but celebrates the inequalities among people of different social strata. And it happens all the time today - organ donation among Chinese prisoners is a big business, and there's plenty of urban legends (not true, but part of the collective unconscious) about travelers getting drugged and waking up in a tub of ice.

...and if he was claiming that it was cyberpunk, I wouldn't be arguing. But he's claiming that it's compassionate. Perhaps you should read back a bit and get brought up to speed as to where the conversation has been.
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mfb
post Jan 29 2008, 01:21 AM
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QUOTE (knasser)
Any species largest competitor is generally going to be itself? Tell that to the semi-digested remains of inumerable little animals.

er, yeah, you're correct. lemme amend: at the top end of the food chain, any species' largest competitor is generally going to be itself.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 29 2008, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
Loss of life is suffering.

:proof:

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Wounded Ronin
post Jan 29 2008, 03:34 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 28 2008, 09:17 PM)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 28 2008, 07:31 PM)
Loss of life is suffering.

:proof:

Indeed, as we learned from "The Princess Bride", life is pain, and anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something. Therefore, logically, if we get rid of life we must be getting rid of pain as they are one and the same.

I do have one question for JonathanC, though. Do you sell bulk coffee? I go through that stuff so fast and it would save me a lot of time and money if I could get a good wholesale value.
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JonathanC
post Jan 29 2008, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 28 2008, 07:31 PM)
Loss of life is suffering.

:proof:

I suppose it's not surprising that someone who quotes the slave master from Roots would need this concept explained to them, but depriving someone of their life to harvest their organs for someone else qualifies as creating suffering.

They suffer because they are no longer able to enjoy the pleasures of life.

They suffer because their final hours are filled with the stress of knowing that they will be killed.

Their friends and family suffer from the loss of one of their own.

Either you're trolling, or you're a moron for asking me this. Pick one.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jan 29 2008, 05:39 AM
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I'm glad that there's someone else on this forum who catches the Roots reference. That was a pretty awesome mini-series, but the only reason I know if its existence and get the reference myself is actually because we watched it in my 9th grade history class. It's finding things like the Roots mini series from before my time which really adds a genuine thrill to the study of contemporary history and popular culture.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 29 2008, 06:17 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 28 2008, 10:48 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 28 2008, 06:17 PM)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 28 2008, 07:31 PM)
Loss of life is suffering.

:proof:

I suppose it's not surprising that someone who quotes the slave master from Roots would need this concept explained to them, but depriving someone of their life to harvest their organs for someone else qualifies as creating suffering.

They suffer because they are no longer able to enjoy the pleasures of life.


As WR stated, life is suffering. If not for suffering no one would ever do anything. It is, in a certain way, what makes life worth living. It is what drives us to do put so much effort into doing what we do it is what drives us to seek pleasure. The absence of pleasure is not suffering, it is merely the absence of pleasure. One might as well state that a rock suffers because it will never experience the pleasures of life.
By definition, inanimate objects cannot suffer. That doesn't mean that being transformed into an inanimate object is a good thing, just that it is the surest way to eliminate suffering. Since compassion concerns itself with the alleviation of suffering rather than the maximization of pleasure (it is utilitarianism which does so) it is correct to say that the total destruction of all life in the universe is the most compassionate act one could commit.

QUOTE

They suffer because their final hours are filled with the stress of knowing that they will be killed.

Their friends and family suffer from the loss of one of their own.


Assumes facts not in evidence.

There is no need for them to know that they will be killed at all. In fact, giving this knowledge would be counterproductive in most situations; it might encourage resistance. Also, the original thought experiment did not contain any reference to family or friends; it can easily be the case that the individuals in question have neither friends nor family.

Regardless, by your own criteria the assertion that killing one to save another causes suffering makes no sense. If the end of life causes suffering then it is a wash either way, at the very least. Of course, one might use the criteria you proposed (knowledge of impending death, number of friends and family) to calculate the relative suffering each death will cause and choose the death which causes the least suffering.

Your assertion that allowing 5 to die to save 1 is somehow more compassionate than killing 1 to save 5 doesn't make much since due to the fact that the deaths of five individuals are likely to cause five times as much suffering as the death of one individual is.





We seem to be missing each other over the issue of positive and negative causation. You seem to be coming from the position that only positive causation matters.

Logically, negative causation is just as important as positive causation is. Doing nothing is an action. If Not A causes B then by not doing A you are causing B. While most systems of laws and ethics do not hold one liable for inaction except in rare circumstances where a duty to act is presumed to exist, action and inaction are essentially equivalent in the chain of causation. If you have the ability to rescue a person and choose not to, then you are a cause of his injuries. That you choose not to because doing so would injure another is irrelevant to causation, you are a cause
either way.

And there is the rub. If you are put in a situation where you can save one by killing another then you are a killer either way. You can choose to kill through action or through inaction, but you cannot choose to not kill. It is a trap, it's a Sophie's Choice. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. The very existence of the choice forces you to be a monstrous bastard.

I'm not saying that compassionate (or utilitarian) organ harvesting is a good thing - for a variety of reasons it is not and it would be a disaster if implemented as a social policy; but in certain isolated non-repeating circumstances it is the choice that results in the least amount of suffering. Since the only choice that results in 0 suffering for all is the simultaneous unexpected death of all, causing the least amount of suffering is the best we can reasonably go for.
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JonathanC
post Jan 29 2008, 06:35 AM
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You're not sacrificing 5 to save 1, because the 1 healthy person isn't in danger unless you decide to murder him/her to "save" the others.

I'm guessing that you're some kind of failed philosophy major. Only a philosophy major would accept a statement like "life is suffering" as a scientific fact, and only a failed one would make such a poor argument in favor of something as ridiculous as forcible organ harvesting, let alone claim that it has any link to the concept of "compassion". You're reaching. Badly.

Hint: this isn't making you look nearly as smart as you would like it to.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 29 2008, 06:58 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 29 2008, 01:35 AM)
You're not sacrificing 5 to save 1, because the 1 healthy person isn't in danger unless you decide to murder him/her to "save" the others.

Then I suppose protect would have been a better choice of words. Still, you are in a position to kill them in this thought experiment. By not killing him, you are causing him to continue to live. You don't chose to not kill him, then he will not be alive. By making the choice to not kill him, you are saving his life, or protecting him from yourself.



Perhaps it is the ethical reprehensibility and social unsustainability of the organ harvesting example. We might instead choose to use the train example. You work at a railroad switching post. There are two tracks, one leading to a tunnel and one to a bridge. The bridge is undergoing routine maintenance. Around midday, an unexpected earthquake causes the tunnel to collapse. A train is due through in a few minutes and you radio the train's conductor to inform him of the situation telling him to stop. He replies that he can't; his train's brakes are damaged. If he continues on his path, the train will crash and hundreds of passengers will die. You radio the bridge maintenance crew and tell them to evacuate; they say that they can't, they don't have time. So you have a choice. You can do nothing and let the train crash, killing hundreds of people, or you can switch the train onto the bridge, killing the substantially smaller maintenance crew.

It is the same scenario, the same basic logical question; Act A kills few people, Act Not A kills many people, yet for some reason some people will say that switching the train is somehow different from harvesting the organs, though switching the train is just as much an act of premeditated killing. I can understand why, this example is cleaner, but it is still logically identical.

QUOTE

I'm guessing that you're some kind of failed philosophy major. Only a philosophy major would accept a statement like "life is suffering" as a scientific fact, and only a failed one would make such a poor argument in favor of something as ridiculous as forcible organ harvesting, let alone claim that it has any link to the concept of "compassion". You're reaching. Badly.


Argumentum ad hominem. Personal attacks don't bolster arguments. Neither does appeal to ridicule.
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JonathanC
post Jan 29 2008, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 29 2008, 01:35 AM)
You're not sacrificing 5 to save 1, because the 1 healthy person isn't in danger unless you decide to murder him/her to "save" the others.

Then I suppose protect would have been a better choice of words. Still, you are in a position to kill them in this thought experiment. By not killing him, you are causing him to continue to live. You don't chose to not kill him, then he will not be alive. By making the choice to not kill him, you are saving his life, or protecting him from yourself.



Perhaps it is the ethical reprehensibility and social unsustainability of the organ harvesting example. We might instead choose to use the train example. You work at a railroad switching post. There are two tracks, one leading to a tunnel and one to a bridge. The bridge is undergoing routine maintenance. Around midday, an unexpected earthquake causes the tunnel to collapse. A train is due through in a few minutes and you radio the train's conductor to inform him of the situation telling him to stop. He replies that he can't; his train's brakes are damaged. If he continues on his path, the train will crash and hundreds of passengers will die. You radio the bridge maintenance crew and tell them to evacuate; they say that they can't, they don't have time. So you have a choice. You can do nothing and let the train crash, killing hundreds of people, or you can switch the train onto the bridge, killing the substantially smaller maintenance crew.

It is the same scenario, the same basic logical question; Act A kills few people, Act Not A kills many people, yet for some reason some people will say that switching the train is somehow different from harvesting the organs, though switching the train is just as much an act of premeditated killing. I can understand why, this example is cleaner, but it is still logically identical.

QUOTE

I'm guessing that you're some kind of failed philosophy major. Only a philosophy major would accept a statement like "life is suffering" as a scientific fact, and only a failed one would make such a poor argument in favor of something as ridiculous as forcible organ harvesting, let alone claim that it has any link to the concept of "compassion". You're reaching. Badly.


Argumentum ad hominem. Personal attacks don't bolster arguments. Neither does appeal to ridicule.

It's not logically identical. For starters, you are again abusing the english language when you state that, in the original example, you are "causing" the healthy man to survive. You aren't "causing" anything; you're simply not killing him.

Secondly, the train example is not the same as the organ havesting example. More importantly, neither example has anything to do with the concept of compassion. In the train example, there is an immediate threat, and an immediate choice. The track *has* to go somewhere. In the organ example, you don't *have* to tear out someone's organs, and saying that you only have the choice of murdering a healthy person and giving away their organs or watching the rest of them die is simply ridiculous. And again, regardless of what you're choosing in either example, you are not making a "compassionate" choice. In the organ example, you're simply choosing to either murder someone for their organs or not. In the train example, the choice is even more ridiculous; a train with no brakes is going to crash or derail anyway. So if you choose to kill the rail crew, you're killing them AND the people on the train.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 29 2008, 09:36 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 29 2008, 02:50 AM)
It's not logically identical. For starters, you are again abusing the english language when you state that, in the original example, you are "causing" the healthy man to survive. You aren't "causing" anything; you're simply not killing him.

Secondly, the train example is not the same as the organ havesting example. More importantly, neither example has anything to do with the concept of compassion. In the train example, there is an immediate threat, and an immediate choice. The track *has* to go somewhere. In the organ example, you don't *have* to tear out someone's organs, and saying that you only have the choice of murdering a healthy person and giving away their organs or watching the rest of them die is simply ridiculous.

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00002962/ This article can help better understand negative causation.

In both examples in their most restrictive forms can be boiled down to the same logical equation.

A and B are sets

A {Some persons not in set B}
B {Some persons not in set A}

x>0

|A| = x ; |B| = x +y

If A lives then B dies
If A dies then B lives

One may choose the life-state of A

This is the basic form of a binary Sophie's Choice. There are more complex Sophie's Choices, with more sets and the potential for some overlap between sets, but this is the basic form that we're dealing with.

We could also use torture states rather than life states, IE thus you would get to choose who gets tortured. We could even create rather complex suffering functions.
The result is the same, a bad thing happens to some group and you must choose which one. You can't not choose. If you choose not to decide you'll still have made a choice.

QUOTE
And again, regardless of what you're choosing in either example, you are not making a "compassionate" choice. In the organ example, you're simply choosing to either murder someone for their organs or not.


You seem to be applying some sort of moral value to murder which is uncalled for when acting on the natural human impulse to minimize suffering. If murder results in less overall suffering than not murder does, then murder is the most compassionate choice.
QUOTE

In the train example, the choice is even more ridiculous; a train with no brakes is going to crash or derail anyway. So if you choose to kill the rail crew, you're killing them AND the people on the train.

Assuming the track is long enough and the engine can be cut off, friction would eventually bring the train to a halt.
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Fuchs
post Jan 29 2008, 09:43 AM
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I think Bunraku parlors offer a lot of opportunities for Shadowruns. The set up offers a lot for hackers, and the SimSense/VR/Skillwire/personafix angle can alos net a lot of runs - or character backgrounds.
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Serial_Peacemake...
post Jan 29 2008, 06:35 PM
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Well from a weird sort of perspective Bunraku Parlors give even hardened killers something to feel moral about. I mean really I'm *just* killing the guy, its not like I'm putting cyber into him and using him as a human meat puppet.
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JonathanC
post Jan 29 2008, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 29 2008, 01:36 AM)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 29 2008, 02:50 AM)
It's not logically identical. For starters, you are again abusing the english language when you state that, in the original example, you are "causing" the healthy man to survive. You aren't "causing" anything; you're simply not killing him.

Secondly, the train example is not the same as the organ havesting example. More importantly, neither example has anything to do with the concept of compassion. In the train example, there is an immediate threat, and an immediate choice. The track *has* to go somewhere. In the organ example, you don't *have* to tear out someone's organs, and saying that you only have the choice of murdering a healthy person and giving away their organs or watching the rest of them die is simply ridiculous.

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00002962/ This article can help better understand negative causation.

In both examples in their most restrictive forms can be boiled down to the same logical equation.

A and B are sets

A {Some persons not in set B}
B {Some persons not in set A}

x>0

|A| = x ; |B| = x +y

If A lives then B dies
If A dies then B lives

One may choose the life-state of A

This is the basic form of a binary Sophie's Choice. There are more complex Sophie's Choices, with more sets and the potential for some overlap between sets, but this is the basic form that we're dealing with.

We could also use torture states rather than life states, IE thus you would get to choose who gets tortured. We could even create rather complex suffering functions.
The result is the same, a bad thing happens to some group and you must choose which one. You can't not choose. If you choose not to decide you'll still have made a choice.

QUOTE
And again, regardless of what you're choosing in either example, you are not making a "compassionate" choice. In the organ example, you're simply choosing to either murder someone for their organs or not.


You seem to be applying some sort of moral value to murder which is uncalled for when acting on the natural human impulse to minimize suffering. If murder results in less overall suffering than not murder does, then murder is the most compassionate choice.
QUOTE

In the train example, the choice is even more ridiculous; a train with no brakes is going to crash or derail anyway. So if you choose to kill the rail crew, you're killing them AND the people on the train.

Assuming the track is long enough and the engine can be cut off, friction would eventually bring the train to a halt.

Those assumptions aren't part of the initial scenario.

And again, I suggest you look into the definition of compassion. You're trying to shoehorn the word around a different concept. It's like saying that a car is a type of bathtub, just because you put people in both of them.
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JonathanC
post Jan 29 2008, 07:00 PM
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Also, you've thoroughly derailed the thread with pages of bullshit that has nothing to do with Bunraku Parlors. Congratulations.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 29 2008, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
And again, I suggest you look into the definition of compassion. You're trying to shoehorn the word around a different concept. It's like saying that a car is a type of bathtub, just because you put people in both of them.

QUOTE (dictionary)

1.  a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering
2.  the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it


Definition 2 is pretty much the one I'm going on, since it is the only one that pertains to actions.
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Konsaki
post Jan 29 2008, 08:39 PM
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I'd love to continue reading the bickering posts between Hyz and John, they're hilarious to read but seriously... Derailing only exists to a point and then you crossover into total domination of a thread...
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bibliophile20
post Jan 29 2008, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (Konsaki)
I'd love to continue reading the bickering posts between Hyz and John, they're hilarious to read but seriously... Derailing only exists to a point and then you crossover into total domination of a thread...

Amen on that; I've abandoned the P.O.ed Yaks thread for precisely that reason, as mfb and toturi are currently hashing it out.

It's okay, though; I got what I needed from it.
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Adarael
post Jan 29 2008, 09:18 PM
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Seriously.

All I know is once, a PC's friend (who turned out to be a double agent, but oh well) got kidnapped by a bunraku parlor, and in retribution he killed the building.

So I think that says what I think of bunraku and how creepy it is. Which is lots.
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JonathanC
post Jan 29 2008, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Konsaki)
I'd love to continue reading the bickering posts between Hyz and John, they're hilarious to read but seriously... Derailing only exists to a point and then you crossover into total domination of a thread...

My apologies. It took me a while to realize what was going on, but at this point I think Hyz is just trolling. Back on the topic of Bunraku parlors, I think that realistically, the number of "involuntary" puppet operations would be fairly low. It's a pretty expensive operation to run, fairly distasteful even among Shadowrunners (judging by the comments in the books on the subject), and if the whole operation relied on kidnapping unwilling people, then having Bunraku parlors be so easy to find and up-front about what they are just doesn't make sense. They'd be raided every week, either by Lone Star or, if the 'Star is being paid off (which couldn't last long...if the op is primarily kidnapping-based, it's only a matter of time before you kidnap someone who's paying for 'Star coverage) then by relatives, rival gangs, or activists.

If people are willing to blow up factories to save a tree, imagine what they'd be willing to do to you for being involved in bunraku slavery.

Involuntary Bunraku should be the province of Yakuza of "low character", guys that even other Yaks look down on.

Of course, even voluntary work like this is fairly sad. Economically depressed people willing to literally give up control of themselves for money, selling their minds as well as their bodies. Less disturbing, but still pretty dystopian.
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Kanada Ten
post Jan 29 2008, 10:06 PM
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As hyzmarca points out, compassion has many shades of grey, but denying individuals the right to self-determination, the basic freedom to pursue happiness (however miserable life may be), is the core of cyberpunk: from wageslaves to the SINless, every choice is already made for you. Bunkraku parlors, Halberstam, Tamanous, and Insect Spirits all embody this aspect, and one has a natural reactance to it. It's the reason drugs like meth are so hideous: that person you knew is gone - add elements of BTL, and not only are they gone but a plastic soulless zombie is standing in their shoes.

I think one of the reasons shadowrun has moved away from this core is because real-life is moving away from it. People aren't being denied choices, they're being drowned in them. There's more religions, more subcultures, more cracks to fall through.

This dichotomy in 2070, where on one side you have no choices: your education, your friends, your opportunities are all pre-decided by a machine super-crunching your genome; and on the other side: the myriad fake choices of clothing styles and plethora of praying practices, where inside these set lives you are lost and constantly trying to find yourself, makes it more terrifying than cyberpunk's original dystopia.

But with nano-paste and wireless, you don't have to install any ware inside the puppets anymore. Persona fix on the fly, alter the character to match the clients responses, customize storylines and AR environments to boot.
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Serial_Peacemake...
post Jan 29 2008, 10:10 PM
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Well here is the thing though. In Shadowrun and quite a bit of cyberpunk the value system is different. People will kill to protect trees is not a big deal, because the inhibitions on killing are much lower. However this is due to people devaluing other human beings, and so using people as meat puppets is seen as less a problem than cutting down trees. After all humans are cheap and easily replaced, but trees actually are valuable to someone.
However I do agree that for the most part the Bunraku Puppets are most likely more or less willing for many establishments, but that there are lots of unwilling Bunraku, and really you can not really tell which is which by the nature of the establishment.
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mfb
post Jan 29 2008, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
Also, you've thoroughly derailed the thread with pages of bullshit that has nothing to do with Bunraku Parlors. Congratulations.

hey, hey, whoah, pal. it takes two to tango.
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Kanada Ten
post Jan 29 2008, 10:14 PM
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And, really, you're only adding to the unemployment rate by blowing them up. Maybe sneak some job training skills into the parlor's network, or self-confidence tapes, vocabulary builders...

Has no one had their team sabotage a puppet before?
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nezumi
post Jan 29 2008, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
It's a pretty expensive operation to run,

I believe it's only a few thousand for enough skillwires to run a personafix. Less if it's used and you don't care whether the girl gets an infection and dies or not. Even a toothless hooker can make that up in a month.

QUOTE
fairly distasteful even among Shadowrunners


I don't think most clients would even recognize an involuntary bunraku from a willing one (personafix, remember?) All your shadowrunner knows is the place down the street won't fulfill the fantasy he wants, but this place will, and cuts $100 off the price to boot.

QUOTE
and if the whole operation relied on kidnapping unwilling people, then having Bunraku parlors be so easy to find and up-front about what they are just doesn't make sense. They'd be raided every week, either by Lone Star or


The star only gets to raid if they can pay.

No, I joke. Even modern day prostitutes give about 10% of their tricks for free to cops. There was an article on it very recently. Cops don't ask questions because they get free services. A legitimate parlor isn't going to do that, and Lone Star doesn't get paid to take care of the SINless. If someone important is grabbed, that particular joint is busted, or the Star rescues the person discretely and makes headlines about it, then lets the parlor owner return to his business.

It isn't especially hard to make the place hard to find as well. The girl has a PERSONAFIX CHIP IN HER. I tell her to go to 12th and West and meet up with Joe, she does it. I don't have to go anywhere! If Joe happens to be a cop, well, I'm out a set of used skillwires.

QUOTE
If people are willing to blow up factories to save a tree, imagine what they'd be willing to do to you for being involved in bunraku slavery.


People are willing to blow up factories right now to save trees, but I don't see anyone going to any of the zillions of cheap, forced-sex whorehouses in the world and blowing them up.

QUOTE
Involuntary Bunraku should be the province of Yakuza of "low character", guys that even other Yaks look down on.


Why is that? It's good money. I don't recollect the Mafia saying "well, drugs are good money, but they ruin lives and bring down the value of our neighborhood. We shouldn't pursue that revenue." You think the Yaks are much different?


I can see not allowing bunraku because it hits too close to home, but arguing if you're arguing it doesn't make reasonable sense, you're just not paying attention.
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Adarael
post Jan 29 2008, 10:18 PM
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Thought about it. Wetwork job on some Japanese corp upper-management slub. Thought about re-wiring his bunraku doll's pfix to include a kill trigger, and slaving its skillwires to some combat softs.

In the end, I think we just shot him. Somehow it always seems to boil down to that.
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Riley37
post Jan 29 2008, 10:21 PM
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Try some research on involuntary labor in the United States, currently; then specify involuntary prostitution. Then try again for the same in Mexico, Thailand, etc. If current real-life law enforcement hasn't dropped it to zero, then somehow I doubt Sixth World law enforcement will do better.
There are people who are essentially alone in the world, with neither family nor nation nor any other group motivated and able to protect or avenge them; illegal immigrants are often in that state, far from family and unwilling to turn to police. Activists willing to take on Yakuza thugs (or other OC) are rare. And when it comes to sex trade, the owners are not only able to bribe cops with money, the cops, and/or the people who control the cops, sometimes include a customer or two.

I'm not saying this is a good thing. I'm saying that's how it is. I have not, myself, taken a gun in hand and a camcorder to get evidence and gone on a campaign to bust sweatshops in my hometown, nor to check that all of the employees of the below-the-waist "massage parlors" are working without any coercion or threat of handing them over to INS, so I'm not in a position to claim moral high ground.

PC shadowrunners generally oppose bunraku. PCs are presumably a small percentage of shadowrunners in most game worlds. Fluff suggests that the Robin Hood types are a minority; that makes any altruistic or honorable PCs get to feel even more special.
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Kanada Ten
post Jan 29 2008, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael)
Thought about it. Wetwork job on some Japanese corp upper-management slub. Thought about re-wiring his bunraku doll's pfix to include a kill trigger, and slaving its skillwires to some combat softs.

I was thinking more along the lines of interrogation, even beyond pillowtalk. But hell, think of all the information the Yakuza could squeeze out of clients without them even knowing.
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mfb
post Jan 29 2008, 10:30 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
and if the whole operation relied on kidnapping unwilling people, then having Bunraku parlors be so easy to find and up-front about what they are just doesn't make sense. They'd be raided every week, either by Lone Star or, if the 'Star is being paid off (which couldn't last long...if the op is primarily kidnapping-based, it's only a matter of time before you kidnap someone who's paying for 'Star coverage) then by relatives, rival gangs, or activists.

If people are willing to blow up factories to save a tree, imagine what they'd be willing to do to you for being involved in bunraku slavery.

well, bunraku parlors are not necessarily primarily kidnapping-based, at least in the sense you're thinking of it. if i were going to run a bunraku parlor, the people i'd be kidnapping to staff it would be barrens trash from parts of the barrens that my syndicate controls. and i wouldn't kidnap them, per se; i'd simply offer them credit, and then force them to work in my brothel when they find themselves unable to pay.

moreover, the Yakuza operate globally, in their way. i can see the Triads selling girls and boys kidnapped from China to the Seattle Yaks for use in bunraku parlors; meanwhile, the Yaks are selling the people they kidnap to the Vory in Vladivostok. that will certainly cut down on the number of angry parents/corps/gangers/whatever who might otherwise be beating down the Yaks' doors in search of their lost loved ones--those loved ones, rather than showing up elsewhere in the city under the Yaks' employ, simply disappear.

QUOTE (Riley37)
Try some research on involuntary labor in the United States, currently; then specify involuntary prostitution. Then try again for the same in Mexico, Thailand, etc. If current real-life law enforcement hasn't dropped it to zero, then somehow I doubt Sixth World law enforcement will do better.

indeed.
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Fortune
post Jan 29 2008, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 30 2008, 09:00 AM)
I think that realistically, the number of "involuntary" puppet operations would be fairly low.

I disagree entirely. While I do think there will be some quite classy Bunraku parlours, that doesn't mean the hostesses are altogether willing participants. I think by far the majority of these types of places will be stocked with the less-than-willing.

Less-than-willing does not have to mean kidnap victims. There are many sources for this type of work, must as there are sources for protitution and human slavery today. This is even easier, because you can program the person not to rebel against your authority.

QUOTE
They'd be raided every week, either by Lone Star


Still waiting for that quote that states that prostitution is illegal in the UCAS, or indeed anywhere in the Sixth World.

Bunraku parlours have been mentioned quite a few times throughout Shadowrun's history, so I don't think they are anywhere near as uncommon as some people seem to think.
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mfb
post Jan 29 2008, 11:42 PM
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even if you assume that prostitution is illegal in the UCAS (i think it would be, or would at least be regulated such that bunraku parlors would be illegal), it's not like that's going to stop any OC syndicate from running brothels of any sort. there are plenty of options available: at the high end, they could rent extraterritorial land from a megacorporate holding; for the midrange, they can simply portray themselves as escort services, just like today; at the low end, they can simply keep out of sight, maybe even move around some--advertising is done through word-of-mouth and message boards.
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JonathanC
post Jan 30 2008, 12:36 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 30 2008, 09:00 AM)
I think that realistically, the number of "involuntary" puppet operations would be fairly low.

I disagree entirely. While I do think there will be some quite classy Bunraku parlours, that doesn't mean the hostesses are altogether willing participants. I think by far the majority of these types of places will be stocked with the less-than-willing.

Less-than-willing does not have to mean kidnap victims. There are many sources for this type of work, must as there are sources for protitution and human slavery today. This is even easier, because you can program the person not to rebel against your authority.

QUOTE
They'd be raided every week, either by Lone Star


Still waiting for that quote that states that prostitution is illegal in the UCAS, or indeed anywhere in the Sixth World.

Bunraku parlours have been mentioned quite a few times throughout Shadowrun's history, so I don't think they are anywhere near as uncommon as some people seem to think.

Clothing manufacture is legal too, but sweatshops still get raided.
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mfb
post Jan 30 2008, 12:39 AM
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not often enough to impact the sweatshop industry.
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JonathanC
post Jan 30 2008, 12:46 AM
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Often enough to make them keep their heads down. Bunraku Parlors are practically in the phone book. They advertise, for crying out loud. If prostitution is legal, then prostitution is regulated...it would have to be, because it's a disease vector. I don't think there's enough payola to make an entire government overlook a systematic cybernetic slavery ring that operates in broad daylight. Lets be friggin' realistic here.

If it's primarily unwilling, then the supposed openness of Bunraku Parlors is ridiculous. And if it's based on Neuromancer, then it would make sense that they're actually being paid for what they're doing, rather than just being mindslaves. Besides, you make more money off of poor people than you do off of slaves.
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Whipstitch
post Jan 30 2008, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 29 2008, 07:46 PM)
Often enough to make them keep their heads down. Bunraku Parlors are practically in the phone book. They advertise, for crying out loud. If prostitution is legal, then prostitution is regulated...

:proof:


Remember too that a lot of women in Shadowrun are likely smuggled in from other places because slaves are cheaper or they could be refugees or simply SINless people working off debts in the parlor. Even if prostitution is legal in an area, smuggling in or otherwise taking advantage of SINless and keeping them in a shitty situation usually isn't (although, then again, nobody's particularly interested in prosecuting either, since nobody gives a shit about the SINless). Why do you think it always seems to be groups like the Triads, Vory and Yaks who are in on this? They have connections and applying enough pressure to ensure "cooperation" is both their specialty and what seperates them from legitimate groups.

Anyway, there's way too many variables involved to make many blanket statements and I honestly don't think the devs are too interested in spending pages upon pages on Bunraku economics when that's really something best left to individual GMs. It's a really seedy topic to begin with, so it's entirely appropriate that individual groups make the decisions on exactly how far the rabbit hole goes.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Jan 30 2008, 01:02 AM
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Fortune
post Jan 30 2008, 12:52 AM
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I want to see proof as well. The only time I even hear about a raid like this is when someone like Oprah does a special. Even then, the aftermath isn't very damaging to the company.
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mfb
post Jan 30 2008, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
Often enough to make them keep their heads down. Bunraku Parlors are practically in the phone book. They advertise, for crying out loud.

yeah, and plenty of 'escort services' advertise too. they just don't advertise things like "WE GIVE YOU SEX FOR MONEY". if you go to a men's club and all the women there look like Nadja Daviar, nobody needs to tell you that you can have sex with Nadja Daviar for a hundred bucks. deniability is a wonderful thing.

besides, bunraku parlors aren't high-profile crime. nobody cares what happens to lost runaways. especially if, as i mentioned above, the syndicates do the smart thing and import all their 'talent', while exporting their own kidnapees elsewhere. it works in the real world, i see no reason why it wouldn't in SR.
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martindv
post Jan 30 2008, 03:29 AM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 29 2008, 08:40 PM)
if you go to a men's club and all the women there look like Nadja Daviar, nobody needs to tell you that you can have sex with Nadja Daviar for a hundred bucks. deniability is a wonderful thing.

Not just look like. Close as I can tell, with the level of genetech in Augmentation they could very easily be Nadja Daviar genetically.

That would be swell.
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Ravor
post Jan 30 2008, 03:39 AM
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I guess I just don't see the point in going to the expense of genetic surgery when body sculpting is just so much cheaper, especially when fads might change and some other ultra-hot chica is in style.
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mfb
post Jan 30 2008, 04:05 AM
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Nadja's large brown nipples will never go out of style.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 30 2008, 04:12 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
Nadja's large brown nipples will never go out of style.

I certainly can imagine a bunraku customer loudly complaining to the properitor that his Nadja nipples are the wrong color.
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kanislatrans
post Jan 30 2008, 04:25 AM
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sex sells . always has , always will. Good, bad or ugly(and believe me I've seen some ugly) :D thats the way it is.
benraku parlors might be upper class or street level but as long as someone is willing to pay for the service they will be part of the world(real or otherwise ) that we live in.
you ask any hustler on the street why their out there, they will tell you its cause you cant turn 500 to 1000 bucks a night flipping burgers at McHugh's . money talks.
I lost one of my favorite characters in a benraku parlor, a dwarf coyote shaman. got a bad case of morals and tried to take out a yak enforcer. never take a stunbolt to a dikote katana fight.(grin)messy, very messy.

ok, I'm rambling. Must...get...to..coffee....pot....can't...hold...out ...much ...longer! :wobble:
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mfb
post Jan 30 2008, 08:30 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
I don't think there's enough payola to make an entire government overlook a systematic cybernetic slavery ring that operates in broad daylight. Lets be friggin' realistic here.

If it's primarily unwilling, then the supposed openness of Bunraku Parlors is ridiculous.

i just... i avoided addressing these three sentences because i wasn't sure i could directly respond without it coming off as a personal attack. but it's 3am, and this has been niggling around in the back of my mind all day. so let me try and defuse a situation before it starts by stating, for the record, that i don't hold it against JonathanC for being uninformed in this regard. there are a lot of people who are uninformed. this isn't something that most people want to have knowledge of, so they simply don't ever find out about it. now, with that out of the way:

minus the cybernetics, this is exactly what's happening all over the fucking world, every minute of every god damned day. and don't let the "all over the world" part fool you: the US is both a consumer and a provider of trafficked humans. that's what it's generally called--human trafficking, in the sense that one might traffic in produce or arms or drugs. it's a nice way of saying slavery. in some cases, it's pretty overt--gangs of armed men go around grabbing poor people and trading them up the chain for money, drugs, and weapons. in other cases, it's handled less thuggishly: someone reads about a opportunity to teach their native language to kids in another country, all up front expenses paid in return for a percentage of their wages once they arrive--but when they do arrive, they find themselves alone in a foreign country, and the man they just handed their passport to "for safe keeping" is talking about how there aren't any teaching positions open just yet, but hey, you're a healthy girl, i know this nightclub...

"there isn't enough payola"? wake the fuck up, for chrissake. there's always enough goddamn payola. the global sex industry makes billions and billions of dollars, and it's always hungry for more. if it can't find willing participants, there is more than enough money there to buy fresh meat. Seoul, Hong Kong, LA--you can't spit in some cities without hitting three girls who were brought there from another country, either under false pretenses or coercion, to have sex with strangers for money.

and that's today. that's right the fuck now. that's without corporate extraterritoriality, that's without criminal syndicates backed by draconic wealth, that's without the ridiculously overblown moral decay that sci-fi authors use to make their dark futures palatable. this is what people do to each other.
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martindv
post Jan 30 2008, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE (Ravor @ Jan 29 2008, 10:39 PM)
I guess I just don't see the point in going to the expense of genetic surgery when body sculpting is just so much cheaper, especially when fads might change and some other ultra-hot chica is in style.

I didn't say it would be widely used. Just that it is a possibility.

I have no doubt that there are niche customers who would be very particular in what they want, and can afford it. In a world today where there are restaurants that have salt and butter courses, and even such that some go so far to distinguish and emphasize the cow that the butter came from, that a true connoisseur would demand the highest quality imaginable, and pay for it.

To take Daviar for example, I can think that there are people who can and do pay for the experience of having a night with someone who is genesculpted, bodysculpted, and mentally programmed to be in all aspects that woman. Does it cost a lot to make sure she is identical, or as close to it as is humanly possible down to her natural body odor and kinesiology? Yes. Is is worth it to get the "formula" down for maybe twenty in all of North America, and fifty in the world? I have no doubt it would be.

Maybe someone wants to enjoy the best bunkraku money can buy. Maybe some syndicate got their hands on the guinea pig that was used to make sure the actress whose career was made playing her as accurately as possible was as close as possible. Maybe ... whatever.

I had a specific concept of an Archconservative Senator who became so obsessed with hating her for being a foreign-born elf who was a great dragon's translator and... everything else... that every week he would meet with such a simulacra and do things to her.
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Kanada Ten
post Jan 30 2008, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE (martindv)
To take Daviar for example, I can think that there are people who can and do pay for the experience of having a night with someone who is genesculpted, bodysculpted, and mentally programmed to be in all aspects that woman. Does it cost a lot to make sure she is identical, or as close to it as is humanly possible down to her natural body odor and kinesiology? Yes. Is is worth it to get the "formula" down for maybe twenty in all of North America, and fifty in the world? I have no doubt it would be.

I'm reminded of voodoo parlors, for some reason, and secondly Bioshock: "would you kindly unlock Dunkelzahn's safe?"
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JonathanC
post Jan 30 2008, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (JonathanC)
I don't think there's enough payola to make an entire government overlook a systematic cybernetic slavery ring that operates in broad daylight. Lets be friggin' realistic here.

If it's primarily unwilling, then the supposed openness of Bunraku Parlors is ridiculous.

i just... i avoided addressing these three sentences because i wasn't sure i could directly respond without it coming off as a personal attack. but it's 3am, and this has been niggling around in the back of my mind all day. so let me try and defuse a situation before it starts by stating, for the record, that i don't hold it against JonathanC for being uninformed in this regard. there are a lot of people who are uninformed. this isn't something that most people want to have knowledge of, so they simply don't ever find out about it. now, with that out of the way:

minus the cybernetics, this is exactly what's happening all over the fucking world, every minute of every god damned day. and don't let the "all over the world" part fool you: the US is both a consumer and a provider of trafficked humans. that's what it's generally called--human trafficking, in the sense that one might traffic in produce or arms or drugs. it's a nice way of saying slavery. in some cases, it's pretty overt--gangs of armed men go around grabbing poor people and trading them up the chain for money, drugs, and weapons. in other cases, it's handled less thuggishly: someone reads about a opportunity to teach their native language to kids in another country, all up front expenses paid in return for a percentage of their wages once they arrive--but when they do arrive, they find themselves alone in a foreign country, and the man they just handed their passport to "for safe keeping" is talking about how there aren't any teaching positions open just yet, but hey, you're a healthy girl, i know this nightclub...

"there isn't enough payola"? wake the fuck up, for chrissake. there's always enough goddamn payola. the global sex industry makes billions and billions of dollars, and it's always hungry for more. if it can't find willing participants, there is more than enough money there to buy fresh meat. Seoul, Hong Kong, LA--you can't spit in some cities without hitting three girls who were brought there from another country, either under false pretenses or coercion, to have sex with strangers for money.

and that's today. that's right the fuck now. that's without corporate extraterritoriality, that's without criminal syndicates backed by draconic wealth, that's without the ridiculously overblown moral decay that sci-fi authors use to make their dark futures palatable. this is what people do to each other.

I'm aware of the proliferation of human trafficking. I'm aware of the brothels that make use of it. The major difference is that Bunraku parlors are portrayed as being reasonably mainstream, easy to find, and most of all, *they advertise*. If Bunraku Parlors were something you had to be 'in the know' to find, or at least on the street to find, that would be one thing. If they have AR advertisements directing you to your local parlor, that's something else entirely.

You don't walk down the street and see billboards for brothels featuring eastern european sex slaves.

Read exactly what I was saying instead of latching onto a small part of it. NO, there is NOT enough payola to protect an operation like that that does NOTHING to protect itself from scrutiny. The key aspect of human trafficking that makes it so hard to nail down is that the places are mobile and cheap. You can set one up or break the operation down and flee very quickly. You don't set up a real location with setpieces designed to match whoever the girl is dressed up as, and you certainly don't have a full-service fucking MEDICAL FACILITY to put her through 20k+ in surgery.
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mfb
post Jan 30 2008, 10:05 PM
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i'm not sure we're on the same page, as far as advertising and publicity goes. please point me to an example of what you're talking about.
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Kanada Ten
post Jan 30 2008, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE
You can set one up or break the operation down and flee very quickly. You don't set up a real location with setpieces designed to match whoever the girl is dressed up as, and you certainly don't have a full-service fucking MEDICAL FACILITY to put her through 20k+ in surgery.

With AR Environments and 2070 level technology, bunraku operations are pocket sized. A cardboard box could become the Oval Office, and nanite cosmetic surgery is, at worst, van-portable.

Skillwires wouldn't be needed for all but the most insanely expensive parlors, the type that likely can afford near-extraterritorial treatment - such as renting tribal land from the Cascade Crow (using one of the many abandoned resorts as a cover).
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martindv
post Jan 30 2008, 10:53 PM
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Why do you need skillwires? I thought personafix chips were just special BTL chips. Since when do you need wires to play BTLs?
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Stahlseele
post Jan 30 2008, 11:05 PM
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because if i tell you you're a pilot that still does not mean you can fly a plane . .
the wires would be me telling you that you're the pilot while guiding your hands and telling you how to do things so you actually CAN fly the plane . .
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Kanada Ten
post Jan 30 2008, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (martindv @ Jan 30 2008, 05:53 PM)
Why do you need skillwires? I thought personafix chips were just special BTL chips. Since when do you need wires to play BTLs?

IIRC, you don't need skillwires to use p'fix chips, only to perfectly mimic the singing talent of Nina Simone, or the combat abilities of that year's Desert Wars gold medalist... You don't even need a datajack for most of the parlors' needs.

It's only the most rare of clients who'd require that level of joytoy.

This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Jan 30 2008, 11:10 PM
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JonathanC
post Jan 30 2008, 11:09 PM
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Skillwires are needed in order for the puppet to move like the person they're impersonating. There are limits to what a plain chip can do. As it is, they require extra hardware so that the chip can actually control the target's mind (hardware that, to my knowledge, has not been priced in the BBB or Augmentation), but chips just contain information that your brain accesses. If you want that info to actually control your body (and really, what good is a Nadja Daviar puppet that doesn't walk right, or have her facial expressions?) you need skillwires.

A knowsoft about mechanics doesn't really help that much when your car breaks down; you need a skillsoft. It's the same situation here.

Every discussion of Bunraku I've seen in the books (BBB, that crime syndicate book from 2nd edition) seems to suggest that these places are very easy to find. Everybody knows about them, talks about them, and knows where to find them.

While most of us here are aware of human trafficking rings, I certainly couldn't point you in the direction of your friendly neighborhood slaver. They keep their heads down. The only people who know about them are people who are involved, interested in the product, or about one degree of separation from one of the above.

And really, why is it so hard to believe that it'd be difficult to find willing participants? It's creepy and disturbing, but we're talking about a future where people shove chips into their brains to overstimulate their pleasure centers to dangerous levels. A world where people intentionally saw off healthy body parts to get new "better" ones made out of metal or grown in a lab. We already have people who "willingly" (that is, usually drug dependent or forced by economic necessity) work in prostitution...I'd think a variant on the job where you don't even remember what the hell it is you did might appeal to someone desperate enough to work that kind of job.

Recruitment is a lot cheaper than kidnapping people or buying war orphans.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 30 2008, 11:15 PM
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something nobody brought up yet . . the chance of getting out with the stuff in you . .
IF by Chance it happens . . well heck, get some chips and you can basically get any job available, because with some slots you CAN in fact do it . .
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mfb
post Jan 30 2008, 11:19 PM
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hey. JonathanC. example. by my count, this is something like the third time you've been asked.

my reading has always been that bunraku parlors are no more open than any modern escort service or strip club. if you have evidence to the contrary, it'd be nice to see it.
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