Cardul
Jan 28 2008, 09:41 AM
OK, to begin with: I had thought that Bunraku parlours were just a Japanese way of saying "Brothel." However, in the "really pissed off yaks" thread, some comments made them sound more like just "strip clubs." However, when I did a search on Bunraku...all I found were references to a form of Japanese puppetry with 3 puppetteers for each puppet.
So, since I had never heard the term Bunraku, let alone of a Bunraku parlour before 4th Edition...can someone please explain exactly what one is?
Fortune
Jan 28 2008, 10:05 AM
Basically, they are brothels where the 'hosts' and 'hostesses' are implanted with Skillwires and the like, then fed persona chips for all (and I mean all) occasions and perversions. Typically some amount of cosmetic surgery is also involved.
Hence the name 'Meat Puppets'.
I am sure that somebody else can do the tradition as it appears in the Sixth World more justice.
Ancient History
Jan 28 2008, 12:32 PM
Imagine prostitutes made up to look like movie stars. And government officials. Or your ex-wife. Now imagine they think and act and talk like them too. That's a bunraku parlor. It's not a strip club, and the word does come from the Japanese puppeteer. I believe the first real description of something like it was in Neuromancer and the preceding short story Burning Chrome.
Ed_209a
Jan 28 2008, 02:19 PM
There is also a extra flavor of dehumanization in bunraku parlors, because sometimes (often?) the puppet is unwilling or even unknowing. It is one thing to be forced to _do_ it, it is another to be forced to _like_ it, and not even remember what it was you liked.
FriendoftheDork
Jan 28 2008, 03:02 PM
I thought it had something to do with puppets, but the 3 puppeteers makes sense - 1 is the skillwire, 1 the personafix, and 1 cosmetic surgery. All required to make the puppet move well and please the audience
OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun....
Ed_209a
Jan 28 2008, 03:21 PM
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun.... |
I'm with you there.
As if it wasn't dangerous enough being a teenage runaway.
It takes roughly 3k in cyberware (datajack and R1 Skillwires) to set a person up as a bunny whore. If the parlor is organized enough, the ware might even be used (from a worker whose last client was into rough stuff.)
Even high-end cybergeishas probably have less than 30k invested in them.
Worst thing is, I can see kids staying home because all the the stepdad does is beat them.
hobgoblin
Jan 28 2008, 04:45 PM
turning humans into machines, if thats not a core of cyberpunk i dont know what is...
knasser
Jan 28 2008, 06:24 PM
QUOTE (Ed_209a) |
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) | OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun.... |
I'm with you there.
|
Thirded. Bunraku is nasty and some of my players would probably freak if I brought it up in the game.
BishopMcQ
Jan 28 2008, 06:39 PM
It's not just Shadowrun, but the cyberpunk genre. I've played a character who was the Face and was a runaway from one of the bunraku parlors. Damaged goods was probably the kindest way to describe the baggage she had about sex and most interpersonal relationships.
Personally, I understand how a lot of people can separate themselves from what happens to their bodies with the Memory Filter blocking out what actually happened. By not having any recollection of the events, it becomes easier to justify as having happened to someone else or just a piece of meat not actually to one's self.
Method
Jan 28 2008, 06:44 PM
IIRC there are descriptions of bunraku in the yakuza section of the Underworld Sourcebook.
Stahlseele
Jan 28 2008, 07:09 PM
something i'd probably worry more about . . you basically have an army of mindless killing machines, if you feed them the right chips O.o
granted their attributes may be low, but heck, you just slot sniper-rifles or assault-rifles and sick em at whomever . .
imperialus
Jan 28 2008, 07:11 PM
I seriously debated making my current PC (a former yak) have a thing for Bunraku parlors. Decided against it for the same reason as Knasser. It's just too twisted.
cryptoknight
Jan 28 2008, 07:20 PM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 28 2008, 02:09 PM) |
something i'd probably worry more about . . you basically have an army of mindless killing machines, if you feed them the right chips O.o granted their attributes may be low, but heck, you just slot sniper-rifles or assault-rifles and sick em at whomever . . |
I believe that was the plot of one of the original SR modules... Dreamchipper. I've run that module 6 times with 6 different groups. At the end when they decide if they return the chips for the cash or smash em to bits "in the process of retrieving them" I have NEVER found a group that took the cash.
X-Kalibur
Jan 28 2008, 07:24 PM
QUOTE (knasser) |
QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Jan 28 2008, 03:21 PM) | QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) | OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun.... |
I'm with you there.
|
Thirded. Bunraku is nasty and some of my players would probably freak if I brought it up in the game.
|
Disturbing? Perhaps, but it remains one of the few really meaty (if you'll forgive the pun) ties Shadowrun maintains with cyberpunk. I think it can be used in a game quite tastfully at that. You don't have to go into explicit detail with it after all, unless of course the players really want to.
Fortune
Jan 28 2008, 07:27 PM
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun.... |
I dunno. I might put stuff like Halberstram's babies up near the top of the list.
JonathanC
Jan 28 2008, 07:30 PM
QUOTE (Ancient History) |
Imagine prostitutes made up to look like movie stars. And government officials. Or your ex-wife. Now imagine they think and act and talk like them too. That's a bunraku parlor. It's not a strip club, and the word does come from the Japanese puppeteer. I believe the first real description of something like it was in Neuromancer and the preceding short story Burning Chrome. |
George Alec Effinger had a whole culture around this sort of stuff in his Budayeen series (When Gravity Fails, A Fire In The Sun, et. al). The main difference is that people were doing it to themselves, which kind of makes it creepier in a way. Sort of. The main character is kind of coerced into getting wired though, which opens up a world of problems. The narration during the periods when he's under a different personality is...weird.
mfb
Jan 28 2008, 07:30 PM
the concept springs at least partially from Molly Millions, who spent time as a sex worker with a memory cutout, saving up money to pay for the combat implants she wanted. she found out later that during the memory cutouts, they were forcing her to do really rough stuff.
i like the bunraku concept because it allows me to introduce some really dirty, nasty concepts to the game--real stuff, but with a little fantasy twist that makes it easier to accept.
MYST1C
Jan 28 2008, 07:31 PM
QUOTE (Ancient History) |
I believe the first real description of something like it was in Neuromancer and the preceding short story Burning Chrome. |
Molly Millions, the razorgirl from Neuromancer, tells that she earned the money for her combat cyberware working as a "meat puppet"...
Damn, too slow...
hyzmarca
Jan 28 2008, 07:41 PM
I imagine that some bunraku parlors are classier than others.
In my mind a "true" bunraku parlor is very much live a modern day host(ess) club. Patrons sit down, eat over priced food, and drink overpriced drinks while flirting with a replica of a famous person or character. Sometimes, they sing karaoke together. Sex is never mentioned and may the parlor has a policy against sexual activity on the premises. The customer isn't paying for sex, he's paying for the experience of having drinks and singing karaoke with a famous person. Still many would allow a customer to rent a private room, ostensibly for more intimate dining, but usually for a chance to have sex with the bunraku hostess. Most such bunraku parlors would operate openly and semi-transparently, avoiding prostitution charges because there is never a direct quid-pro-quo, and some would even be respectable enough to to serve as a location for a meeting with a Big 10 CEO. In these, it can be expected, but not guaranteed, that the employees are being paid a commission, have their P-fixes removed at the end of the work day, and signed up without duress. It can also be expected that the employees get tested for STDs regularly.
There might be some based around the no-pan kisa concept, where there is no sex, just waitresses with p-fixes and cosmetic surgery serving dinner without underwear. And some would resemble a health club, with popular characters giving relaxing sensual massages which may involve below-the-waist massaging.
The low-rent brothel version staffed entirely by p-fixed sex slaves who live and work in 5x10 rooms furnished with heavily stained mattresses are often referred to as bunraku parlors by laymen but are generally looked down upon by real bunraku workers and owners, who should be eager to point out the difference.
bibliophile20
Jan 28 2008, 07:42 PM
QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 28 2008, 02:27 PM) |
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Jan 29 2008, 02:02 AM) | OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun.... |
I dunno. I might put stuff like Halberstram's babies up near the top of the list.
|
Ditto; in the hierarchy of disturbing things that SR has to offer, Halberstam is at the top of the list, right up there with Deus' experiments in the Arcology.
Actually, I would put Bug spirits, Halberstam and Deus' Network all above the institution of the bunraku; at least there's a chance of escape from a bunraku parlor--not so much if you're stuffed into a cocoon, a CCU or are made into a Node.
hobgoblin
Jan 28 2008, 07:53 PM
for some reason i would park both bug spirits and deus below bunraku, but halberstam above it.
bug spirits, its how the "live". there are many real life bugs that reproduce by planting their eggs into another being, the bugs just take this to a whole different level.
deus, say hello to the amoral machine...
the are more or less just another dragon, just another reminder that humans are no longer the top of the food chain.
but the next two are humans doing to humans, with no other gain then money and/or knowledge.
that just scares me on a whole different level, as it reminds me how easy it is for humans to regard their own with lesser value if they can gain something from it.
hyzmarca
Jan 28 2008, 08:00 PM
Knowledge is a laudable goal unto itself. The techniques pioneered by Halberstam can save countless lives in the future and possibly give humanity a fighting chance in the inevitable war against sentient machines and then again in the inevitable Scourge.
knasser
Jan 28 2008, 08:03 PM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
Knowledge is a laudable goal unto itself. The techniques pioneered by Halberstam can save countless lives in the future and possibly give humanity a fighting chance in the inevitable war against sentient machines and then again in the inevitable Scourge. |
Compassion and respect for each other make the species strong. Why trade that for shaving a year or two off the pace of scientific knowledge?
mfb
Jan 28 2008, 08:05 PM
compassion and respect make the species weak. everybody will live in peace and harmony--until some species that doesn't live in peace and harmony comes along and eats the peaceful species.
granted, a total lack of compassion and respect also weakens the species, because it will be too busy with infighting to unify against external threats. but still, depending on the Care Bare Stare for defense is a really bad idea.
JonathanC
Jan 28 2008, 08:52 PM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
Knowledge is a laudable goal unto itself. The techniques pioneered by Halberstam can save countless lives in the future and possibly give humanity a fighting chance in the inevitable war against sentient machines and then again in the inevitable Scourge. |
"It's not enough to survive; one must be worthy of surviving"
-- Commander Adama, in the episode "Resurrection Ship"
nezumi
Jan 28 2008, 08:54 PM
I'm going to admit ignorance. Who is Halberstam?
And for the record, the bug spirits cooperated very well (within species), and went out of their way to care for their wounded hive-mates. Look where that got THEM.
hobgoblin
Jan 28 2008, 08:55 PM
QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 28 2008, 09:05 PM) |
compassion and respect make the species weak. everybody will live in peace and harmony--until some species that doesn't live in peace and harmony comes along and eats the peaceful species. |
internal compassion and respect is not the same as external compassion and respect.
as in, if its of the same species, thats one thing, but if its not, thats something else...
sadly, thats a very slippery slope as the borders may well be mobile...
Stahlseele
Jan 28 2008, 08:58 PM
Basically the Dr.Mengele of SR who specialises in Matrix/Neuro-Tech
read this:
http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Echoes.htm
mfb
Jan 28 2008, 09:10 PM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 28 2008, 09:05 PM) | compassion and respect make the species weak. everybody will live in peace and harmony--until some species that doesn't live in peace and harmony comes along and eats the peaceful species. |
internal compassion and respect is not the same as external compassion and respect.
as in, if its of the same species, thats one thing, but if its not, thats something else...
sadly, thats a very slippery slope as the borders may well be mobile...
|
eh. any species' largest competitor is generally going to be itself. and in the case of humans, there's really nothing else we can practice aggression on.
Fortune
Jan 28 2008, 09:12 PM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
I imagine that some bunraku parlors are classier than others. |
While I totally agree with this, I think that those 'classier' ones that you go on to describe are in the minority.
As an aside, do we have any evidence that prostitution is illegal in 2070? Hell, it's not even illegal now in parts of the states.
knasser
Jan 28 2008, 10:10 PM
QUOTE (mfb) |
eh. any species' largest competitor is generally going to be itself. and in the case of humans, there's really nothing else we can practice aggression on. |
Any species largest competitor is generally going to be itself? Tell that to the semi-digested remains of inumerable little animals.
As to there being nothing else that humans can practice aggression on then what is the need to practice aggression for? I should clarify before this gets into a debate on the social necessity of competition that whilst I've used your term, the original point is one of experimentation on human life and other atrocities. Are you saying that it's necessary to practice aggression in preparation for when the aliens arrive? Or the machines try to wipe us out? Well unity will serve us better than in-fighting when the aliens come and if we stop building machines that kill, we might not have to worry about the robot uprising.
I find it hard to believe that you're arguing for the necessity of atrocities such as unwilling human experimentation.
QUOTE (MFB) |
compassion and respect make the species weak. |
No they make a species strong. Can you imagine a mankind achieving the things it has achieved without working together? Compassion and respect allow us to live and work together.
knasser
Jan 28 2008, 10:16 PM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
as in, if its of the same species, thats one thing, but if its not, thats something else...
sadly, thats a very slippery slope as the borders may well be mobile... |
A very slippery slope. I've found that one can correlate the "goodness" of a person with the broadness of the definition they give to "my kind." Is it just themself? Is it their family? Community? All mankind? Though of course that's simplistic and there are other axis to measure the inclusiveness along as well such as sexuality and religion. But the principle of what I'm saying is pretty clear, I think.
Going back to bunraku parlours, I am in no way saying that other people shouldn't include these in their games. I just know that with us, a degree of separation between reality and fiction is necessary for us to enjoy the game, else we wouldn't be able to play for worrying about the ganger we beat up. And rape in any form doesn't increase the separation between reality and fiction for myself and certain players, it brings the game into too great a level of reality which we are uncomfortable with.
JonathanC
Jan 28 2008, 10:47 PM
Considering how many tree hugger organizations are willing to go up against corps, I'm kinda surprised the Yakuza haven't been targeted by any radical pro-feminist organizations.
Riley37
Jan 28 2008, 11:13 PM
QUOTE (mfb) |
any species' largest competitor is generally going to be itself. |
Well, its most finely tuned competitor, wanting the exact same resources, but lots of species have had worse problems with other species, eg those that were displaced by the introduction of rabbits to Australia. Humans tend to have a top predator perspective.
Cyberpunk tends to include quite a bit of humans treating each other as non-allies. But having *some* sense of "us", someone to watch your back, is a good thing. Knasser favors taking a broad view of "us". Some Buddhists pray for *all* beings. I favor a narrow sense of "us", and the ability to make allies and cut fair deals with "them" when advantageous. Cf. the thread on Humanis Policlub; also the "start with cooperation, then tit for tat" strategy in iterated prisoner's dilemma.
My PC has been cutting deals with ghouls... and would rather see them fed peacefully, than have them go hunting. *Some* of them are fellow sentients. It's kinda borderline. If spider spirits eat wasp spirits, and don't eat humans, then hey, it can be time to ally with spider spirits.
Back to the more specific topic:
I'd hate to be a meat puppet, and I'd also hate to be shackled to an assembly line machine. One is creepy, and the other involves a risk of limb-mangling industrial accident. Seattle 2070 probably includes a few bunraku parlors, in various degrees as hyzmarca describes, in about the same proportion to total population as RL Seattle has sex workers of various sorts. Seattle 2070 might also have a lot of factories with low safety standards and workers who would *rather* be p-fixed than spend their 12-hour shift in constant fear of accident. If you eat at Stuffer Shack, or buy ammo from Ares, you're probably consuming products made in such a factory.
In a Pink Mohawk type campaign, if a runner becomes an underground hero, aka Bonnie and Clyde, or aka the "Jaynestown" episode of "Firefly", a bunraku parlor might use personafix and cosmetic sculpt to make a "puppet" just like the popular image of Our Hero, except attracted to any and every customer who walks up to the bar. If the PC meets their bunraku double, or better yet if Mr. Johnson sets up a meet at that bar and gets confused about which is which, hilarity could ensue... or rather, hilaristurbing.
hyzmarca
Jan 28 2008, 11:27 PM
QUOTE (knasser) |
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 28 2008, 08:00 PM) | Knowledge is a laudable goal unto itself. The techniques pioneered by Halberstam can save countless lives in the future and possibly give humanity a fighting chance in the inevitable war against sentient machines and then again in the inevitable Scourge. |
Compassion and respect for each other make the species strong. Why trade that for shaving a year or two off the pace of scientific knowledge?
|
Your mistaking the maximum application of compassion to the lack of compassion.
Let us say that we have six people all of whom are compatible with each other for the purposes of organ donation, five are dying slow and painful deaths from organ (two from lungs, two from kidneys, and one from heart) failure and the sixth is healthy.
A rational compassionate individual is driven by compassion to minimize death and suffering. In this case, there are two ways to accomplish this. One can euthanize the healthy guy and distribute his organs to the other five or one can euthanize the heart patient and give his organs to the other five. Assuming that recovery from a heart transplant will be painful and that the individual's life expectancy will be reduced, one might choose to kill the heart patient. If not, then it is a pure toss up which might as well be decided by a coin flip.
Either way, the most compassionate choice is the sacrifice the one to save the many.
JonathanC
Jan 28 2008, 11:38 PM
Murdering healthy people for their organs isn't compassion, it's selfishness. Or, since your example cites the "good of the many", it's mob rule. The cornerstone of compassionate philosophy is that no person has the right to make another person suffer for their own gain.
I'm sorry, but as those kids on the Internet like to say, your example is made of FAIL.
FriendoftheDork
Jan 28 2008, 11:43 PM
QUOTE (Fortune) |
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Jan 29 2008, 02:02 AM) | OK seriously this is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Shadowrun.... |
I dunno. I might put stuff like Halberstram's babies up near the top of the list.
|
I don't know, the bunraku seems alot like what would happen in Rl - it's realistic that's what makes it so bad.
Blood spirits, mad doctor experimenting on people, and the good old Horrors coming to end the world is less believable.
Well dr. mengele did exist, but how many mengele are there compared to human trafficking and prostitution?
And another aspect of the industry that makes it scary is that at first glance it looks neat. If you enter as a customer all you will see is gorgeus (insert prefered gender) that seem educated and savvy, seem to be enjoying themselves alot and are very turned on by you, in addition to being perfect for you preferences.
Now most men without background knowledge of this might well be tempted to try it out. Heck even the old hookers today with layers of makeup to hide beatings can fool men today (as they want to believe the hookers chose the profession).
JonathanC
Jan 28 2008, 11:48 PM
Unethical medical experimentation is more realistic than a crime syndicate spending tens of thousands of dollars per person on slavery. Mengele wasn't alone; there were Japanese doctors doing similar things to POWs in WWII (we tend to forget about the atrocities commited by the Imperial Japanese, because we feel bad for nuking them), the Tuskeegee Experiments, various cases of testing medical/phameceutical things on unwitting people, usually in 3rd world countries but sometimes in America too. Occasionally the stories get picked up and adapted to fiction, like The Constant Gardener, or the odd episode of Law and Order SVU.
Riley37
Jan 28 2008, 11:51 PM
hyzmarca, your example seems to assume an outside spectator with complete power over the participants, and no relevant loyalties. Let's say that the heart patient is a troll whose organs are oversized for the others, kidney patient 1 is your sister, lung patient 1 is an ork from the Underground whose buddies will avenge him, lung patient 2 is an adept who will kill you if you try anything, and you're kidney patient 2. Now what?
hobgoblin
Jan 29 2008, 12:01 AM
QUOTE (JonathanC) |
Unethical medical experimentation is more realistic than a crime syndicate spending tens of thousands of dollars per person on slavery. Mengele wasn't alone; there were Japanese doctors doing similar things to POWs in WWII (we tend to forget about the atrocities commited by the Imperial Japanese, because we feel bad for nuking them), the Tuskeegee Experiments, various cases of testing medical/phameceutical things on unwitting people, usually in 3rd world countries but sometimes in America too. Occasionally the stories get picked up and adapted to fiction, like The Constant Gardener, or the odd episode of Law and Order SVU. |
and thats the freakish thing, these are all fully normal people that would not do such a thing on their "fellow man". but as soon as they get into the state of mind that some group of people are "sub-human", all bets are off as to what they can bring themselves to do...
X-Kalibur
Jan 29 2008, 12:08 AM
Back of the subject of the Bunraku parlor you have to admit things aren't necessarily all bad for those girls. At least not so much compared to a suck-for-a-buck girl on the streets (oh wait, buck fifty now, forgot about inflation). They get to work in an enclosed and secured environment and they have a data filter installed more than likely so they don't even remember who they were with or what they did. Unless they have a Molly Millions exception who got a back data filter, and even that provides some great background story. Prostitution isn't always illegal either, and in places where it is legalized it is also regulated and the girls(and boys, to be fair) are tested for and treated for STDs.
Really, wouldn't you like to be able to go to work and come home hours later without remember a thing about it instead of gruelling for however long your shift is? Really makes me think of Office Space now...
Whipstitch
Jan 29 2008, 12:16 AM
Uh, yeah it just as bad, or at least it can be. Nobody ever said they have to let you go after your shift is over if you're SINless and the use of date rape drugs like laes, leal and pixie dust to wipe out memory is cheaper in the short term than installing datafilters in all your girls. There's a reason that the munecas in Caracas either find a way out of the business ASAP or end up as burnouts and die from biostress. You're signing your body over and frankly, once they'e got their hooks in you through drugs or cyberware, you're no longer in a very good position to protect yourself anymore. A lot of the parlors probably aren't so bad because it's easier to find willing employees by not treating them as if they were completely expendable, but you can still bet your ass that they ride their workers pretty hard before they're through.
hyzmarca
Jan 29 2008, 12:19 AM
QUOTE (JonathanC) |
Murdering healthy people for their organs isn't compassion, it's selfishness. Or, since your example cites the "good of the many", it's mob rule. |
No it isn't. If there was a vote, then it would be mob rule. In this case it is a unilateral decision based on utility. That would be a dictatorship. It is necessary to do some distasteful things to minimize suffering. Besides with all variables taken into account, it is probably best to kill the person who is dying of a heart condition, as I pointed out, unless one can guarantee against rejection and other complications.
QUOTE |
The cornerstone of compassionate philosophy is that no person has the right to make another person suffer for their own gain. |
Which is why humane methods would be used to kill. There is suffering there. The point, after all, is to eliminate suffering. ( Of course, if one's goal is to eliminate suffering then it stands to reason that genocide is the ultimate act of compassion)
QUOTE (Riley37) |
hyzmarca, your example seems to assume an outside spectator with complete power over the participants, and no relevant loyalties. Let's say that the heart patient is a troll whose organs are oversized for the others, kidney patient 1 is your sister, lung patient 1 is an ork from the Underground whose buddies will avenge him, lung patient 2 is an adept who will kill you if you try anything, and you're kidney patient 2. Now what? |
If the heart patient's organs are unsuitable for the others then the best choice depends entirely on whether or not the healthy person's heart will fit the troll. If yes, then euthanizing the healthy person would have the greatest utility. If no, then we are left to trade organs between lung and kidney patients. KP1 gives up a lung to LP1 in exchange for a kidney. The same trade is made between KP2 and LP2. Or some other combination is used. The heart patient still dies, of course, since there is no heart that fits him, it is only a matter of when he dies and how much he suffers in the mean time.
JonathanC
Jan 29 2008, 12:31 AM
Careful...your post is a fire hazard with that many straw men.
Loss of life is suffering. Killing a healthy sentient being solely to save the life of another being is not compassionate. It's also unethical, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.
Wounded Ronin
Jan 29 2008, 12:42 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
compassion and respect make the species weak. everybody will live in peace and harmony--until some species that doesn't live in peace and harmony comes along and eats the peaceful species.
granted, a total lack of compassion and respect also weakens the species, because it will be too busy with infighting to unify against external threats. but still, depending on the Care Bare Stare for defense is a really bad idea. |
Wow. If I had unlimited resources I'd buy the rights to Care Bears, make them into a rifle-toting platoon in Vietnam, and make the cartoon show about them going on patrol and getting repeatedly ambushed over the course of their 1 year tour of duty. It would be completely straight-faced and nobody would comment on the Care Bears being a bunch of bears, but instead would just act as though they were nothing out of the ordinary.
Apathy
Jan 29 2008, 12:51 AM
QUOTE (JonathanC) |
Killing a healthy sentient being solely to save the life of another being is not compassionate. It's also unethical, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. |
But it's a perfectly cyberpunk scenario, which has nothing to do with compassion and doesn't merely tolerate, but celebrates the inequalities among people of different social strata. And it happens all the time today - organ donation among Chinese prisoners is a big business, and there's plenty of urban legends (not true, but part of the collective unconscious) about travelers getting drugged and waking up in a tub of ice.
JonathanC
Jan 29 2008, 12:58 AM
QUOTE (Apathy) |
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 28 2008, 07:31 PM) | Killing a healthy sentient being solely to save the life of another being is not compassionate. It's also unethical, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. |
But it's a perfectly cyberpunk scenario, which has nothing to do with compassion and doesn't merely tolerate, but celebrates the inequalities among people of different social strata. And it happens all the time today - organ donation among Chinese prisoners is a big business, and there's plenty of urban legends (not true, but part of the collective unconscious) about travelers getting drugged and waking up in a tub of ice.
|
...and if he was claiming that it was cyberpunk, I wouldn't be arguing. But he's claiming that it's compassionate. Perhaps you should read back a bit and get brought up to speed as to where the conversation has been.
mfb
Jan 29 2008, 01:21 AM
QUOTE (knasser) |
Any species largest competitor is generally going to be itself? Tell that to the semi-digested remains of inumerable little animals. |
er, yeah, you're correct. lemme amend: at the top end of the food chain, any species' largest competitor is generally going to be itself.
hyzmarca
Jan 29 2008, 02:17 AM
QUOTE (JonathanC) |
Loss of life is suffering. |
Wounded Ronin
Jan 29 2008, 03:34 AM
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 28 2008, 09:17 PM) |
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 28 2008, 07:31 PM) | Loss of life is suffering. |
|
Indeed, as we learned from "The Princess Bride", life is pain, and anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something. Therefore, logically, if we get rid of life we must be getting rid of pain as they are one and the same.
I do have one question for JonathanC, though. Do you sell bulk coffee? I go through that stuff so fast and it would save me a lot of time and money if I could get a good wholesale value.