What's the purpose of Ghostwalker?, The wizzworm doing what? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Particle_Beam]

What role has Ghostwalker actually played in the SR-world? Yeah, sure, he somehow kicked out Aztlan from the special weird-regulated city of Denver (rather unconvincingly, but that's another matter), but what does he do else? He just seems to be there. Dunkelzahn had that media-stick to him, Lofwyr is owner of the biggest and mightiest mega-corp, Ryumyo and Lung have their feud, Masaru wants to help the filipinos in their guerrilla war against the oppressive forces of Imperial Japan, but Ghostwalker? He just sticks himself to Denver, and that's it, according to Dot6w. Heck, what ressources does he even have? Only what Denver can provide, and it's stated that he leaves the mega-corp alone when they won't interfere with him. What can he offer what the mega-corps would even want to make deals with him?

He seems so useless in every way. His only schtick was to be all godzilla-like, but that's it. I mean, being king of Denver, yeah, so what? Why is he made important, when everything he "rules" over is just the odd city of Denver?

Can anybody justify his importance, and why people talk about him at all? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Fuchs]

He's a dragon, so he's cool and makes Denver cooler. Or so I imagine people writing his entries in the sourcebook think.

[FrankTrollman]

You know, when I brought that up in an author discussion, the author of Ghost Stories got super pissed at me. She said things about me which were apparently "not nice" and wouldn't work with me on any projects in the future.

Ghostwalker is supposed to be a big conjurer, and his Godzilla attack did invalidate the Treaty of Denver, which was the pact that the North American states made to not nuke each other with magic or nuclear weapons, so you'd think that Aztlan would be contractually obligated to magically assassinate leaders of the CAS and drop nukes on Richmond. But that didn't happen, so really Ghostwalker just lives in the Denver Bubble - a place where giant NPCs wag their penises around and there are no consequences or reprisals for anything that happens there.

Whatever happens in Denver, stays in Denver. And if your campaign was set in Denver based on the old box set, then you can kiss an entire ass.

-Frank

[Adarael]

Yeah, that'll happen sometimes, Frank. And your assessment is pretty much spot on.

[paws2sky]

To quote Mystery Men:
"He's terribly mysterious."

But in all seriousness, it seems like they might have had some plans for him that just never happened.
Maybe that's assuming too much about one of SR's biggest loose ends.

-paws

[mfb]

the role i think GW ought to serve is that of the old-school feudal dragon who lives in a castle and owns your shit. some might say that Lofwyr fills that role, but i would argue that Lofwyr is more representative of dragonkind adapting that attitude to the Sixth World--Lofwyr doesn't bother to own places; instead, he owns money. GW could serve as a counterpoint, showing that owning places can actually be pretty important and powerful.

the role GW actually serves is, basically, zomgz dragonz lol. i think GW's takeover of Denver could have been made to work a lot better if, for instance, they'd gone a bit more in-depth on the subject of his tactics and strategy. there are many people who would like to see GW fill the role of "welcome to the Sixth World, bitch", but that toxic dragon who got shot down in Germany serves pretty well there.

[kindalas]

I though he was preparing a massive blood magic ritual that will kill everyone in Denver but allow him to lay down some major destruction on one of the more dangerous meta-planes. (The Hive)

Thats what I would do if I was a Dragon, what else would I need a city for?

[Fuchs]

the role i think GW ought to serve is that of the old-school feudal dragon who lives in a castle and owns your shit. some might say that Lofwyr fills that role, but i would argue that Lofwyr is more representative of dragonkind adapting that attitude to the Sixth World--Lofwyr doesn't bother to own places; instead, he owns money. GW could serve as a counterpoint, showing that owning places can actually be pretty important and powerful.

I would say that there is no place for an old school feudal dragon, not in the 6th world.

[FrankTrollman]

I would say that there is no place for an old school feudal dragon, not in the 6th world.

Sure there is. There are lots of areas which are just really dangerous. A powerful magician could carve out a region and allow people to live in it at their whim in exchange for their fealty.

This area would just have to be in the Australian Outback, or the Amazon, or somewhere else that the Awakening has left essentially uninhabitable. Somewhere where the presence or absence of a single Grade 6+ Initiate could make the difference between metahumans being able to live there or not. Somewhere that had something valuable enough that people would go live there if the wilderness were tamed sufficiently to allow them to do so.

---

It just doesn't make any sense anywhere that already has half a million people under the protection of five different industrial and nuclear capable nations.

-Frank

[Kanada Ten]

I'm sure if Aztlan wanted to fight a three front war which would eventually drag the entire Western world into annilation, they could have. However, with a spilt board on Aztechnology and spilt magical hierarchy in Aztlan, they turned to a tac computer, which naturally deduced that they could make more money by forcing reparations and turning the attack into a political victory at home.

Ghostwalker is the leader of the New Revolution, his purpose is to reunite all the North states into one nation, which the easiest way was to begin a war where Aztlan forces the North to form a union in order to beat them, but that didn't work, so no he agitates NAN states and generally pretends to run the Make-a-Wish-Maybe-Get-BBQ'd foundation. In addition to being a mascot to several religions and sport franchises, Ghostwalker enjoys long glides under the moon, and romantic city stomping dinners. On weekends, he likes to kick back at home and catch the game.

[Ryu]

Ghostwalker is right now a placeholder dragon. He got to help take down AzTech a bit, but his role is not well defined so far.

[Cardul]

Ghostwalker is right now a placeholder dragon. He got to help take down AzTech a bit, but his role is not well defined so far.

Honestly, I kind of got the impression that there were plans made for him, but, when FASA closed, the person with those plans took their notes and ran.

Seriously, Ghostwalker made a BIG appearance and then...fizzled. Then again, there are so many loose ends and un-answered questions, which TPTB said they would not be putting any effort into tying up or answering, that...it makes me sad.

It is also entirely possible that the people who bought the rights to ED told Fanpro, then Catalyst, not to do what they were planning, because it would have impinged on the IP rights of ED.

[mfb]

i'm not sure that would be a concern. as i understand it, ED characters and concepts are considered to be a separate IP from SR characters and concepts--the two game worlds are no longer strictly bound together. an ED book could come out tomorrow in which every single dragon died, and it wouldn't affect SR.

[martindv]

Ghostwalker is the leader of the New Revolution, his purpose is to reunite all the North states into one nation, which the easiest way was to begin a war where Aztlan forces the North to form a union in order to beat them, but that didn't work

All he had to do to make it work was to not show up to the peace summit. As I recall, Aztlan was just about to attack Denver, even if it meant rolling tanks through Pueblo to do it, before that happened.

And all the better if he ate Daviar when she came and asked, just to show the UCAS he wasn't messing around.

i'm not sure that would be a concern. as i understand it, ED characters and concepts are considered to be a separate IP from SR characters and concepts--the two game worlds are no longer strictly bound together. an ED book could come out tomorrow in which every single dragon died, and it wouldn't affect SR.

They may not be tied, but the more important thing is that the owners of the licenses for both games are the same people. Their licensees are just different. So Red Brick or Living Room or whoever has been licensed to publish ED now probably doesn't have the authority to tell Catalyst what do do with Rob's pocket lint.

[Kanada Ten]

All he had to do to make it work was to not show up to the peace summit. As I recall, Aztlan was just about to attack Denver, even if it meant rolling tanks through Pueblo to do it, before that happened.

Well, he originally intended the summit as more of a brunch, but gliched his Willpower and filled up on news reporters beforehand.

(Besides, the spirit Aztlan had in Denver was a violation of the Treaty; the thing was clearly military grade force.)

[Herald of Verjig...]

What's Icewing up to? Well, lets hypothesize from what info we have.
1) He claims to have pre-existing ownership of the Denver area.
2) The whole "Spirit of Denver" situation has resulted in dozens of spirits of varrying degrees of power that were originally one very strong spirit
3) Ghostwalker spend the downcycle astrally projected, and spent a lot of time with spirits otherwise
4) Probably related to 3, but even bound spirits can ignore orders from mortal conjurers to go follow Ghosty's whims

So, Ghostwalker sets up a guardian spirit of significant force to guard his lair, then goes away. Much later, that spirit gains recognition and popularity as the guardian spirit of a city (and its nature has changed somewhat by that point). Due to a series of strange events, there are now many spirits of differing power, motive, and apparent type that all originated as one big spirit. Even if the dragon isn't trying to reunite his old guard ghost, the whole prospect of dividing (and possibly reuniting) spirits is a subject worthy of significant research. Toss in that Icewing knows old magic by which souls of mortals and even dragons can be treated similar to the spirits your PCs can conjure.

So, big conspiracy speculation: he wants to undo Ristul.

[swirler]

Ghostwalker is preparing his minions. He is getting ready to take them down to Austin and kick all the azzie ass right out of the "Lonestar State". His minions will be powerful and they will be legion. They will rally behind him, and many more will follow suit once they find out the truth. The truth that he had walked among them all along, even in the Fifth world, a legend among men. He was and always will be Ghostwalker... Texas Ranger!

[Kagetenshi]

Denver was too awesome a setting to be allowed to exist. Ghostwalker was the tool by which it was made just another humdrum city. Since this was obviously necessary, he serves a very important role, though in principle an established NPC could have done it.

~J

[Particle_Beam]

And what does that Ristul-thing have anything to do with Shadowrun? He's still only sitting there in Denver, and effectively doing nothing worthwile. The megacorps and the nations there gain nothing from him, and he doesn't contribute at all to anybody. He can't make any business with the corps, because he has nothing of value to give out, and they won't sell him anything of importance, because he can't give them anything that is usefull to them. He won't and can't sell any dragon secrets to the metahumans, nor any body parts, talons, clippings, scales, snots, poopoo or something similarily gross but at least useful for magical things like that, because that would make him vulnerable and weaken his position. He's just there, a sore plot thread, doing nothing besides looking grim and stuff.

Denver is totally dependent on the benevolence of the megacorps and the nations supporting it, meanwhile, Ghostwalker just sits there and is playing the arrogant king of Denver. He has no political nor any economical power. He just lurks over the strange city of Denver.

What does that Great Dragon contribute to the game setting of Shadowrun for anybody? What use is he for the game masters, the players, or the player characters when they enter Denver?

Right now, he's nothing more than the Denver-Godzilla.

[swirler]

well it could be something the designers left open to players, kind of an open ended metaplot device? He could be making deals we dont know about.

[ixombie]

Whatever happens in Denver, stays in Denver. And if your campaign was set in Denver based on the old box set, then you can kiss an entire ass.

Thanks frank, this made me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

As for Ghostwalker, the first time I heard about him, I was like "Oh cool, did Dunkelzahn die, go on a wild adventure through the metaplanes, and pop back out through the astral rift, reborn?" Cuz maybe that would have been cool.

But here's what I find out: Ghostwalker is, FOR NO REASON, Dunkelzahn's brother. And then he seized control of Denver because he wanted to. The only person who could appropriately express the way this makes me feel is Lewis Black.

Dunky reborn? Cool. Some other dragon? Fine. Dunkelzahn's brother??? WTF.

[Particle_Beam]

Yes, and what could he be good for at all for the players? Other Great Dragons are involved politically or economically in international schemes, either battling for dragon leylines, trying to unite a nation, controlling the ressources of the world, seeking to adapt modern technology to dragon physiology, fighting a guerrilla war...

Meanwhile, there is Ghostwalker, and he flies his rounds over Denver and growls menacingly.

[Kanada Ten]

Yeah, I mean in a world ruled by the media, what power could a figurehead have to totally distract the public and act as a scapecoat for problems? cough*Evita*cough I mean, why do we talk about Urban Brawl ever, it doesn't do anything for the megacorps, or the NAN, they've got nothing, except PPC and they lost it all the Horizon, seriously, why did you make a thread about something you don't care about? Why did we bother speculating when we knew you'd just use it as a platform to whine?

[Seven-7]

Lolerskates and roflcopters, people are discussing something,



Surprise!

It's a discussion forum!

[FlakJacket]

Heck, what ressources does he even have? Only what Denver can provide, and it's stated that he leaves the mega-corp alone when they won't interfere with him. What can he offer what the mega-corps would even want to make deals with him?

He seems so useless in every way. His only schtick was to be all godzilla-like, but that's it. I mean, being king of Denver, yeah, so what? Why is he made important, when everything he "rules" over is just the odd city of Denver?

Why the assumption that the only resources he has are Denver? He had to of had his physical body stashed somewhere which suggests the chance of a possible hoard, and remember, IIRC Lofwyr used a lot of the precious metals and gemstones in his hoard to help finance his initial purchases of what would turn into Saedar-Krupp so we're talking about possibly a fairly large amount of cash. And just because it's not explicitly stated in any of the books doesn't mean he wont have a hidden claw in the corporate world. Maybe not to the extent of Lofwyr but more along the lines of Rhonabwy owning say four or five of percent of different corps here and there.

[Kanada Ten]

It's a discussion forum!

Isn't discussion give and take, not just reiterate?

I don't have a problem with people saying "I don't like this; what can we do with it?" And then, maybe adding their ideas about fixes and changes. But just to repeat yourself constantly, without even discussing the actual merits of something? I must be missing the benefits of this type of "discussion", neh?

[Ophis]

I guess Ghostwalker was part of Shadowrun 3rds higher level plot. He mostly seems to be an opponent for the other Great Dragons and a catalyst in certain conflicts. The thing he gave to get Denver was giving the nations a chance to dump Aztechnology (when they had other crap on) without starting a war.

Having run a long campaign in Denver he hardly ruined it, he just made it more challenging to work there as the security forces became much more co-ordinated.

As to what he's up to. Well he's a powerful being with a long list of enemies. If only there was someone in each group who's job was to come up with stories, oh wait a mo. List of enemies, no listed canon agenda. Take it and run with it. Could the games writers do more? Yes, but its nice to have something big to use as we will.

[Seven-7]

7-8 posts are not a discussion? Wow, you must be on an higher discussing plane than me.

Then again, you posted in a thread simply to say that you think it isn't a discussion.

[Lyonheart]

Thats what I would do if I was a Dragon, what else would I need a city for?

If I where a Great Dragon I'd take over a city to force it's populous to worship me as a God, and I'd likely due it on a lark because wedsdays are kinda slow.

[Particle_Beam]

@Kanada Ten: Well, if you feel this thread isn't for you, feel free to ignore it. I am wondering what purpose Ghostwalker serves for anybody who plays Shadowrun. If others have knowledge towards that, I am glad to read about it.

[Kagetenshi]

What purpose does Aden serve? Feuerschwinge? Rhonabwy? The Sea Dragon?

Saying he has no purpose is the wrong approach. His purpose is to be an element that you can use in your games. No, the problem with him is not that he lacks a purpose, the problem is that he lacks a clear purpose and destroyed the Denver setting.

~J

[Kanada Ten]

I am wondering what purpose Ghostwalker serves for anybody who plays Shadowrun. If others have knowledge towards that, I am glad to read about it.

I doubt it.

Ghostwalker is the only approachable dragon, he's quick and easy to get characters working for, and more so, he works at the street level, under the corp radar and in the NAN, where low powered characters and campaigns work best, and with Denver as a major smuggling hub between those nations, it puts characters in a great position to be agents of a dragon who needs agents, because he has none, has low resources, and is stuck in the middle of nowhere.

He's also the easiest dragon to take out, because of his accessibility, and then once dead, replaced by a corp figurehead.

All the dragons in Dot6W were meant to suit a campaign style, and Ghostwalker makes sense as the low power Great, while still having the shades of political intrigue and let characters interact with areas of the setting they wouldn't normally.

[Whipstitch]

I think this would go a lot better without the utterly and completely unnecessary sniping.

[FlakJacket]

No, the problem with him is not that he lacks a purpose, the problem is that he lacks a clear purpose and destroyed the Denver setting.

Destroyed? Changed the Denver setting maybe but isn't that a little melodramatic? Granted I'm going from memory since I haven't played in a game set in Denver in years but whilst some major things were changed wasn't the basic setting kept generally the same, or have I really missed something?

[Particle_Beam]

What purpose does Aden serve?

He, she or whatever gender that beast has seems to be opposed to Lofwyr and anti-awakened groups, and tries to be subtle in his approach, after the burning down of Teheran.

Feuerschwinge?

Who's that?

Rhonabwy? The Sea Dragon?

Appearently, they play political games in former Irland, now known as Tir na Nog, and aid elven secessionists.

Saying he has no purpose is the wrong approach. His purpose is to be an element that you can use in your games. No, the problem with him is not that he lacks a purpose, the problem is that he lacks a clear purpose and destroyed the Denver setting.

That too, I guess.

I doubt it.

Doubt what?

Ghostwalker is the only approachable dragon, he's quick and easy to get characters working for, and more so, he works at the street level, under the corp radar and in the NAN, where low powered characters and campaigns work best, and with Denver as a major smuggling hub between those nations, it puts characters in a great position to be agents of a dragon who needs agents, because he has none, has low resources, and is stuck in the middle of nowhere.

He stomped Denver all by himself Godzilla-style. Everybody is watching him now. It's impossible to work street level and under the corp radar for him, as he is the infamous big badass of Denver. He's not subtle. Every move of him and his agents are tracked by the agents of the remaining corps and national agencies. And yes, he has low ressources, so it's even more impossible for him to do anything worthwile. He's too high-risk, and can't pay enough. And he still has a bad attitude.

He's also the easiest dragon to take out, because of his accessibility, and then once dead, replaced by a corp figurehead.

Well, that would be nice if the game developers would take that route, but that's for another topic.

All the dragons in Dot6W were meant to suit a campaign style, and Ghostwalker makes sense as the low power Great, while still having the shades of political intrigue and let characters interact with areas of the setting they wouldn't normally.

That's the problem. He has too few ressources and influence, is permanently under watch by all sides, can't do anything without upsetting the other established forces, and now sits upon Denver.

[FlakJacket]

And yes, he has low resources, so it's even more impossible for him to do anything worthwhile. He's too high-risk, and can't pay enough.

Since you've mentioned this again I'll reiterate the question, but what makes you think he has 'low resources', and low compared to who?

[Kanada Ten]

I think this would go a lot better without the utterly and completely unnecessary sniping.

I doubt it.

[Eyeless Blond]

I always had this crazy idea that Ghostwalker was running the Shedim. Then again, I have no idea where that idea came from, so it's probably wrong.

[Fortune]

I always had this crazy idea that Ghostwalker was running the Shedim. Then again, I have no idea where that idea came from, so it's probably wrong.

Probably from the fact that they followed him back through the rift.

Another thing to remember about Pale'n'Scaly, apart from his unrivaled ability with Spirits, is his use as a sage. His listed price is a gem (IIRC) of certain worth (10000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ?).

[mfb]

Dunky reborn? Cool. Some other dragon? Fine. Dunkelzahn's brother??? WTF.

well, Ghostwalker isn't Dunk's brother just because--he's Dunk's brother because he was Dunk's brother in the Earthdawn setting. why use GW instead of some unknown great? well, ED has all this cool background; it'd be a shame not to use it. why use GW instead of some other ED great whose SR whereabouts are unknown? eh, no real reason--but no real reason not to, either.

i really think that the most awesome theory i've seen posted so far is that GW is running the New Revolution. especially when you look at the possible threads tying Dunk to the NR (don't ask me what they are, it's been literally years since i looked into it).

[swirler]

noones even bothered to groan at my bad joke or my lame photoshop
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[hyzmarca]

Ghostwalker's purpose is to have sex with your mom. Anal sex.

But, obviously, Dunkie and GW are running an absurdly elaborate Xanatos Roulette that will take a couple thousand years to play itself out to fruition.

[Serial_Peacemake...]

Feuerschwinge is a German dragon that was taken out by a small military division. Though it is uncertain if he was already hurt and they simply put the killing blow in, or if he was going toxic since he seems to have been in the SOX area. It is also unsure if he is truly dead, since there are since there are still sightings. Also there are mutant/toxic clans that worship him as a diety of destruction.

[Cadmus]

mmm From what I've read I always saw Icewind as pretty much, running denver becouse he wanted too, as well pretty much does other things. becouse he wants to. he's one of the oldest greatdragons being dukies brother I belvie he. I forget the term? loremaster? or something liek that. which was formly his brothers title among their kind. so int he realm of dragons, with his magical power, his physcal power as a single being, and his title. Simply existing makes him important. at least to dragons. kinda like those old guys in some of the old mafia movies. you know you don't know who they are. or what they do, they just seem to sit their. But when they feel like talking they only say a few things fairly low and every one in the room listens very very carfuly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

but thats just me.

[hobgoblin]

I think this would go a lot better without the utterly and completely unnecessary sniping.

this is shadowrun, where trolls sniping with panthers and bows backed up by giant slivergun shaped ally spirits are king. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[martindv]

Whatever happens in Denver, stays in Denver. And if your campaign was set in Denver based on the old box set, then you can kiss an entire ass.

There's an entire line of posts and comments like this, and it's just easier to reply once and say that you shouldn't be saying that. Because if it was remotely true, he wouldn't have been covered in Dragons of the Sixth World and Denver wouldn't have been in SoNA. And in fact neither of those books made such outrageous BS claims like "Everything you KNEW has CHANGED!" Because as FlakJacket has said twice now, it didn't.

And I would suspect that the second set of Missions wouldn't be set there if it was impossible to run in. Denver was not "stomped" on Godzilla-like. It was attacked on a limited and rather strategic basis. And I say this knowing that if they wanted they could have had him destroy it as Aden destroyed Tehran. Especially since I recall Icewing being second most powerful only to his brother. Maybe we should wander over to that SR Missions forum and ask how unplayable Denver has been for the people actually playing games set in Denver. Nah... That might actually be useful and rational and knock down some of the rather amazing and unexplained hatred people have for Ghostwalker. That's discussion, btw. A lot of this is just whining and griping.

[hobgoblin]

friendly suggestion, ignore the troll. he seems to have a issue with SR4 that i cant quite nail down, but i suspect it had something with feeling ignored while working for them...

[Fuchs]

I am so sick of the "anything important has to have a dragon behind it, since dragons are cool" trope.

Whining? Irrational? I want to play in a world ruled by megacorps, not relics from D&D. Give me Dragons who are powerful because they are of superhuman intelligence, and not because in old times they could rend a knight. Newsflash, Devs - we're not in D&D or ED anymore, we have weapons that will kill a dragon easily, so stop treating the game as D&D with computers.

Lowfyr and Dunkelzahn are Dragons I like because they play(ed) by the new rules, using money and PR, not claw and spell, to get their goals.

But as long as the devs think that Dragons should be not only superhuman intellects, and able to personally kill a runner team without much trouble in combat, but also able to destroy entire cities by themselves with brute force, that's a pipe dream.

[martindv]

Whatever happens in Denver, stays in Denver. And if your campaign was set in Denver based on the old box set, then you can kiss an entire ass.

There's an entire line of posts and comments like this, and it's just easier to reply once and say that you shouldn't be saying that. Because if it was remotely true, he wouldn't have been covered in Dragons of the Sixth World and Denver wouldn't have been in SoNA. And in fact neither of those books made such outrageous BS claims like "Everything you KNEW has CHANGED!" Because as FlakJacket has said twice now, it didn't.

And I would suspect that the second set of Missions wouldn't be set there if it was impossible to run in. Denver was not "stomped" on Godzilla-like. It was attacked on a limited and rather strategic basis. And I say this knowing that if they wanted they could have had him destroy it as Aden destroyed Tehran. Especially since I recall Icewing being second most powerful only to his brother. Maybe we should wander over to that SR Missions forum and ask how unplayable Denver has been for the people actually playing games set in Denver. Nah... That might actually be useful and rational and knock down some of the rather amazing and unexplained hatred people have for Ghostwalker. That's discussion, btw. A lot of this is just whining and griping.

[hobgoblin]

ok, i have seen multiple posts, but this is silly...

[FrankTrollman]

friendly suggestion, ignore the troll. he seems to have a issue with SR4 that i cant quite nail down, but i suspect it had something with feeling ignored while working for them...

:Raises Hand:

Ghostwalker's Godzilla rampage is an SR3 event. That entire fiasco was set in motion not only before I worked there but before SR4 was even being written.

I am a raging cock and totally opinionated. But honestly saying that my lingering hate for the Ghost Stories chapter and the resultant lack of setting verisimilitude has anything to do with any issues I have with SR4 is entirely unsupportable. It's factually incorrect and wouldn't even be possible without a time machine.

-Frank

[Synner]

Feuerschwinge is a German dragon that was taken out by a small military division. Though it is uncertain if he was already hurt and they simply put the killing blow in, or if he was going toxic since he seems to have been in the SOX area. It is also unsure if he is truly dead, since there are since there are still sightings. Also there are mutant/toxic clans that worship him as a diety of destruction.

Feuerschwinge was/is a she. Also, you forgot the boyfriend. And the eggs/nest. And her hoard.

[martindv]

I'm going to murder someone at my ISP.

It is whining if someone makes some heated complaint without actually providing you know, facts or anything other than bitchiness. It's irrational when said complaints have no basis in reason. Especially when the complaints are predicated on reasons that the complainer is making up in their head.

And for the love of Christ it was not a Gozilla rampage. Unless Godzilla got a lot more focused and allied. I don't ever seem to recall Godzilla manipulating politics.

[Bull]

Wow. Some serious vitriol here.

To address the original poster a bit, I'll give you some quick background on how Ghostwalker came about.

I was lucky enough to be invited up to visit FASA a bunch of years back to participate on a little summit with a handful of freelancers to brainstorm ideas for Year of the Comet, and the stuff taht would follow that up. One thing that we realizzed very early in the process was that 2061, the Year of the Comet, would be the 50th anniversary of the Awakening.

To that end, we decided that it would be fun to use that oppurtunity to do some big stuff in the world of Shadowrun, and that it would be fun to mirror the original awakening to some extent.

The three main things that the original Awakening brought with it were Magic, Metahumans and Paracritters, and Dragons. So we had a temporary rise in the mana levels (Magic), some new Paranormal Animals and SURGE (Metas and Paras), and Ghostwalker fulfilled our role in the Dragion department.

Since we wanted to have a "new" dragon, we decided to look back at Earthdawn and find a dragon that hadn't been used in SR yet. Icewing, being Dunklezahn's brother, fit the bill. There was a lot of discussion about this, and in the end we were able to tie it into a whole pile of other stuff, so we ran with it.

Icewing has done a lot in Shadowrun, and almost all of it has involved shaking up the status quo. Which, IMO, is nota and thing in the least.

For one, he shook up Denver, which I personally always thought was something of a mediocre setting, at best. As I recall when FASA closed down, they found a full pallet or three of Denver Boxed sets in their warehouse, and I think there was a reason for that. Of course, the only place-book I've ever thought was worthwhile was Bug City, and that was less a Location book than it was a Campaignh and Story Setting.

And even if you were a big fan of Denver and ran your entire campaign out of there, he really didn't effect things all THAT much. The only real change is that Denver got a new Mayor, and one of the factions there was removed.

Ghostwalker was also the actalyst that brought about the Survival of the Fittest adventure set, which changed the dynamic among the Great Dragons.

Finally, while a couple folks dismissed it, I think it's really interesting to have a dragon that didn't try and aclimate himself in one way or another to the modern world, a "Fuedal Dragon", if you will.

<shrug> Ghostwalker is like a lot of things in the Shadowrun Universe. He's there, he's defined, but usually it's up to the GM and players to utilize him as they see fit. Using the same logic that applies to Ghostwalker, really, what purpose do 95% of the people, places, and things in SR really serve? It's a part of the setting, that's all.

Bull

[hobgoblin]

:Raises Hand:

Ghostwalker's Godzilla rampage is an SR3 event. That entire fiasco was set in motion not only before I worked there but before SR4 was even being written.

I am a raging cock and totally opinionated. But honestly saying that my lingering hate for the Ghost Stories chapter and the resultant lack of setting verisimilitude has anything to do with any issues I have with SR4 is entirely unsupportable. It's factually incorrect and wouldn't even be possible without a time machine.

-Frank

well oops on me...

[Fuchs]

Feuerschwinge was/is a she. Also, you forgot the boyfriend. And the eggs/nest. And her hoard.

I wish. Doesn't anyone consider that if something is done overly much it is usually not cool, entertaining or exciting anymore?

Too many great dragons around. Too many plots where they are involved. It is starting to remind me of the clichee view of the Forgotten Realms where every barkeeper is an archmage or polymorphed dragon.

Please cut their number down and give us more megacorp and organised crime intrigue, and less scales.

[FrankTrollman]

And for the love of Christ it was not a Gozilla rampage. Unless Godzilla got a lot more focused and allied.

Have you read Ghost Stories lately? I honestly am curious, because all that drek about Ghostwalker having allies happened after his Rampage. The section is actually called "Rampage in Denver". It's on page 59 of Year of the Comet. It's a news report of Ghost Walker personally and with no assistance boxing with the contents of an Aztechnology Teocali. Unfortunately, it's in conversational script format so the whole thing is really long and can't be copied in its entirety under fair use. But you can go read it yourself and stop making bullshit claims if you'd like. Or I can give you some highlights:

Frag, that was intense. This dragon began attacking the Aztec teocalli in the Aztlan sector several minutes ago. Ahortly after, a fleet of Aztechnology assault TADS drones were launched for a counterattack-what's happening now?
[Zoom in on three approaching aircraft; two Aztechnology Aguilar helicopters and one Halcon ground-attack aircraft.]

The spirit army doesn't show up until later. The CAS/UCAS alliance you keep talking about doesn't happen at all. The first thing that happens is Ghostwalker personally cock-slaps the entire town.

He then appeared over Denver in the Aztlan Sector, where he immediately engaged in an attack, completely destroying the Aztec teocalli and damaging the Aztechnology bilding. Next he headed into the CAS sector, where he engaged with the CAS border security, but broke off and disappeared.
...
After a three-day hiatus, Ghostwalker resurfaced over the UCAS sector. The destruction began anew as he singled out a high-rise residence and firebombed it.

Got that? He attacks all the major military powers in sequence over a period of several days and somehow manages to win despite having no allies and only his Unstoppable NPC Fiat powers to fall back on.

So having you whine about how we are whining when we talk about his Godzilla Rampage does your credibility no favors. It was a Godzilla Rampage. It was extremely ham handed, and it wasn't subtle or anything. It's an open question as to why he wasn't killed by mass drivers from all three factions.

-Frank

[Fuchs]

Ghostwalker was also the actalyst that brought about the Survival of the Fittest adventure set, which changed the dynamic among the Great Dragons.

Is that the adventure where so many complain about not having any choice as a player, and being forced around and railroaded into Dragon Service? Or the one that people tout whenever someone wants ungodly amounts of nuyen? I'd say that's a black mark against him, not for him.

Finally, while a couple folks dismissed it, I think it's really interesting to have a dragon that didn't try and aclimate himself in one way or another to the modern world, a "Fuedal Dragon", if you will.

It would be interesting, if he would get smacked down as such relics would be. But of course, he got plot protection.

<shrug> Ghostwalker is like a lot of things in the Shadowrun Universe. He's there, he's defined, but usually it's up to the GM and players to utilize him as they see fit. Using the same logic that applies to Ghostwalker, really, what purpose do 95% of the people, places, and things in SR really serve? It's a part of the setting, that's all.

And part of the setting I cut out in my campaign. In my campaign, feudal dragons end up dead in short order if they don't adjust.

[hobgoblin]

while denver was never a focus of mine (hell, i pay only slight attention to the meta-story overall) was there not something about denver being a demilitarized place?

[Fuchs]

Denver was demilitarised, which meant, all the powers simply reclassified their military units as security forces. It was Cold War Berlin on steroids, basically.

Now it's something out of Dark Sun, with computers added. But heck, if people who fed us all the "freedom" and "equality" drives in SR, with native people regaining their lands, and metahumans fighting against oppression see nothing wrong with the entire continent accepting some dragon as feudal overlord of a town, not much one can do but ignore it.

[Fortune]

Please cut their number down ...

I'll put my plea in for the opposite. I play Shadowrun partly because it has fantasy mixed with its cyberpunk. I'd like to keep it that way.

[Fuchs]

The Fantasy elements should at the very least adjust to cyberpunk, not the other way around.

[hobgoblin]

clash of cultures (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

plus ca change btw...

[Fortune]

The Fantasy elements should at the very least adjust to cyberpunk, not the other way around.

Why?

In Shadowrun there are fantasy elements that do adjust to the cyberpunk, and some that do the opposite. There are cyberpunk elements that bend toward the fantastic, and those that are pure Gibson. This makes it a much richer setting than the one dimentional world you are advocating.

[Fuchs]

If all you want is D&D with computers, i.e. where dragons can rampage around nilly-willy and all the modern tech and weapons are just window-dressing, and not in any way of consequence, then that's one dimensional.

I want a world where old fantasy tropes are changed by tech. Not where tech replaces the magic items of yore, but the setting doesn't change. Most fantasy worlds only work because there's no technological progress. SR is a world of progress, a world where advances in science and magic will challenge established "truths" each day. A world where anything is checked for possible reverse engineering, development, and industrial use.

A feudal dragon, IMHO, should be killed to keep the world believable - or at the very least, driven away to less civilised places unless it adapts to the sixth world.

[Cadmus]

Well as far as the cyber punk vs fantasy thing goes, ya know. I like the Idea of mages with grenade launchers. Sure you could kill that spirit with the spell...but the LMG with ADPS ammo just has more style to it, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As to ghost walker I feel he has his own style. as for the Military *cough* Secrity forces in solari...er Denver goes, Why he didn't get blown out of the sky? well their heavyer stuff has to stay out of the city for one acording to what i've read, as well. cas and ucas might not of liked the damage he did but they sure as hell wouldn't interfear once they saw him realy laying into the azzies after all. Also remember, Using logic to explain things in the history of shadow run. is the same as in battletech. which means its akin to Psychoanalyzing bugs bunny. Just don't and save the asprin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortune]

If all you want is D&D with computers, i.e. where dragons can rampage around nilly-willy and all the modern tech and weapons are just window-dressing, and not in any way of consequence, then that's one dimensional.

You're right. Luckily, that isn't what I want, nor what I advocated. It's a good thing that most of the Shadowrun players I have met have more imagination than to see things in only that light. YMMV, of course.

[FrankTrollman]

I think it is important to note that it is seriously 7 minutes from the Austin military strip to the Denver DMZ by Movemented Banshee. If you escalate things to the point where you are hovering over Denver, blowing shit up for over ten minutes, then it's over. It's a military attack, it gets a military response. And the border army that Aztechnology has been confirmed to have is enough to slap down Ghostwalker from the skies.

Sure, Ghostwalker could do all kinds of running around in shadows, hiding behind concealment, and sabotaging things from extreme range with line of sight magic. But that's not what he did. He stood on top of the city of Denver and tore crap up with his claws. He spent long enough with 5 stars for the tanks to start showing up and he seriously could not have survived that.

-Frank

[Fuchs]

You're right. Luckily, that isn't what I want, nor what I advocated. It's a good thing that most of the Shadowrun players I have met have more imagination than to see things in only that light. YMMV, of course.

Imagination is a wonderful thing. It allows me to imagine other reasons for many things. It's just hard to see something else than a Dragon Rage out of D&D when reading about Denver since that's exactly what it was - a big bad scaly lizard flying in and teering stuff up.

Nothing about shadowy moves it made beforehand, sabotaged and duped military, black ops and shadowruns happening, etc. Just Godzilla coming to town.

Also, the RSEs, pardon the "changes to the staus quo" are getting tiresome. Is this the forgotten realms, where every second novel has to have a realm shattering event? Again, with the megacorps, and the information society, and so many links ebtween every important power, I'd prefer less earth shattering stuff, and more status quo - the shadowrunners, unless they are playing "DragonRunner" and "Megacorp Ruler", still have their hands full with runs for all sorts of powerlevel.

[hyzmarca]

There are billions of people in the world. In SR, a tiny handful of these people are ancient beings who could chain-cast GGD-level spells if they wanted to. We're talking dead-raising, continent-leveling stuff. The only thing that stops them from unleashing this power on each other during their petty squabbles, escalating what is essentially family bickering to an Extinction Level Event, is the fact that if they did so then a hoard of Clive Barker's wet dreams would eat all of our souls, their's included.

One of these extremely rare beings, possessing the element of surprise to accompany vastly superior (magical) firepower, can smash the fragmented and uncoordinated defenses of a sexpartite city. This is not a surprise.

Sure, Conquering Cold War Berlin would be damned near impossible for the East or the West. Both sides are expecting the other to attack at any moment. But what if the members of the Non-Aligned Movement suddenly started droping bombs and paratroopers onto the city? It would be a cluster-fuck for both because the men on the ground with have no fucking clue who not to shoot at and one misstep would escalate the conflict into Total Global Nuclear Annihilation faster than a horny rabbit can fuck. The result is relative paralysis, particularly since the worst consequences of not doing the right thing is that the city is lost to this new enemy while the best possible consequence of doing the wrong thing is that every living on the planet dies, with the exception of certain radio-immunologically robust insects who will soon starve to death.

The one thing you don't want when a dragon is destroying a city like Denver or Berlin when you are a major power is for the other major power(s) to think that it's your dragon. This is the one thing worse than it actually being the another power's dragon. If you start lobbing naval-scale weaponry (or WMDs) at this dragon then there is a non-zero chance that your esteemed comrades on the other side(s) of the curtain(s) will mistakingly think that you are lobbing naval-scale weaponry at them. We all know why this is bad, right? There is a reason why we didn't fight over Berlin. It wasn't because we didn't want the whole city - both sides did - and it certainly isn't because we didn't think that we could win - both sides did - it was because we knew that in the extremely unlikely event that a hot war escalated into a nuclear war, victory would by pointless and we also knew that the only way to prevent Global TNA in the event of an escalation was for one side to nuke the other so fast and so completely that it is unable to retaliate and they knew it too and both sides knew that the other side knew and and knew that the other side knew that they knew it, therefore the only possibly successful strategy was an unchangeable policy of nuclear first strike in the event of a hot war both to prevent the other side from escalating it into a nuclear war. This strategy would, of course, be implemented by both sides, ensuring that any escalation instantly becomes Global TNA thus the only winning strategy is to not fight at all.
And, thus, when attacked by an (apparently) outside party the safest strategy is to retreat, gather intel, assess without engaging, and make damned sure that everyone else knows that the attackers aren't yours.


And, yeah, Ghostwalker is a baddass. And he knows how to use Shock and Awe. He is an army unto himself, as any character of his stature should be. Would it be more acceptable if he was a giant cyborg crafted from the remains of dead cyborgs that constantly grafts new meat and metal to itself, essentially becoming bigger and more durable for every cybernetic corpse it adds to its structure?


I'm sort of reminded of The Destroy #101: Bidding War, in which South Korean troops storm past the American forces on the DMZ and invade North Korea. Forces on both sides of the DMZ were so dumbfounded that the South Korean invaders rolled right on through with no resistance.

[Maelwys]

Icewing has done a lot in Shadowrun, and almost all of it has involved shaking up the status quo. Which, IMO, is nota and thing in the least.

For one, he shook up Denver, which I personally always thought was something of a mediocre setting, at best. As I recall when FASA closed down, they found a full pallet or three of Denver Boxed sets in their warehouse, and I think there was a reason for that. Of course, the only place-book I've ever thought was worthwhile was Bug City, and that was less a Location book than it was a Campaignh and Story Setting.

And even if you were a big fan of Denver and ran your entire campaign out of there, he really didn't effect things all THAT much. The only real change is that Denver got a new Mayor, and one of the factions there was removed.

Charcoalgrin would've been a better Dragon, fwiw.

How can you say that "he shook up Denver" then turn around and say that he didn't really effect things that much, getting only a new Mayor and the Azzies out? You say that it was a mediocre setting, and all that really changed was that now it has a Dragon. Isn't that simply justifying the "Its a Dragon so its cool!" complaint?

"It was boring...now its exactly the same, but it has a Dragon so its cool!"

Actually, thinking about it, Charcoalgrin would've been a much better Dragon to bring in for a variety of reasons.

[Fuchs]

Yeah, that's what I hate: A modern world completely run by relics from the fatansy world. Not in my campaign. In my campaign, megacorps run the world, and dragons either play by their rules, or get stomped.

If I wanted to play a world ruled by dragons and immortal mages, I'd play D&D FR out of the box. Shadowrun should not be Forgotten Realms, with a reality filter of "turn sword to gun, tower to skyscraper, crystal ball to trid" mod running.

[hobgoblin]

Also remember, Using logic to explain things in the history of shadow run. is the same as in battletech. which means its akin to Psychoanalyzing bugs bunny. Just don't and save the asprin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

[Fortune]

Yeah, that's what I hate: A modern world completely run by relics from the fatansy world. Not in my campaign. In my campaign, megacorps run the world, and dragons either play by their rules, or get stomped.

I guess my Sixth World is big enough to encompass many elements. Megacorporations may be the top dogs in many areas, but there is still room for places to be controlled or heavily influenced by governments (nation-oriented or city-state variety), or a group of elven fanatics, or a Great Dragon or two, or even an anarchistic state or three.

[It trolls!]

With Feuerschwinge being brought up, I alway compared her to Ghostwalker as an example of how wacky and unsubstantial the original German setting was. GW glides in through the rift, checks in at the reception and then goes on to take on a whole army. Feuerschwinge, also being a GD was brought down by some flak from our "We're a placeholder until a real army arrives" army, the Bundeswehr...
I haven't had a look at the Anti-Dragon Task Force thread but now I'm trying to put this in perspective again. How difficult should it be to kill a GD? How strong may such NPCs become, before their powerlevel leads them to ignore most of the world completely because noone could stop them from anything if they tried?

[Maelwys]

Is Feuerschwinge a Great Dragon, or simply an adult Dragon?

There's a difference between the two, and the difference seems to be quite big in regards to strength. Or she could simply be a younger Great Dragon who was SOL that day.

[Fuchs]

There are billions of people in the world. In SR, a tiny handful of these people are ancient beings who could chain-cast GGD-level spells if they wanted to. We're talking dead-raising, continent-leveling stuff. The only thing that stops them from unleashing this power on each other during their petty squabbles, escalating what is essentially family bickering to an Extinction Level Event, is the fact that if they did so then a hoard of Clive Barker's wet dreams would eat all of our souls, their's included.

Yeah, yeah, Dragons and Immoral Elves are gods, and the world is theirs, and only ome plot device make it actually appear as if the megacorps, governments and other powers had any influence. As I said, If I wanted to play Earthdawn or FR, I'd play ED or FR.

One of these extremely rare beings, possessing the element of surprise to accompany vastly superior (magical) firepower, can smash the fragmented and uncoordinated defenses of a sexpartite city. This is not a surprise.

Yeah, yeah, magic - the answer to all loopholes, all "it's cool even if it makes no sense sicne it's elven/dragon" ideas. Again, the idea that "extremely rare beings" can walk all over creation is straight from epic level D&D.

And, thus, when attacked by an (apparently) outside party the safest strategy is to retreat, gather intel, assess without engaging, and make damned sure that everyone else knows that the attackers aren't yours.

And then stomp the bug once you know it's not theirs. Still waiting on that.

And, yeah, Ghostwalker is a baddass. And he knows how to use Shock and Awe. He is an army unto himself, as any character of his stature should be. Would it be more acceptable if he was a giant cyborg crafted from the remains of dead cyborgs that constantly grafts new meat and metal to itself, essentially becoming bigger and more durable for every cybernetic corpse it adds to its structure?

A single being is said to be an army unto himself, no matter the "explanation", is stupid, improbable, and runs counter to anything related to modern thinking and experience. Again, we are talking Epic fantasy, where modern weapons and tactics are not existent.

Here's to the devs: Please make sure that Shdowrun does not become (in parts it already is) A mod for ED or D&D. It's not "Dragons & Elves". Again, it's not "Dragons & Elves".

[Fuchs]

I guess my Sixth World is big enough to encompass many elements. Megacorporations may be the top dogs in many areas, but there is still room for places to be controlled or heavily influenced by governments (nation-oriented or city-state variety), or a group of elven fanatics, or a Great Dragon or two, or even an anarchistic state or three.

Yes, big enough for that - some places. Usually wild places, and controlled by and through deals with the greater powers.

Not a whole bloody world run by dragons and elves, to the point of being able to push entire nations and megacorporations around by themselves.

[It trolls!]

Is Feuerschwinge a Great Dragon, or simply an adult Dragon?

There's a difference between the two, and the difference seems to be quite big in regards to strength. Or she could simply be a younger Great Dragon who was SOL that day.

Great Western and girlfriend of Kaltenstein, yet another German GD.

[Fortune]

Is Feuerschwinge a Great Dragon, or simply an adult Dragon?

She was (is?) a Great Dragon.

[Fuchs]

With Feuerschwinge being brought up, I alway compared her to Ghostwalker as an example of how wacky and unsubstantial the original German setting was. GW glides in through the rift, checks in at the reception and then goes on to take on a whole army. Feuerschwinge, also being a GD was brought down by some flak from our "We're a placeholder until a real army arrives" army, the Bundeswehr...
I haven't had a look at the Anti-Dragon Task Force thread but now I'm trying to put this in perspective again. How difficult should it be to kill a GD? How strong may such NPCs become, before their powerlevel leads them to ignore most of the world completely because noone could stop them from anything if they tried?

Anytime a single being faces the military and the military gets to bring its toys and numbers to bear, the single being should lose. Dragon violating our airspace? If it's still there by the time the squadron of intercetors arrives, it's dead. Dragon entering a no-flight zone? Dead. Dragon trying to take a city by itself? Dead.

Dragon flying, as an official SK flight? No problem. Dragon entering a no-flight zone, while a megacorp is pressuring the government, and SK-units are covering it? No problem. Dragon attacking a city, with an army at its back, and a plan that was prepared for a long time, pieces set up to click into place at the right moment, and the powers that be distracted elsewhere? Sure thing.

But Godzilla should die everytime he's sighted. No exception, not after 50 years of seeing a dozen Godzillas around. The world's militaries should not be writen off as so stupid as to be unable to master killing dragons after this time. It runs counter to all experience.

[Fortune]

Yeah, yeah, Dragons and Immoral Elves are gods, and the world is theirs, and only ome plot device make it actually appear as if the megacorps, governments and other powers had any influence. As I said, If I wanted to play Earthdawn or FR, I'd play ED or FR.

Funny, because we want to play Shadowrun, which does contain, and always has contained, Dragons and elves and dwarves and the like along with the Megacorps. It is the mix that makes the game special and unique. You sound like you'd be much more content with a purer cyberpunk game world than the one that Shadowrun portrays (and has always portrayed).

You have already admitted that you change canon in your games to fit your style. If you are willing to do that, why do you need to wish to ruin parts of the game world that other people like by having those parts excised? There is a wide and rich variety of material in the Sixth World for Players and GMs to pick and choose from. Why the need to arbitrarily limit other people's fun just because you personally don't like a certain aspect of that world (especially as you already change the setting in your game)?.

[DocTaotsu]

If I recall the Anti-Dragon taskforce is devoted to answering the by the rules question of how many Thor rounds can dance on the head of a dragon. People seem to have a problem with invincible dragons but not invincible megacorporations. It seems to me that taking down either is equally likely and the tools you use would be the same. This is largely because most of the GD's appear to be pretty tied up in corporate politics and power to begin with. They bleed, I'm sure they die, but I think killing one is probably about as likely as killing Ares. It could be done, but what would it be worth the cost? Do /you/ want to go clear out a GD's lair?


Uhm.. a world run by relics of the past? Isn't that half the fun of the Shadowrun setting? Strange and mysterious things beyond human understanding? No?

I have to agree with you Fortune. My Sixth world has always been a diverse setting. Everyones got a niche but no group or individual can truly lay claim to the whole of the world.

[KCKitsune]

I think the IM & GD were a hold over from FASA. They had a wankage factor the likes of which were disgusting to see! Let's list their two biggest money makers and their Editor's Avatars

Battletech: The Clans. These frakkers had better tech, better pilots, & better ships. The only reason the Inner Sphere had any chance was the writers thought to themselves: "Oh God we can't sell lots of minis if battles were 1 on 1... quick find some bullshit reason the IS people can win so we can have better sales!"

Shadowrun: Elves, Dragons, and the Great Ghost Dance. These frakkers can take nukes (why were the elves not nuked in the very beginning I have no clue... it would have served the assholes right), and laugh.

[Ophis]

Anytime a single being faces the military and the military gets to bring its toys and numbers to bear, the single being should lose. Dragon violating our airspace? If it's still there by the time the squadron of intercetors arrives, it's dead. Dragon entering a no-flight zone? Dead. Dragon trying to take a city by itself? Dead.

Dragon flying, as an official SK flight? No problem. Dragon entering a no-flight zone, while a megacorp is pressuring the government, and SK-units are covering it? No problem. Dragon attacking a city, with an army at its back, and a plan that was prepared for a long time, pieces set up to click into place at the right moment, and the powers that be distracted elsewhere? Sure thing.

But Godzilla should die everytime he's sighted. No exception, not after 50 years of seeing a dozen Godzillas around. The world's militaries should not be writen off as so stupid as to be unable to master killing dragons after this time. It runs counter to all experience.

But GW was not Godzilla. He was fighting guerilla war. Anything that came to the field that could hurt him was eliminated or he plled a vanishing act.

Plus he didn't take Denver by force, he appeared demonstrated his power, and attacked things he wanted rid of, all the while cutting deals behind the scene and buying off enough people to get what he wanted. He offered a Denver that actually functioned (by removing a faction from the table). This made the countries who stayed happy as they all hate the Azzies. We have no proof but it's possible he made deals with corps as well, but then Denver wasn't a major place for any of them, he didn't destroy its smuggler haven status so what do they lose?

Corps don't control the world in SR. No one does. There's lots of people who think they should, maybe lots with the power to do it, but none of them have the stones to stick their neck out. Anyone who does that gets their head cut off. Ghostwalker took a city, and in title only, yes he shook Denver up but then it mostly returned to satus quo.

[DocTaotsu]

If everyone hates IM's and GD's because they're monolithic and all powerful why don't you all hate megacorps too? Shouldn't the fact that 20 dudes sitting in a room pretty much run their own country upset you?

IM's, Megacorp's, GD's, Trolls with Panther Assault cannons. These are all just set pieces that exist so you don't have to have a degree in political calculus to figure out what happens between games.

[Fuchs]

Funny, because we want to play Shadowrun, which does contain, and always has contained, Dragons and elves and dwarves and the like along with the Megacorps. It is the mix that makes the game special and unique. You sound like you'd be much more content with a purer cyberpunk game world than the one that Shadowrun portrays (and has always portrayed).

You have already admitted that you change canon in your games to fit your style. If you are willing to do that, why do you need to wish to ruin parts of the game world that other people like by having those parts excised? There is a wide and rich variety of material in the Sixth World for Players and GMs to pick and choose from. Why the need to arbitrarily limit other people's fun just because you personally don't like a certain aspect of that world (especially as you already change the setting in your game)?.

Funny, I see a world of difference between a setting where everyone has a niche, and a setting ruled by dragons and immortal elves.

I like elves, dwarves and dragons as part of a cyberpunk world. I like fantasy, and dark magic, in Shadowrun.

I don't like a world that's basically fantasy, with some make-up trying to look like cyberpunk. And a world where dragons can rampage without consequence, and where the world is controlled by dragons and immortal elves is just that - a fantasy world with guns instead of swords. There's nothing to pick or choose from since nothing matters at all in a world with singel-being armies, and elves able to chain cast GGD level spells.

From my point of view, it's you who's singelmindedly trying to ruin a setting, and wanting to drive out anything but the great dragons and elves as powers.

[KCKitsune]

If everyone hates IM's and GD's because they're monolithic and all powerful why don't you all hate megacorps too? Shouldn't the fact that 20 dudes sitting in a room pretty much run their own country upset you?

IM's, Megacorp's, GD's, Trolls with Panther Assault cannons. These are all just set pieces that exist so you don't have to have a degree in political calculus to figure out what happens between games.

I can stomach Mega Corps about a googolplex times more than I can stomach IE's and GD's. At least a Mega Corp is reasonable. They can't destroy the world... not really. That is, of course, based on the notion that Megas don't have a lot of nukes.

[Fuchs]

If everyone hates IM's and GD's because they're monolithic and all powerful why don't you all hate megacorps too? Shouldn't the fact that 20 dudes sitting in a room pretty much run their own country upset you?

IM's, Megacorp's, GD's, Trolls with Panther Assault cannons. These are all just set pieces that exist so you don't have to have a degree in political calculus to figure out what happens between games.

Because megacorps are not monolithic. They are divided into sub-corps, and shares, and execs who compete with each other. And they play by modern rules - in a modern, capitalistic world where we have progress, and technology.

And again - I have nothing against a dragon ruling a megacorp. I have issues with a dragon acting as if this was the forgotten realms, where no one ever invented AAA, missiles, and dozens of other heavy weapons, and getting away with it without falling to said modern weapons.

[Fortune]

Funny, I see a world of difference between a setting where everyone has a niche, and a setting ruled by dragons and immortal elves.

I've read all the books. Can you point me to the places where it illustrates Elves and Dragons ruling the world? In my reading of the books, it appears that they have their place, alongside a lot of other entities.

From my point of view, it's you who's singelmindedly trying to ruin a setting, and wanting to drive out anything but the great dragons and elves as powers.

Are you fucking kidding me? It is you that is pleading with the developers to change and remove certain parts of the core setting, not I. How am I ruining anyone else's game by using the setting as written? If you choose to change the setting in your games, that's fine and more power to you. But you are advocating wholesale change to the setting merely because you personally don't like it and don't want anyone else to use it, and that is what I take exception with.

[Fuchs]

What I am asking for is less Dragons in power. Make them - as you said they were - a niche. We have Great Dragons all over the world. We've got Denver ruled by one, another one on the council in Tir, one rules a megacorp, another runs the guerllias on the Philipines, and Amazonia has a great one too in a position of power. China got one, Japan, and I am sure I forgot a number of other powerful greats. One Dragon even became president of the UCAS for an evening.

Would it ruin the setting to have more areas where you can swing a cat without hitting a dragon in power? Lowfyr alone has its minions present almost everywhere. You don't need to add a dragon, especially a great dragon, to every plot or area.

[Synner]

Feuerschwinge was/is a Great Dragon (for those of you up in arms about proliferation of GDs there's only a couple of dozen of them to 7 billion of "us" in the Sixth World - and at least 3 of them have been offed in the past 60 years). She woke up under the SOX to find herself and her lair eggs irradiated by the Cattenon disaster, hurting and driven almost insane she went on rampage and was apparently shot down by German military. When her mate Kaltenstein tried to rush in to help her, Nebelherr and Lofwyr stopped him (though their fight was interpreted as something else). I believe the stuff we did with the "German greats" in DotSW makes them far more interesting and well-rounded than they were before (ie. Schwartzkopf, Nebelherr, Feuerschwinge, and Kaltenstein).

As for Ghostwalker, he definitely did not do a Godzilla on Denver - unless I failed to see the movie where Godzilla slinks around hitting specific targets and then vanishing. Ghostwalker performed a series of hit and run attacks where he brought to bear his considerable magical talents to level a half-dozen buildings (which with the exception of the first strike on the teocalli and the Aztech building weren't particularly high priority military targets).

Ghostwalker beat down a few aircraft, helicopters and ground military units - hardly unbelievable. The perspective from which the various sections of Ghost Stories are narrated doesn't allow us to see if what quickened, anchored, or sustained spells he's using to protect himself and reactively target attackers. You don't see that half the times he's attacking a location it's actually an illusion of himself and he's actually standing invisible behind the attackers tearing them to shreds. You don't see the dozens of powerful great form city/hearth/nature spirits discretely racing around behind enemy lines applying Accident, Concealment, Fear, and Confusion on his opponents, seeding chaos among targets, interfering with communications, causing panic in cockpits and command centers increasing reaction times drastically - every time he strikes (and the media have no way of knowing since the effects could be attributed to Ghostwalker himself). In fact, you see exactly what Ghostwalker wanted people to see - a great dragon single-handedly beating the crap out of puny human forces.

[Fuchs]

I've read all the books. Can you point me to the places where it illustrates Elves and Dragons ruling the world? In my reading of the books, it appears that they have their place, alongside a lot of other entities.

They even retconned the great ghost dance to have been the result of immortal elves' meddling. Couldn't have been a totem influencing the shamans, or - what a thought! - humans discovering the magic by themselves. Nope, had to have immortal elven involvement in the single most important event that changed the political landscape of northern america.

Really, can we please see IEs and GDs cut down so they stand beside, and not on top of the rest of the powers, so we really have niches and a mix plot and powerwise?

[Fuchs]

Feuerschwinge was/is a Great Dragon (for those of you up in arms about proliferation of GDs there's only a couple of dozen of them to 7 billion of "us" in the Sixth World - and at least 3 of them have been offed in the past 60 years). She woke up under the SOX to find herself and her lair eggs irradiated by the Cattenon disaster, hurting and driven almost insane she went on rampage and was apparently shot down by German military. When her mate Kaltenstein tried to rush in to help her, Nebelherr and Lofwyr stopped him (though their fight was interpreted as something else). I believe the stuff we did with the "German greats" in DotSW makes them far more interesting and well-rounded than they were before (ie. Schwartzkopf, Nebelherr, Feuerschwinge, and Kaltenstein).

As for Ghostwalker, he definitely did not do a Godzilla on Denver - unless I failed to see the movie where Godzilla slinks around hitting specific targets and then vanishing. Ghostwalker performed a series of hit and run attacks where he brought to bear his considerable magical talents to level a half-dozen buildings (which with the exception of the first strike on the teocalli and the Aztech building weren't particularly high priority military targets).

Ghostwalker beat down a few aircraft, helicopters and ground military units - hardly unbelievable. The perspective from which the various sections of Ghost Stories are narrated doesn't allow us to see if what quickened, anchored, or sustained spells he's using to protect himself and reactively target attackers. You don't see that half the times he's attacking a location it's actually an illusion of himself and he's actually standing invisible behind the attackers tearing them to shreds. You don't see the dozens of powerful great form city/hearth/nature spirits discretely racing around behind enemy lines applying Accident, Concealment, Fear, and Confusion on his opponents, seeding chaos among targets, interfering with communications, causing panic in cockpits and command centers increasing reaction times drastically - every time he strikes (and the media have no way of knowing since the effects could be attributed to Ghostwalker himself). In fact, you see exactly what Ghostwalker wanted people to see - a great dragon single-handedly beating the crap out of puny human forces.

And we don't see modern military sensors not caring about invisibility at all. We don't see expert systems running drone nets, and calculating the best responses. We don't see human forces who fit in with what we know of humans in our world, and our talent to find better ways to kill stuff in record time. We don't see human military actually having more than a single digit IQ, and having the training and gear to handle magical threats - despite even security being challenged by magical threats all the time through shadowrunners.

Please, if those tricks were so effective against the military, then shadowrunners would be unstoppable since they use the exact same tricks, just on a smaller scale.

Great form spirits, concealment, confusion, illusions - all this is, sorry to burst your bubble, nothing new. Heck, whenever a GM here complains about a mage running amok over his corpsec, we've got people listing dozens of ways to deal with it, but when it's a dragon walking all over the military, we're just supposed to nod?

Get real. The only reason GW got away with his stuff is that Dragons are the devs' pets. If runners would have tired such stuff against corpsec, they'd have ended up dead. But then, they lack the "I am a dragon, so my enemy at once loses all braincells, and all competence" aura of author's protection.

[Ryu]

I like dragons and IEs. I like subtle ED connections, makes me feel like I´m in on a secret. Yet neither has played any significant role in our SR world, excepting the Harlequin campaigns. That was SR2, right? SR without its magic is only cyberpunk, and I do not want dragons portrayed in the way of the Knights of Krynn-series (as fun as that was).

As for destroying the Denver setting, I think its quite the opposite. Real-world precedents suggest that several nations should not share one town for long. "Benevolent" guidance makes it more believeable.

[Synner]

The military are trying to protect the entire city while Ghostwalker is striking particular locations apparently at random - none of those location are hardened military targets by the way.

So first the military have to realize where the attack is going on, and mobilize units to get the target - all under spirit and magical interference - and on a scale and force that exceeds any tactical use of magic the military are familiar with. Five (illusory) sightings of Ghostwalker appearing and attacking at different points in the city zone where his real target is should send units scrambling off to the wrong locations, while GW waits outside the target in (ultra)Masked human form. When the military are spread out enough, he orders his great form spirit army to start interfering with communications, causing disruption, and seeding chaos among the units that have been mobilized and the command centers. Force 20 Accidents, Movement, Bind, Concealment, Fear. he then shifts to his draconic form ("appearing from nowhere"), and starts in on the actual target with the help of a handful of elementals and other spirits.

This isn't a standup fight. This is the magical equivalent of 10 Al Qaeda cells running around downtown Manhattan throwing grenades and shooting up the place while the real terrorist sneak a dirty bomb into a specific building. The military's chances are about the same too. They have very few options to counter a concerted guerrilla campaign of this type (and fewer still to counter magic this heavy). This isn't battlefield magic or spirits of a power range combat magicians are used to. No one has experienced anything on this scale since the Great Ghost Dance, and even then it was human-grade magic. This isn't even dragon magic, this is a Great Dragon that dates back to the Second World showing off his powers and his intellect. Of course the military have contingency plans in place, they're just not going to be enough.

So "get real", seriously? In a surprise attack and guerrilla tactics the tactics described above things do make a difference (which is why shadowrunners do use them when stealth isn't a factor) and on the level a GD can bring to bear they make even more of a difference. Add Concealment to the (Improved) Invisibility mix. Use add Masking and Extended Masking in the double digits.

A Force 20 Great Form using Accident, Binding, Concealment, Confusion, Storm, and any number of other powers against a drone network, command post, let alone mundane soldiers in the field is going to cause major disruption/damage - multiple spirits are going to do even more. Now add multiple such cumulative effects and factor in that Ghostwalker will be adding his own spellcasting abilities to the mix. Any field magic defenses or spirits metahuman military magicians will be deploying are going to be overwhelmed even before the mundanes are hit.

[Fuchs]

I think you have no idea how fast troops are mobilised - especially after the first dragon attack, and especially after decades of shadowrunners trying those exact tactics. Again, if GW can get away with this in Denver, then any runner group could do it to high-security installations. Given that we have multiple ways to counter runners and their spirit platoons, I find it unbelievable that the military, especially a military as savy in magic as Aztlan, would be unable to cope with this sort of assault. What are their blood mages doing? Did their jaguar guards sleep through the magical threat training? Where were all those spirits and tech and people who scare experienced runners? Taking a break, and some fresh recruits halfway into basic training were replacing them, all over town?

Did everyone refuse to learn from stuff people pulled in the 2050s? Did no military every analyse the attack on North California by the Tir?

I say "cheap plot device" to the Denver incident. With enemies such as those the armies there were portrayed as, a shadowrunner team should fear nothing.

The whole thing reminds me of a campaign with two GMs, where one GM has the Therans be the over-powerful masters of magic, capturing the entire adventuring group with ease singlehandedly, and the next lets the same adventuring group slaughter their way through a theran fortress after breaking out of their cells. It just does not fit together.

[Grinder]

They may not be tied, but the more important thing is that the owners of the licenses for both games are the same people. Their licensees are just different. So Red Brick or Living Room or whoever has been licensed to publish ED now probably doesn't have the authority to tell Catalyst what do do with Rob's pocket lint.

The Line Developers of both RedBrick and Catalyst are in contact regularly. And of course every new ED book published by RedBrick has to be approved by FASA (who still owns the rights of ED), so I guess it's doubtful at best that a sourcebook will be released that contradicts SR canon (like in: "bang! all dragons are dead!").

[Herald of Verjig...]

Shadowrunners do tend to do things like this to high security installations. By the books, shadowrunners aren't a big part of the population, and tend to want money for doing such things, so there is usually a nuyen motive and a clear backer.

Since your mind is already cemented and no amount of reasoning can change it, all I'll say about Denver is that you seem to be missing out on the strongly implied (and possibly even stated, I don't remember if there is any part about that) detail that the dragon had already made deals with the other factions in the city. It's fairly obvious from one of the later sections that he had post-Azzie plans already written up that the other factions would enjoy, but since his stance on smuggling is "pay your taxes however you get the cred," this also suggests that he had made similar arrangements with non-governmental power groups in the city.
If you do indeed have an imagination, try imagining what kinds of covert ways the other nations in Denver could annoy the Azzie sector without looking like an open act of war. Then imagine what would happen if all the gangs had forewarning that there would be a very large distraction. Then throw a dragon at the main magical threat in the sector with a few other appearances for the news crews to get a good photo.

[Fuchs]

Which should have been in the books, instead of a poster story for "dragons are gods and untouchable". And still does not explain the stupidity of the military forces there, and their apparent lack of experience with regards to magic, as well as the lack of spirits and (blood) mages on their side.

As I said - if such preparations were made, then it fits. But they were not mentioned, and even Synner gave the tired and internally incosistent "the Dragon uses MAGIC" excuse.

For a corp/nation whose elite troops have 2 magic capable people per squad, Aztlan sure was written like they were re-enacting the civil war of 2017 and playing the clueless americans.