 Conjuring adepts and allies, here we go again. |
 Dec 5 2003, 04:52 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304  |
So, for those of you who believe in conjurers getting the 35 points at char-gen, do you feel they should be allowed to create ally spirits with them?
|
 |
 
|
 |
Replies
(1 - 78)
|
Dec 5 2003, 04:57 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Well, he'd have to be innitiated right off at char gen... and if you're going to allow that, then allowing a free spirit with what's left is not a long stretch.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2003, 05:02 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You don't have to be an initiate to create an ally spirit. Familiars, on the other hand, require the initiation ordeal (and the only major benefit is that you don't lose a point of Magic immediately).
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2003, 06:23 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Really? Rules must've gotten fuzy in my head. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 01:01 AM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
I was expecting a 10 page flame war. What's wrong with you guys ;)
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 01:02 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Well, there wasn't a lot to say on the issue.
You raving idiot. :D |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 01:11 AM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Well, it's much better if you do create one using the Familiar ordeal (no Magic Loss and reduction in the Karma for your next grade), but like I said you don't have to. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2003, 03:44 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
How do you get a karma reduction in your next grade from that?
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 03:48 AM
Post
#9
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
That's because you asked the wrong question! The correct question to start a flame war on conjurers is: "Should conjurers be allowed to teach spells to their ally spirits even though they can't actively use sorcery themselves?" |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2003, 04:01 AM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
To which my reply would be; No, but there is no reason why they couldn't get someone that can cast spells to teach them. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2003, 04:21 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Conjurers get 35 points. They can't summon allys using that karma by the book but I suspect several GMs'd allow it. It's a moot point that there is nothing to stop the ally of a conjuror from having spells as it can never be taught the sorcery skill (max rating = summoners) and so could never cast them.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 04:33 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
<sighs>
Yes, they can use those points to summon ally spirits. Any magician who has spell points can use them as if they were karma for any magical purposes whatsoever during character creation. That includes bonding foci, buying spells, joining a magical society, initiating, and creating ally spirits. Also, Conjurers are perfectly free to take Sorcery as a skill. It's sole requirement is a Magic Attribute of 1 or higher. Even adepts can take Sorcery (and they're even specifically mentioned as being able to use it in the Astral Combat chapter). They just can't use it, but that doesn't mean it can't be given to their ally spirits. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 04:35 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That red text looks like it's slanting.
And Doc, that's an optional rule, so it varies by GM. ~J |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 04:37 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I was responding to Lilt's suggestion that it's a house rule, whereas it's an actual bonified rule (in the Shadowrun Companion).
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 09:12 AM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
My GM allowed me to when I made a conjuring adept. I also wanted to initiate pre-game and he allowed the ally as my ordeal (still no group, though, so it was a little expensive). As a GM, I would allow the same. It makes sense, too - if a conjuror's main focus is spirits, he should be allowed to start with a (relatively) powerful spirit if he wants to.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 09:20 AM
Post
#16
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
By Canon, at Ally Creation, you can give your Ally spells you don't personally have by writing it into the ally-formula. Don't know about teaching the Ally spirit afterwards, but during Ally Creation, you sure can. Sphynx |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2003, 09:25 AM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Since everybody else is jumping off topic a bit... I was wondering. Considering all the ink (electrons?) that has been spilled over this theoretical discussion (mostly on the last thread that included it) - has anybody actually gone ahead and allowed it in their game? Anybody allowed conjuring adepts to teach their allies spells (or allow the allies to get spells some other way)? Did it work, if so?
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 02:36 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes, and it works just fine. There have been no complaints whatsoever from anyone, and it hasn't even come close to being even remotely a balance issue.
Their ally spirits are just the same as everyone else's ally spirits. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 04:43 PM
Post
#19
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
How might he write it into the formula without ever having seen the formula for the spell in the first place? :P |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 6 2003, 04:47 PM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
heh. too bad you can't teach your ally to conjure.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 04:54 PM
Post
#21
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Hmm? Where is it? I fully acknowledge that I may have missed something but i'm looking and I still can't find it. Do you have a page #? [edit] Ack: Just found it in the resources section of all places. I retract my comment about not being able to summon an ally at character creation but you still can't ever teach it sorcery.[/edit] |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2003, 05:02 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
actually, there's nothing that says a conjuring adept can't learn the Sorcery skill--he just won't every be able to use it. even a mundane can learn magical skills, as evidenced by multiple accounts in SR during the Awakening of magical rituals suddenly having effect.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 05:04 PM
Post
#23
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Who says they can't read or understand the fomulae? Just because they can't cast it or defend against it, it doesn't mean they don't know what it is or can't add it into another formula. I know "learning a spell" uses Sorcery, but it's ridiculous to assume that it's an "active use" of Sorcery... especially considering that bashing an astral entity is a far more active use, yet perfectly allowable. It's like assuming that a burnt-out magician is forced to "forget" all of his learned spells when his Sorcery skill (for some strange, bizarre, and incomprehensible reason) transforms into the Sorcery Background skill, which is a completely different skill to begin with. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2003, 05:15 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 5,494 |
I'd also like to point out that MiTS talks about Mundanes who design spells that work very well. They just cannot cast and test them. As such, a Conjurer could learn everything about Sorcery, background, and active(How to do it). Just because it is ineefective for them does not mean they cannot learn it. And then teach it. If a Mundane can create spells, I am sure a Conjurer can teach his spirit to cast them. After all, the spirit has the power, just not the knowledge of how to do it.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 05:46 PM
Post
#25
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Nobody. I asked how the conjurer could write a spell into the formula of his ally without ever having seen the spell formula in the first place. According to Sphynx's interpretation, you simply pay karma and knowledge of the spell descends from heaven. There's no mention that spell formulae are required at all (because the spells are supposed to come from the conjurers spell list in the first place). |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 6 2003, 05:49 PM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No, the spells aren't supposed to come from the conjurer's spell list. Nothing in the rules even comes close to saying that. It's assumed the character knows the spell, and failing that it's assumed they have the formula. Some things just don't need to be written out, and it's foolish to assume the opposite simply because they don't specifically tell you as much.
It's exactly the same as how the rules never tell you you have to use the restroom, so naturally you never do as the heavens simply open up and absorb waste products from you or whatever... right? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 06:19 PM
Post
#27
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
It doesn't actually say that anywhere, though. It's assumed that the spell comes from their spell list because that's what the previous sentence in the same paragraph addresses. You yourself said that the context of the rules was clear in this regard. And as I've said before, in a world where a person can train themselves to a high level in a skill that they have never ever used, strict canon must continue to be applied. Me, I have no such problems because my conjurers don't have sorcery, my spirits don't have cyber-implant combat, and my armless people haven't trained themselves to be tennis pros. If you're throwing common sense out the window with sorcery-trained conjurers, then you can't bring it back by assuming the presense of spell formulae :P |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2003, 06:30 PM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Actually, you know... you're right. The rules *specifically* state that neither a formula nor an instructor who knows the spell are required for an ally spirit to learn a spell.
The last sentence states, and I quote, "after creation, the magician must learn spells for the ally, paying the usual Karma cost, as described under the Sorcery power, p. 118 ." Going to page 118 and reading the Sorcery power, you then find this quote: "A spirit, however, does not need the usual tools and props of magicians. Neither does a spirit need a teacher or spell formula because it is always in tune with mana, the heart and source of magic." The only thing that's required is the time to learn the spell and the Karma for it. For Ally Spirits, the conjurer need merely supply the Karma and share the time with the spirit as it learns the spell. The only downfall is that a newly created Ally Spirit doesn't get a free spell from an aspected conjurer because an aspected conjurer has no spell for it to gain for free; a special trait of Ally Spirits. Thanks for forcing me to read up on it. Clears a lot of problems and questions up. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 06:52 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Holy crap, I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole. I can only imagine the immense size this thread could achieve with such delicious looking bait.
So do what you like. Ally spirits won't use rules for free spirits in my games, though. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 07:04 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You're the one who referenced it and wanted to stick to canon.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 07:26 PM
Post
#31
|
|||||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
You know, although it states that the Ally would have a Sorcery skill equal to the Conjurers, it never says anything about the needing a Sorcery roll to add a formulae into a Ally Formula. You know why? Because you don't need Sorcery to add a 'spell' to an Ally formula, only to add the Sorcery skill. You're not writing a spell here, you're adjusting the personification of mana (Ie: a spirit). So, to answer your question more clearly, he's not writing a spell formula into the ally formula, he's writing an ally formula that knows a spell (or 50). No matter how you decide to twist the context, it will still be Canon that a Conjurer can write a spell into an Ally Formula without having the spell formula, or the spell. Sphynx |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Dec 6 2003, 07:50 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
So, you guys are saying that not only can a conjurer summon an ally at character creation, it can cast spells and provide spell defense too?
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 08:01 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Yes, that's exactly what we're saying. ;) But remember, you pay force points in spell points, so just how many spells are you going to be able to teach it, and are you willing to learn Sorcery at Char-Gen for your Ally, since you'll never be able to use your Sorcery skill for anything else? Highest Force you could start with is force 4 for 30 of your 50 karma cap. A few Force 4 spells, and spell defense for a spirit that's little more than Cannon Fodder in some games (based on that Force).
Sphynx |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2003, 11:03 PM
Post
#34
|
|||||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Not according to SR3. Mundanes can learn knowledge skills related to magic, but to learn Active Magic skills requires at least a Magic Attribute of 1. Those accounts of rituals suddenly working are because the practitioner actually had a Magic Rating, even if it wasn't much use before the awakening.
Designing spells does not require knowledge of Active Magic skills, but is covered under the Spell Design knowledge skill. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 7 2003, 02:25 AM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
page number, fortune? i've looked all through SR3, and nowhere do i see a restriction on learning skills.
edit: can't find anything in MitS, either. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2003, 02:37 AM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The only restriction is that you have to use the Sorcery active skill to learn a spell. To have Sorcery, you have to have a Magic of 1. It's a ridiculous rule, but I do understand why they did it (for simplicity's sake) -- they just failed to see the implications.
At the very least, you should be able to default to Spell Design or Sorcery Background to learn a spell. There's absolutely no reason for it to be restricted to magicians, even if it serves no real purpose for anyone but a magician to learn them. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2003, 02:40 AM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
where's it say you need a magic of 1 to have sorcery? like i said, the only places i see that talk about it say use.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2003, 02:41 AM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
where's it say you need a magic of 1 to have sorcery? like i said, the only places i see that talk about it say use.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2003, 02:41 AM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
In the skill description in the Skills chapter. SR3 p. 87.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2003, 02:42 AM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
ack. jesus, how'd i miss that?
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2003, 02:43 AM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
If you think that's weird, check out the bit about what happens when you burn-out and hit Magic 0. SR3 p. 160, last paragraph of "Magic Loss."
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2003, 02:47 AM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
...that's so wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2003, 11:40 AM
Post
#43
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
That's a previous version rule - the lack of knowledge skills meant that anybody could have the magical skills, but treat them just like knowledge skills and not actually be able to use them. Without close reading I'd probably have thought the same thing (not that I'd want a character with zero magic wasting points on sorcery). I'd probably overrule that (and the burn-out) rule and make them keep it, with the background skill at the appropriate level, rather than the (presumably) higher rated active skill |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 7 2003, 11:57 PM
Post
#44
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Sorry, but it is not a rule from a previous version. As Doc pointed out, you can find the rule in the SR3 Core rulebook, on page 160. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 8 2003, 05:04 AM
Post
#45
|
|||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Look at it this way. Do you demand that all spellcasters buy the spell formulas for the spells on their list? Are they even required to? No? Well, then, why should allies be any different? If a mage doesn't need a formula to start with, then the ally doesn't, either. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 8 2003, 05:21 AM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If they are learning it in-game (ie. after chargen), I do. They either buy a the spell formula, or create it themselves, but the presence of a formula is necessary for the mage or shaman to learn the spell. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 8 2003, 06:34 AM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And, as previously stated and referenced in MitS, spirits -- both Free and Ally -- don't need a formula. They just have to spend the time (and in an Ally's case, that means the Conjurer has to spend the time with them) and Karma (and in the Ally's case, that Karma comes from the Conjurer) to learn a spell. They specifically do not need an instructor or a formula.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 06:46 AM
Post
#48
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And if you read my post, it specifically answers a question about mages. :) Be that as it may, I believe that the canon rules state that the Spirit doesn't need the formula because it specifically states that the summoner learns the spell for it. Nowhere does it state that the Spirit's master does not need a formula to learn a spell, only that the Spirit itself doesn't need it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 8 2003, 08:32 AM
Post
#49
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Says that for post-creation, not pre-creation. At Ally Creation, no spell has to be 'learned' and no formula is required to write a spell into the Ally formula. Sphynx |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 8 2003, 08:37 AM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
As far as I knew, that was what we were discussing. Cain replied to Zazen about paying Karma to learn spells, which is post-creation.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 06:04 PM
Post
#51
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751 |
Throwing oil on the fire:
Stricktly speaking conjuring adepts cannot use the enchanting skill either. Most of this discussion is the main reason why so many house rules exist for SR magic. I have a lot of HRs for aspected magicians to encourage players to limit themselves. Has anyone played a conjuror who had more than one ally spirit? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 06:16 PM
Post
#52
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Huh? Where does it say that a Conjuror can't have Enchanting, musta missed that one....?
Sphynx |
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 09:45 PM
Post
#53
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751 |
Neither can sorcerors. They are aspected for one skill only. Moving along to totem aspected magicians, to the best of my recolection only Creator gives a bonus to enchanting allowing them to use the skill. Also there is a voudoo aspect that I can't recall the name of that allows the use of enchanting.
In the SR3 book it states to the effect: Conjurors can only use conjuring and sorcerors can only use sorcery. There is no amendment to this rule in MitS. Going back to SR2 this was also the standard rule. Only Full Magicians have the ability to use all three skills. As far as I know the wording doen't prohibit learning the skill, only effective use. GM's could be nice and allow you to use it as a complimentary skill to your Talismongering Knowledge skill rolls. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 10:16 PM
Post
#54
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Mine doesn't say that. My book says:
Doesn't say they can ONLY use Conjuring, so you'd have to go by what the skill says, and the only limitation I see in my description of Enchanting is Awakened with a Magic score of at least 1. I think you're wrong there boss.
Sphynx |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 8 2003, 10:28 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
As far as I know, even physads can use Enchanting - they're Awakened and they have a magic score. Of course, they might not have any idea about how to make a spell focus if they don't use spells, but I have no doubt they could make a bad-ass weapon-focus if that was their specialty...
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 10:41 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Enchanting, just like Build/Repair Skills, are wholly independant from other Active Skills. An adept can make a Specific Spell Focus just as easily as a Weapon Focus. The same is true with other Build/Repair Skills; you don't have to have Computers to build a cyberdeck with Computers B/R. The skill includes all the skill you need (novel concept, huh?).
The only exception that I know of is Anchoring Foci, and even then you simply have to know the Anchoring Metamagic Technique. No additional skill is required and it's a notable exception to the norm (which is why they specifically mention it). |
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 10:50 PM
Post
#57
|
|
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Yeah, okay, fair enough, even a physad could probably make whatever. But though I realize there are no rules really for it, would you trust specialty equipment designed and made by people who don't know a thing about its use? Somebody who didn't know the first thing about computers and how they work shouldn't be designing and building computers, either. They can put peg A into slot B or whatever (raw telesma A into orichalcum loop B?) but they don't understand why, so they can't really do the thing justice.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 10:52 PM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751 |
Damn, ain't I an old fogy. If so that really brings to task the existance of that voudoo apected magician that I still can't remember the name of. Why did they specifically mention they were able to enchant if all conjurors can? Especiall with all the negatives they heap on them. Carrying around an active focus is not my idea of an advantage.
Still lingering in SR2 sometimes... |
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 11:00 PM
Post
#59
|
|
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Are you thinking of obeyifa? MitS says that they can create specially designed foci, not the same as going out of the way to say they can enchant. The fact that they can enchant is a given.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 11:05 PM
Post
#60
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The thing is, they do know how it works, just like engineers know how what they're building work. They just don't know how to use it.
Do you really think the people who built your car are stunt driving dynamos? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2003, 11:22 PM
Post
#61
|
|||
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
No, but I think that the people who designed my car (which is what we're really talking about here - you can't just go out and get the blueprints for a focus, because every one is different, depending on the materials available, etc) knew how to drive a car and knew what it meant to have anti-lock breaks vs. non-anti-lock breaks, or 4-wheel drive vs. 2-wheel drive. They weren't stunt drivers, no, but they had to ask themselves what they think is important in a car, in their own driving experience. That's what makes a great car design. Physads (and conjurors) would have a much more difficult time designing something they haven't ever used and couldn't ever use. Also, I do think that physads could make spell foci etc. I'm not saying they can't. I just think that they'd make ones that aren't as good as ones that magicians that can cast spells can make. Its such a nitpicky point its doubtfull that I would ever make rules about it, but I think it adds to the flavor of the game world, separates the products of any given enchanter apart from any other given one (among other things). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 9 2003, 12:04 AM
Post
#62
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Ford (feel free to insert anyone else if you feel like nitpicking) certainly didn't know how to drive a car before he built his. Up until computers became mainstream, you could rest assured knowing that most of the techies repairing yours barely knew how to turn it on (and even today you're lucky to find one who has a half a wit about them). I doubt if most aeronautical engineers know how to fly those jet planes they're churning out on their CAD programs. They may know the theories behind it, and what someone else has to do to use them, but they themselves most likely don't have first hand experience doing it.
Just like Enchanters. That's why it's its own unique skill, and not one derived of from any others. You can't even default to it from another skill. The Tech-Wiz archetype includes all kinds of Build/Repair skills without the actual skill to use them. I guess he's the last one you'd want working on your stuff, too, eh? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 12:26 AM
Post
#63
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
From the official FAQ:
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 9 2003, 12:32 AM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That's so silly. I guess we should start requiring everyone with a Build/Repair skill of any type to have the base skill, too, else not be able to do anything with it, too. Might as well get rid of Background Knowledge skills as well; afterall, if you can't actually do it, you shouldn't be able to know how it works, either. It's insane.
It's bad enough you have to have a Magic Attribute of 1 for those types of skills, but it just makes a guy wonder how all those burnt-out maged-turned-Talismongers that all but makeup the majority of the industry manage to make anything. Afterall, they can't use any magical skills any longer. But hey, at least they can still make fetishes and ritual materials without having to know how to use those. :please: |
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 12:34 AM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
On the bright side, it's the FAQ. It's an official suggestion, but it ain't canon. That's what we have, that there's no answer, and unless they release an errata you can rule however you want.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 12:35 AM
Post
#66
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I could rule however I wanted either way, silly. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 12:41 AM
Post
#67
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No you couldn't. The now-jobless FASA rules-enforcement teams would come and break your legs. It says it in SR3. ;)
~J |
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 12:45 AM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Bah. I have a katana and a dikoted ally spirit. I ain't afraid of those wussies.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 12:55 AM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
Hey Doc, you got that right?
your Ally Spirit is dikoted, and you have a katana? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 02:23 AM
Post
#70
|
|||
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
After having thought about it... You're definately right on some points there. Probably most aeronautical engineers have never flown a plane, etc. Dunno about Ford, et al. So I will actually probably do that differently in my games (not that its ever come up, but if it did...). I'll probably go against the FAQ suggestion on this one. OTOH, I still think that design can benefit from a working knowledge of how to use something. Don't you think that if an engineer had actually used his products, he'd be better able to design things? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 9 2003, 02:27 AM
Post
#71
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think it's perfectly reasonable that people that are only in touch with the conjuring aspects of magic (for example) are limited to enchanting things that have to do with Spirits, being that's what they know, as opposed to the magical things they don't have a clue about.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 02:29 AM
Post
#72
|
|||
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Wow. That explains a lot. I always wondered where Polaris and toturi worked... :wobble: |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 9 2003, 02:33 AM
Post
#73
|
|||
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Yeah, but if you think about the Enchanting skill - you are going to learn all the theory that comes with it. Whether or not you can actually cast spells, if you learn Enchanting you get a tutorial on how to make things for people that do. You don't need to know why your foci do what they do, just that they do. I do think that a full magician could probably make a better spell focus, knowing what he knows, than a conjuror could, but I still think a conjuror could make one if he learned Enchanting. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 9 2003, 04:16 AM
Post
#74
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Right.
A character with Spell Design doesn't have to have Sorcery in order to design spells. Because Spell Design includes all the knowledge and know-how you need to... that's right... design spells. The same is and should be true of Enchanting. It includes all the know-how you need to create foci and everything else the skill entails, because that's what the skill is all about. Just like Electronics B/R includes all the know-how you need to build and repair any and all Electronics gadgets. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 04:22 AM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So, if Enchanting has nothing to do with how the character interacts with Magic, why is a Magic Attribute of 1 a necessity?
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 04:31 AM
Post
#76
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I don't even pretend to understand that for the other magical skills any more than I do for Enchanting. Just in case you somehow missed that in this thread.
But it's requirement has nothing to do with any of the other skills anymore than Sorcery has anything to do with Conjuring, Centering, or Divining. It's Enchanting's requirement, and that's all it is. Likewise, it's the only requirement for the skill. Feel free to read the actual description for Enchanting. It starts on page 39 of Magic in the Shadows. Your own magical ability has no bearing on it, beyond the idiotic requirement of a Magic Attribute of 1 or higher. By definition, any Awakened character with Enchanting is officially an "Enchanter" (p. 40). Not a "Sorcerer Enchanter" or an "Adept Enchanter." Just an "Enchanter." It's a completely unique magical ability that any magician can acquire and use just by learning the skill. Period. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 04:41 AM
Post
#77
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Just so you know, I'm not actually arguing that you are wrong. :)
It's just that, from a logic standpoint (and by default, in my games), I think that some sort of relationship between the character's actual Magic abilities (outside of Enchanting) and the types of items that he can enchant should exist. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 9 2003, 04:55 AM
Post
#78
|
|||
|
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
IMHO, its because magic use is actually involved. You have to ground magic into the focus to make it work, even though you do it slowly enough to not take drain. And you have to have a magic attribute to channel magical energy. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 9 2003, 05:02 AM
Post
#79
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, I can agree with that. That is why I think that the type of Magic a character can access should have some bearing on the types of Foci that he can Enchant. |
||
|
|
|
||
 |
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 27th July 2025 - 02:38 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.