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Bearclaw
So, for those of you who believe in conjurers getting the 35 points at char-gen, do you feel they should be allowed to create ally spirits with them?
Backgammon
Well, he'd have to be innitiated right off at char gen... and if you're going to allow that, then allowing a free spirit with what's left is not a long stretch.
Ol' Scratch
You don't have to be an initiate to create an ally spirit. Familiars, on the other hand, require the initiation ordeal (and the only major benefit is that you don't lose a point of Magic immediately).
Backgammon
Really? Rules must've gotten fuzy in my head. Thanks.
Bearclaw
I was expecting a 10 page flame war. What's wrong with you guys wink.gif
moosegod
Well, there wasn't a lot to say on the issue.

You raving idiot. biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Backgammon)
Really? Rules must've gotten fuzy in my head. Thanks.

Well, it's much better if you do create one using the Familiar ordeal (no Magic Loss and reduction in the Karma for your next grade), but like I said you don't have to. smile.gif
BitBasher
How do you get a karma reduction in your next grade from that?
Glyph
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
I was expecting a 10 page flame war.  What's wrong with you guys wink.gif

That's because you asked the wrong question! The correct question to start a flame war on conjurers is:

"Should conjurers be allowed to teach spells to their ally spirits even though they can't actively use sorcery themselves?"
Fortune
QUOTE (Glyph)
Should conjurers be allowed to teach spells to their ally spirits even though they can't actively use sorcery themselves?

To which my reply would be; No, but there is no reason why they couldn't get someone that can cast spells to teach them. smile.gif
Lilt
Conjurers get 35 points. They can't summon allys using that karma by the book but I suspect several GMs'd allow it. It's a moot point that there is nothing to stop the ally of a conjuror from having spells as it can never be taught the sorcery skill (max rating = summoners) and so could never cast them.
Ol' Scratch
<sighs>

Yes, they can use those points to summon ally spirits. Any magician who has spell points can use them as if they were karma for any magical purposes whatsoever during character creation. That includes bonding foci, buying spells, joining a magical society, initiating, and creating ally spirits.

Also, Conjurers are perfectly free to take Sorcery as a skill. It's sole requirement is a Magic Attribute of 1 or higher. Even adepts can take Sorcery (and they're even specifically mentioned as being able to use it in the Astral Combat chapter). They just can't use it, but that doesn't mean it can't be given to their ally spirits.
Kagetenshi
That red text looks like it's slanting.
And Doc, that's an optional rule, so it varies by GM.

~J
Ol' Scratch
I was responding to Lilt's suggestion that it's a house rule, whereas it's an actual bonified rule (in the Shadowrun Companion).
Prospero
My GM allowed me to when I made a conjuring adept. I also wanted to initiate pre-game and he allowed the ally as my ordeal (still no group, though, so it was a little expensive). As a GM, I would allow the same. It makes sense, too - if a conjuror's main focus is spirits, he should be allowed to start with a (relatively) powerful spirit if he wants to.
Sphynx
QUOTE (Glyph)
Should conjurers be allowed to teach spells to their ally spirits even though they can't actively use sorcery themselves?

By Canon, at Ally Creation, you can give your Ally spells you don't personally have by writing it into the ally-formula. Don't know about teaching the Ally spirit afterwards, but during Ally Creation, you sure can.

Sphynx
Prospero
Since everybody else is jumping off topic a bit... I was wondering. Considering all the ink (electrons?) that has been spilled over this theoretical discussion (mostly on the last thread that included it) - has anybody actually gone ahead and allowed it in their game? Anybody allowed conjuring adepts to teach their allies spells (or allow the allies to get spells some other way)? Did it work, if so?
Ol' Scratch
Yes, and it works just fine. There have been no complaints whatsoever from anyone, and it hasn't even come close to being even remotely a balance issue.

Their ally spirits are just the same as everyone else's ally spirits.
Zazen
QUOTE (Sphynx)
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 6 2003, 05:48 AM)
Should conjurers be allowed to teach spells to their ally spirits even though they can't actively use sorcery themselves?

By Canon, at Ally Creation, you can give your Ally spells you don't personally have by writing it into the ally-formula.

How might he write it into the formula without ever having seen the formula for the spell in the first place? nyahnyah.gif
mfb
heh. too bad you can't teach your ally to conjure.
Lilt
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Dec 6 2003, 04:37 AM)
I was responding to Lilt's suggestion that it's a house rule, whereas it's an actual bonified rule (in the Shadowrun Companion).

Hmm? Where is it? I fully acknowledge that I may have missed something but i'm looking and I still can't find it. Do you have a page #?

[edit] Ack: Just found it in the resources section of all places. I retract my comment about not being able to summon an ally at character creation but you still can't ever teach it sorcery.[/edit]
mfb
actually, there's nothing that says a conjuring adept can't learn the Sorcery skill--he just won't every be able to use it. even a mundane can learn magical skills, as evidenced by multiple accounts in SR during the Awakening of magical rituals suddenly having effect.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Zazen @ Dec 6 2003, 10:43 AM)
How might he write it into the formula without ever having seen the formula for the spell in the first place? nyahnyah.gif

Who says they can't read or understand the fomulae? Just because they can't cast it or defend against it, it doesn't mean they don't know what it is or can't add it into another formula. I know "learning a spell" uses Sorcery, but it's ridiculous to assume that it's an "active use" of Sorcery... especially considering that bashing an astral entity is a far more active use, yet perfectly allowable.

It's like assuming that a burnt-out magician is forced to "forget" all of his learned spells when his Sorcery skill (for some strange, bizarre, and incomprehensible reason) transforms into the Sorcery Background skill, which is a completely different skill to begin with.
Saintgrimm
I'd also like to point out that MiTS talks about Mundanes who design spells that work very well. They just cannot cast and test them. As such, a Conjurer could learn everything about Sorcery, background, and active(How to do it). Just because it is ineefective for them does not mean they cannot learn it. And then teach it. If a Mundane can create spells, I am sure a Conjurer can teach his spirit to cast them. After all, the spirit has the power, just not the knowledge of how to do it.
Zazen
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (Zazen @ Dec 6 2003, 10:43 AM)
How might he write it into the formula without ever having seen the formula for the spell in the first place? nyahnyah.gif

Who says they can't read or understand the fomulae?

Nobody.

I asked how the conjurer could write a spell into the formula of his ally without ever having seen the spell formula in the first place. According to Sphynx's interpretation, you simply pay karma and knowledge of the spell descends from heaven. There's no mention that spell formulae are required at all (because the spells are supposed to come from the conjurers spell list in the first place).
Ol' Scratch
No, the spells aren't supposed to come from the conjurer's spell list. Nothing in the rules even comes close to saying that. It's assumed the character knows the spell, and failing that it's assumed they have the formula. Some things just don't need to be written out, and it's foolish to assume the opposite simply because they don't specifically tell you as much.

It's exactly the same as how the rules never tell you you have to use the restroom, so naturally you never do as the heavens simply open up and absorb waste products from you or whatever... right?
Zazen
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
It's assumed the character knows the spell, and failing that it's assumed they have the formula.

It doesn't actually say that anywhere, though. It's assumed that the spell comes from their spell list because that's what the previous sentence in the same paragraph addresses. You yourself said that the context of the rules was clear in this regard.

And as I've said before, in a world where a person can train themselves to a high level in a skill that they have never ever used, strict canon must continue to be applied. Me, I have no such problems because my conjurers don't have sorcery, my spirits don't have cyber-implant combat, and my armless people haven't trained themselves to be tennis pros. If you're throwing common sense out the window with sorcery-trained conjurers, then you can't bring it back by assuming the presense of spell formulae nyahnyah.gif
Ol' Scratch
Actually, you know... you're right. The rules *specifically* state that neither a formula nor an instructor who knows the spell are required for an ally spirit to learn a spell.

The last sentence states, and I quote, "after creation, the magician must learn spells for the ally, paying the usual Karma cost, as described under the Sorcery power, p. 118 ."

Going to page 118 and reading the Sorcery power, you then find this quote: "A spirit, however, does not need the usual tools and props of magicians. Neither does a spirit need a teacher or spell formula because it is always in tune with mana, the heart and source of magic." The only thing that's required is the time to learn the spell and the Karma for it.

For Ally Spirits, the conjurer need merely supply the Karma and share the time with the spirit as it learns the spell. The only downfall is that a newly created Ally Spirit doesn't get a free spell from an aspected conjurer because an aspected conjurer has no spell for it to gain for free; a special trait of Ally Spirits.

Thanks for forcing me to read up on it. Clears a lot of problems and questions up.
Zazen
Holy crap, I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole. I can only imagine the immense size this thread could achieve with such delicious looking bait.

So do what you like. Ally spirits won't use rules for free spirits in my games, though.
Ol' Scratch
You're the one who referenced it and wanted to stick to canon.
Sphynx
QUOTE (Zazen)
QUOTE (Sphynx @ Dec 6 2003, 04:20 AM)
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 6 2003, 05:48 AM)
Should conjurers be allowed to teach spells to their ally spirits even though they can't actively use sorcery themselves?

By Canon, at Ally Creation, you can give your Ally spells you don't personally have by writing it into the ally-formula.

How might he write it into the formula without ever having seen the formula for the spell in the first place? nyahnyah.gif

You know, although it states that the Ally would have a Sorcery skill equal to the Conjurers, it never says anything about the needing a Sorcery roll to add a formulae into a Ally Formula. You know why? Because you don't need Sorcery to add a 'spell' to an Ally formula, only to add the Sorcery skill. You're not writing a spell here, you're adjusting the personification of mana (Ie: a spirit).

So, to answer your question more clearly, he's not writing a spell formula into the ally formula, he's writing an ally formula that knows a spell (or 50). No matter how you decide to twist the context, it will still be Canon that a Conjurer can write a spell into an Ally Formula without having the spell formula, or the spell.

Sphynx
Bearclaw
So, you guys are saying that not only can a conjurer summon an ally at character creation, it can cast spells and provide spell defense too?
Sphynx
Yes, that's exactly what we're saying. wink.gif But remember, you pay force points in spell points, so just how many spells are you going to be able to teach it, and are you willing to learn Sorcery at Char-Gen for your Ally, since you'll never be able to use your Sorcery skill for anything else? Highest Force you could start with is force 4 for 30 of your 50 karma cap. A few Force 4 spells, and spell defense for a spirit that's little more than Cannon Fodder in some games (based on that Force).

Sphynx
Fortune
QUOTE (mfb)
even a mundane can learn magical skills, as evidenced by multiple accounts in SR during the Awakening of magical rituals suddenly having effect.

Not according to SR3. Mundanes can learn knowledge skills related to magic, but to learn Active Magic skills requires at least a Magic Attribute of 1. Those accounts of rituals suddenly working are because the practitioner actually had a Magic Rating, even if it wasn't much use before the awakening.
QUOTE (Saintgrimm)
I'd also like to point out that MiTS talks about Mundanes who design spells that work very well. They just cannot cast and test them.

Designing spells does not require knowledge of Active Magic skills, but is covered under the Spell Design knowledge skill.
mfb
page number, fortune? i've looked all through SR3, and nowhere do i see a restriction on learning skills.

edit: can't find anything in MitS, either.
Ol' Scratch
The only restriction is that you have to use the Sorcery active skill to learn a spell. To have Sorcery, you have to have a Magic of 1. It's a ridiculous rule, but I do understand why they did it (for simplicity's sake) -- they just failed to see the implications.

At the very least, you should be able to default to Spell Design or Sorcery Background to learn a spell. There's absolutely no reason for it to be restricted to magicians, even if it serves no real purpose for anyone but a magician to learn them.
mfb
where's it say you need a magic of 1 to have sorcery? like i said, the only places i see that talk about it say use.
mfb
where's it say you need a magic of 1 to have sorcery? like i said, the only places i see that talk about it say use.
Ol' Scratch
In the skill description in the Skills chapter. SR3 p. 87.
mfb
ack. jesus, how'd i miss that?
Ol' Scratch
If you think that's weird, check out the bit about what happens when you burn-out and hit Magic 0. SR3 p. 160, last paragraph of "Magic Loss."
mfb
...that's so wrong.
Xirces
QUOTE (mfb)
where's it say you need a magic of 1 to have sorcery? like i said, the only places i see that talk about it say use.

That's a previous version rule - the lack of knowledge skills meant that anybody could have the magical skills, but treat them just like knowledge skills and not actually be able to use them. Without close reading I'd probably have thought the same thing (not that I'd want a character with zero magic wasting points on sorcery).

I'd probably overrule that (and the burn-out) rule and make them keep it, with the background skill at the appropriate level, rather than the (presumably) higher rated active skill
Fortune
QUOTE (Xirces)
That's a previous version rule

Sorry, but it is not a rule from a previous version. As Doc pointed out, you can find the rule in the SR3 Core rulebook, on page 160.
Cain
QUOTE (Zazen @ Dec 6 2003, 10:46 AM)
I asked how the conjurer could write a spell into the formula of his ally without ever having seen the spell formula in the first place. According to Sphynx's interpretation, you simply pay karma and knowledge of the spell descends from heaven. There's no mention that spell formulae are required at all (because the spells are supposed to come from the conjurers spell list in the first place).

Look at it this way. Do you demand that all spellcasters buy the spell formulas for the spells on their list? Are they even required to?

No? Well, then, why should allies be any different? If a mage doesn't need a formula to start with, then the ally doesn't, either.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cain)
Look at it this way. Do you demand that all spellcasters buy the spell formulas for the spells on their list? Are they even required to?

If they are learning it in-game (ie. after chargen), I do. They either buy a the spell formula, or create it themselves, but the presence of a formula is necessary for the mage or shaman to learn the spell.
Ol' Scratch
And, as previously stated and referenced in MitS, spirits -- both Free and Ally -- don't need a formula. They just have to spend the time (and in an Ally's case, that means the Conjurer has to spend the time with them) and Karma (and in the Ally's case, that Karma comes from the Conjurer) to learn a spell. They specifically do not need an instructor or a formula.
Fortune
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
And, as previously stated and referenced in MitS, spirits -- both Free and Ally -- don't need a formula. They just have to spend the time (and in an Ally's case, that means the Conjurer has to spend the time with them) and Karma (and in the Ally's case, that Karma comes from the Conjurer) to learn a spell. They specifically do not need an instructor or a formula.

And if you read my post, it specifically answers a question about mages. smile.gif

Be that as it may, I believe that the canon rules state that the Spirit doesn't need the formula because it specifically states that the summoner learns the spell for it. Nowhere does it state that the Spirit's master does not need a formula to learn a spell, only that the Spirit itself doesn't need it.
Sphynx
QUOTE (Fortune)
Be that as it may, I believe that the canon rules state that the Spirit doesn't need the formula because it specifically states that the summoner learns the spell for it. Nowhere does it state that the Spirit's master does not need a formula to learn a spell, only that the Spirit itself doesn't need it.

Says that for post-creation, not pre-creation. At Ally Creation, no spell has to be 'learned' and no formula is required to write a spell into the Ally formula.

Sphynx
Fortune
As far as I knew, that was what we were discussing. Cain replied to Zazen about paying Karma to learn spells, which is post-creation.
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