Throwing oil on the fire:
Stricktly speaking conjuring adepts cannot use the enchanting skill either.
Most of this discussion is the main reason why so many house rules exist for SR magic. I have a lot of HRs for aspected magicians to encourage players to limit themselves.
Has anyone played a conjuror who had more than one ally spirit?
Full Version: Conjuring adepts and allies
Huh? Where does it say that a Conjuror can't have Enchanting, musta missed that one....?
Sphynx
Sphynx
Neither can sorcerors. They are aspected for one skill only. Moving along to totem aspected magicians, to the best of my recolection only Creator gives a bonus to enchanting allowing them to use the skill. Also there is a voudoo aspect that I can't recall the name of that allows the use of enchanting.
In the SR3 book it states to the effect: Conjurors can only use conjuring and sorcerors can only use sorcery.
There is no amendment to this rule in MitS. Going back to SR2 this was also the standard rule. Only Full Magicians have the ability to use all three skills. As far as I know the wording doen't prohibit learning the skill, only effective use. GM's could be nice and allow you to use it as a complimentary skill to your Talismongering Knowledge skill rolls.
In the SR3 book it states to the effect: Conjurors can only use conjuring and sorcerors can only use sorcery.
There is no amendment to this rule in MitS. Going back to SR2 this was also the standard rule. Only Full Magicians have the ability to use all three skills. As far as I know the wording doen't prohibit learning the skill, only effective use. GM's could be nice and allow you to use it as a complimentary skill to your Talismongering Knowledge skill rolls.
Mine doesn't say that. My book says:
| QUOTE |
| Conjurers can use the Conjuring Skill, but cannot use Sorcery. |
Doesn't say they can ONLY use Conjuring, so you'd have to go by what the skill says, and the only limitation I see in my description of Enchanting is Awakened with a Magic score of at least 1. I think you're wrong there boss.
Sphynx
Sphynx
As far as I know, even physads can use Enchanting - they're Awakened and they have a magic score. Of course, they might not have any idea about how to make a spell focus if they don't use spells, but I have no doubt they could make a bad-ass weapon-focus if that was their specialty...
Enchanting, just like Build/Repair Skills, are wholly independant from other Active Skills. An adept can make a Specific Spell Focus just as easily as a Weapon Focus. The same is true with other Build/Repair Skills; you don't have to have Computers to build a cyberdeck with Computers B/R. The skill includes all the skill you need (novel concept, huh?).
The only exception that I know of is Anchoring Foci, and even then you simply have to know the Anchoring Metamagic Technique. No additional skill is required and it's a notable exception to the norm (which is why they specifically mention it).
The only exception that I know of is Anchoring Foci, and even then you simply have to know the Anchoring Metamagic Technique. No additional skill is required and it's a notable exception to the norm (which is why they specifically mention it).
Yeah, okay, fair enough, even a physad could probably make whatever. But though I realize there are no rules really for it, would you trust specialty equipment designed and made by people who don't know a thing about its use? Somebody who didn't know the first thing about computers and how they work shouldn't be designing and building computers, either. They can put peg A into slot B or whatever (raw telesma A into orichalcum loop B?) but they don't understand why, so they can't really do the thing justice.
Damn, ain't I an old fogy. If so that really brings to task the existance of that voudoo apected magician that I still can't remember the name of. Why did they specifically mention they were able to enchant if all conjurors can? Especiall with all the negatives they heap on them. Carrying around an active focus is not my idea of an advantage.
Still lingering in SR2 sometimes...
Still lingering in SR2 sometimes...
Are you thinking of obeyifa? MitS says that they can create specially designed foci, not the same as going out of the way to say they can enchant. The fact that they can enchant is a given.
The thing is, they do know how it works, just like engineers know how what they're building work. They just don't know how to use it.
Do you really think the people who built your car are stunt driving dynamos?
Do you really think the people who built your car are stunt driving dynamos?
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| The thing is, they do know how it works, just like engineers know how what they're building work. They just don't know how to use it. Do you really think the people who built your car are stunt driving dynamos? |
No, but I think that the people who designed my car (which is what we're really talking about here - you can't just go out and get the blueprints for a focus, because every one is different, depending on the materials available, etc) knew how to drive a car and knew what it meant to have anti-lock breaks vs. non-anti-lock breaks, or 4-wheel drive vs. 2-wheel drive. They weren't stunt drivers, no, but they had to ask themselves what they think is important in a car, in their own driving experience. That's what makes a great car design. Physads (and conjurors) would have a much more difficult time designing something they haven't ever used and couldn't ever use.
Also, I do think that physads could make spell foci etc. I'm not saying they can't. I just think that they'd make ones that aren't as good as ones that magicians that can cast spells can make. Its such a nitpicky point its doubtfull that I would ever make rules about it, but I think it adds to the flavor of the game world, separates the products of any given enchanter apart from any other given one (among other things).
Ford (feel free to insert anyone else if you feel like nitpicking) certainly didn't know how to drive a car before he built his. Up until computers became mainstream, you could rest assured knowing that most of the techies repairing yours barely knew how to turn it on (and even today you're lucky to find one who has a half a wit about them). I doubt if most aeronautical engineers know how to fly those jet planes they're churning out on their CAD programs. They may know the theories behind it, and what someone else has to do to use them, but they themselves most likely don't have first hand experience doing it.
Just like Enchanters. That's why it's its own unique skill, and not one derived of from any others. You can't even default to it from another skill.
The Tech-Wiz archetype includes all kinds of Build/Repair skills without the actual skill to use them. I guess he's the last one you'd want working on your stuff, too, eh?
Just like Enchanters. That's why it's its own unique skill, and not one derived of from any others. You can't even default to it from another skill.
The Tech-Wiz archetype includes all kinds of Build/Repair skills without the actual skill to use them. I guess he's the last one you'd want working on your stuff, too, eh?
From the official FAQ:
| QUOTE |
| Question: Can adepts create foci? Would they use a hermetic library or a shamanic lodge? What about aspected magicians? Answer: There are many views on this subject and the printed rules are unclear. According to p. 168, SR3, "adepts do not use magical skills to perform magic." According to p. 40, MITS, "only the Awakened can learn Enchanting skill." Ultimately, this is the gamemaster's decision on whether or not s/he wants to allow it in his or her games. In the opinion of the developer, yes, adepts can learn and use Enchanting skill (as can aspected magicians). It is recommended, however, that adepts and aspected magicians be limited to enchanting only foci that they can use. An adept, for example, could create and enchant weapon foci, but not spell foci. Likewise, a conjurer adept could create and enchant spirit foci, but not spell foci. And so on. Most adepts would use a hermetic library, though the character's personal outlook may affect this. An adept following the Totem Way would likely use a shamanic lodge. |
That's so silly. I guess we should start requiring everyone with a Build/Repair skill of any type to have the base skill, too, else not be able to do anything with it, too. Might as well get rid of Background Knowledge skills as well; afterall, if you can't actually do it, you shouldn't be able to know how it works, either. It's insane.
It's bad enough you have to have a Magic Attribute of 1 for those types of skills, but it just makes a guy wonder how all those burnt-out maged-turned-Talismongers that all but makeup the majority of the industry manage to make anything. Afterall, they can't use any magical skills any longer.
But hey, at least they can still make fetishes and ritual materials without having to know how to use those.
It's bad enough you have to have a Magic Attribute of 1 for those types of skills, but it just makes a guy wonder how all those burnt-out maged-turned-Talismongers that all but makeup the majority of the industry manage to make anything. Afterall, they can't use any magical skills any longer.
But hey, at least they can still make fetishes and ritual materials without having to know how to use those.
On the bright side, it's the FAQ. It's an official suggestion, but it ain't canon. That's what we have, that there's no answer, and unless they release an errata you can rule however you want.
~J
~J
I could rule however I wanted either way, silly. 
No you couldn't. The now-jobless FASA rules-enforcement teams would come and break your legs. It says it in SR3. 
~J
~J
Bah. I have a katana and a dikoted ally spirit. I ain't afraid of those wussies.
Hey Doc, you got that right?
your Ally Spirit is dikoted, and you have a katana?
your Ally Spirit is dikoted, and you have a katana?
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Ford (feel free to insert anyone else if you feel like nitpicking) certainly didn't know how to drive a car before he built his. Up until computers became mainstream, you could rest assured knowing that most of the techies repairing yours barely knew how to turn it on (and even today you're lucky to find one who has a half a wit about them). I doubt if most aeronautical engineers know how to fly those jet planes they're churning out on their CAD programs. They may know the theories behind it, and what someone else has to do to use them, but they themselves most likely don't have first hand experience doing it. Just like Enchanters. That's why it's its own unique skill, and not one derived of from any others. You can't even default to it from another skill. The Tech-Wiz archetype includes all kinds of Build/Repair skills without the actual skill to use them. I guess he's the last one you'd want working on your stuff, too, eh? |
After having thought about it... You're definately right on some points there. Probably most aeronautical engineers have never flown a plane, etc. Dunno about Ford, et al. So I will actually probably do that differently in my games (not that its ever come up, but if it did...). I'll probably go against the FAQ suggestion on this one.
OTOH, I still think that design can benefit from a working knowledge of how to use something. Don't you think that if an engineer had actually used his products, he'd be better able to design things?
I think it's perfectly reasonable that people that are only in touch with the conjuring aspects of magic (for example) are limited to enchanting things that have to do with Spirits, being that's what they know, as opposed to the magical things they don't have a clue about.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| No you couldn't. The now-jobless FASA rules-enforcement teams would come and break your legs. It says it in SR3. ~J |
Wow. That explains a lot. I always wondered where Polaris and toturi worked...
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I think it's perfectly reasonable that people that are only in touch with the conjuring aspects of magic (for example) are limited to enchanting things that have to do with Spirits, being that's what they know, as opposed to the magical things they don't have a clue about. |
Yeah, but if you think about the Enchanting skill - you are going to learn all the theory that comes with it. Whether or not you can actually cast spells, if you learn Enchanting you get a tutorial on how to make things for people that do. You don't need to know why your foci do what they do, just that they do. I do think that a full magician could probably make a better spell focus, knowing what he knows, than a conjuror could, but I still think a conjuror could make one if he learned Enchanting.
Right.
A character with Spell Design doesn't have to have Sorcery in order to design spells. Because Spell Design includes all the knowledge and know-how you need to... that's right... design spells.
The same is and should be true of Enchanting. It includes all the know-how you need to create foci and everything else the skill entails, because that's what the skill is all about. Just like Electronics B/R includes all the know-how you need to build and repair any and all Electronics gadgets.
A character with Spell Design doesn't have to have Sorcery in order to design spells. Because Spell Design includes all the knowledge and know-how you need to... that's right... design spells.
The same is and should be true of Enchanting. It includes all the know-how you need to create foci and everything else the skill entails, because that's what the skill is all about. Just like Electronics B/R includes all the know-how you need to build and repair any and all Electronics gadgets.
So, if Enchanting has nothing to do with how the character interacts with Magic, why is a Magic Attribute of 1 a necessity?
I don't even pretend to understand that for the other magical skills any more than I do for Enchanting. Just in case you somehow missed that in this thread.
But it's requirement has nothing to do with any of the other skills anymore than Sorcery has anything to do with Conjuring, Centering, or Divining. It's Enchanting's requirement, and that's all it is. Likewise, it's the only requirement for the skill.
Feel free to read the actual description for Enchanting. It starts on page 39 of Magic in the Shadows. Your own magical ability has no bearing on it, beyond the idiotic requirement of a Magic Attribute of 1 or higher. By definition, any Awakened character with Enchanting is officially an "Enchanter" (p. 40). Not a "Sorcerer Enchanter" or an "Adept Enchanter." Just an "Enchanter."
It's a completely unique magical ability that any magician can acquire and use just by learning the skill. Period.
But it's requirement has nothing to do with any of the other skills anymore than Sorcery has anything to do with Conjuring, Centering, or Divining. It's Enchanting's requirement, and that's all it is. Likewise, it's the only requirement for the skill.
Feel free to read the actual description for Enchanting. It starts on page 39 of Magic in the Shadows. Your own magical ability has no bearing on it, beyond the idiotic requirement of a Magic Attribute of 1 or higher. By definition, any Awakened character with Enchanting is officially an "Enchanter" (p. 40). Not a "Sorcerer Enchanter" or an "Adept Enchanter." Just an "Enchanter."
It's a completely unique magical ability that any magician can acquire and use just by learning the skill. Period.
Just so you know, I'm not actually arguing that you are wrong.
It's just that, from a logic standpoint (and by default, in my games), I think that some sort of relationship between the character's actual Magic abilities (outside of Enchanting) and the types of items that he can enchant should exist.
It's just that, from a logic standpoint (and by default, in my games), I think that some sort of relationship between the character's actual Magic abilities (outside of Enchanting) and the types of items that he can enchant should exist.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| So, if Enchanting has nothing to do with how the character interacts with Magic, why is a Magic Attribute of 1 a necessity? |
IMHO, its because magic use is actually involved. You have to ground magic into the focus to make it work, even though you do it slowly enough to not take drain. And you have to have a magic attribute to channel magical energy.
| QUOTE (Prospero) |
| IMHO, its because magic use is actually involved. You have to ground magic into the focus to make it work, even though you do it slowly enough to not take drain. And you have to have a magic attribute to channel magical energy. |
Yeah, I can agree with that. That is why I think that the type of Magic a character can access should have some bearing on the types of Foci that he can Enchant.
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